After playing 7 rounds I think cutting the rhinos and playing 2-3 nobles is probably right. Rhinos are neat, but they don't feel as hard hitting as I want and make some hands pretty clunky.
Probably cut a land to 22, add 2 nobles and either another Bob or another Flayer for a playset of one of them.
As far as the classic goes I played
Bant Eldrazi (1-2 loss)
Bant Spirits (0-2 loss)
Never played against this deck before, nor did I realize how much of trouble we had with flyers.
Burn (2-1 win)
UR Gifts Storm (2-1 win)
Bant Spirits (2-0)
Realized the mistakes I made, undervalued Bob a lot in this matchup and what cards matter.
Affinity (2-0)
UW Control (0-2)
This matchup feels impossible unless you land a LotV early or sphinx rev is a beating as are planeswalkers. He had Jace AoT, Elspeth, and gideon
After playing 7 rounds I think cutting the rhinos and playing 2-3 nobles is probably right. Rhinos are neat, but they don't feel as hard hitting as I want and make some hands pretty clunky.
Probably cut a land to 22, add 2 nobles and either another Bob or another Flayer for a playset of one of them.
As far as the classic goes I played
Bant Eldrazi (1-2 loss)
Bant Spirits (0-2 loss)
Never played against this deck before, nor did I realize how much of trouble we had with flyers.
Burn (2-1 win)
UR Gifts Storm (2-1 win)
Bant Spirits (2-0)
Realized the mistakes I made, undervalued Bob a lot in this matchup and what cards matter.
Affinity (2-0)
UW Control (0-2)
This matchup feels impossible unless you land a LotV early or sphinx rev is a beating as are planeswalkers. He had Jace AoT, Elspeth, and gideon
On the topic of Rhinos feeling bad, I've actually replaced my 2 copies with both Kalitas and Hero of Bladehold. Hero of bladehold herself has been performing really well for me so far.
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Decks I play:
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
I've been on the cliche Grim Flayer build for a while, but for those of you on Dark Confidant what do you think of it? Is it working better for you than Grim Flayer? I've been thinking of trying something like this:
I've been on the cliche Grim Flayer build for a while, but for those of you on Dark Confidant what do you think of it? Is it working better for you than Grim Flayer? I've been thinking of trying something like this:
My main concern is the speed of the deck making Dark Confidant too much of a liability. I love the pure and consistent card advantage he provides though.
I've been on the cliche Grim Flayer build for a while, but for those of you on Dark Confidant what do you think of it? Is it working better for you than Grim Flayer? I've been thinking of trying something like this:
My main concern is the speed of the deck making Dark Confidant too much of a liability. I love the pure and consistent card advantage he provides though.
I am actually running a 3/3/2 split of Noble/Dark Confidant/Grim Flayer and it has been working well for me so far.
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Decks I play:
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
I just 5-0'd with a 3/2/2 split of noble, Bob and grim flayer with the slot that would normally go to a third Bob going to a tireless tracker. Honestly grim flayer has been pretty okay for me. Sometimes he's good bears and card selection but he might just be replaceable with Bob's or a tireless tracker.
I've played with Tilsen's list and I'm not a huge fan of Flayer. There's times where he's great, but other times where you struggle to attain delirium and he just feels terrible.
I also tried a deck similar to FlyingDelver's with Bob's instead of Flayer, which also allowed me to drop the spellbombs for an additional removal spell and discard spell that I thought Tilsen's list needed. I enjoy the Bob deck much more, no need for delirium or having to swing in, just plop him and down and draw cards.
However, I still want to experiment. Has anyone here tried playing neither Bob or Flayer and instead used Tasigur and maybe something like 3 drop Anafenza?
Might not be worth it, but having the option for a "fatter" overall creature base sounds nice on paper.
I've played with Tilsen's list and I'm not a huge fan of Flayer. There's times where he's great, but other times where you struggle to attain delirium and he just feels terrible.
I also tried a deck similar to FlyingDelver's with Bob's instead of Flayer, which also allowed me to drop the spellbombs for an additional removal spell and discard spell that I thought Tilsen's list needed. I enjoy the Bob deck much more, no need for delirium or having to swing in, just plop him and down and draw cards.
However, I still want to experiment. Has anyone here tried playing neither Bob or Flayer and instead used Tasigur and maybe something like 3 drop Anafenza?
Might not be worth it, but having the option for a "fatter" overall creature base sounds nice on paper.
I'm still not hugely impressed by tasigur. I want my beat sticks to end games or put pressure on my opponent. Which is why I'm starting to love Hero of Bladehold more and more.
I do agree with Flayers being a solid 3/5 on the performance scale but I still have faith in him which is why I'm running a 3/2 split of Dark Confidant and Flayer.
