I mean, I don't think any GBx deck really likes seeing a resolved planeswalker.
I'm staying very far away from GBx decks the next couple of weeks while people experiment. I'm sure Saffron Oliver will create a Gideon Deck that catches on to the FNM level for a bit
True, but lately Abzan's been playing 2 Abrupt Decay and 2 Maelstrom Pulse, and Rock tends to go up to three Decays. U/W Control (generally) plays a total of 4 Planeswalkers in the main, 3 of which are Gideons. The deck can't really afford to drop Jace, Architect of Thought because he's an important part of their plan against Lingering Souls, and they can only play so many 4+ drop win conditions. I just don't think it's that big a concern, we have the tools to answer those cards and those tools are good against some of the other top decks in the format.
I think double Liliana is a very big deal and I'm really looking forward to testing with a higher number of them.
It's a bit slow against graveyard decks. Without the mana requirements and changing the template to "up to two cards" I would have tested it but this card doesn't look good enough.
True, but lately Abzan's been playing 2 Abrupt Decay and 2 Maelstrom Pulse, and Rock tends to go up to three Decays. U/W Control (generally) plays a total of 4 Planeswalkers in the main, 3 of which are Gideons. The deck can't really afford to drop Jace, Architect of Thought because he's an important part of their plan against Lingering Souls, and they can only play so many 4+ drop win conditions. I just don't think it's that big a concern, we have the tools to answer those cards and those tools are good against some of the other top decks in the format.
I think double Liliana is a very big deal and I'm really looking forward to testing with a higher number of them.
I hope you're right
By all means I'd be excited if Jund just decided to replace the K-Commands for 2 LTLH or something and it makes a difference. We'll see. I was playing Abzan on mtgo yesterday and just wasn't having fun, I wanted it to be jund, but jund sucks right now.
What do you think about Deadeye Tracker?
I think against graveyard based decks he is maybe better than Ooze and the card draw/selection seems nice too.
But on the other hand exiling two cards is bad for our goyfs.
Too slow, and he has to tap. The life gain from Ooze is also not irrelevant.
If this card were 1 black to eat gy, no need to tap, then we'd be talking for sure.
True, but lately Abzan's been playing 2 Abrupt Decay and 2 Maelstrom Pulse, and Rock tends to go up to three Decays. U/W Control (generally) plays a total of 4 Planeswalkers in the main, 3 of which are Gideons. The deck can't really afford to drop Jace, Architect of Thought because he's an important part of their plan against Lingering Souls, and they can only play so many 4+ drop win conditions. I just don't think it's that big a concern, we have the tools to answer those cards and those tools are good against some of the other top decks in the format.
I think double Liliana is a very big deal and I'm really looking forward to testing with a higher number of them.
I hope you're right
By all means I'd be excited if Jund just decided to replace the K-Commands for 2 LTLH or something and it makes a difference. We'll see. I was playing Abzan on mtgo yesterday and just wasn't having fun, I wanted it to be jund, but jund sucks right now.
I agree, they only play 4 no more than 5. With that Gideon of the Trials will be much better now.
As for The Rock, Last Hope is good but only as in certain match ups. So i doubt she will be played more of 3-1 or 3-2 at most split in favor of veil in the 75.
True, but lately Abzan's been playing 2 Abrupt Decay and 2 Maelstrom Pulse, and Rock tends to go up to three Decays. U/W Control (generally) plays a total of 4 Planeswalkers in the main, 3 of which are Gideons. The deck can't really afford to drop Jace, Architect of Thought because he's an important part of their plan against Lingering Souls, and they can only play so many 4+ drop win conditions. I just don't think it's that big a concern, we have the tools to answer those cards and those tools are good against some of the other top decks in the format.
I think double Liliana is a very big deal and I'm really looking forward to testing with a higher number of them.
I hope you're right
By all means I'd be excited if Jund just decided to replace the K-Commands for 2 LTLH or something and it makes a difference. We'll see. I was playing Abzan on mtgo yesterday and just wasn't having fun, I wanted it to be jund, but jund sucks right now.
I've been on B/G rock lately because I really just can't stand Abzan, and I think B/G is better positioned than Jund right now because it gets to run multiple Ghost Quarter/Tec Edge. My biggest issue has been with swarm decks, where Abzan can chump with souls tokens and Jund just has enough removal to grind through them, and that's where I'm looking forward to having more copies of Liliana, the Last Hope. B/G feels like it has so much card advantage baked into it's creatures already (Dark Confidant, Tireless Tracker, Kitchen Finks, Eternal Witness), so being able to recur them is also very appealing. I've also really liked how much more resilient B/G is against graveyard hate than Abzan.
