Today I read a wilt-leaf abzan article, where wilt-leaf liege was considered a very good card.
This makes me wonder, what makes Creakwood liege an EDH-only tier card?
Shouldn't it be pretty good, especially with Grim Flayer?
And the fact that it makes 3/3 tokens?
The main argument I've heard in the past is, it's not bolt-proof. But I haven't seen a bolt in months.
If you mean in particular why isn't it a good card in this deck, I'd say that it's a four drop card that doesn't flat out win you the game. A lot of decks have been pushing out four drops, trimming Siege Rhino down to a two-of, give the pressure of the current meta. I wouldn't want a Creakwood Liege in my deck if I was playing against tron, I wouldn't want it if I was playing against any of the Death's shadow decks, and I wouldn't want it against affinity or eldrazi either. Siege Rhino gives you a Lightning Helix at worst, that plus something to trade with in an okay situation, and a clock at best. Creakwood Liege at worst is just removed and you wasted a card and four mana, in an okay situation he gives you one 3/3 per turn, and at best he makes your Grim Flayer a 4/4 or a 6/6 and at best he gives you one 3/3 per turn; I'd rather have a rhino in that situation. I'm interested to hear if anyone thinks there is a matchup where that would be useful in, however. Maybe the mirror or a mirror against the same archetype? But even then, there are higher value four-drops.
Creakwood Liege seems absolutely terrible, I don't even see how it's a consideration in the wildest of dreams. Wilt-Leaf Liege is miles better and still a massive stretch.
If you have 4 traverse already in your main, then I would think it would be a good approach, but you need to remember that you can only start chaining ghost quarters by turn 4 and the tron deck plays around 4 relics in the main + board and will most likely bring them in against a tarmgoyf deck.
But if you are on a traverse deck, having one Ramunap really doesn't put that much of a strain on your sideboard. I would say do play him as a one of, but don't expect this to destroy the tron deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Alright...I've had it with Tron. My local meta is full of Tron decks...seriously considering 4 Ghost Quarter and 4 Surgical Extraction in the 75. Anyone have any better (non-insane plan like mine) for beating Tron?
Or even Archive Trap paired with 4 Surgicals and 4 Extirpate as well. Seeing their faces when I mill their lands and extract every land they own would be priceless.
See a Urza land, scoop and go to game two, and watch their faces when you put in your entire sideboard...
Alright...I've had it with Tron. My local meta is full of Tron decks...seriously considering 4 Ghost Quarter and 4 Surgical Extraction in the 75. Anyone have any better (non-insane plan like mine) for beating Tron?
Or even Archive Trap paired with 4 Surgicals and 4 Extirpate as well. Seeing their faces when I mill their lands and extract every land they own would be priceless.
See a Urza land, scoop and go to game two, and watch their faces when you put in your entire sideboard...
I'm completely rational about this...
Perhaps it's time to think about playing a different deck.
Alright...I've had it with Tron. My local meta is full of Tron decks...seriously considering 4 Ghost Quarter and 4 Surgical Extraction in the 75. Anyone have any better (non-insane plan like mine) for beating Tron?
Or even Archive Trap paired with 4 Surgicals and 4 Extirpate as well. Seeing their faces when I mill their lands and extract every land they own would be priceless.
See a Urza land, scoop and go to game two, and watch their faces when you put in your entire sideboard...
I'm completely rational about this...
Instead of making a terrible Abzan shell, why not play literally anything else?
What are the pros and cons of a traverse Build with flayer, and is it better than a regular Junk build with Flayer? just askin'
A Traverse build is built with Delirium in mind. Traverse the Ulvenwald and Grim Flayer both want it. Flayer is more in-tune with a Traverse build than a standard build although he is sometimes used in standard-ish bulds as well.
I am playing with this list based on the Kenta Harane deck from the last Vegas GP. I made many 3-1 in modern events, now I am working on the side board against death shadow and eldrazi tron.
Somebody here use all discard spell against shadow? I am boarding in +1 pulse + 1 Damnation +2 Gideon +2 Extraction +1 Spellbomb and move out -3 Inquisition -2 Rhino -2 Thoughtseize. But sometimes I miss the discard spells to remove 1 mana counters.