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Decks I play:
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
The thing about Flayer is, and I always had that opinion, it is either really good or incredibly bad. With Bob you get what you expect. Consistant great card drawing what you can rely on.
Against Abzan/Jund side out all IOK/TS/CB for grindy cards: Gideon, Pulse, Damnation, EE, Dromoka's Command
Against Deaths shadow I would side out TS and CB (maybe some IOK) and bring in Pulse, Gideon, EE
For Bogles, you can side out LtLH, Fatal Push, some Path, Spellbombs, for EE, Pulse, TS, Damnation.
Ponza: Side out LtLH, Spellbomb for Pulse, TS, Dromokas command
UW Control: Side out Decay, CB, some Pushes for TS, Surgical, Gideon
Grixis Delver: Here you can either side out all discard and bring in value stuff, as postboard the deck often plays like Grixis Control which means grinding, or leave in some discard for their snapcasters. I would bring in Gideon and Surgical mostly.
The thing about Flayer is, and I always had that opinion, it is either really good or incredibly bad. With Bob you get what you expect. Consistant great card drawing what you can rely on.
This is exactly how I feel about Flayer. He's either really good (when you have delirium and/or when your opponent doesn't have a blocker) or very bad when you don't have delirium and opponent has blockers. With Bob you will always draw cards and get value out of him. Flayer much more depends on the situations and circumstances described above while Bob doesn't need all of this to work well-he just needs to live.
It's not all that bad. There's also spot removal that you can use to cover him, and because he has trample, he'll still get through combat damage and trigger even if you remove the blocking creature after blockers are declared.
The thing about Flayer is, and I always had that opinion, it is either really good or incredibly bad. With Bob you get what you expect. Consistant great card drawing what you can rely on.
This is exactly how I feel about Flayer. He's either really good (when you have delirium and/or when your opponent doesn't have a blocker) or very bad when you don't have delirium and opponent has blockers. With Bob you will always draw cards and get value out of him. Flayer much more depends on the situations and circumstances described above while Bob doesn't need all of this to work well-he just needs to live.
It's not all that bad. There's also spot removal that you can use to cover him, and because he has trample, he'll still get through combat damage and trigger even if you remove the blocking creature after blockers are declared.
While that is true, you still need two cards in order to pull that off. Sometimes things don't align that ideally you described. And at this point Flayer is very bad in my experience. It may just be preference, but I prefer reliable value instead. Bob just doesn't need to face opposing removal, in order to generate value. Flayer has to stick, has to be able to attack and not get blocked, and if you don't have removal for the blocker, the blocker must be either smaller than Flayer or you need delirium so that Flayer is bigger. Reaching delirium is also very "swingy" in my opinion. Sometimes it works out perfectly and you feel great, but sometimes you are stuck with 3 types in the yard and are sad. I am saying this because I play DSJ mostly, which can reach delirium much more easily than Abzan, but even in this deck sometimes it is a problem. That being said, its probably down to preference, since both cards get worse when the meta is full of removal and get better when there is less of it present.
I've been playing around with Abzan and BG Rock lists and wanted to know people's opinions on the pros and cons between them in the current meta. I've found that Abzan falls to Tron and Scapeshift and is worse against any sort of blue control, while BG Rock is worse against Ad Naus (especially not having Stony Silence post-board). Here's the BG Rock list I've been running:
As far as Abzan, I've been running the stock list with Nobles and Flayers, although I agree with the above discussion re: Bob being better than Flayer. In a few dozen matches I think I used Flayer's ability twice and triggered Delirium once, and every time I wished that I'd had Bob instead.
EDIT: Sorry I should specify that I'm playing on MODO, where there's a lot of Grixis control/Shadow, UW control, and Tron in the meta.
I've been doing a lot of thinking and testing regarding Grim Flayer vs Bob. I had been of a similar opinion of others here that Bob is preferred, but it bothered me that pretty much every list putting up results runs Flayer, and none that I could find run Bob. (Of course this could be due to people just copying lists, but it was at least alarming enough to warrant a deeper look I think.) So, I decided to take notes while testing, and put together a "Pros and Cons" list for each creature, directly relating to each other (So not noting things like their cmc or base power, since they are shared). Not sure if this will be of any use to anyone, but I figure its worth a look at least.
-Always cast able, great in multiples.
-Lets us dig 3 deep to set up draw steps, prevent dead draws, grows Tarmogoyf, synergy with Scavenging Ooze and Liliana, the Last Hope
-Discarding Lingering Souls to ability is effectively drawing .5 cards.
-Can be a 4/4, has trample.
-Allows more reason for mb artifacts, which benefits Tarmogoyf.
CONS
-Relies on gy, making gy hate more active against us than it already was.
-Has to deal damage to use ability.
-Requires Delirium to be more than a bear.
-Wants an additional card type mb.
-Draws a card every turn!
-Doesn't have to attack/deal damage to use ability
-Doesn't want additional card types.
-Great Synergy with Liliana of the Veil
CONS
-Not always cast able. Dead card in some matches, can be a dead draw in all matchups depending on game state.
-Almost always bad in multiples if the first isn't removed.
-Requires some build around, needs low cmc (Not a huge downside, our cmc is close to low enough anyways)
-Not as much potential to be a fast clock.
What I have noticed in general is that:
-In a match where Bob is good, its worst case is better than Flayer. Flayer's best case is better
-In a match where Bob is bad, Flayer is always better.
-Flayer seems better against Aggro decks, since Bob is risky. Also seems better against Big Mana decks, and decks in general where we need a clock
-Bob seems better in Midrange matches and Control.
-Both building restrictions are almost negligible, there are 1-2 card Bob doesn't want us running, and 1-2 that Flayer does. You would probably be fine not building around either (a single Tasigur, the Golden Fang with Bob, no Artifacts or Tribal cards with Flayer).
I'm still torn. Bob feels better to play, its effects are immediate and I just love drawing cards. However, testing against so many decks, I notice more and more the situations in which he is a terrible draw, and I think its possible that, though Flayer is less exciting to play with, that it might be correct. Hopefully the Flayer discussion isn't too overdone already, as I'd love to hear some more thoughts on it, and hopefully this wall of text wasn't too much
I'm currently on the 3/2 split of Bob/Flayer. I think it is the right balance. I usually would rather play Bob early, and if he eats a removal that is one less for Goyf. With two flayers I have noticed that delirium is active most of the time (especially with an early Bob in the yard).
Thank you! Yeah, strategically thinking about it.. it seems like it's impossible to beat them, unless they draw poorly. Maybe, for my Meta that consists of a few tron decks.. I could change the MB to better facilitate the matchup? Any specific recommendations for a slight tweaking to make it a bit more even?
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Probably cut a land to 22, add 2 nobles and either another Bob or another Flayer for a playset of one of them.
As far as the classic goes I played
Bant Eldrazi (1-2 loss)
Bant Spirits (0-2 loss)
Never played against this deck before, nor did I realize how much of trouble we had with flyers.
Burn (2-1 win)
UR Gifts Storm (2-1 win)
Bant Spirits (2-0)
Realized the mistakes I made, undervalued Bob a lot in this matchup and what cards matter.
Affinity (2-0)
UW Control (0-2)
This matchup feels impossible unless you land a LotV early or sphinx rev is a beating as are planeswalkers. He had Jace AoT, Elspeth, and gideon
On the topic of Rhinos feeling bad, I've actually replaced my 2 copies with both Kalitas and Hero of Bladehold. Hero of bladehold herself has been performing really well for me so far.
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Siege Rhino
Planeswalkers (4):
4 Liliana of the Veil
Spells (19):
4 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Fatal Push
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
4 Blooming Marsh
2 Shambling Vent
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Fulminator Mage
3 Stony Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Damnation
2 Collective Brutality
2 Kitchen Finks
Modern:
Death's Shadow Jund
Death's Shadow Grixis
Junk
Legacy:
Grixis Delver
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Siege Rhino
Planeswalkers (4):
4 Liliana of the Veil
Spells (19):
4 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Fatal Push
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
4 Blooming Marsh
2 Shambling Vent
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Fulminator Mage
3 Stony Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Damnation
2 Collective Brutality
2 Kitchen Finks
My main concern is the speed of the deck making Dark Confidant too much of a liability. I love the pure and consistent card advantage he provides though.
Modern:
Death's Shadow Jund
Death's Shadow Grixis
Junk
Legacy:
Grixis Delver
I am actually running a 3/3/2 split of Noble/Dark Confidant/Grim Flayer and it has been working well for me so far.
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
I also tried a deck similar to FlyingDelver's with Bob's instead of Flayer, which also allowed me to drop the spellbombs for an additional removal spell and discard spell that I thought Tilsen's list needed. I enjoy the Bob deck much more, no need for delirium or having to swing in, just plop him and down and draw cards.
However, I still want to experiment. Has anyone here tried playing neither Bob or Flayer and instead used Tasigur and maybe something like 3 drop Anafenza?
Might not be worth it, but having the option for a "fatter" overall creature base sounds nice on paper.
BG/x BG
I'm still not hugely impressed by tasigur. I want my beat sticks to end games or put pressure on my opponent. Which is why I'm starting to love Hero of Bladehold more and more.
I do agree with Flayers being a solid 3/5 on the performance scale but I still have faith in him which is why I'm running a 3/2 split of Dark Confidant and Flayer.
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
I'am new with the deck , in my lgs have some Jund , Death Shadow , Boogles ,R/G Ponza , U/W Control , Abzan , Grixis Delver
Against Deaths shadow I would side out TS and CB (maybe some IOK) and bring in Pulse, Gideon, EE
For Bogles, you can side out LtLH, Fatal Push, some Path, Spellbombs, for EE, Pulse, TS, Damnation.
Ponza: Side out LtLH, Spellbomb for Pulse, TS, Dromokas command
UW Control: Side out Decay, CB, some Pushes for TS, Surgical, Gideon
Grixis Delver: Here you can either side out all discard and bring in value stuff, as postboard the deck often plays like Grixis Control which means grinding, or leave in some discard for their snapcasters. I would bring in Gideon and Surgical mostly.
It's not all that bad. There's also spot removal that you can use to cover him, and because he has trample, he'll still get through combat damage and trigger even if you remove the blocking creature after blockers are declared.
While that is true, you still need two cards in order to pull that off. Sometimes things don't align that ideally you described. And at this point Flayer is very bad in my experience. It may just be preference, but I prefer reliable value instead. Bob just doesn't need to face opposing removal, in order to generate value. Flayer has to stick, has to be able to attack and not get blocked, and if you don't have removal for the blocker, the blocker must be either smaller than Flayer or you need delirium so that Flayer is bigger. Reaching delirium is also very "swingy" in my opinion. Sometimes it works out perfectly and you feel great, but sometimes you are stuck with 3 types in the yard and are sad. I am saying this because I play DSJ mostly, which can reach delirium much more easily than Abzan, but even in this deck sometimes it is a problem. That being said, its probably down to preference, since both cards get worse when the meta is full of removal and get better when there is less of it present.
4 Dark Confidant
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tireless Tracker
Instant (8)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Fatal Push
1 Go for the Throat
Planeswalker (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
Sorcery (10)
1 Collective Brutality
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Forest
4 Hissing Quagmire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Swamp
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Collective Brutality
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Damnation
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Surgical Extraction
As far as Abzan, I've been running the stock list with Nobles and Flayers, although I agree with the above discussion re: Bob being better than Flayer. In a few dozen matches I think I used Flayer's ability twice and triggered Delirium once, and every time I wished that I'd had Bob instead.
EDIT: Sorry I should specify that I'm playing on MODO, where there's a lot of Grixis control/Shadow, UW control, and Tron in the meta.
Grim Flayer
PROS
-Always cast able, great in multiples.
-Lets us dig 3 deep to set up draw steps, prevent dead draws, grows Tarmogoyf, synergy with Scavenging Ooze and Liliana, the Last Hope
-Discarding Lingering Souls to ability is effectively drawing .5 cards.
-Can be a 4/4, has trample.
-Allows more reason for mb artifacts, which benefits Tarmogoyf.
CONS
-Relies on gy, making gy hate more active against us than it already was.
-Has to deal damage to use ability.
-Requires Delirium to be more than a bear.
-Wants an additional card type mb.
Dark Confidant
PROS
-Draws a card every turn!
-Doesn't have to attack/deal damage to use ability
-Doesn't want additional card types.
-Great Synergy with Liliana of the Veil
CONS
-Not always cast able. Dead card in some matches, can be a dead draw in all matchups depending on game state.
-Almost always bad in multiples if the first isn't removed.
-Requires some build around, needs low cmc (Not a huge downside, our cmc is close to low enough anyways)
-Not as much potential to be a fast clock.
What I have noticed in general is that:
-In a match where Bob is good, its worst case is better than Flayer. Flayer's best case is better
-In a match where Bob is bad, Flayer is always better.
-Flayer seems better against Aggro decks, since Bob is risky. Also seems better against Big Mana decks, and decks in general where we need a clock
-Bob seems better in Midrange matches and Control.
-Both building restrictions are almost negligible, there are 1-2 card Bob doesn't want us running, and 1-2 that Flayer does. You would probably be fine not building around either (a single Tasigur, the Golden Fang with Bob, no Artifacts or Tribal cards with Flayer).
I'm still torn. Bob feels better to play, its effects are immediate and I just love drawing cards. However, testing against so many decks, I notice more and more the situations in which he is a terrible draw, and I think its possible that, though Flayer is less exciting to play with, that it might be correct. Hopefully the Flayer discussion isn't too overdone already, as I'd love to hear some more thoughts on it, and hopefully this wall of text wasn't too much
Thank you! Yeah, strategically thinking about it.. it seems like it's impossible to beat them, unless they draw poorly. Maybe, for my Meta that consists of a few tron decks.. I could change the MB to better facilitate the matchup? Any specific recommendations for a slight tweaking to make it a bit more even?