True, but lately Abzan's been playing 2 Abrupt Decay and 2 Maelstrom Pulse, and Rock tends to go up to three Decays. U/W Control (generally) plays a total of 4 Planeswalkers in the main, 3 of which are Gideons. The deck can't really afford to drop Jace, Architect of Thought because he's an important part of their plan against Lingering Souls, and they can only play so many 4+ drop win conditions. I just don't think it's that big a concern, we have the tools to answer those cards and those tools are good against some of the other top decks in the format.
I think double Liliana is a very big deal and I'm really looking forward to testing with a higher number of them.
I hope you're right
By all means I'd be excited if Jund just decided to replace the K-Commands for 2 LTLH or something and it makes a difference. We'll see. I was playing Abzan on mtgo yesterday and just wasn't having fun, I wanted it to be jund, but jund sucks right now.
I've been on B/G rock lately because I really just can't stand Abzan, and I think B/G is better positioned than Jund right now because it gets to run multiple Ghost Quarter/Tec Edge. My biggest issue has been with swarm decks, where Abzan can chump with souls tokens and Jund just has enough removal to grind through them, and that's where I'm looking forward to having more copies of Liliana, the Last Hope. B/G feels like it has so much card advantage baked into it's creatures already (Dark Confidant, Tireless Tracker, Kitchen Finks, Eternal Witness), so being able to recur them is also very appealing. I've also really liked how much more resilient B/G is against graveyard hate than Abzan.
I have been doing well with BG Rock. All of your observations are accurate.
I prefer GQ to tec edge bc the GQ hits tron lands/Etenple when it matters and it also allows me to hit my own lands against a blood moon that's about to be cast or fetch a basic with a tireless tracker out. Tec edge is only really better in the control matchups.
As for your problems with swarms I always run a minimum of 4 sweepers. I usually prefer 1 sided sweepers so I have been playing with a mix of illness in the ranks, engineered explosives, creeping corrosion. I also like golgari charm, flaying tendrils, Lilliana of the lost hope (good against swarms) and if you need something more versatile damnation.
I'm on a 3/1 GQ/Tec Edge split for the reasons you outlined. I debated just going with 4 GQ but I found that for the matchups where I'm bringing in Fulminator, aggressively stripping my opponent's lands to take them off certain cards/colors was a viable way to win longer games, and it was easier with Tec Edge. Basically, showing an early Fulminator usually encourages people to fetch basics, but against decks that are only running 2-3 basics that quickly causes GQ to become Strip Mine. Eventually they have to start playing non-basics again, and Tec Edge helps to police how much they can develop their mana base at that point. I've found this plan to be particularly good against E-Tron and 3 mana midrange/control decks. Even against U/W control, I was able to stifle their mana development and make it difficult to cast some of the more mana intensive cards like Supreme Verdict and Cryptic Command. I also prefer Tec Edge against Valakut. It's possible that it should just be 4 GQ, but I wanted to give Tec Edge a shot.
I recently went up to 2 Damnation and 2 Flaying Tendrils in the side, but I haven't played against any of the decks I'd want them against since doing so. I've also considered swapping the second Tendrils for a Golgari Charm, but haven't pulled the trigger on it yet.
This is the overall deck, there's nothing particularly special about my build:
I'm on a 3/1 GQ/Tec Edge split for the reasons you outlined. I debated just going with 4 GQ but I found that for the matchups where I'm bringing in Fulminator, aggressively stripping my opponent's lands to take them off certain cards/colors was a viable way to win longer games, and it was easier with Tec Edge. Basically, showing an early Fulminator usually encourages people to fetch basics, but against decks that are only running 2-3 basics that quickly causes GQ to become Strip Mine. Eventually they have to start playing non-basics again, and Tec Edge helps to police how much they can develop their mana base at that point. I've found this plan to be particularly good against E-Tron and 3 mana midrange/control decks. Even against U/W control, I was able to stifle their mana development and make it difficult to cast some of the more mana intensive cards like Supreme Verdict and Cryptic Command. I also prefer Tec Edge against Valakut. It's possible that it should just be 4 GQ, but I wanted to give Tec Edge a shot.
I recently went up to 2 Damnation and 2 Flaying Tendrils in the side, but I haven't played against any of the decks I'd want them against since doing so. I've also considered swapping the second Tendrils for a Golgari Charm, but haven't pulled the trigger on it yet.
Great point regarding the tec edge/GQ split. I have shifted between 3-4 GQ and the mana feels better with 3.
In addition, are you running treetops, hissing quagmires or both? I love treetop but hissing makes the mana much better since we are playing colorless lands.
The instant speed of golgari charm is great. This is very strong against affinity manlands. The affinity matchup has been surprisingly difficult so I play 1 in the SB. The utility is also very nice and it owns BW tokens as a sweeper, enchantment remover and makes your creatures wrath proof.