What are the pros and cons of a traverse Build with flayer, and is it better than a regular Junk build with Flayer? just askin'
A Traverse build is built with Delirium in mind. Traverse the Ulvenwald and Grim Flayer both want it. Flayer is more in-tune with a Traverse build than a standard build although he is sometimes used in standard-ish bulds as well.
Buuut I'm just guessing.
I am going to have to disagree with "sometimes"; Grim Flayer has become a maindeck card in almost all Abzan builds. For the regular Abzan shell, Top8 has 19 decks listed and only two of them don't run any Grim Flayers, with the rest running x3 or x4, that's about 89% main decking the card. MTGGoldfish has an average of x3 Grim Flayers for 95% of decks. The card has, in a lot of cases, replaced Dark Confidant, which only showed in three of the Top8 listed decks. I don't think you can justifiably posit that the card is "sometimes" used in these decks. The "ish" qualification of "standard-ish" also confuses me because the decks that are running Grim Flayer are the standard decks: Tarmogoyfs, Liliana of the Veils, Fatal Pushs, Inquisition of Kozileks, Lingering Souls', Abrupt Decays, etc. I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that a deck full of fetch lands, creatures, instants, sorceries, and Planeswalkers has a hard enough time getting delirium online as to make it not worth running one of the best BG cards ever printed, but that is assuredly not the case. Yes, a Traverse the Ulvenwald build has more options (really just maindecking Mishra's Bauble to get an artifact) to get delirium online more consistently, but that doesn't mean that Grim Flayer isn't ubiquitous in the regular build.
Yeah but is a Abzan traverse list better than normal jund?
(I am assuming you mean Junk instead of Jund, since that's what you asked about first and this is the Junk thread.) No, in terms of results it doesn't seem to be doing any better. If you break down the differences between the decks, a Traverse deck has less creatures and less lands, instead opting to put in main deck x4 Traverse the Ulvenwald and x4 Mishra's Bauble. The entire point of a Traverse deck is to get delirium and then go and fetch either something like Ghost Quarter or Bojuka Bog, or one of your big, scary creatures, like a Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet for example. Due to the fact that this archetypal deck is about answering threats, getting the game into topdeck mode, and then winning based off the value of your draws vs. the value of your opponent's, the hope is that being able to get a specific threat with Traverse the Ulvenwald will help you get out ahead even better than relying on a random top deck. Of course, there is always the possibility that you can cast a delirium Traverse the Ulvenwald even before you're top decking, which is very good. Some people who do like this deck have tried to play it more aggressively, trying to get delirium as fast as is possible and then rushing in with a lot of creatures, so as to never even get to a topdeck war.
The reason why I believe this deck is far worse than a regular Junk build is because that strategy just isn't as powerful as it seems to be. You are taking out lands from your deck to make room for a ramp spell, but that spell might not even be used to ramp in most cases since you want it to tutor a creature in the best case scenario. You also are taking away four spell slots to fit in Mishra's Bauble which, yes that card is amazing don't get me wrong, but I would much rather have those four slots in the deck be devoted to disruption or more creatures. It should also be stated that this deck is incredibly fragile to graveyard hate. If your entire plan is to get off a really fast delirium Traverse the Ulvenwald, what happens when they turn 3 Rest In Peace and you now have zero card types in your graveyard and at best three card types in your hand? What if you had delirium when that happened and were holding on to three Traverse the Ulvenwald for your next turn? You now have to completely rework your strategy for getting delirium online, and a lot of how it happens is based off of topdecking. Yes, graveyard hate hits the regular deck too, hosing Tarmogoyf sucks, but when your entire deck is based around delirium, having Grim Flayer, Tarmogoyf, and Traverse the Ulvenwald at suboptimal strength midway through a game is game-losing.
I would be remiss to not point out that there are people that have been successful with the deck, but the deck hasn't been nearly as successful as its sister decks, BG/x midrange and Death's Shadow. In a lot of ways, the Traverse build seems like it's halfway between a regular Junk deck and a Death's Shadow deck, but it doesn't have the same amount of grinding potential that Abzan does and it doesn't have the explosive speed of Death's Shadow.
That's how I see the deck and how I compare the two.
Grim Flayer is an all around great card and you do not need to build an entire deck around delirium for it to be good. Right now regular Junk builds use it more than they use Dark Confidant, that should be all the information you need. In my opinion, the sacrifices to the deck and game plan that you have to make to run a Traverse deck instead of a regular Junk deck do not make having a consistent delirium worth it, especially since there is more than enough support in the regular deck to get delirium on in most games.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Whatever the format, if BG/X midrange exists that is what I will be playing.
