on the subject of magma jet, like i said before, and will say again, if you have dead cards you need to move out of the way, dont have dead cards in the first place. That's also why 17 or 18 lands, that's right kids, dont run lands, that's how you win.
Nades are... well lets say this, you play a 1/1 goblin for 1, like nothing else, just a 1/1 goblin for 1, and you nade him, that's 5 damage across 2 cards, that's 2.5 damage per card and per mana, that's almost as good as lightning bolt. And the way priority works is that, you play the goblin, and your opponent as like path to exile or something in hand. You have priority, you summon it, it resolves, guy comes in, it's your priority again, and you nade them. See they cant even stop you for turning a 1/1 creature into almost a lightning bolt, that's pretty gay.
I completely disagree with your assessment of these two cards, yet again.
We've already established that lands are dead cards in the late game, as typical decks curve out around 3 CMC. Hell, late game against some decks, like MeleraPod or Zoo, Goblin Guides and Hellspark Elementals are also completely dead. By playing Magma Jet, I decrease the potential of me drawing those dead cards if the game gets past, say, turn five and they aren't dead yet. Have you even tested the card out yet before condemning it to the bin of unplayability? Because I have and, by far, the most effective builds were ones that included Magma Jet. The card give us the filtering elements of blue without a splash and also provides a small amount of damage on the side. How can you not love this card unless you've not tested it yet?
Okay, again, typically if you're playing 1/1 Goblins, then you're not playing burn. Without going outside of the archetype to retrieve examples from, how is this card good for our deck? You advocate not playing "dead cards", but then suggest one that is highly conditional on having a card out on the battlefield at the moment we have the Grenade in our hand. What happens if you don't draw your Goblin Guide before you draw your Grenade? What happens if your Guide gets killed before you draw your Grenade? What if you only need a small amount of damage to kill your opponent this turn, have no on board presence, and draw Grenade? In every single case except when you've got a certain board presence, Goblin Grenade is a completely dead card. I'm sorry, but in my opinion, this card is still absolutely atrocious in a Burn deck. If Goblin Grenade can be played effectively in your deck, more power to you, but more than likely, you're not playing Burn.
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lands arent completely dead cards after turn 5, you use them for using shard volley or the super late game of flashback bump in the night. you still dont run 20 of them tho
I mean my definition of burn is effective damage, until the opponent is dead. now obviously im not gonna be playing actual 1/1 goblins for 1, im gonna play an unblockable goblin for 1. i actually worked out the math, the chances of you drawing nades but not drawing goblins, at least in my deck, is very low, but then again, i'm running 11 of them. As far as effectiveness is concerned, check out the post earlier in the thread i made about math. we have a very limited amount of resources to work with, cus past turn 5, you either lost or you're playing RDW.
For 10 mana, you have to be able to perform 7 actions, and that 7 actions need to yield around 20 damage. Now, we've both agreed on the good nukes, all of the bolts, so the difference in experience we have is purpose cards and creatures. VS our worst match up, mid range, they will have blockers, that's just how it works. The less you need to rely on creatures to do the work, the better.
PS: I have actually tested with magma jets, and it's still ass... lol.
Life gain is something that I expect more and more of the meta to have in the post-banning era, especially with Zoo being the probable top dog. Flames of the Blood Hand is really, really good against Soul Sisters, MWC, and, what I consider to be one of the top combo decks in the format at this time, MeliraPod. Think of it this way; the two elements of Magic that hurt Mono-Red Burn the most is damage prevention and life gain, both of which are negated by Flames of the Blood Hand. Honestly, in most games that I've played with this deck (which, admittedly, hasn't been much yet), Flames has given me huge swings of life totals. For example, responding to a Kitchen Finks (which has been showing up recently), with a Flames nets you seven points of damage. For three mana, I think that's an extremely favorable trade for us. Honestly, I feel like Flames is deserving of its position. Honestly, I think it deserves its 4-of spot until the meta develops more.
Getting rid of Dismembers in the sideboard sounds pretty bad, in my opinion. How else do you plan on interacting with KikiTwin? Dismember provides the most economical solution to KikiTwin and, again, is really deserving of it's spot in the side.
Thanks for the suggestions, though, and hopefully I've give some rational to my choices :).
I honestly don't think there is any need to worry about Melira. Comboing out against a deck that has 16 Lightning Bolt variants is hard when your combo is based on creatures with very low toughness.
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Modern (I collect the format):
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron WDeath and Taxes WSoul Sisters RWG Pod Combo URSplinter Twin URStorm RBurn
I used to be skeptical about Magma Jet. Then I took a look at the best Legacy burn builds and decided to try it for an extended period.
Conclusion? Never play any Legacy/Modern burn deck without the card.
I mean, the card is a staple in Legacy where you have better burn spells than in Modern. So, you lose some of the best spells (Chain Lightning, Fireblast, Sulfuric Vortex), must play subpar burn like Incinerate and do not use the card selection you have at hand? No way.
I just wanted to try out Hell's Thunder since I got a foil playset. I don't doubt that goblin guide is the better choice though. Slagstorm is in the SB because I can't seem to find any Flamebreaks at my local stores. The damage/mana ratio on needle drop sucks but being able to cantrip off marauders leaving play or after hitting with a suspended rift bolt seems nice so I thought I'd try it out. Thoughts?
I like the idea of using Needle Drop and actually have it in one of my RDW builds. Once I began using Magma Jet in burn I dropped the idea of adding it, though.
Hell's Thunder is nice but, IMHO, you'll miss Goblin Guide a lot.
I never liked needle drop. It was occasionally the finishing blow to a 3/4 Tarmogoyf, but I'd rather just have a real spell. If you really want to just run a 56 card deck, there's always Street Wraith.
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Counter spells stop everything. It's the condom Trojan dreams of making. But like condoms, if you don't have one, you still keep on playing and take the risk. Most of us wouldn't be here if this wasn't a fact.
I like Hell's Thunder, but I would never drop Goblin Guide for it. I keep Hell's Thunder as a 2 of at the top of my mana curve (along with 3x Blightning and 3x Flamebreak).
I like Hell's Thunder, but I would never drop Goblin Guide for it. I keep Hell's Thunder as a 2 of at the top of my mana curve (along with 3x Blightning and 3x Flamebreak).
Needle Drop is horrible. Dont use it.
Yeah tried a few games with needle drop and just went back to my old list lol. Does anyone think Figure of Destiny has any place in the MD as a 2 or 3 of?
I like Figure, although he is more of a long term plan. This deck wants to win quick. Maybe just a 2 of in case you end up stuck in games that get drawn out for some reason.
Figure of Destiny is a good mana sink for the mid-late game. Burn shouldn't need it, I think. For RDW it's nice, but I still prefer Kargan Dragonlord for that function.
What do you think?
I see some people playing Magus of the Scroll, but I find that card very situational. Also thinking of playing Figure/Kargan. Even Ball Lightning and Hell's Thunder are on my consideration list.
Also, I know I lack fetches, but I dont have them. If some find it my way I will add them.
just curious, what do you guys feel is the minimum of lands? Is 18 too few? Or should it be 20? I find personally if I draw more than 4 lands, I feel like I'm flooding, so I'm trying to play as minimal lands in the deck as possible.
I am running 21 because I want to be able to hit 3 land consistently. Getting stuck on 2 lands with Blightning, Hell's Thunder or Flamebreak in hand can be a drag.
As far as a minimum, well I wouldnt go below 18.
18/60 = .3, so drawing 10 cards will average you 3 land. If on the draw, you will hit 10 cards by turn 3, 9 cards on the play gives you less than average odds of hitting 3 land. If you mulligan it gets worse. Thats why I run a little more.
I've been testing a lot with a BR Burn deck on Cockatrice for Modern, and it has played exceptionally well. My only 2 losses since I've made the deck about two weeks ago, with a couple of matches per day, have been to Bant. Turn 1 Noble Hierarch into turn 2 Rhox War Monk, into turn 3 Rafiq is really hard to beat as Burn.
Dark Confidant is insane, and enough reason to run black in itself, but with Bump in the Night being another Lava Spike (and flashback-able if the game goes late), I think that playing Burn without black in Modern is just handi-capping yourself.
And that's not even mentioning the sideboard options that black gives you: Rain of Gore destroys any hopes that Bant, Soul Sisters, etc. have of even staying in the game, and Thoughtseize handily takes care of most combo decks.
I actually just recently cut Hellspark Elemental after tons of disappointing performances game after game. I added in Magma Jet to fill the gap, and I've been nothing but impressed. The fact that it lets you shift through your deck, weeding out lands, or even just setting up a nice Confidant flip, all while Shocking just makes it amazing.
Hellspark was just plain bad in most of my experiences. Sure, sometimes it was Incinerate with flashback (which, honestly, isn't even that impressive to start with), but many times, I would draw it off the top on a clogged board state, and just look at our life totals, and if it had been practically any burn spell instead, the game would be over.
So, let me know what you guys think of the deck, and any changes you would make. I highly recommend giving it a spin.
Also, don't be surprised by the occasional turn 3 wins.
I like this build...why no Blightning? I would think its pretty disruptive as your hand stays full while you can discard 2 from theirs.
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I like current block formats the most.
Its so limited to its power scale against other formats.
Block constructed should be a more competitive format like it was back in Champions or Ravnica.
I like this build...why no Blightning? I would think its pretty disruptive as your hand stays full while you can discard 2 from theirs.
Blightning is just too slow for Burn. Why should I care about their hand if I could just be killing them faster instead? Flames of the Blood Hand is already pushing the limit for the mana cost, and I'm considering going to 3 instead and adding another cheap burn. Blightning does less damage than that, so I wouldn't really consider it.
I suppose it might be sideboard-able against heavy control or slow combo, but really it's just not enough damage for its high cost, and by the time it's disrupting, they probably have plenty of useless cards in hand to discard instead, which is why I have Thoughtseize in the board, so that I get what I need to get from them rather than hoping they pitch something useful to Blightning.
Also, the fact that it's pretty mediocre against aggro, and Zoo is one of the most prevalent decks in the format makes it a bad choice in my opinion.
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I completely disagree with your assessment of these two cards, yet again.
We've already established that lands are dead cards in the late game, as typical decks curve out around 3 CMC. Hell, late game against some decks, like MeleraPod or Zoo, Goblin Guides and Hellspark Elementals are also completely dead. By playing Magma Jet, I decrease the potential of me drawing those dead cards if the game gets past, say, turn five and they aren't dead yet. Have you even tested the card out yet before condemning it to the bin of unplayability? Because I have and, by far, the most effective builds were ones that included Magma Jet. The card give us the filtering elements of blue without a splash and also provides a small amount of damage on the side. How can you not love this card unless you've not tested it yet?
Okay, again, typically if you're playing 1/1 Goblins, then you're not playing burn. Without going outside of the archetype to retrieve examples from, how is this card good for our deck? You advocate not playing "dead cards", but then suggest one that is highly conditional on having a card out on the battlefield at the moment we have the Grenade in our hand. What happens if you don't draw your Goblin Guide before you draw your Grenade? What happens if your Guide gets killed before you draw your Grenade? What if you only need a small amount of damage to kill your opponent this turn, have no on board presence, and draw Grenade? In every single case except when you've got a certain board presence, Goblin Grenade is a completely dead card. I'm sorry, but in my opinion, this card is still absolutely atrocious in a Burn deck. If Goblin Grenade can be played effectively in your deck, more power to you, but more than likely, you're not playing Burn.
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lands arent completely dead cards after turn 5, you use them for using shard volley or the super late game of flashback bump in the night. you still dont run 20 of them tho
I mean my definition of burn is effective damage, until the opponent is dead. now obviously im not gonna be playing actual 1/1 goblins for 1, im gonna play an unblockable goblin for 1. i actually worked out the math, the chances of you drawing nades but not drawing goblins, at least in my deck, is very low, but then again, i'm running 11 of them. As far as effectiveness is concerned, check out the post earlier in the thread i made about math. we have a very limited amount of resources to work with, cus past turn 5, you either lost or you're playing RDW.
For 10 mana, you have to be able to perform 7 actions, and that 7 actions need to yield around 20 damage. Now, we've both agreed on the good nukes, all of the bolts, so the difference in experience we have is purpose cards and creatures. VS our worst match up, mid range, they will have blockers, that's just how it works. The less you need to rely on creatures to do the work, the better.
PS: I have actually tested with magma jets, and it's still ass... lol.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
Conclusion? Never play any Legacy/Modern burn deck without the card.
I mean, the card is a staple in Legacy where you have better burn spells than in Modern. So, you lose some of the best spells (Chain Lightning, Fireblast, Sulfuric Vortex), must play subpar burn like Incinerate and do not use the card selection you have at hand? No way.
About life gain (Kitchen Finks etc), maybe Pulse of the Forge is better than Flames of the Blood Hand. Must try it yet.
Don't. Flames is more useful, and Pulse doesn't do **** if you already burned them once or twice.
Join the Poetry Running Contest!
12x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Arid Mesa
Creatures - 12
4x Keldon Marauders
4x Hellspark Elemental
4x Hell's Thunder
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Rift Bolt
4x Incinerate
4x Needle Drop
4x Magma Jet
4x Lava Spike
4x Shard Volley
3x Tormod's Crypt
4x Combust
2x Dismember
4x Smash to Smithereens
2x Slagstorm
I just wanted to try out Hell's Thunder since I got a foil playset. I don't doubt that goblin guide is the better choice though. Slagstorm is in the SB because I can't seem to find any Flamebreaks at my local stores. The damage/mana ratio on needle drop sucks but being able to cantrip off marauders leaving play or after hitting with a suspended rift bolt seems nice so I thought I'd try it out. Thoughts?
Modern: - W Martyr Proc - R// Favorite Creatures.dec - R/ Landfall Boros
Legacy: B Mono B Jank- R Burn - U/ Tezz Affinity - U Merfolk - R// Delver
Hell's Thunder is nice but, IMHO, you'll miss Goblin Guide a lot.
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Needle Drop is horrible. Dont use it.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Yeah tried a few games with needle drop and just went back to my old list lol. Does anyone think Figure of Destiny has any place in the MD as a 2 or 3 of?
11x Mountain
4x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
Creatures - 14
4x Goblin Guide
4x Hellspark elemental
4x Keldon Marauders
2x Hell's Thunder
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Shard Volley
4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
4x Magma Jet
4x Incinerate
3x Flames of the Blood Hand
Modern: - W Martyr Proc - R// Favorite Creatures.dec - R/ Landfall Boros
Legacy: B Mono B Jank- R Burn - U/ Tezz Affinity - U Merfolk - R// Delver
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
20 mountain
Creatures:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Keldon Marauders
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Hellspark Elemental
Spells:
4x Shard Volley
3x Shrine of Burning Rage
2x Flames of the Blood Hand
4x Magma Jet
4x Lava Spike
4x Rift bolt
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Everlasting Torment
3x Smash To Smithereens
3x Flamebreak
3x Blood Moon
3x Relic of Progenitus
What do you think?
I see some people playing Magus of the Scroll, but I find that card very situational. Also thinking of playing Figure/Kargan. Even Ball Lightning and Hell's Thunder are on my consideration list.
Also, I know I lack fetches, but I dont have them. If some find it my way I will add them.
As far as a minimum, well I wouldnt go below 18.
18/60 = .3, so drawing 10 cards will average you 3 land. If on the draw, you will hit 10 cards by turn 3, 9 cards on the play gives you less than average odds of hitting 3 land. If you mulligan it gets worse. Thats why I run a little more.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
But anyway, here's the list:
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Bump in the Night
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Rift Bolt
4 Flames of the Blood Hand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
3 Blood Crypt
4 Thoughtseize
4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Flamebreak
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Rain of Gore
Dark Confidant is insane, and enough reason to run black in itself, but with Bump in the Night being another Lava Spike (and flashback-able if the game goes late), I think that playing Burn without black in Modern is just handi-capping yourself.
And that's not even mentioning the sideboard options that black gives you: Rain of Gore destroys any hopes that Bant, Soul Sisters, etc. have of even staying in the game, and Thoughtseize handily takes care of most combo decks.
I actually just recently cut Hellspark Elemental after tons of disappointing performances game after game. I added in Magma Jet to fill the gap, and I've been nothing but impressed. The fact that it lets you shift through your deck, weeding out lands, or even just setting up a nice Confidant flip, all while Shocking just makes it amazing.
Hellspark was just plain bad in most of my experiences. Sure, sometimes it was Incinerate with flashback (which, honestly, isn't even that impressive to start with), but many times, I would draw it off the top on a clogged board state, and just look at our life totals, and if it had been practically any burn spell instead, the game would be over.
So, let me know what you guys think of the deck, and any changes you would make. I highly recommend giving it a spin.
Also, don't be surprised by the occasional turn 3 wins.
I like current block formats the most.
Its so limited to its power scale against other formats.
Block constructed should be a more competitive format like it was back in Champions or Ravnica.
Sig by DD Awie by CC
Blightning is just too slow for Burn. Why should I care about their hand if I could just be killing them faster instead? Flames of the Blood Hand is already pushing the limit for the mana cost, and I'm considering going to 3 instead and adding another cheap burn. Blightning does less damage than that, so I wouldn't really consider it.
I suppose it might be sideboard-able against heavy control or slow combo, but really it's just not enough damage for its high cost, and by the time it's disrupting, they probably have plenty of useless cards in hand to discard instead, which is why I have Thoughtseize in the board, so that I get what I need to get from them rather than hoping they pitch something useful to Blightning.
Also, the fact that it's pretty mediocre against aggro, and Zoo is one of the most prevalent decks in the format makes it a bad choice in my opinion.