I am new to abzan, but I have played plenty of kiki-chord. Has anybody tryed abzan with collected company? And is abzan archangel of thune a thing, or it it subpar to regular abzan?
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I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
I mean, I think it would be unfair to call Abzan Company subpar, it was doing great before dredge forced everyone to side in 3 to 6 hate cards in the 75
Knightfall player here, looking to get into BGx now that fatal push exists. I don't really like brewing decks in an archetype that I'm unfamiliar with, but I'll have to wait some weeks until tournament results appear and I can copy something (it's not that I don't like brewing, is that brewing requires knowledge and I lack that)
Rants aside, this is what I've been testing https://deckstats.net/decks/2563/642065-bgw-rock
I basically made some tweaks to Maadask's list. Some games I wanted to be aggresive but had to keep a slow hand just because a mulligan would probably grant me something worse. Overall, it feels a bit awkward, don't know if it's the list or it's me being inexperienced. Any quick recommendations for this list?
Question about the archetype in general, what do you usually want out of liliana? when do you side it out? Of course when you want to go to a topdeck war she's great but what about decks like merfolk or burn? If someone could write/link me a "liliana for starters" that would be nice.
And quite the same with lingering souls. I've run this card in other decks (esper gifts) but here seems to have a different role. Is it just a great card with liliana/collective brutality or is there anything else that I'm missing? Casting it for three mana felt like a lot, granting little board stabilization, against all this decks trying to kill me fast.
LOTV is usually a card you sideboard out against decks with
A.) A lot of mana dorks who will just smile at you telling them to sac a target
B.) A super, super agressive creature swarm deck, so things like Elves, Affinity, Merfolk. Sometimes cutting all of them is wrong though, as LOTV is the only solution to killing Etched Champion outside of a boardwipe. Merfolk can still be crippled with a well timed LOTV and if they lack a manland, or you can kill the manland and drop her. Against elves, if you have 1 or 2 blockers, the elves player may not want to kill off their resources, and you choosing to discard is similar to her -2 sac effect, they're discarding creature cards, which can be a blow to them
C.) You drop LOTV if decks are more than happy to discard. For example, you wouldn't want to discard anyone's hand like dredge or 8rack
LOTV can shred a burn decks hand, and depending on the situation, they may feel pressured to kill her, wasting resources and keeping you alive
Lingering souls is THE most heartbreaking card to play against fair decks. You're playing a card that doesn't care about individual removal, and countering a lingering souls feels crappy, too. Your 1 card can be worth 2 of theirs, more even if they're desparate to kill the tokens.
Lingering souls can also stabilize you, let's say a creature swarm deck got some hits in, but you killed 1 or 2 creatures before turn 3, now you have tokens to chump block and possibly trade with them. It feels AWFUL.
Lingering souls also fly, you'd be surprised how often they can fly over head and chip at people. They can also be a serious clock if you draw 2 Lingering souls
Lingering souls can be discarded by LOTV, which means you essentially discarded half a card while your opponent traded a full card
You generally trim or cut lingering souls against non-interactive decks that you either need to race, or side in hate and discard
How many fetches should one run to enable Revolt for Fatal Push? Is eight enough to go with a play-set of FP? Rex currently rolls with only six fetches and that seems too few; however, the ability to roll with so few fetches and so little fetching and shocking is part of the Rock's appeal.
Does anyone else think one needs enough side-board removal to replace FP in match-ups where it will suck? I mean, four FP is going to cause a case of the feels-bad when playing against things like Tron and, to some extent, Eldrazi. I suppose sweepers would count for the replacement, but I don't like the idea of four removal spells that may be dead from the start. If I add W, I can run some Paths and not worry about FP so much. FP does seem like a card Rex needs.
This deck is incredibly low to the ground, lower than Jund, ignoring Tasigur and Bob's nobo combo. Tasigur is almost a Goyf 5 and 6 immune to Push. It also only has 7 cards that cost 3 cmc, and another 2 with Tasigur, that is a low to the ground cost that is only expensive in terms of Dark Confidant triggers.
I see some people cutting Collective Brutality, but I think that's the wrong move.
There could be some 3x Bob/3x Flayer instead, if people fancy it, or reverse Flayer as 4x and Bob as 2, if Tasigur worries them
I feel like this is a really good shell to operate off of, the deck honestly won't need to sweat about only having 3 mana, outside of it being a very late game or land destruction
You could change the mana a little to your liking, if you guys feel the fetches are off, and adding a 2nd Overgrown Tomb
I'm a little surprised how much lower to the ground this deck feels from 1 card being released, it's about the same as Jund's now, making Bob so much better
I think unfortunately Siege Rhino is going to be out, push is incredibly harmful towards him
If you feel super pressured by swarm aggro decks, you could cut the 2x flayers and add more removal, with some combination of path/pulse/decay
If dredge is still dominant, you could cut 1x Tasigur for the Anafenza
I don't think the noble hierarch builds will be the way to go once Fatal Push is legal in modern.
Tell me what you guys think and what an optimal build would look like. I didn't want to create a SB, but I'm thinking it'll most likely include
nobody believes in renegade rallier being maindeckable? brings back goys, bob, flayers, help to ramp. Also help helps bringing back stony or Rest in peace if opponent destroyed them, and a 3/2 not a bad body to apply presure.. and considering push will be everywhere isnt that crazy to think on renegade as the "push" solution
Hell no, it's not better than any card being ran right now
Yeah, pretty much this.
This deck isn't really the deck for tricks and synergy and stuff. It's gotta be a house on its own...and this card is not a house by itself. It requires some sort of set up for it to be ideal. Not much use for it here I'm afraid. I'm inclined to say eternal witness is probably a stronger card overall, yet hardly sees any play in this deck (let alone, in the format), so I don't really have any hopes for renegade rallier.
This deck is incredibly low to the ground, lower than Jund, ignoring Tasigur and Bob's nobo combo. Tasigur is almost a Goyf 5 and 6 immune to Push. It also only has 7 cards that cost 3 cmc, and another 2 with Tasigur, that is a low to the ground cost that is only expensive in terms of Dark Confidant triggers.
I see some people cutting Collective Brutality, but I think that's the wrong move.
There could be some 3x Bob/3x Flayer instead, if people fancy it, or reverse Flayer as 4x and Bob as 2, if Tasigur worries them
I feel like this is a really good shell to operate off of, the deck honestly won't need to sweat about only having 3 mana, outside of it being a very late game or land destruction
You could change the mana a little to your liking, if you guys feel the fetches are off, and adding a 2nd Overgrown Tomb
I'm a little surprised how much lower to the ground this deck feels from 1 card being released, it's about the same as Jund's now, making Bob so much better
I think unfortunately Siege Rhino is going to be out, push is incredibly harmful towards him
If you feel super pressured by swarm aggro decks, you could cut the 2x flayers and add more removal, with some combination of path/pulse/decay
If dredge is still dominant, you could cut 1x Tasigur for the Anafenza
I don't think the noble hierarch builds will be the way to go once Fatal Push is legal in modern.
Tell me what you guys think and what an optimal build would look like. I didn't want to create a SB, but I'm thinking it'll most likely include
You and I have come to the same conclusion. I've done some mild testing with various builds with our new toy and Dark Confidant is just an absolute house along with 1 mana removal spells. Here is the list that I've been testing so far.
1) Currently running 3 Blooming Marsh. I think this is the correct number since access to green mana early game isn't as important as having a good number of fetchlands to turn on Fatal Push
2) I have 9 fetchland which seems like the minimal amount we should run.
3) I still like Siege Rhino and we'll see how the meta settles if it's still good. If 4 mana is too clunky, I can imagine this slot becoming Grim Flayer again and going even lower to the ground.
4) 4 Fatal Pushes seem like too much. They seem like dead cards against a deck like Grixis where 4 Bolts in Jund can still go to the face. 3 seems like a good starting point IMO.
5) I have 1 Liliana, the Last Hope main. I feel like this is a flex slot that can be another Maelstrom Pulse, Collective Brutality, Abrupt Decay, etc. I figured since the creature count is pretty low, regrowthing creatures seems good. Not to mention, bringing back Siege Rhinos that have been Fatally Pushed is tempting.... Drain 6?
6) Gavony Township is my utility land slot. It has won me so many games and broken mirrors and I'm glad I can sleeve it back up. It's the card I've missed the most when I ran the Noble Hierarch version.
7) My sideboard is still from my old list. We'll see if there's any B&R changes and I'll post my updated list once the announcement comes out.
Overall, Push seems great and I'm glad I can run Dark Confidant in Abzan without being too clunky. What are people's thoughts?
Hmmm, I think you're right that 4 push could be too much, I'd probably add Gavony if that were the case.
I'll have to see, it could be a black bolt, and I might want to run 4.
Just played MTGO in the practice rooms, even though it's been a 1 of, Gavony has been an absolute house in my matchups tonight. The card is so impressive.
Flayer has been good, too. He didn't connect too much tonight, but he was such a must answer he lead the way to making my other cards safe
Gideon has been excellent in fair matches, he won me 2 rounds.
I would sooner cut the 2nd copy of overgrown tombs before the 4th copy of Bloom. Why is everyone in this thread so attached to 2x overgrown tombs and not the 4th bloom? I have not needed the 2nd copy of overgrown tomb in 40 something games. The only time I could see it being needed is against land destruction and merfolk spreading seas.
The curve between these two decks mainly only need 3 mana
I have to see if 3 or 4 pushes is the right call. I'm ok with cutting 1 LOTV with 14 creatures in the lineup
Sorry for double first but I have a question since my friend built Eldrazi&Taxes and now I'm wondering how Junk does against it. I've been playing Jund so far and it was really good against it but don't know about Junk.
What cards are good against it, how do you sideboard? I had those plans for Jund but I'm not sure about Junk and want to know since I'm switching to Junk.
Junk has a lot less to cut, to be honest, and I feel like there's less to board in
I'd bring in a damnation. EE has been very underwhelming against any form of tax decks.
It's hard to say without seeing a list
Most maindecks are already well equipped to handle them
Your removal hits everything you need it to, you don't want to cut discard like you do against death and taxes because of the janky combo, souls can be discarded to killing smasher without card parity
I wouldn't stress it too much, I'd cut like a lingering souls, and try to make it so that when Smasher comes down you're not too stressed about it.
I'd be curious to see if Fulms would be good, but I'm not by any means recommending that, that's something I'd want to test
Death and Taxes and any variant has a bad matchup against Gbx decks generally, Eldrazi and Taxes is no exception. Damnation seems like a no brainer concerning sideboard. There is not much to cut honestly, every card seems great against the mu, maybe grim flayer as he will have a hard time getting through a thalia without delirium.
Look at the card. Now back to Jace. Now back to that card, now back to Jace! Sadly, it isn't Jace, but if it stopped being a junk rare and became relevant, it could act like it's Jace. Crack some Worldwake. What do you have? You have a Jace, the card you wish this card could be like. Look again. THE CARD IS NOW A $75 BILL. Anything possible when you play Magic with Jace and not junk rares. This is probably spam.
Gentelman,
I went to Face to Face Open on Jan 7th in Toronto with 160 aprox players attendance. I ended up making top8 and we chopped the prize support (2250$).
Decided to write a report for you guys, mainly because I'm fairly active in this forum and I think among myself, Spiegel1987, Ayiluss, and KoDiamonds we might be some of the versed people to talk to about junk... Well that's the preface anyway.
*On the Draw [OTD] *On the Play [OTP]
Match 1 vs [R/U Agro]/[Suicide Blue]/[Kiln fiend/thing] Pre-Overview: I don't think this match-up is very hard for Junk, they play few creatures and we play a lot of removal with little protection. Important thing in my opinion is to kill thier threats quickly before they have a chance to manipulate the interaction and always be scared of Apostle's Blessing (Card is a one of?). Game 1 OTD: It was clear the player was inexperienced after I Inquisition Of Kozilek him to rip a Kiln fiend and on his turn two he rolls out his freshly drawnSpirebluff canal rather than the Scalding Tarn that I was aware of. He later found a Thing in the ice that blanked an early Grim Flayer but could not block a Tarmogoyf but I pathed it before it became a threat and allowed my grim to swing. Game 2 OTD: My opponents inexperience shows bigger when he casts a Young pyromancer triggers for 1 elemental and passes, I follow up Collectie Brutality which I cast for 2 modes escaating with lingering Souls (Kill young, look at hand) and see he has a Gitaxian probe in hand. Later in the game he casts GitProbe for life with 4 mana up and passes the turn- not sure if this is correct, are you hoping for runner-runner TiTI into Manamorphose+Manamorphose+ 2 other zero-1 cmc cards... not sure if that is a reality line. After the game we talk and he asks if he missplayed and find out it is his first ever 'bigger' (outside fnm?) event. Post-overview: Pathing the TiTI early on I think is fine given the board state, good chance you are going to have to remove it anyways, if it is blanking a creature you might as well remove it before it can block and get in for dmg.
1-0 (2-0-0)
Match 2 vs [Mardu removal]/[Mardu Spirits]/[Mardu Goodstuff.dek?] Pre-Overview: I've played this match-up before at events and it is really grindy but BGx always seems to walk out of the smoke after the clash, I'm sure its not hard to speculate why. Game 1 OTP: We trade resources throughout much of the game, more so my threats for his removal, I see that he is on a Nahiri the Harbringer, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn package after a mid game inquisition. Later in the game I decide to set myself up for a Shambling vent swing to kill nahiri if I top deck a land, which I did not do and end up letting his use his nahiri two more times than I had hopped, we battle out with lingering souls and eventually with the help of Shambling I take out the Nahiri, we slub back and forth for a while but he runs out of removal for my threats and Siege Rhino is a great card in the matchup. Game 2 OTD: He keeps in his hand removal which I felt was pretty weird but gets a timeley removal spell early game and rips away a curvedable threat, he controls the board state enough that when I get an advantage and swing with goyf he untapps and dropps Nahiri-kill-goyf, I sturggle battling nahiri time bomb while he runs out souls and chumps until hes able to ult nahiri and drop the Spag-monster on me. RIP. Game 3 OTP: This game is extremely long and it's hard to describe every interaction in length, we end up going to time in a back and forth slug-fest that leads me with superior board presence on turn 3/5 (his turn), he is at 11 life and I have Gideon, ally of zendikar, Knight Token, 2x Spirit Token, and a Shambling, he draws a blank and passes with a Shambling of his own available for activation. At this point on my turn 4 I need to rip some gas off the top for that Shambling or be forced to have the: "hey my board state is clearly superior do you want to concede to me?" conversation that no one ever says "yes" to in round 2. I draw my sideboard Fulminator Mage and begin celebrating as well as half the people behind me, play Fulmi, blow up his Shambling, activate Gideon and my own Shambling, swing for exactly lethal on turn 4/5 on turns. Huge top deck Post-Overview: During the early stages of one of the games I have the ability to roll out a threat in the form of Grim Flayer but I decide to activate and swing with a shambling vent on his empty board instead, it is met with a path and I am rewarded for my ling term thinking. The match will go long as much as you think it wont, so make long term investments and take incremental advantages while not committing too much to a board state, this match-up is heavily swayed by over-commitment into Damnation
2-0 (4-1-0)
Match 3 vs [Elves] Pre-overview: Not happy to see elves, match-up is not good for us pre-board and only slightly increases post board with a 1-2 of Damnation. My deck is tuned a bit (in the form of Liliana of the Last Hope and a 2-of Brutality) for early game interactions so I hope for a good draw. Game 1 OTP: I draw a good hand (close to the nuts) in the form of LotLH and a brutaity in my opener, I need a third land to stick the curve but it seems likely, I keep and Brutality a Llanowar Elves on my turn 2 to slow him down from the nut opener and remove a Chord of calling with the other mode, can't remember what I discared but it was a hard decision (was not something easy like a second lilly or a lingering souls), I see an Elvish Archdruid and 2xheritage Druid, which I did not realize then but I realize now that had I not removed the first elf I would be facing down a board containing all four creatures all of which are out of LotLH range because of druid. He plays a land + 'Draw a card elf'(cant remember name) and says pass, I stick a LotLH and ping it, his turn three he plays both heritage druids pass, I draw into removal play double threat and ping a druid, his turn 4 he drops the Archdruid and a llanowar, taps all three for an 'Elf that makes token elf'(Dwynens elite?), and says pass, I untap Abrupt decay the Archdruid, ping heritage, double swing. At this point the game is locked for me and I ride double threat plus lilly shennanigans to the W. Game 2 OTD: My opp mullligans to 5 and keeps a one lander, I have the option to roll out turn 1 noble, but choose to roll out turn 1 INKO instead because of the weak start hes having, I take his only reasonable play. Opp doesnt draw into a second land for three draw steps and I pull too far ahead in that time for things to matter much. Post-Overview: Don't hold up anything besides instants (and even then sometimes don't hold up instants) against elves, because they will do broken things at instant speed that drastically change the board state, it's hard to slow them down but you have to try, you wont win an 'I ignore you you ignore me and we race' game.
3-0 (6-1-0)
Match 4 vs [JUND] Pre-Overview: Feeling pretty happy another BGx player made it up in the x-0 division, and even happier still that it is JUND and not the mirror. I put my opponent on the fact that he is probably a better player than me so I need to take my time and possibly try and act dumb to tilt him by being 'beaten'/'got' by a player he feels is not at his calibur. Game 1 OTD: I don't think there were any notable plays or decisions in this game, I'm pretty sure it went 1-for-1, 2-for-1, 1-for-2, 2-for-2, lingering souls, win for me. Game 2 OTD: Was a ridiculous curve out for me, he runner-runner stuck Dark Confidant into Grim, into Goyf, and I runner-runner hit him with Brutality, Abrupt, Lilly edict, got value of souls on turn four lilly tick up, follow up rhino, he terminates says pass, I then start rolling out the other half of my deck (the threat portion) and he has no removal I guess because he kept a threat dense opener. I run away with the game. Post-Overview: The match-up is a grind fest but I think Junk is favored pre-board, and probably still post, although the matchup imporves with Night of Soul's Betrayal and blow out cards like Engineered Explosives and Damnation. I would say always slow grind and don't overcommit until you are far enough ahead to take a sweep and keep going, you dont want to not take an adv when you can but you dont want to overplay into a board flip. Play around Scavenging ooze in regards for souls rather than playing around Maelstrom pulse (given changing game-state information) it feels bad but you want your opp to blow out pulse on souls. Also mind gaming and personality strategies are an entire part of this game that players do not talk much about, this match is a good example of atleast 'trying' to mind game, but another good example: A player at my LGS likes to play LIGHTHING fast, so when I play against him, I slow the game down more so than when I play against anyone else, and it throws him off completely; think about these things.
4-0 (8-1-0) (top going into round 5)
...continue the rest after, getting tired of typing and quality of report is starting to slip.
How many fetches should one run to enable Revolt for Fatal Push? Is eight enough to go with a play-set of FP? Rex currently rolls with only six fetches and that seems too few; however, the ability to roll with so few fetches and so little fetching and shocking is part of the Rock's appeal.
Does anyone else think one needs enough side-board removal to replace FP in match-ups where it will suck? I mean, four FP is going to cause a case of the feels-bad when playing against things like Tron and, to some extent, Eldrazi. I suppose sweepers would count for the replacement, but I don't like the idea of four removal spells that may be dead from the start. If I add W, I can run some Paths and not worry about FP so much. FP does seem like a card Rex needs.
I would run 9 to start with. You can lower them at some point ot see how much the difference is. I am leaning towards 9 though. The thing is, revolt will generally not be that easy to enable, even with 9 fetchlands. I can see awkwards times in the future were we would want to kill a Eldrazi Displacer, Eldrazi Skyspawner, Finks or anything like that and simply can't because of missing revolt. In the end, bolt still is more versatile.
That brings me to the conlusion that maybe 3 Pushes is the right number to run.
How many fetches should one run to enable Revolt for Fatal Push? Is eight enough to go with a play-set of FP? Rex currently rolls with only six fetches and that seems too few; however, the ability to roll with so few fetches and so little fetching and shocking is part of the Rock's appeal.
Does anyone else think one needs enough side-board removal to replace FP in match-ups where it will suck? I mean, four FP is going to cause a case of the feels-bad when playing against things like Tron and, to some extent, Eldrazi. I suppose sweepers would count for the replacement, but I don't like the idea of four removal spells that may be dead from the start. If I add W, I can run some Paths and not worry about FP so much. FP does seem like a card Rex needs.
I would run 9 to start with. You can lower them at some point ot see how much the difference is. I am leaning towards 9 though. The thing is, revolt will generally not be that easy to enable, even with 9 fetchlands. I can see awkwards times in the future were we would want to kill a Eldrazi Displacer, Eldrazi Skyspawner, Finks or anything like that and simply can't because of missing revolt. In the end, bolt still is more versatile.
That brings me to the conlusion that maybe 3 Pushes is the right number to run.
Three seems like a good plan for Junk but four might be correct for Rex. Nine seems like a reasonable number of fetches but I hate to run that many. I do have another Revolt trigger main-deck and a few more side-board but Revolt will inevitable let one down on occasion.
I am new to abzan, but I have played plenty of kiki-chord. Has anybody tryed abzan with collected company? And is abzan archangel of thune a thing, or it it subpar to regular abzan?
I would ask the company thread for their opinion
Edit, never mind, I found it.
Knightfall player here, looking to get into BGx now that fatal push exists. I don't really like brewing decks in an archetype that I'm unfamiliar with, but I'll have to wait some weeks until tournament results appear and I can copy something (it's not that I don't like brewing, is that brewing requires knowledge and I lack that)
Rants aside, this is what I've been testing https://deckstats.net/decks/2563/642065-bgw-rock
I basically made some tweaks to Maadask's list. Some games I wanted to be aggresive but had to keep a slow hand just because a mulligan would probably grant me something worse. Overall, it feels a bit awkward, don't know if it's the list or it's me being inexperienced. Any quick recommendations for this list?
Question about the archetype in general, what do you usually want out of liliana? when do you side it out? Of course when you want to go to a topdeck war she's great but what about decks like merfolk or burn? If someone could write/link me a "liliana for starters" that would be nice.
And quite the same with lingering souls. I've run this card in other decks (esper gifts) but here seems to have a different role. Is it just a great card with liliana/collective brutality or is there anything else that I'm missing? Casting it for three mana felt like a lot, granting little board stabilization, against all this decks trying to kill me fast.
L: Maverick
A.) A lot of mana dorks who will just smile at you telling them to sac a target
B.) A super, super agressive creature swarm deck, so things like Elves, Affinity, Merfolk. Sometimes cutting all of them is wrong though, as LOTV is the only solution to killing Etched Champion outside of a boardwipe. Merfolk can still be crippled with a well timed LOTV and if they lack a manland, or you can kill the manland and drop her. Against elves, if you have 1 or 2 blockers, the elves player may not want to kill off their resources, and you choosing to discard is similar to her -2 sac effect, they're discarding creature cards, which can be a blow to them
C.) You drop LOTV if decks are more than happy to discard. For example, you wouldn't want to discard anyone's hand like dredge or 8rack
LOTV can shred a burn decks hand, and depending on the situation, they may feel pressured to kill her, wasting resources and keeping you alive
Lingering souls is THE most heartbreaking card to play against fair decks. You're playing a card that doesn't care about individual removal, and countering a lingering souls feels crappy, too. Your 1 card can be worth 2 of theirs, more even if they're desparate to kill the tokens.
Lingering souls can also stabilize you, let's say a creature swarm deck got some hits in, but you killed 1 or 2 creatures before turn 3, now you have tokens to chump block and possibly trade with them. It feels AWFUL.
Lingering souls also fly, you'd be surprised how often they can fly over head and chip at people. They can also be a serious clock if you draw 2 Lingering souls
Lingering souls can be discarded by LOTV, which means you essentially discarded half a card while your opponent traded a full card
You generally trim or cut lingering souls against non-interactive decks that you either need to race, or side in hate and discard
Hope that helps
Does anyone else think one needs enough side-board removal to replace FP in match-ups where it will suck? I mean, four FP is going to cause a case of the feels-bad when playing against things like Tron and, to some extent, Eldrazi. I suppose sweepers would count for the replacement, but I don't like the idea of four removal spells that may be dead from the start. If I add W, I can run some Paths and not worry about FP so much. FP does seem like a card Rex needs.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I'm thinking of two possible builds
4x Dark Confidant
2x Grim Flayer
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Spells (23)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
4x Fatal Push
3x Path to Exile
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Collective Brutality
4x Lingering Souls
3x Liliana of the Veil
4x Blooming Marsh
1x Forest
1x Godless Shrine
3x Marsh Flats
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
3x Shambling Vent
2x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
This deck is incredibly low to the ground, lower than Jund, ignoring Tasigur and Bob's nobo combo. Tasigur is almost a Goyf 5 and 6 immune to Push. It also only has 7 cards that cost 3 cmc, and another 2 with Tasigur, that is a low to the ground cost that is only expensive in terms of Dark Confidant triggers.
I see some people cutting Collective Brutality, but I think that's the wrong move.
There could be some 3x Bob/3x Flayer instead, if people fancy it, or reverse Flayer as 4x and Bob as 2, if Tasigur worries them
I feel like this is a really good shell to operate off of, the deck honestly won't need to sweat about only having 3 mana, outside of it being a very late game or land destruction
You could change the mana a little to your liking, if you guys feel the fetches are off, and adding a 2nd Overgrown Tomb
I'm a little surprised how much lower to the ground this deck feels from 1 card being released, it's about the same as Jund's now, making Bob so much better
I think unfortunately Siege Rhino is going to be out, push is incredibly harmful towards him
If you feel super pressured by swarm aggro decks, you could cut the 2x flayers and add more removal, with some combination of path/pulse/decay
If dredge is still dominant, you could cut 1x Tasigur for the Anafenza
I don't think the noble hierarch builds will be the way to go once Fatal Push is legal in modern.
Tell me what you guys think and what an optimal build would look like. I didn't want to create a SB, but I'm thinking it'll most likely include
1x Damnation, 1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, 1x Thrun, the Last Troll
Yeah, pretty much this.
This deck isn't really the deck for tricks and synergy and stuff. It's gotta be a house on its own...and this card is not a house by itself. It requires some sort of set up for it to be ideal. Not much use for it here I'm afraid. I'm inclined to say eternal witness is probably a stronger card overall, yet hardly sees any play in this deck (let alone, in the format), so I don't really have any hopes for renegade rallier.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
You and I have come to the same conclusion. I've done some mild testing with various builds with our new toy and Dark Confidant is just an absolute house along with 1 mana removal spells. Here is the list that I've been testing so far.
3 Blooming Marsh
1 Forest
1 Gavony Township
2 Godless Shrine
3 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
2 Shambling Vent
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Siege Rhino
Sorcerys (12)
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
4 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Instants (8)
3 Fatal Push
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
Planeswalkers (4)
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Damnation
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Lost Legacy
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Shriekmaw
2 Stony Silence
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Some notes
1) Currently running 3 Blooming Marsh. I think this is the correct number since access to green mana early game isn't as important as having a good number of fetchlands to turn on Fatal Push
2) I have 9 fetchland which seems like the minimal amount we should run.
3) I still like Siege Rhino and we'll see how the meta settles if it's still good. If 4 mana is too clunky, I can imagine this slot becoming Grim Flayer again and going even lower to the ground.
4) 4 Fatal Pushes seem like too much. They seem like dead cards against a deck like Grixis where 4 Bolts in Jund can still go to the face. 3 seems like a good starting point IMO.
5) I have 1 Liliana, the Last Hope main. I feel like this is a flex slot that can be another Maelstrom Pulse, Collective Brutality, Abrupt Decay, etc. I figured since the creature count is pretty low, regrowthing creatures seems good. Not to mention, bringing back Siege Rhinos that have been Fatally Pushed is tempting.... Drain 6?
6) Gavony Township is my utility land slot. It has won me so many games and broken mirrors and I'm glad I can sleeve it back up. It's the card I've missed the most when I ran the Noble Hierarch version.
7) My sideboard is still from my old list. We'll see if there's any B&R changes and I'll post my updated list once the announcement comes out.
Overall, Push seems great and I'm glad I can run Dark Confidant in Abzan without being too clunky. What are people's thoughts?
I'll have to see, it could be a black bolt, and I might want to run 4.
Just played MTGO in the practice rooms, even though it's been a 1 of, Gavony has been an absolute house in my matchups tonight. The card is so impressive.
Flayer has been good, too. He didn't connect too much tonight, but he was such a must answer he lead the way to making my other cards safe
Gideon has been excellent in fair matches, he won me 2 rounds.
I would sooner cut the 2nd copy of overgrown tombs before the 4th copy of Bloom. Why is everyone in this thread so attached to 2x overgrown tombs and not the 4th bloom? I have not needed the 2nd copy of overgrown tomb in 40 something games. The only time I could see it being needed is against land destruction and merfolk spreading seas.
The curve between these two decks mainly only need 3 mana
I have to see if 3 or 4 pushes is the right call. I'm ok with cutting 1 LOTV with 14 creatures in the lineup
Junk has a lot less to cut, to be honest, and I feel like there's less to board in
I'd bring in a damnation. EE has been very underwhelming against any form of tax decks.
It's hard to say without seeing a list
Most maindecks are already well equipped to handle them
Your removal hits everything you need it to, you don't want to cut discard like you do against death and taxes because of the janky combo, souls can be discarded to killing smasher without card parity
I wouldn't stress it too much, I'd cut like a lingering souls, and try to make it so that when Smasher comes down you're not too stressed about it.
I'd be curious to see if Fulms would be good, but I'm not by any means recommending that, that's something I'd want to test
There isn't much to cut, the 60 is almost perfectly equipped to handle them
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UWUWxUW
I went to Face to Face Open on Jan 7th in Toronto with 160 aprox players attendance. I ended up making top8 and we chopped the prize support (2250$).
Decided to write a report for you guys, mainly because I'm fairly active in this forum and I think among myself, Spiegel1987, Ayiluss, and KoDiamonds we might be some of the versed people to talk to about junk... Well that's the preface anyway.
*On the Draw [OTD] *On the Play [OTP]
Match 1 vs [R/U Agro]/[Suicide Blue]/[Kiln fiend/thing]
Pre-Overview: I don't think this match-up is very hard for Junk, they play few creatures and we play a lot of removal with little protection. Important thing in my opinion is to kill thier threats quickly before they have a chance to manipulate the interaction and always be scared of Apostle's Blessing (Card is a one of?).
Game 1 OTD: It was clear the player was inexperienced after I Inquisition Of Kozilek him to rip a Kiln fiend and on his turn two he rolls out his freshly drawn Spirebluff canal rather than the Scalding Tarn that I was aware of. He later found a Thing in the ice that blanked an early Grim Flayer but could not block a Tarmogoyf but I pathed it before it became a threat and allowed my grim to swing.
Game 2 OTD: My opponents inexperience shows bigger when he casts a Young pyromancer triggers for 1 elemental and passes, I follow up Collectie Brutality which I cast for 2 modes escaating with lingering Souls (Kill young, look at hand) and see he has a Gitaxian probe in hand. Later in the game he casts GitProbe for life with 4 mana up and passes the turn- not sure if this is correct, are you hoping for runner-runner TiTI into Manamorphose+Manamorphose+ 2 other zero-1 cmc cards... not sure if that is a reality line. After the game we talk and he asks if he missplayed and find out it is his first ever 'bigger' (outside fnm?) event.
Post-overview: Pathing the TiTI early on I think is fine given the board state, good chance you are going to have to remove it anyways, if it is blanking a creature you might as well remove it before it can block and get in for dmg.
1-0 (2-0-0)
Match 2 vs [Mardu removal]/[Mardu Spirits]/[Mardu Goodstuff.dek?]
Pre-Overview: I've played this match-up before at events and it is really grindy but BGx always seems to walk out of the smoke after the clash, I'm sure its not hard to speculate why.
Game 1 OTP: We trade resources throughout much of the game, more so my threats for his removal, I see that he is on a Nahiri the Harbringer, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn package after a mid game inquisition. Later in the game I decide to set myself up for a Shambling vent swing to kill nahiri if I top deck a land, which I did not do and end up letting his use his nahiri two more times than I had hopped, we battle out with lingering souls and eventually with the help of Shambling I take out the Nahiri, we slub back and forth for a while but he runs out of removal for my threats and Siege Rhino is a great card in the matchup.
Game 2 OTD: He keeps in his hand removal which I felt was pretty weird but gets a timeley removal spell early game and rips away a curvedable threat, he controls the board state enough that when I get an advantage and swing with goyf he untapps and dropps Nahiri-kill-goyf, I sturggle battling nahiri time bomb while he runs out souls and chumps until hes able to ult nahiri and drop the Spag-monster on me. RIP.