It should also be stated that this deck is incredibly fragile to graveyard hate. If your entire plan is to get off a really fast delirium Traverse the Ulvenwald, what happens when they turn 3 Rest In Peace and you now have zero card types in your graveyard and at best three card types in your hand? What if you had delirium when that happened and were holding on to three Traverse the Ulvenwald for your next turn? You now have to completely rework your strategy for getting delirium online, and a lot of how it happens is based off of topdecking. Yes, graveyard hate hits the regular deck too, hosing Tarmogoyf sucks, but when your entire deck is based around delirium, having Grim Flayer, Tarmogoyf, and Traverse the Ulvenwald at suboptimal strength midway through a game is game-losing.
Most of all, this. Going all-in on the graveyard with a Traverse build means you're very susceptible to hate. Winning when your Tarmogoyf has shrunk to a 0/1 and your Grim Flayer is an unimpressive 2/2 is difficult but not impossible. Playing with another 8 dead-ish cards is a losing proposition.
Doesn't mean you can't play a Traverse build to some success, just that you may experience high (negative) variance depending on the hate you run into.
Thinking about a one-of Golgari Charm in the side for Leyline of Sanctity and Rest in Peace, plus hosing Spirit tokens and Young Peezy, with the possibility of saving a threat from destruction as a corner case. I run a Rock build with Finks and Eternal Witness on top of my Goyfs, Snoozes, Flayers, and LtLH, so yard hate is even better against me. And Leyline's pretty good too of course.
Any commenters here have experience with this card?
Also, thoughts about a one-of Smuggler's Copter in the main to make Bob and E. Wit better threats, while pumping Goyf and delirium when it dies?
Also, thoughts about a one-of Smuggler's Copter in the main to make Bob and E. Wit better threats, while pumping Goyf and delirium when it dies?
Synergy isn't in the deck's gameplan.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The worst part isn't the pain, or the smell, or even the fear of death. It's hearing the clatter of bone on stone and knowing the bones are yours."BRG
Thinking about a one-of Golgari Charm in the side for Leyline of Sanctity and Rest in Peace, plus hosing Spirit tokens and Young Peezy, with the possibility of saving a threat from destruction as a corner case. I run a Rock build with Finks and Eternal Witness on top of my Goyfs, Snoozes, Flayers, and LtLH, so yard hate is even better against me. And Leyline's pretty good too of course.
Any commenters here have experience with this card?
Also, thoughts about a one-of Smuggler's Copter in the main to make Bob and E. Wit better threats, while pumping Goyf and delirium when it dies?
I always carry a copy or two of Golgari Charm in my 75. Lingering Souls are super popular at my LGS and things like Worship are also fairly regularly represented.
This year I have played about 3-months each of Abzan, Traverse and Rock, and my best results by far were with Traverse. That said, it doesn't feel like the most powerful of the decks, might just be the meta at the time. It might have been the most fun. I love this shell for its ability to adapt so quickly to changing meta.
Golgari Charm is a tough call because the enchantment mode is covered better by Abrupt Decay, and can hit tokens with Engineered Explosives and Maelstrom Pulse, and if you are playing your own Souls, then Zealous Persecution (doubles for GBx mirrors). I carried it when there were 2 Elves decks in my local meta. Its also a good card to hose Storm when they side in Warrens (and the occasional storm player still packs Blood Moon). I've never ticked the regen mode on it, for lack of opportunity and draw of a 1-of. Its certainly playable, but often doesn't make the cut.
Is anyone still playing GB? Played in a PPTQ today, lost to Titanshift in both swiss and quarters. I played 3/1 GQ/Tec edge split with just a single surgical in the SB. Might try 4 Tec edge and 2 Surgicals, though I suspect the matchup is just bad regardless.
From my limited experience with Rock, valakut is rough. Discard is really good here because they have limited card draw/selection. I also run a 1-of shadow of doubt for that extra surprise factor.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
The Rock WGB Traverse
EDH
RGB Karrthus
U Talrand // RGBU Vial Smasher/Thrasios
UBW Sydri
Karametra // Omnath
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
If you mean in particular why isn't it a good card in this deck, I'd say that it's a four drop card that doesn't flat out win you the game. A lot of decks have been pushing out four drops, trimming Siege Rhino down to a two-of, give the pressure of the current meta. I wouldn't want a Creakwood Liege in my deck if I was playing against tron, I wouldn't want it if I was playing against any of the Death's shadow decks, and I wouldn't want it against affinity or eldrazi either. Siege Rhino gives you a Lightning Helix at worst, that plus something to trade with in an okay situation, and a clock at best. Creakwood Liege at worst is just removed and you wasted a card and four mana, in an okay situation he gives you one 3/3 per turn, and at best he makes your Grim Flayer a 4/4 or a 6/6 and at best he gives you one 3/3 per turn; I'd rather have a rhino in that situation. I'm interested to hear if anyone thinks there is a matchup where that would be useful in, however. Maybe the mirror or a mirror against the same archetype? But even then, there are higher value four-drops.
BGObsidian Shards (Obliterator Rock)GB
BGRBuring Blood (Jund)RGB
BGR Bloodlust (Jund) RGB
BGW Mystic Stylez of the Liquid Swords (Junk Blade) WGB
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
1) http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=16819&d=304041&f=MO
The GW collected Company shell with Knight is just a much better shell for what you would want.
2) Traverse abzan is a thing.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-abzan-traverse#paper
If you have 4 traverse already in your main, then I would think it would be a good approach, but you need to remember that you can only start chaining ghost quarters by turn 4 and the tron deck plays around 4 relics in the main + board and will most likely bring them in against a tarmgoyf deck.
But if you are on a traverse deck, having one Ramunap really doesn't put that much of a strain on your sideboard. I would say do play him as a one of, but don't expect this to destroy the tron deck.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Or even Archive Trap paired with 4 Surgicals and 4 Extirpate as well. Seeing their faces when I mill their lands and extract every land they own would be priceless.
See a Urza land, scoop and go to game two, and watch their faces when you put in your entire sideboard...
I'm completely rational about this...
Perhaps it's time to think about playing a different deck.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Instead of making a terrible Abzan shell, why not play literally anything else?
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
A Traverse build is built with Delirium in mind. Traverse the Ulvenwald and Grim Flayer both want it. Flayer is more in-tune with a Traverse build than a standard build although he is sometimes used in standard-ish bulds as well.
Buuut I'm just guessing.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Somebody here use all discard spell against shadow? I am boarding in +1 pulse + 1 Damnation +2 Gideon +2 Extraction +1 Spellbomb and move out -3 Inquisition -2 Rhino -2 Thoughtseize. But sometimes I miss the discard spells to remove 1 mana counters.
3 Grim Flayer
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Siege Rhino
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
3 Path to Exile
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
3 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
2 Shambling Vent
1 Stirring Wildwood
2 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Damnation
2 Collective Brutality
2 Flaying Tendrils
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
I am going to have to disagree with "sometimes"; Grim Flayer has become a maindeck card in almost all Abzan builds. For the regular Abzan shell, Top8 has 19 decks listed and only two of them don't run any Grim Flayers, with the rest running x3 or x4, that's about 89% main decking the card. MTGGoldfish has an average of x3 Grim Flayers for 95% of decks. The card has, in a lot of cases, replaced Dark Confidant, which only showed in three of the Top8 listed decks. I don't think you can justifiably posit that the card is "sometimes" used in these decks. The "ish" qualification of "standard-ish" also confuses me because the decks that are running Grim Flayer are the standard decks: Tarmogoyfs, Liliana of the Veils, Fatal Pushs, Inquisition of Kozileks, Lingering Souls', Abrupt Decays, etc. I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that a deck full of fetch lands, creatures, instants, sorceries, and Planeswalkers has a hard enough time getting delirium online as to make it not worth running one of the best BG cards ever printed, but that is assuredly not the case. Yes, a Traverse the Ulvenwald build has more options (really just maindecking Mishra's Bauble to get an artifact) to get delirium online more consistently, but that doesn't mean that Grim Flayer isn't ubiquitous in the regular build.
(I am assuming you mean Junk instead of Jund, since that's what you asked about first and this is the Junk thread.) No, in terms of results it doesn't seem to be doing any better. If you break down the differences between the decks, a Traverse deck has less creatures and less lands, instead opting to put in main deck x4 Traverse the Ulvenwald and x4 Mishra's Bauble. The entire point of a Traverse deck is to get delirium and then go and fetch either something like Ghost Quarter or Bojuka Bog, or one of your big, scary creatures, like a Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet for example. Due to the fact that this archetypal deck is about answering threats, getting the game into topdeck mode, and then winning based off the value of your draws vs. the value of your opponent's, the hope is that being able to get a specific threat with Traverse the Ulvenwald will help you get out ahead even better than relying on a random top deck. Of course, there is always the possibility that you can cast a delirium Traverse the Ulvenwald even before you're top decking, which is very good. Some people who do like this deck have tried to play it more aggressively, trying to get delirium as fast as is possible and then rushing in with a lot of creatures, so as to never even get to a topdeck war.
The reason why I believe this deck is far worse than a regular Junk build is because that strategy just isn't as powerful as it seems to be. You are taking out lands from your deck to make room for a ramp spell, but that spell might not even be used to ramp in most cases since you want it to tutor a creature in the best case scenario. You also are taking away four spell slots to fit in Mishra's Bauble which, yes that card is amazing don't get me wrong, but I would much rather have those four slots in the deck be devoted to disruption or more creatures. It should also be stated that this deck is incredibly fragile to graveyard hate. If your entire plan is to get off a really fast delirium Traverse the Ulvenwald, what happens when they turn 3 Rest In Peace and you now have zero card types in your graveyard and at best three card types in your hand? What if you had delirium when that happened and were holding on to three Traverse the Ulvenwald for your next turn? You now have to completely rework your strategy for getting delirium online, and a lot of how it happens is based off of topdecking. Yes, graveyard hate hits the regular deck too, hosing Tarmogoyf sucks, but when your entire deck is based around delirium, having Grim Flayer, Tarmogoyf, and Traverse the Ulvenwald at suboptimal strength midway through a game is game-losing.
I would be remiss to not point out that there are people that have been successful with the deck, but the deck hasn't been nearly as successful as its sister decks, BG/x midrange and Death's Shadow. In a lot of ways, the Traverse build seems like it's halfway between a regular Junk deck and a Death's Shadow deck, but it doesn't have the same amount of grinding potential that Abzan does and it doesn't have the explosive speed of Death's Shadow.
That's how I see the deck and how I compare the two.
Grim Flayer is an all around great card and you do not need to build an entire deck around delirium for it to be good. Right now regular Junk builds use it more than they use Dark Confidant, that should be all the information you need. In my opinion, the sacrifices to the deck and game plan that you have to make to run a Traverse deck instead of a regular Junk deck do not make having a consistent delirium worth it, especially since there is more than enough support in the regular deck to get delirium on in most games.
BGObsidian Shards (Obliterator Rock)GB
BGRBuring Blood (Jund)RGB
BGR Bloodlust (Jund) RGB
BGW Mystic Stylez of the Liquid Swords (Junk Blade) WGB
Most of all, this. Going all-in on the graveyard with a Traverse build means you're very susceptible to hate. Winning when your Tarmogoyf has shrunk to a 0/1 and your Grim Flayer is an unimpressive 2/2 is difficult but not impossible. Playing with another 8 dead-ish cards is a losing proposition.
Doesn't mean you can't play a Traverse build to some success, just that you may experience high (negative) variance depending on the hate you run into.
Any commenters here have experience with this card?
Also, thoughts about a one-of Smuggler's Copter in the main to make Bob and E. Wit better threats, while pumping Goyf and delirium when it dies?
I always carry a copy or two of Golgari Charm in my 75. Lingering Souls are super popular at my LGS and things like Worship are also fairly regularly represented.
Smuggler's Copter doesn't seem a good fit in a Rock deck. Are you going to crew it with Tarmogoyf?
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Golgari Charm is a tough call because the enchantment mode is covered better by Abrupt Decay, and can hit tokens with Engineered Explosives and Maelstrom Pulse, and if you are playing your own Souls, then Zealous Persecution (doubles for GBx mirrors). I carried it when there were 2 Elves decks in my local meta. Its also a good card to hose Storm when they side in Warrens (and the occasional storm player still packs Blood Moon). I've never ticked the regen mode on it, for lack of opportunity and draw of a 1-of. Its certainly playable, but often doesn't make the cut.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/757004#paper
Aside from being a little heavy on cards for a control / midrange mirror it looks ok to me. What cards in particular did you want explanation on?
WGB Traverse