Yes it does. The pros metagame the metagame; that is why they are playing abzan and not jund.
The best players on the planet don't just pick decks on a whim. They know about suicide zoo and dredge and picked abzan to combat those decks.
As it showed playing BGx at Worlds was bad decision. Neither Jund neither Abzan was good positioned in this metagame and results show this. Only one GBx player made it into the top 4 (with Abzan) despite 10 of them played it and there were also 2 Jund decks. You may agree or not but I think such a big prevalence of Abzan was there due to expectations of Jund (at least this makes sense to me) but as it turns out there were other decks Abzan isn't that good against.
I am not so sure it was a bad pick. There are no truely unwinnable matchups like tron. Worst is the 2 titan shift (which is a pretty crappy matchup). Bant eldrazi and company is not great but not horrible either. It wasn't a great pick either though but certainly not bad. Jund is a terrible pick in this meta.
In hindsight Titanshift seems like the best choice, but it's pretty hard to guess how much fast aggro shows up (iirc last year there was plenty).
Remember that modern was only a very small part of the equasion for top 4.
IMO the reasons to play abzan these days are:
Jund is popular
Path (unlike Bolt) is a house vs Death's Shadow
Collective Brutality gives Abzan better game vs Infect and Burn, lessening the need for Bolt.
Grim Flayer allows Abzan (and gives it a reason) to play lower to the ground.
Lingering Souls crushes any Delver type or midrange grind deck (which remain popular)
You can predict metagame but can't be sure about it. These players just picked what they thought it was the best deck for this tournament but if I was one of them and knew this would be the metagame I definitely wouldn't pick Abzan.
Of course. In hindsight it's not the best choice. Everyone probably should have brought Tron. But in hindsight those kinds of things are easy to say. Seeing the gp results I think Abzan was a relatively safe choice. It's never going to be nuts, but it's probably not going to be horrible either.
I agree with Path being better against Death's Shadow than Bolt you need to know that Jund plays Terminate too, not just Lightning Bolt. I feel that people often forget when comparing Jund and Abzan and their removal and just compare Bolt vs Path but it's actually (in my opinion at least) Bolt and Terminate vs Path. Against Death's Shadow Path is probably still a bit better than Terminate because it costs only one mana and due to the fact that they don't play any basics it doesn't have any drawback.
Path is not a bit better then terminate vs superaggrissive decks, it's miles better. Terminate costs twice as much as path to cast. In these games which are decided in the first 3 turns that is absolutely HUGE! Just compare it to having a bolt or a decay in hand as your only removal on the draw vs infect...
Collective Brutality gives you better game against Infect and Burn but I don't know how much it improve these matchups. Abzan (with out it) was underdog against both of them.
Slight underdogs yes, even though burn was very beatable as long as you built your deck a bit with it in mind. Collective brutality gives a few more percentages.
I agree that Abzan becomes more appealing to play with all these new tools but I'm still on Jund. I guess we have to wait though and see where Abzan goes in the future and how much these cards will raise it.
Of course you play whatever you want, atm Abzan is better IMO. That might change quickly if other aggro decks like zoo, infect, tribal aggro,... start to rear their heads again though. And with some sideboard tweaking Jund can certainly gain a lot of pcts vs Abzan.
We'll see what the new fastlands do for the deck. I think they'll be a good addition. There's some discussion about whether abzan wants these as it only really plays black one drops (discard), but that's false logic. Often I turn 1 fetch for a shock into discard just to fix my mana on later turns. Saving 3 damage there will definately help beating those aggressive decks.
You misunderstood me because I left out some things my bad. The pros picked Abzan based on assumptions of the metagame they expected at worlds. Other pros assumed the same thing and picked decks like titanshift and eldrazi to beat the Abzan players.
That does not mean Abzan is the best deck, it means that Abzan is assumed to be more favorable in the metagame expected at worlds.
If I expect a lot of Jund, I play Abzan and get an easy 4-0.
I agree with you about them trying to predict the amount of Jund.
On another note how do you think the new lands change our manabase?
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UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I am testing 2 of each fastland right now and I like it. I cut Twilight Mire.
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UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I believe that having B/W up for path is going to be a lot more useful than having B/G. Turn 1 Path or Turn 2 tapped shock + Path. I feel like the fetch count needs to be changed for 4Verdant-3Heath-1Flats because the G count goes down with less G sources and a higher chance of hitting B without life turn 1.
On another note how do you think the new lands change our manabase?
Well Abzan will become better against aggro decks but I think Jund will be still favourite against those-at least as long Abzan doesn't get (if) one 1 mana Bolt like removal. I honestly don't know which lands will go in favour of fast lands, probably basic plains and maybe Twillight Mire, or maybe some copy of manland. I even don't know which one will see play but I guess B/W has better chances since it gives you an option of turn 1 Path which admittedly is not good on turn 1 usually but it could be an option on the draw sometimes (by killing opposing Goyf for example) while B/G doesn't provide much (you don't need green on turn 1). That said testing will be required in my opinion to see which configuration is the best.
Versions with Noble Hierarch will almost for sure want the B/G fastland as a 4-of, I think, since it allows a turn 1 discard or Hierarch. Versions without Hierarch, I'm not sure, but I think B/G is still better because it allows plays like turn 1 discard -> turn 2 colorless land + Goyf. White mana is typically not super important until turn 3, except against Infect where we don't care about our life total too much anyway. Suicide Zoo is the only deck against which we would really benefit from having a turn 1/2 pain-free white source.
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
On another note how do you think the new lands change our manabase?
Well Abzan will become better against aggro decks but I think Jund will be still favourite against those-at least as long Abzan doesn't get (if) one 1 mana Bolt like removal. I honestly don't know which lands will go in favour of fast lands, probably basic plains and maybe Twillight Mire, or maybe some copy of manland. I even don't know which one will see play but I guess B/W has better chances since it gives you an option of turn 1 Path which admittedly is not good on turn 1 usually but it could be an option on the draw sometimes (by killing opposing Goyf for example) while B/G doesn't provide much (you don't need green on turn 1). That said testing will be required in my opinion to see which configuration is the best.
Versions with Noble Hierarch will almost for sure want the B/G fastland as a 4-of, I think, since it allows a turn 1 discard or Hierarch. Versions without Hierarch, I'm not sure, but I think B/G is still better because it allows plays like turn 1 discard -> turn 2 colorless land + Goyf. White mana is typically not super important until turn 3, except against Infect where we don't care about our life total too much anyway. Suicide Zoo is the only deck against which we would really benefit from having a turn 1/2 pain-free white source.
This is very sound reasoning.
Blooming Marsh makes sense as a 4-of in Hierarch builds. T1 Path off Concealed Courtyard doesn't a solid line of play.
On another note, I also don't see both fastlands being played in a single list. It's either-or since IMO fastlands are better as 4-of's. Just like Jund has with Cliffs and not Copperline Gorge.
4x Blooming Marsh and 2x Concealed Courtyard seems odd and problematic T4+ since by then they are all basically tapped lands.
Interested to see if Hierarch-less builds are well-positioned or not with the addition of fastlands and if they are, will they put up results?
On another note how do you think the new lands change our manabase?
Well Abzan will become better against aggro decks but I think Jund will be still favourite against those-at least as long Abzan doesn't get (if) one 1 mana Bolt like removal. I honestly don't know which lands will go in favour of fast lands, probably basic plains and maybe Twillight Mire, or maybe some copy of manland. I even don't know which one will see play but I guess B/W has better chances since it gives you an option of turn 1 Path which admittedly is not good on turn 1 usually but it could be an option on the draw sometimes (by killing opposing Goyf for example) while B/G doesn't provide much (you don't need green on turn 1). That said testing will be required in my opinion to see which configuration is the best.
Versions with Noble Hierarch will almost for sure want the B/G fastland as a 4-of, I think, since it allows a turn 1 discard or Hierarch. Versions without Hierarch, I'm not sure, but I think B/G is still better because it allows plays like turn 1 discard -> turn 2 colorless land + Goyf. White mana is typically not super important until turn 3, except against Infect where we don't care about our life total too much anyway. Suicide Zoo is the only deck against which we would really benefit from having a turn 1/2 pain-free white source.
I think I am going to stick with a Hierarch-less build and I am pondering the same thing. Abzan doesn't need access to 2 colors turn 1. And on the second turn, you more often than not want access to green than white for goyf, ooze, and grim flayer. So, I still think you want the GB fast land.
After comparing the Abzan mana base to the Jund manabase, you can't really copy their blueprint. Their fast land is BR with access to discard + bolt. Then, they skimp on their red sources by playing Ravines and only 1 Stomping Ground with no basic mountains. Abzan can't really do that because we want to run the BG fast land, but want access to painless white turn 3 for lingering souls, which might be a little awkward. Aka, if we run the BG fast land, we still need to run a basic Plains while Jund can cut a basic mountain. The manabase will still be a little awkward IMO for this very reason.
I completely agree. I think noble hierarch is trash in Abzan and not what I want in a top deck war or any matchup ever.
I understand why people play it but I'd rather play the green figure of destiny before I'd play a mana dork.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
My changes will be
-1 Swamp
-1 Godless Shrine
-1 Overgrown Tomb
-1 Twilight Mire
+3 Blooming Marsh (BG Fast land)
+1 Concealed Courtyard (BW Fast land)
To preface, I don't like hierarch builds because they cut 2 lands and go from 24 lands to 22. So, they tend to not have access to utility lands and I LOVE Gavony Township and Ghost Quarter. Township gives us edge in the mirror, speeds up our soul's clocks, resets finks, etc. etc. And GQ has saved me way too many times vs. an attacking Inkmoth. So, IMO these 2 lands are untouchable in my rough draft.
I'll have a 3/1 split because a) I am taking out a Godless Shrine so I am compensating for an extra white source. b) If I draw a combination of 2 fast lands, I can still cast my 2 drops. The only concern is if my opening lands are Concealed Courtyard + plains. But, my hand would still be awkward cause it would be a Godless Shrine + Plains before the change.
I am cutting Twilight Mire because it becomes awkward with my other 2 colorless producing utility lands. A hand with Blooming Marsh, GQ, discard, goyf/ooze is very much keepable while if it was a Twilight Mire, it would not.
The next cuts are a Swamp and an Overgrown Tomb. Cutting the second swamp leaves me vulnerable to Blood Moon but that card wrecks me anyway. Overgrown Tomb is the card I am concerned with as I am pretty sure the second BG dual is important. In which case, I might cut a Hissing Quagmire for the 4th Fast land and keep the Overgrown Tomb.
That is where I am at currently. What do people think? Lets break this down.
I have been praying for this day, enemy colored fastlands are here!!!! I think abzan/junk is going to be top dawg after this. I think the B/G land will be a 4 of although I could see an argument for a mix or even running more than four overall. I think twilight mire is going to drop right out of competitive play, I feel like it was only there since junk had no access to fastlands. I think i will even be running dark confidant especially since we should be running 10-11 one mana spells at least and then probably like ten 2 mana spells between the confidant(or grimflayer although I feel that he is a bit weakr than bob since you have to be pro-active with him and build your deck a little differently to enable him), goyf and scooze. Not sure if i will go the little kid route with with 7 mana dorks to ramp, with the discard in the side or do the discard main and have other side slots open. I'm thinking if i did the little kid route i would run some number of voices and finks and up the number of rhinos to even 4 maybe. I always like my discard suite but either way i would run 4 lily and a turn 2 lily can be pretty back breaking. I think there is an argument to be made either way and gavony township+souls tokens is nice in the lategame. Also if you drop discard you should have fewer dead draws because if you topdeck a mana dork lategame hopefully you can just pump em with gavony. Either way its going to be super sweet and I think the fastlands will push this ahead of jund (despite their access to better man-lands)
Im currently thinking either a 2-2 split with the G/B and W/B lands or the 3-1 split that you are proposing. Painless white is a nice for getting souls or a rhino out on curve and I feel like 1 fast land is not gonna come up enough to really be relevant which is why i am leaning towards a 2-2 split. I will probably at least consider a 3-2 split with G/B getting 3 as well. not sure yet, but i am glad we are getting these. I have always liked the Junk deck more than the Jund Deck
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Im currently thinking either a 2-2 split with the G/B and W/B lands or the 3-1 split that you are proposing. Painless white is a nice for getting souls or a rhino out on curve and I feel like 1 fast land is not gonna come up enough to really be relevant which is why i am leaning towards a 2-2 split. I will probably at least consider a 3-2 split with G/B getting 3 as well. not sure yet, but i am glad we are getting these. I have always liked the Junk deck more than the Jund Deck
If you think fastlands aren't going to be all that relevant, I would point you towards blackcleave cliffs which is traditionally only a 4 of in Jund but changes the whole landscape of the deck. I personally wouldn't be all that surprised if Jund added a couple blooming marshes to its mana base. I mean drawing an untapped black source to play thoughtsieze can be crucial on turn one. Going down to 17, 16 or even 15 life on the first turn may be the best option sometimes but I think it comes back to bite you a lot of the time. If you are able to mitigate the amount of damage you do to yourself, I think you will be better off. I truly think these fastlands will make junk the preferred deck in the format. Lingering souls is so good against decks like infect and affinity and path currently seems to be the better removal source at one mana. White also just has better sideboard options flat out. I will put an addendum here. I may be a little biased as a player returning back to Junk from a long Jund hiatus and looking to see if saving the early game life can make Bob a player here.
Im currently thinking either a 2-2 split with the G/B and W/B lands or the 3-1 split that you are proposing. Painless white is a nice for getting souls or a rhino out on curve and I feel like 1 fast land is not gonna come up enough to really be relevant which is why i am leaning towards a 2-2 split. I will probably at least consider a 3-2 split with G/B getting 3 as well. not sure yet, but i am glad we are getting these. I have always liked the Junk deck more than the Jund Deck
If you think fastlands aren't going to be all that relevant, I would point you towards blackcleave cliffs which is traditionally only a 4 of in Jund but changes the whole landscape of the deck. I personally wouldn't be all that surprised if Jund added a couple blooming marshes to its mana base. I mean drawing an untapped black source to play thoughtsieze can be crucial on turn one. Going down to 17, 16 or even 15 life on the first turn may be the best option sometimes but I think it comes back to bite you a lot of the time. If you are able to mitigate the amount of damage you do to yourself, I think you will be better off. I truly think these fastlands will make junk the preferred deck in the format. Lingering souls is so good against decks like infect and affinity and path currently seems to be the better removal source at one mana. White also just has better sideboard options flat out. I will put an addendum here. I may be a little biased as a player returning back to Junk from a long Jund hiatus and looking to see if saving the early game life can make Bob a player here.
I think he meant having just 1 BW fast land within the manabase isnt relevant, not fast lands as a whole. He wants more BW fast lands instead of just 1.
I am going to breakdown my earlier post for easier viewing.
Before Fast lands:
9 Fetches, 4 Basics, 5 Shocklands, 3 Manlands, 2 Utilitylands, Twilight Mire
After Fast Lands:
9 Fetches, 3 Basics, 3 Shocklands, 3 Manlands, 2 Utilitylands, 4 Fastlands
Looking at that breakdown, I dont feel comfortable with 9 fetches and 6 fetchable lands. I feel like we can trim a fetch for a shock.
I think I am leaning towards this option. We have equal number of fetches as fetchable lands (like with my original manabase). A 3:2 split would hopefully lead to access to painfree mana to all of our colors early. The only other thing is I am afraid 7 fetches would be too little to reliably enable Delirium for Grim Flayer. However, my list is less "all-in" on delirium (no Baubles, but I run an Engineered Explosives main) so well eventually hit a fetch by turn 4/5 anyway and thats when I usually hit delirium normally.
I would go 3 BW fast land and two GB. Gives you an extra white source and we don't need green turn one.
I count 7 White sources 9 green in the current proposed manabase
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Old manabase: Black: 18, Green: 16, White: 15
New manabase: Black: 18, Green: 16, White: 14
I counted Fetches as access to all 3 colors. This is pleasantly surprising. When adding 5 Fast lands, we are only sacrificing 1 white source and no green sources. This makes me feel very comfortable to use this as a starting point for now.
I would go 3 BW fast land and two GB. Gives you an extra white source and we don't need green turn one.
I count 7 White sources 9 green in the current proposed manabase
With my breakdown, having 3 BW and 2 BG would lead to Black: 18, Green 15, White: 15. I would rather cut a white source, than a green source in the deck. But I guess thats up to you and how much you value white. I think we need all the green sources for Scavenging Ooze. Thanks for your input.
Yeah, I meant that I think putting 1 fast land in isn't relevant. The amount of times that you will get that land before your 3rd land drop with only 1 isn't good enough. That is why I was talking about 2-2 and 3-2 splits
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I am not so sure it was a bad pick. There are no truely unwinnable matchups like tron. Worst is the 2 titan shift (which is a pretty crappy matchup). Bant eldrazi and company is not great but not horrible either. It wasn't a great pick either though but certainly not bad. Jund is a terrible pick in this meta.
In hindsight Titanshift seems like the best choice, but it's pretty hard to guess how much fast aggro shows up (iirc last year there was plenty).
Remember that modern was only a very small part of the equasion for top 4.
IMO the reasons to play abzan these days are:
Jund is popular
Path (unlike Bolt) is a house vs Death's Shadow
Collective Brutality gives Abzan better game vs Infect and Burn, lessening the need for Bolt.
Grim Flayer allows Abzan (and gives it a reason) to play lower to the ground.
Lingering Souls crushes any Delver type or midrange grind deck (which remain popular)
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
1 darkblast
2 dromoka's command
3 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse
4 liliana of the veil
4 lingering souls
Creatures 15
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
2 scavenging ooze
2 grim flayer
3 phyrexian obliterator
4 blooming marsh
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
1 overgrown tomb
1 godless shrine
1 temple garden
2 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
1 Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 twilight mire
3 shambling vent
2 stony silence
2 leyline of the void
2 fulminator mage
2 kitchen finks
2 Thrun, the last troll
1 Kalitas, traitor of ghet
1 Sorin, solemn visitor
1 Liliana, the last hope
2 duress
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Of course. In hindsight it's not the best choice. Everyone probably should have brought Tron. But in hindsight those kinds of things are easy to say. Seeing the gp results I think Abzan was a relatively safe choice. It's never going to be nuts, but it's probably not going to be horrible either.
Path is not a bit better then terminate vs superaggrissive decks, it's miles better. Terminate costs twice as much as path to cast. In these games which are decided in the first 3 turns that is absolutely HUGE! Just compare it to having a bolt or a decay in hand as your only removal on the draw vs infect...
Slight underdogs yes, even though burn was very beatable as long as you built your deck a bit with it in mind. Collective brutality gives a few more percentages.
Of course you play whatever you want, atm Abzan is better IMO. That might change quickly if other aggro decks like zoo, infect, tribal aggro,... start to rear their heads again though. And with some sideboard tweaking Jund can certainly gain a lot of pcts vs Abzan.
We'll see what the new fastlands do for the deck. I think they'll be a good addition. There's some discussion about whether abzan wants these as it only really plays black one drops (discard), but that's false logic. Often I turn 1 fetch for a shock into discard just to fix my mana on later turns. Saving 3 damage there will definately help beating those aggressive decks.
That does not mean Abzan is the best deck, it means that Abzan is assumed to be more favorable in the metagame expected at worlds.
If I expect a lot of Jund, I play Abzan and get an easy 4-0.
I agree with you about them trying to predict the amount of Jund.
On another note how do you think the new lands change our manabase?
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
1x Windswept Heath
2x Overgrown Tmb
1x Godless Shrine
1x Temple Garden
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Vault of the Archangel
1x Twilight Mire
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Shambling Vent
Cutting this:
-1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
-1 Ghost Quarter
-1 Stirring Wildwood
-1 Windswept Heath
I believe that having B/W up for path is going to be a lot more useful than having B/G. Turn 1 Path or Turn 2 tapped shock + Path. I feel like the fetch count needs to be changed for 4Verdant-3Heath-1Flats because the G count goes down with less G sources and a higher chance of hitting B without life turn 1.
Modern: Junk Midrange
Versions with Noble Hierarch will almost for sure want the B/G fastland as a 4-of, I think, since it allows a turn 1 discard or Hierarch. Versions without Hierarch, I'm not sure, but I think B/G is still better because it allows plays like turn 1 discard -> turn 2 colorless land + Goyf. White mana is typically not super important until turn 3, except against Infect where we don't care about our life total too much anyway. Suicide Zoo is the only deck against which we would really benefit from having a turn 1/2 pain-free white source.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
Blooming Marsh makes sense as a 4-of in Hierarch builds. T1 Path off Concealed Courtyard doesn't a solid line of play.
On another note, I also don't see both fastlands being played in a single list. It's either-or since IMO fastlands are better as 4-of's. Just like Jund has with Cliffs and not Copperline Gorge.
4x Blooming Marsh and 2x Concealed Courtyard seems odd and problematic T4+ since by then they are all basically tapped lands.
Interested to see if Hierarch-less builds are well-positioned or not with the addition of fastlands and if they are, will they put up results?
BGW ABZAN WGB
BGR JUND RGB
I think I am going to stick with a Hierarch-less build and I am pondering the same thing. Abzan doesn't need access to 2 colors turn 1. And on the second turn, you more often than not want access to green than white for goyf, ooze, and grim flayer. So, I still think you want the GB fast land.
After comparing the Abzan mana base to the Jund manabase, you can't really copy their blueprint. Their fast land is BR with access to discard + bolt. Then, they skimp on their red sources by playing Ravines and only 1 Stomping Ground with no basic mountains. Abzan can't really do that because we want to run the BG fast land, but want access to painless white turn 3 for lingering souls, which might be a little awkward. Aka, if we run the BG fast land, we still need to run a basic Plains while Jund can cut a basic mountain. The manabase will still be a little awkward IMO for this very reason.
I understand why people play it but I'd rather play the green figure of destiny before I'd play a mana dork.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I dig the idea but I really want to throw Traverse the Ulvenwald into the mix. Then I'd drop a few one-of's into the mix such as Glissa, the Traitor. I'll admit I still secretly want to try out The Gitrog Monster.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
1 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Godless Shrine
1 Hissing Quagmire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Shambling Vent
1 Stirring Wildwood
2 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
My changes will be
-1 Swamp
-1 Godless Shrine
-1 Overgrown Tomb
-1 Twilight Mire
+3 Blooming Marsh (BG Fast land)
+1 Concealed Courtyard (BW Fast land)
End result will be
3 Blooming Marsh
1 Concealed Courtyard
1 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hissing Quagmire
2 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Shambling Vent
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
To preface, I don't like hierarch builds because they cut 2 lands and go from 24 lands to 22. So, they tend to not have access to utility lands and I LOVE Gavony Township and Ghost Quarter. Township gives us edge in the mirror, speeds up our soul's clocks, resets finks, etc. etc. And GQ has saved me way too many times vs. an attacking Inkmoth. So, IMO these 2 lands are untouchable in my rough draft.
I'll have a 3/1 split because a) I am taking out a Godless Shrine so I am compensating for an extra white source. b) If I draw a combination of 2 fast lands, I can still cast my 2 drops. The only concern is if my opening lands are Concealed Courtyard + plains. But, my hand would still be awkward cause it would be a Godless Shrine + Plains before the change.
I am cutting Twilight Mire because it becomes awkward with my other 2 colorless producing utility lands. A hand with Blooming Marsh, GQ, discard, goyf/ooze is very much keepable while if it was a Twilight Mire, it would not.
The next cuts are a Swamp and an Overgrown Tomb. Cutting the second swamp leaves me vulnerable to Blood Moon but that card wrecks me anyway. Overgrown Tomb is the card I am concerned with as I am pretty sure the second BG dual is important. In which case, I might cut a Hissing Quagmire for the 4th Fast land and keep the Overgrown Tomb.
That is where I am at currently. What do people think? Lets break this down.
Decks
Modern
BGR Jund RGB
BW Eldrazi and Taxes WB
BWGAbzan Company GWB
Mtgo Modern
G Company Elves G
If you think fastlands aren't going to be all that relevant, I would point you towards blackcleave cliffs which is traditionally only a 4 of in Jund but changes the whole landscape of the deck. I personally wouldn't be all that surprised if Jund added a couple blooming marshes to its mana base. I mean drawing an untapped black source to play thoughtsieze can be crucial on turn one. Going down to 17, 16 or even 15 life on the first turn may be the best option sometimes but I think it comes back to bite you a lot of the time. If you are able to mitigate the amount of damage you do to yourself, I think you will be better off. I truly think these fastlands will make junk the preferred deck in the format. Lingering souls is so good against decks like infect and affinity and path currently seems to be the better removal source at one mana. White also just has better sideboard options flat out. I will put an addendum here. I may be a little biased as a player returning back to Junk from a long Jund hiatus and looking to see if saving the early game life can make Bob a player here.
I think he meant having just 1 BW fast land within the manabase isnt relevant, not fast lands as a whole. He wants more BW fast lands instead of just 1.
I am going to breakdown my earlier post for easier viewing.
Before Fast lands:
9 Fetches, 4 Basics, 5 Shocklands, 3 Manlands, 2 Utilitylands, Twilight Mire
After Fast Lands:
9 Fetches, 3 Basics, 3 Shocklands, 3 Manlands, 2 Utilitylands, 4 Fastlands
Looking at that breakdown, I dont feel comfortable with 9 fetches and 6 fetchable lands. I feel like we can trim a fetch for a shock.
A) 8 Fetches, 3 Basics, 4 Shocklands, 3 Manlands, 2 Utilitylands, 4 Fastlands.
Another option we have is we can cut another fetch and run 5 fast lands (probably a 3:2 split between BG:BW).
B) 7 Fetches, 3 Basics, 4 Shocklands, 3 Manlands, 2 Utility Lands, 5 Fastlands.
I think I am leaning towards this option. We have equal number of fetches as fetchable lands (like with my original manabase). A 3:2 split would hopefully lead to access to painfree mana to all of our colors early. The only other thing is I am afraid 7 fetches would be too little to reliably enable Delirium for Grim Flayer. However, my list is less "all-in" on delirium (no Baubles, but I run an Engineered Explosives main) so well eventually hit a fetch by turn 4/5 anyway and thats when I usually hit delirium normally.
So that would mean my manabase would be
2 Concealed Courtyard
1 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hissing Quagmire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Shambling Vent
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
Ill breakdown the number of "access to colored sources later" when I have time.
Thoughts and opinions?
I count 7 White sources 9 green in the current proposed manabase
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
2 Concealed Courtyard
1 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hissing Quagmire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Shambling Vent
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
Old manabase: Black: 18, Green: 16, White: 15
New manabase: Black: 18, Green: 16, White: 14
I counted Fetches as access to all 3 colors. This is pleasantly surprising. When adding 5 Fast lands, we are only sacrificing 1 white source and no green sources. This makes me feel very comfortable to use this as a starting point for now.
With my breakdown, having 3 BW and 2 BG would lead to Black: 18, Green 15, White: 15. I would rather cut a white source, than a green source in the deck. But I guess thats up to you and how much you value white. I think we need all the green sources for Scavenging Ooze. Thanks for your input.
Decks
Modern
BGR Jund RGB
BW Eldrazi and Taxes WB
BWGAbzan Company GWB
Mtgo Modern
G Company Elves G