Game 3 OTP: This game is extremely long and it's hard to describe every interaction in length, we end up going to time in a back and forth slug-fest that leads me with superior board presence on turn 3/5 (his turn), he is at 11 life and I have Gideon, ally of zendikar, Knight Token, 2x Spirit Token, and a Shambling, he draws a blank and passes with a Shambling of his own available for activation. At this point on my turn 4 I need to rip some gas off the top for that Shambling or be forced to have the: "hey my board state is clearly superior do you want to concede to me?" conversation that no one ever says "yes" to in round 2. I draw my sideboard Fulminator Mage and begin celebrating as well as half the people behind me, play Fulmi, blow up his Shambling, activate Gideon and my own Shambling, swing for exactly lethal on turn 4/5 on turns. Huge top deck
Post-Overview: During the early stages of one of the games I have the ability to roll out a threat in the form of Grim Flayer but I decide to activate and swing with a shambling vent on his empty board instead, it is met with a path and I am rewarded for my ling term thinking. The match will go long as much as you think it wont, so make long term investments and take incremental advantages while not committing too much to a board state, this match-up is heavily swayed by over-commitment into Damnation
2-0 (4-1-0)
Match 3 vs [Elves]
Pre-overview: Not happy to see elves, match-up is not good for us pre-board and only slightly increases post board with a 1-2 of Damnation. My deck is tuned a bit (in the form of Liliana of the Last Hope and a 2-of Brutality) for early game interactions so I hope for a good draw.
Game 1 OTP: I draw a good hand (close to the nuts) in the form of LotLH and a brutaity in my opener, I need a third land to stick the curve but it seems likely, I keep and Brutality a Llanowar Elves on my turn 2 to slow him down from the nut opener and remove a Chord of calling with the other mode, can't remember what I discared but it was a hard decision (was not something easy like a second lilly or a lingering souls), I see an Elvish Archdruid and 2xheritage Druid, which I did not realize then but I realize now that had I not removed the first elf I would be facing down a board containing all four creatures all of which are out of LotLH range because of druid. He plays a land + 'Draw a card elf'(cant remember name) and says pass, I stick a LotLH and ping it, his turn three he plays both heritage druids pass, I draw into removal play double threat and ping a druid, his turn 4 he drops the Archdruid and a llanowar, taps all three for an 'Elf that makes token elf'(Dwynens elite?), and says pass, I untap Abrupt decay the Archdruid, ping heritage, double swing. At this point the game is locked for me and I ride double threat plus lilly shennanigans to the W.
Game 2 OTD: My opp mullligans to 5 and keeps a one lander, I have the option to roll out turn 1 noble, but choose to roll out turn 1 INKO instead because of the weak start hes having, I take his only reasonable play. Opp doesnt draw into a second land for three draw steps and I pull too far ahead in that time for things to matter much.
Post-Overview: Don't hold up anything besides instants (and even then sometimes don't hold up instants) against elves, because they will do broken things at instant speed that drastically change the board state, it's hard to slow them down but you have to try, you wont win an 'I ignore you you ignore me and we race' game.
3-0 (6-1-0)
Match 4 vs [JUND]
Pre-Overview: Feeling pretty happy another BGx player made it up in the x-0 division, and even happier still that it is JUND and not the mirror. I put my opponent on the fact that he is probably a better player than me so I need to take my time and possibly try and act dumb to tilt him by being 'beaten'/'got' by a player he feels is not at his calibur.
Game 1 OTD: I don't think there were any notable plays or decisions in this game, I'm pretty sure it went 1-for-1, 2-for-1, 1-for-2, 2-for-2, lingering souls, win for me.
Game 2 OTD: Was a ridiculous curve out for me, he runner-runner stuck Dark Confidant into Grim, into Goyf, and I runner-runner hit him with Brutality, Abrupt, Lilly edict, got value of souls on turn four lilly tick up, follow up rhino, he terminates says pass, I then start rolling out the other half of my deck (the threat portion) and he has no removal I guess because he kept a threat dense opener. I run away with the game.
Post-Overview: The match-up is a grind fest but I think Junk is favored pre-board, and probably still post, although the matchup imporves with Night of Soul's Betrayal and blow out cards like Engineered Explosives and Damnation. I would say always slow grind and don't overcommit until you are far enough ahead to take a sweep and keep going, you dont want to not take an adv when you can but you dont want to overplay into a board flip. Play around Scavenging ooze in regards for souls rather than playing around Maelstrom pulse (given changing game-state information) it feels bad but you want your opp to blow out pulse on souls. Also mind gaming and personality strategies are an entire part of this game that players do not talk much about, this match is a good example of atleast 'trying' to mind game, but another good example: A player at my LGS likes to play LIGHTHING fast, so when I play against him, I slow the game down more so than when I play against anyone else, and it throws him off completely; think about these things.
4-0 (8-1-0) (top going into round 5)
...continue the rest after, getting tired of typing and quality of report is starting to slip.
I would run 9 to start with. You can lower them at some point ot see how much the difference is. I am leaning towards 9 though. The thing is, revolt will generally not be that easy to enable, even with 9 fetchlands. I can see awkwards times in the future were we would want to kill a Eldrazi Displacer, Eldrazi Skyspawner, Finks or anything like that and simply can't because of missing revolt. In the end, bolt still is more versatile.
That brings me to the conlusion that maybe 3 Pushes is the right number to run.
Three seems like a good plan for Junk but four might be correct for Rex. Nine seems like a reasonable number of fetches but I hate to run that many. I do have another Revolt trigger main-deck and a few more side-board but Revolt will inevitable let one down on occasion.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn