I was thinking about 2-3 Blightnings in the SB. Also makes me want to try out a BR burn/discard type deck. Not sure how competitive it could get though.
So I just starting up modern, still need to scout out my local shop.
I want to run Mono-Red, yes I did read that is not as optimal as R/B or R/B/W is but I would prefer a more traditional Red Burn.
Now I'd like to keep it as close as possible to the Legacy list, I know that Fireblast, Chain Lightning, Price of Progress, and Sulfuric Vortex are all banned so what could each card be essentially be replace by?
I have played around a bit with Elemental, Grim and Figures but neither of them fit how I want to play the deck.
From playtests I found Vexing Devil to be a good enough that I want to keep him in the deck.
4 dmg, even just once, is not something I would throw away.
So my only question is about the cards that I can't use from the Legacy version.
I thought about using Lightning Helix but just about every time I could cast it it would cost me a fetchland and shockland so the 3 life gain would be negated. I just went with a more consistent spell to cast in Incinerate instead. I like Bump but not a big fan of Bob. Some people do play him and get good results but I'm a player that would much rather start throwing burn to the head as soon as possible, as well as playing 5 three mana costing spells. Magma Jet has been an all star, finding me the cards I need when I need them while still guaranteeing me some damage.
That deck you posted is a Sligh deck and not a Burn deck. It wants to be casting creatures early on rather than flinging instants and sorceries.
True, although i think it's somewhat borderline. I like the 20/20/20 split. And i usually run more Sligh-oriented versions over the straight Burn decks (Zoo, Boros, RDW, etc), so that's probably why I like that list. Either way, I'm still going to brew up a Burn list similar to yours, but with Helix and maybe Bob. We'll see. It's possible that you're better off just cutting the permanents altogether, except for maybe Shrine of Burning Rage, just to make their creature removal dead Game 1.
I also don't quite see how Lightning Helix makes you fetch for a Shockland at the exact wrong moment (when you need to pay 2 life), but you have no trouble casting 6 white spells out of the board without the same problem. Personally, I'd add at least another Foundry to support those SB cards, and probably a 2nd Blood Crypt too. Fetching the turn before you need the off color mana and letting the land come into play tapped shouldn't be to hard to do if you play it right, and it's very much worth the lifegain. Especially since your at worst gaining it back anyway (so it's a harder to cast Incinerate).
Majiger, I'd check out the 2 lists Retro and I were discussing above, and decide whether you want to run straight burn, or a mix of creatures. If you don't like the splashes of W/B, you can replace Lightning Helix with the "New" Incinerate in M13, and you could definitely fit some Flame Javelins into Retro's list as well. Burst Lighning is another decent option at the 1-drop slot if you don't splash for Bump in the Night.
I'd probably recommend the Sligh list personally, since I feel that it's a little harder to hate out, and usually more interactive. Straight up burn is basically a combo deck that just needs to hit 7 spells and hope their opponent doesn't gain life or win first. The positive is that it basically doesn't interact with the board, but that can also be a negative. I'm still running Boros right now, since I love me some landfall, and because I think Thalia is the tits. But that's just me.
Not really. Rain of Gore is an option, but I don't really like it since it doesn't actually provide any further damage. If you could cast it at instant speed to nail them when they go for a Timely Reinforcements or whathaveyou, it wouldn't be bad, but I'd rather just run Flames of the Blood Hand i think. Your best bet might be to search through The Gatherer website for keywords, you might find a card that we haven't thought of yet. But in short, this ain't Legacy, so you gotta make due.
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Ok then, I'll go with "leaves them with dead cards in hand". They aren't going to cast Timely Reinforcements into your Rain unless the Blockers somehow help them win the game. And if they have a Baneslayer or Griselbrand or Batterskull out, they will only enter combat when they are either about to win, or to survive. Sure, it's pretty good there I guess (sorta), but it's not proactive, and if they gain life the turn before you draw it, it's just super-dead. Maybe it's necessary in some matchups/metas, but I would rather run something like Shrine of Burning Rage to help go over top of the random lifegain cards, rather than trying to beat them to it with an otherwise useless enchantment. Burn can't really afford to be not proactive. Anyway, point is, Rain of Gore is definitely a card, but I think there are other ways to fight the hate. Also, you need to accept that you will have bad matchups, and lifegain is definitely one of them. This is part of the reason I like Sligh a little better.
Malinger, you definitely need fetches to make Searing Blaze good. Even with them, you have to play carefully to turn on the landfall. Without them, you're just better off with Forked Bolt or Arc Trail (still mediocre).
True, although i think it's somewhat borderline. I like the 20/20/20 split. And i usually run more Sligh-oriented versions over the straight Burn decks (Zoo, Boros, RDW, etc), so that's probably why I like that list. Either way, I'm still going to brew up a Burn list similar to yours, but with Helix and maybe Bob. We'll see. It's possible that you're better off just cutting the permanents altogether, except for maybe Shrine of Burning Rage, just to make their creature removal dead Game 1.
I also don't quite see how Lightning Helix makes you fetch for a Shockland at the exact wrong moment (when you need to pay 2 life), but you have no trouble casting 6 white spells out of the board without the same problem. Personally, I'd add at least another Foundry to support those SB cards, and probably a 2nd Blood Crypt too. Fetching the turn before you need the off color mana and letting the land come into play tapped shouldn't be to hard to do if you play it right, and it's very much worth the lifegain. Especially since your at worst gaining it back anyway (so it's a harder to cast Incinerate).
Majiger, I'd check out the 2 lists Retro and I were discussing above, and decide whether you want to run straight burn, or a mix of creatures. If you don't like the splashes of W/B, you can replace Lightning Helix with the "New" Incinerate in M13, and you could definitely fit some Flame Javelins into Retro's list as well. Burst Lighning is another decent option at the 1-drop slot if you don't splash for Bump in the Night.
I'd probably recommend the Sligh list personally, since I feel that it's a little harder to hate out, and usually more interactive. Straight up burn is basically a combo deck that just needs to hit 7 spells and hope their opponent doesn't gain life or win first. The positive is that it basically doesn't interact with the board, but that can also be a negative. I'm still running Boros right now, since I love me some landfall, and because I think Thalia is the tits. But that's just me.
When it comes to the white splash, I don't mind taking 3 damage to cast my sideboard hate because against certain decks those cards can be good game. They are typically brought in against Storm and if one sticks I get a concession unless they side in SplinterTwin which has been rare.
I'm not a big fan of fetching a land and letting it entered the battlefield tapped EOT. With Burn, the goal is to use every single mana that you get on every turn and have that one mana do 3+ damage. The 3 life that gets gained off of Helix only really helps in aggro matches and those matches are usually a race meaning you want to be cracking your fetchlands to cast spells and I can't say that aggro is a horrible matchup.
Either way, those slots have been cut for Spark Elemental to provide a bit more 3 damage for one mana spells. I don't think its necessarily wrong to run the Helix, I just prefer not to.
Yea, helix probably isn't that necessary. I'd consider Hellapark Elemental as another good value option. My roommate is talking about a list with guide, hellspark, Lavamancer, and Vexing Devil alongside 20-24 burn spells. I will say it's the first idea I've heard that sounds like it can actually abuse the rate on vexing devil.
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Meh, not sure about Teetering Peaks. Even in Standard, it was often sub-par. I'd rather run Keldon Megaliths, especially in the creature-light lists. It's worth more than 2 damage over the course of the game, and gets better in the late game when you need the reach.
Here's a list I found online, with some modifications I'd make were I to start testing it tomorrow. (I dont currently have a MODO account). It's the first time I can actually get behind Vexing Devil in a burn list:
Alus, without adding White you still have access to cards like Shattering Spree, Smash to Smithereens, and Go for the Throat. Not sure you need those W sideboard cards. Outside of maybe Leylines, I can't think of that many enchantments that are problematic and see enough play to worry about. And I'd rather Smash/Spree against Affinity anyway.
I hear you on Searing Blaze, sometimes it's really awkward. And if your meta is not over 50% creatures decks, I'd probably just SB them or cut them. But it really helps stave off problematic creatures while still keeping up the clock.
Bump is better than Spike, ignoring color requirements. They are both Sorceries; Bump can be a 2 for 1. Sure, you probably won't be paying 6 to flash it back that often, but it's still there. When games go long or you flood out, Bump keeps you in the game. It's THE reason to splash black. SB options are just a bonus.
Pulse of the Forge seems decent, but I doubt you will get the return trigger very often. By the time you're at 3 mana, you should have already cast 4-5 burn spells or dudes. I think Flame Javelin and Flames of the Blood Hand are just better for us.
Leyline of Sanctity is a problem, for sure. The only answer is attacking with dudes, which is unlikely to ever get there against a White deck. If that card becomes a thing, Disenchant could be necessary. I doubt we'll see it enough to worry though.
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What is the general consensus here about Thunderous Wrath? I've read a few things but they don't seem conclusive.
Personally I think its in sort of a gray area. On one hand 1 mana for 5 damage is the pinnacle of what it means to be an effective burn spell (opinionated), while on the other hand, an opening hand with one generally means it is a guaranteed no cast.
What I think it comes down to is that at any point beyond your opening hand and land, Thunderous Wrath becomes a very very potent burn spell, but I don't really have an answer for what I would do if I had one in hand, without being forced to run cards like Faithless Looting that I would really prefer not to.
I think that maybe with a bit more preparation and a few better draws I could have easily done better. The only deck I felt I outright could not beat was Martyr. Need to find some sort of tech against that.
Yeah that deck is nuts against burn in general. The thing I tried out against this deck is Leyline of Punishment + Volcanic Fallout and I have 4 FotBH main so that helps a lot. Bump is really good. I personally think black is worth splashing, but not white. Yeah it's nice to break enchantments, but I don't think it's worth it.
Grappler, my opinion on Thunderous Wrath is that you can't play it in Modern Burn. If you wanted to play them at all, you'd want instant speed Looting/Draw effects like Desolate Lighthouse and Think Twice, effects you can play during your opponents' turn and that let you ditch bad Miracles. But obviously that's not going to fit into a perfectly streamlined burn deck, nor is it worth all that. Modern is too fast to play those games.
And what do you get? An extra 2 damage out of your 1-mana spell, yes that's amazing. But the other percentage of the time, it's uncastable, dead in your hand, and is worth 0 damage effectively. Which means that, if your chances of Miracling it are, say 50% (they are not, I'm simply approximating here), than the average damage you're dealing with Wrath is 2.5. Even if you Miracle it more than half the time (unlikely), than you're still only getting roughly 3 points of damage out of it on average. The times where it just sits in your hand, rotting away while you have 3-4 mana, are not worth the times you pay 1 for 5.
We're never going to hit 6 mana, realistically. If Thunderous Wrath cost 4, I'd say run it. But 6 is too much, and we have plenty of other options for burn spells without needing to get greedy.
I have to agree with homeland. Six mana is just too much to hope for to natural cast it. We can hope with bump, that six mana flashback is just gravy past our 3 damage. But thunderous is just dead most of the time, unless as stated, you have a way to ditch/draw on op's turn.
I'm looking into dabbling into Modern and I've decided (along with a push from my friends) into picking Burn. I love Burn, I've been loving Legacy Burn for as long as I've known the deck.
My plan with the deck is to invest what little money I have into it and acquire pieces from there. If and when I complete the deck, I then make the transition into Legacy Burn. Sounds like a plan.
However, I'm working on a tight budget and this is the list I came up with:
surgical extraction or extirpate if you weren't already using one of those. Also, hand disruption for storm, combo, and other control decks. Preferably Inquisition of Kozilek or thoughtseize. Duress and Despise can work too. Maybe even Blightning. Not sure what the burn players' consensus is on blightning, but I like it.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
I was thinking about 2-3 Blightnings in the SB. Also makes me want to try out a BR burn/discard type deck. Not sure how competitive it could get though.
Modern:
GWR Naya Allies RWG
R Burn R
I want to run Mono-Red, yes I did read that is not as optimal as R/B or R/B/W is but I would prefer a more traditional Red Burn.
Now I'd like to keep it as close as possible to the Legacy list, I know that Fireblast, Chain Lightning, Price of Progress, and Sulfuric Vortex are all banned so what could each card be essentially be replace by?
My creature base would:
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Goblin Guide
I have played around a bit with Elemental, Grim and Figures but neither of them fit how I want to play the deck.
From playtests I found Vexing Devil to be a good enough that I want to keep him in the deck.
4 dmg, even just once, is not something I would throw away.
So my only question is about the cards that I can't use from the Legacy version.
Suggestions?
Shard Volley will go in instead of Fireblast.
True, although i think it's somewhat borderline. I like the 20/20/20 split. And i usually run more Sligh-oriented versions over the straight Burn decks (Zoo, Boros, RDW, etc), so that's probably why I like that list. Either way, I'm still going to brew up a Burn list similar to yours, but with Helix and maybe Bob. We'll see. It's possible that you're better off just cutting the permanents altogether, except for maybe Shrine of Burning Rage, just to make their creature removal dead Game 1.
I also don't quite see how Lightning Helix makes you fetch for a Shockland at the exact wrong moment (when you need to pay 2 life), but you have no trouble casting 6 white spells out of the board without the same problem. Personally, I'd add at least another Foundry to support those SB cards, and probably a 2nd Blood Crypt too. Fetching the turn before you need the off color mana and letting the land come into play tapped shouldn't be to hard to do if you play it right, and it's very much worth the lifegain. Especially since your at worst gaining it back anyway (so it's a harder to cast Incinerate).
Majiger, I'd check out the 2 lists Retro and I were discussing above, and decide whether you want to run straight burn, or a mix of creatures. If you don't like the splashes of W/B, you can replace Lightning Helix with the "New" Incinerate in M13, and you could definitely fit some Flame Javelins into Retro's list as well. Burst Lighning is another decent option at the 1-drop slot if you don't splash for Bump in the Night.
I'd probably recommend the Sligh list personally, since I feel that it's a little harder to hate out, and usually more interactive. Straight up burn is basically a combo deck that just needs to hit 7 spells and hope their opponent doesn't gain life or win first. The positive is that it basically doesn't interact with the board, but that can also be a negative. I'm still running Boros right now, since I love me some landfall, and because I think Thalia is the tits. But that's just me.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I think I found most of my substitutes except for Sulfuric Vortex.
Any ideas?
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
If I won't be running Fetchlands is there a point in running searing blaze? or is it just a waste without Grim/Fetch?
Malinger, you definitely need fetches to make Searing Blaze good. Even with them, you have to play carefully to turn on the landfall. Without them, you're just better off with Forked Bolt or Arc Trail (still mediocre).
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
When it comes to the white splash, I don't mind taking 3 damage to cast my sideboard hate because against certain decks those cards can be good game. They are typically brought in against Storm and if one sticks I get a concession unless they side in SplinterTwin which has been rare.
I'm not a big fan of fetching a land and letting it entered the battlefield tapped EOT. With Burn, the goal is to use every single mana that you get on every turn and have that one mana do 3+ damage. The 3 life that gets gained off of Helix only really helps in aggro matches and those matches are usually a race meaning you want to be cracking your fetchlands to cast spells and I can't say that aggro is a horrible matchup.
Either way, those slots have been cut for Spark Elemental to provide a bit more 3 damage for one mana spells. I don't think its necessarily wrong to run the Helix, I just prefer not to.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Here's a list I found online, with some modifications I'd make were I to start testing it tomorrow. (I dont currently have a MODO account). It's the first time I can actually get behind Vexing Devil in a burn list:
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
6 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Keldon Megaliths
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Vexing Devil
2 Flames of the Blood Hand
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
3 Shard Volley
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Shattering Spree
4 Torpor Orb
I haven't tested it at all, but it has me pretty excited. If I were to switch over to Burn from Boros, I would probably start here.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I hear you on Searing Blaze, sometimes it's really awkward. And if your meta is not over 50% creatures decks, I'd probably just SB them or cut them. But it really helps stave off problematic creatures while still keeping up the clock.
Bump is better than Spike, ignoring color requirements. They are both Sorceries; Bump can be a 2 for 1. Sure, you probably won't be paying 6 to flash it back that often, but it's still there. When games go long or you flood out, Bump keeps you in the game. It's THE reason to splash black. SB options are just a bonus.
Pulse of the Forge seems decent, but I doubt you will get the return trigger very often. By the time you're at 3 mana, you should have already cast 4-5 burn spells or dudes. I think Flame Javelin and Flames of the Blood Hand are just better for us.
Leyline of Sanctity is a problem, for sure. The only answer is attacking with dudes, which is unlikely to ever get there against a White deck. If that card becomes a thing, Disenchant could be necessary. I doubt we'll see it enough to worry though.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Personally I think its in sort of a gray area. On one hand 1 mana for 5 damage is the pinnacle of what it means to be an effective burn spell (opinionated), while on the other hand, an opening hand with one generally means it is a guaranteed no cast.
What I think it comes down to is that at any point beyond your opening hand and land, Thunderous Wrath becomes a very very potent burn spell, but I don't really have an answer for what I would do if I had one in hand, without being forced to run cards like Faithless Looting that I would really prefer not to.
Yeah that deck is nuts against burn in general. The thing I tried out against this deck is Leyline of Punishment + Volcanic Fallout and I have 4 FotBH main so that helps a lot. Bump is really good. I personally think black is worth splashing, but not white. Yeah it's nice to break enchantments, but I don't think it's worth it.
UG UG Neo-Dredge GU
Modern:
W Soul Sistas W
R Red Deck Wins R
U Fish U
Legacy:
G Elves! G
And what do you get? An extra 2 damage out of your 1-mana spell, yes that's amazing. But the other percentage of the time, it's uncastable, dead in your hand, and is worth 0 damage effectively. Which means that, if your chances of Miracling it are, say 50% (they are not, I'm simply approximating here), than the average damage you're dealing with Wrath is 2.5. Even if you Miracle it more than half the time (unlikely), than you're still only getting roughly 3 points of damage out of it on average. The times where it just sits in your hand, rotting away while you have 3-4 mana, are not worth the times you pay 1 for 5.
We're never going to hit 6 mana, realistically. If Thunderous Wrath cost 4, I'd say run it. But 6 is too much, and we have plenty of other options for burn spells without needing to get greedy.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I'm looking into dabbling into Modern and I've decided (along with a push from my friends) into picking Burn. I love Burn, I've been loving Legacy Burn for as long as I've known the deck.
My plan with the deck is to invest what little money I have into it and acquire pieces from there. If and when I complete the deck, I then make the transition into Legacy Burn. Sounds like a plan.
However, I'm working on a tight budget and this is the list I came up with:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Shard Volley
4 Incinerate
4 Searing Blaze
3 Burst Lightning
2 Flames of the Blood Hand
3 Spark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Hellspark Elemental
Lands:
18 Mountain
2 Teetering Peaks
2 Volcanic Fallout
3 Combust
4 Smash to Smithereens
2 Flames of the Blood Hand
That sums up to around $38 (just my budget) on abugames, where we plan to order our cards in a few weeks.
Any suggestions and last minute orders you guys might want me to consider? Thanks for the help.
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RWBoros HumansRW
EDH:
WOdric, Master Tactician - Tokens and AnthemsW
BGGlissa, the Traitor - InfectGB
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