I think I edited in my deck list after your response, but I'm currently on 3 Quagmire and 0 Treetop Village. Another change I was considering was dropping Tec Edge and a Quagmire for a 2/2 split of Quagmire/Village. I think that Treetop is a better card in a vacuum, but I'm concerned with the deck's ability to kill creatures that are 5+ CMC, and Quagmire can help to hedge against that. People also just hate to block it, which means that it can connect more easily than Village on a stalled board.
I was not prepared for how challenging the Affinity matchup would be, and it's one of the main reasons I'm looking forward to being able to squeeze a couple Liliana, the Last Hope into the MB. I wanted to test against it since going up to 4 sweepers, but I'm not against putting either a Naturalize or a Deglamer in the side as an additional hedge if it still feels dicey.
I've loved playing with Thragtusk again, it was my secret sauce when Bant Eldrazi was the top Eldrazi deck because it goes toe to toe with Reality Smasher and laughed at Eldrazi Displacer. Because E-Tron doesn't play Displacer it's not as good there, but it's still a beefy, resilient threat and it's also great at blocking Tasigur and the zombie fish. I also flipped both of them to Bob against E-Tron on back-to-back turns, which was very exciting.
In my experience Lilliana the lost hope is solid against affinity but not a game breaker.
Creeping corrosion is GG but could be too slow
Damnation is good but it can hurt you too and could be too slow
EE is very good
Golgari charm is very good
Flaying tendrils is solid
Thragstusk is interesting. I have not played with this card in a while but I might give it a try.
I have had the hardest time dealing with grixis control and grixis shadow. It makes me want to play 3-4 leyline of the void. I hate how bad the card is outside of your opening hand. Currently I'm running spellbomb instead which isn't a bomb but it's solid. I could use some other suggestions on this matchup.
I haven't registered a list with Thragtusk since early last year, but when I was looking for cards that could hedge against Burn, Eldrazi, and and go over the top in midrange/control matchups, the answer seemed obvious. I think the meta has slowed down enough to where playing a 5 drop in your 23 land deck isn't unreasonable, which was definitely not the case when Suicide Zoo/Infect/Dredge were in their prime last summer/fall.
I haven't gotten to test much against Grixis, but that seems like a matchup where Thragtusk would shine. Gaining a big chunk of life, going toe to toe with Delve threats, and either requiring two removal spells or chumping twice are all relevant, and they tend to only play 2 Terminate and 1-2 Lightning Bolt, so it can be challenging for them to remove. Basically just Thragtusk doing Thragtusk things.
Just because they can have both Gideon's out?
I'm staying very far away from GBx decks the next couple of weeks while people experiment. I'm sure Saffron Oliver will create a Gideon Deck that catches on to the FNM level for a bit
I think double Liliana is a very big deal and I'm really looking forward to testing with a higher number of them.
Legacy: UWR Miracles [https://deckstats.net/decks/44442/1092831-uwr-miracles-2]
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I hope you're right
By all means I'd be excited if Jund just decided to replace the K-Commands for 2 LTLH or something and it makes a difference. We'll see. I was playing Abzan on mtgo yesterday and just wasn't having fun, I wanted it to be jund, but jund sucks right now.
Too slow, and he has to tap. The life gain from Ooze is also not irrelevant.
If this card were 1 black to eat gy, no need to tap, then we'd be talking for sure.
I've actually been playing a 3/2 split of Liliana and Newliana for a brief period.
The idea of having both available makes me want to rock Big Game Hunter. Pitch, Madness, chump, return to hand. Rinse, repeat.
Probably a dream and perhaps only good in a few match-ups, but still, it would be epic to pull off.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I agree, they only play 4 no more than 5. With that Gideon of the Trials will be much better now.
As for The Rock, Last Hope is good but only as in certain match ups. So i doubt she will be played more of 3-1 or 3-2 at most split in favor of veil in the 75.
I've been on B/G rock lately because I really just can't stand Abzan, and I think B/G is better positioned than Jund right now because it gets to run multiple Ghost Quarter/Tec Edge. My biggest issue has been with swarm decks, where Abzan can chump with souls tokens and Jund just has enough removal to grind through them, and that's where I'm looking forward to having more copies of Liliana, the Last Hope. B/G feels like it has so much card advantage baked into it's creatures already (Dark Confidant, Tireless Tracker, Kitchen Finks, Eternal Witness), so being able to recur them is also very appealing. I've also really liked how much more resilient B/G is against graveyard hate than Abzan.
I have been doing well with BG Rock. All of your observations are accurate.
I prefer GQ to tec edge bc the GQ hits tron lands/Etenple when it matters and it also allows me to hit my own lands against a blood moon that's about to be cast or fetch a basic with a tireless tracker out. Tec edge is only really better in the control matchups.
As for your problems with swarms I always run a minimum of 4 sweepers. I usually prefer 1 sided sweepers so I have been playing with a mix of illness in the ranks, engineered explosives, creeping corrosion. I also like golgari charm, flaying tendrils, Lilliana of the lost hope (good against swarms) and if you need something more versatile damnation.
What have you been using?
I recently went up to 2 Damnation and 2 Flaying Tendrils in the side, but I haven't played against any of the decks I'd want them against since doing so. I've also considered swapping the second Tendrils for a Golgari Charm, but haven't pulled the trigger on it yet.
This is the overall deck, there's nothing particularly special about my build:
4x Blooming Marsh
2x Forest
3x Ghost Quarter
3x Hissing Quagmire
1x Marsh Flats
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Swamp
1x Tectonic Edge
4x Verdant Catacombs
Planeswalker (4)
4x Liliana of the Veil
Creature (16)
4x Dark Confidant
2x Eternal Witness
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Collective Brutality
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Thoughtseize
Instant (8)
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Fatal Push
1x Go for the Throat
2x Collective Brutality
2x Damnation
2x Flaying Tendrils
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Thragtusk
Great point regarding the tec edge/GQ split. I have shifted between 3-4 GQ and the mana feels better with 3.
In addition, are you running treetops, hissing quagmires or both? I love treetop but hissing makes the mana much better since we are playing colorless lands.
The instant speed of golgari charm is great. This is very strong against affinity manlands. The affinity matchup has been surprisingly difficult so I play 1 in the SB. The utility is also very nice and it owns BW tokens as a sweeper, enchantment remover and makes your creatures wrath proof.
I was not prepared for how challenging the Affinity matchup would be, and it's one of the main reasons I'm looking forward to being able to squeeze a couple Liliana, the Last Hope into the MB. I wanted to test against it since going up to 4 sweepers, but I'm not against putting either a Naturalize or a Deglamer in the side as an additional hedge if it still feels dicey.
I've loved playing with Thragtusk again, it was my secret sauce when Bant Eldrazi was the top Eldrazi deck because it goes toe to toe with Reality Smasher and laughed at Eldrazi Displacer. Because E-Tron doesn't play Displacer it's not as good there, but it's still a beefy, resilient threat and it's also great at blocking Tasigur and the zombie fish. I also flipped both of them to Bob against E-Tron on back-to-back turns, which was very exciting.
Creeping corrosion is GG but could be too slow
Damnation is good but it can hurt you too and could be too slow
EE is very good
Golgari charm is very good
Flaying tendrils is solid
Thragstusk is interesting. I have not played with this card in a while but I might give it a try.
I have had the hardest time dealing with grixis control and grixis shadow. It makes me want to play 3-4 leyline of the void. I hate how bad the card is outside of your opening hand. Currently I'm running spellbomb instead which isn't a bomb but it's solid. I could use some other suggestions on this matchup.
Mind sharing your list?
4x Blooming Marsh
2x Forest
3x Ghost Quarter
3x Hissing Quagmire
1x Marsh Flats
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Swamp
1x Tectonic Edge
4x Verdant Catacombs
Planeswalker (4)
4x Liliana of the Veil
Creature (16)
4x Dark Confidant
2x Eternal Witness
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Collective Brutality
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Thoughtseize
Instant (8)
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Fatal Push
1x Go for the Throat
2x Collective Brutality
2x Damnation
2x Flaying Tendrils
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Thragtusk
I haven't registered a list with Thragtusk since early last year, but when I was looking for cards that could hedge against Burn, Eldrazi, and and go over the top in midrange/control matchups, the answer seemed obvious. I think the meta has slowed down enough to where playing a 5 drop in your 23 land deck isn't unreasonable, which was definitely not the case when Suicide Zoo/Infect/Dredge were in their prime last summer/fall.
I haven't gotten to test much against Grixis, but that seems like a matchup where Thragtusk would shine. Gaining a big chunk of life, going toe to toe with Delve threats, and either requiring two removal spells or chumping twice are all relevant, and they tend to only play 2 Terminate and 1-2 Lightning Bolt, so it can be challenging for them to remove. Basically just Thragtusk doing Thragtusk things.
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Flayer
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Honored Hydra
Planeswalkers:
4 Liliana of the Veil
Instant/Sorceries:
4 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize
3 Collective Brutality
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Path to Exile
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
2 Shambling Vent
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Plains
2 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Blooming Marsh
1 Gavony Township
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Stony Silence
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Damnation
2 Mystic Enforcer
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
Just wanted to try something a little bit different than normal.
Mystic Enforcer is a bad Blood Baron, which is a pet card at best as is.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki