I went 3-0-1 with the list below at a modern event tonight ( Usually 40 people). Last match I drew because the person was late for a dinner and I didn't feel like being mean =). I think I have become fond of the strategy where game 1 you max out with lords and just beat face and games 2 and 3 you bring in your tech. What are all your thoughts on this as some of the more recent successful lists appear to have the same plan.
i've been playing a 31 creature list inspired by Rietzl's GP list online the last couple days and been doing really well in the 8-mans
i like the balls out aggro game 1, then being able to interact accordingly after sideboarding
i haven't run phantasmal image in quite a while but it has been surprisingly rewarding when used carefully
I like this a lot! Good work. I have been hoping for a merfolk to be printed that cantrips like silvergill does, or another bomb like Master or Waves, or another one like Harbinger or Cursecatcher that can interact. When I saw Paul Rietzl's list, it hit me... Phantasmal Image is literally any and all of those in this deck. Of course it can only become something on the field, but that is usually good enough with our amount of redundancy.
Just keep swimming!
Pro Tip: Use Echoing Truth on the creature that Phantasmal Image has copied, that way you can bounce it without targeting. This works particularly well with Silvergill Adept, allowing explosive Card Advantage, or if you have made phantasmal image as a copy of something big to stall, like a Tasigur. A friend of mine has done this for years with Lord of the Unreal in a casual Illusions deck. Funny how it comes back around to a Tier 1 deck
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"It's not a matter of deserving. It's a matter of strength. The power to hold versus the power to take."
-Sygg, River Cutthroat
Yes you can as long as the trigger from Harbinger isnt resolved yet.
Even with Apostle's blessing? As far as i know, harbinger doesnt Damage, Enchant, Block, or Target the creature, you as the player do. Meaning apostles on protection from blue doesnt actually work.
I hate to answer a question with uncertainty, but here goes. I believe it is true that you can only respond to the tapping of the vial and not the entering the battlefield of Harbinger. In response to the Merfolk player tapping Aether Vial, but before a creature enters the battlefield, you have the opportunity to respond. Which means, you won't know if they will be playing a Harbinger, some other creature, or none at all. At that time I believe you could play your instant, and declare your protection color if you respond with Apostle's Blessing. After your response, I believe the Merfolk player can choose not to lay down Harbinger if you declared some sort of protection. Then they can bounce it on their turn.
Maybe we can get some of the more experienced players on the forum to confirm that. Thanks for your question. It is another reason for me to pause after tapping Aether Vial to ensure there is no response.
I hate to answer a question with uncertainty, but here goes. I believe it is true that you can only respond to the tapping of the vial and not the entering the battlefield of Harbinger. In response to the Merfolk player tapping Aether Vial, but before a creature enters the battlefield, you have the opportunity to respond. Which means, you won't know if they will be playing a Harbinger, some other creature, or none at all. At that time I believe you could play your instant, and declare your protection color if you respond with Apostle's Blessing. After your response, I believe the Merfolk player can choose not to lay down Harbinger if you declared some sort of protection. Then they can bounce it on their turn.
Maybe we can get some of the more experienced players on the forum to confirm that. Thanks for your question. It is another reason for me to pause after tapping Aether Vial to ensure there is no response.
Thanks for the response, I definitely need a bit of help with the wording on Harbinger. It's confusing regarding protection/hexproof.
Of course Harbinger does target a creature! "you may return TARGET tapped creature..." and since the Harbinger is blue... you can prevent it with giving the creature protection from blue.
Be aware however, that it can still be blocked by nonblue creatures (Mutavaults are no artifacts) or targeted with dismember.
Just watch a few games from Nikachus Youtubechannel. Watching games from Magic Online helps you understand the triggers more clearly.
I feel like you could use the information.
The wording is a little confusing on harbinger. It sounds as if the player receives the ability to return a tapped creature. It says "You may return target tapped creature". So is Harbinger the one targeting (similar to go for the throat) or is it the player?
Rephrase : Does Harbinger directly target a creature, or does the player target the tapped creature?
I hate to answer a question with uncertainty, but here goes. I believe it is true that you can only respond to the tapping of the vial and not the entering the battlefield of Harbinger. In response to the Merfolk player tapping Aether Vial, but before a creature enters the battlefield, you have the opportunity to respond. Which means, you won't know if they will be playing a Harbinger, some other creature, or none at all. At that time I believe you could play your instant, and declare your protection color if you respond with Apostle's Blessing. After your response, I believe the Merfolk player can choose not to lay down Harbinger if you declared some sort of protection. Then they can bounce it on their turn.
Maybe we can get some of the more experienced players on the forum to confirm that. Thanks for your question. It is another reason for me to pause after tapping Aether Vial to ensure there is no response.
If the Player uses Vial, the Trigger goes onto the stack. The opponent can then respond with whatever he wants. Hallowed Moonlight for example. When the Vial trigger resolves, the Merfolk player can chose to find a creature and bring that creature into play. If Moonlight was cast the Merfolkplayer obviously will chose to not find a creature or else it gets exiled. If no Moonlight got cast the creature is put into play(not cast!)
Lets say Harbinger, or Adept or Master of Waves.
When those creatures hit the battlefield, those creatures put their own triggers onto the stack. Commonly those Triggers are known as ETB or enter the battlefield effects.
Bounce, draw or put tokens into play are such ETB Triggers.
The enemy can now respond to those Triggers. Hallowed Moonlight(against MoW = no Tokens) or Apostles Blessing can now be cast.
Blessing resolves first(on top of the ETB Triggers) and gives the Infect creature Protection from blue.
After that the ETB Trigger resolves and when checking for a legal target he fails to do so(protection from blue) and "fizzles" as we call it.
This happens when a spell does not have a legal target anymore( if it has two targets and one is still legal, the spell still resolves). All instances of the card do not resolve and the card goes into the graveyard unless it says otherwise.
A nice routine that can be seen in Modern in which this rule is used is this one:
You can use remand to bring back your spell against an opposing Cryptic Command(counter/draw). In this case, the Command loses all his legal targets(the spell got remanded) and therefore you are not allowed to draw the card from cryptic. So instead of countering your spell and drawing a card he loses the cryptic, does not get to draw his card and you keep your spell he wanted to counter and you draw a card for your remand.
If the Player uses Vial, the Trigger goes onto the stack. The opponent can then respond with whatever he wants. Hallowed Moonlight for example. When the Vial trigger resolves, the Merfolk player can chose to find a creature and bring that creature into play. If Moonlight was cast the Merfolkplayer obviously will chose to not find a creature or else it gets exiled. If no Moonlight got cast the creature is put into play(not cast!)
Lets say Harbinger, or Adept or Master of Waves.
When those creatures hit the battlefield, those creatures put their own triggers onto the stack. Commonly those Triggers are known as ETB or enter the battlefield effects.
Bounce, draw or put tokens into play are such ETB Triggers.
The enemy can now respond to those Triggers. Hallowed Moonlight(against MoW = no Tokens) or Apostles Blessing can now be cast.
Blessing resolves first(on top of the ETB Triggers) and gives the Infect creature Protection from blue.
After that the ETB Trigger resolves and when checking for a legal target he fails to do so(protection from blue) and "fizzles" as we call it.
This happens when a spell does not have a legal target anymore( if it has two targets and one is still legal, the spell still resolves). All instances of the card do not resolve and the card goes into the graveyard unless it says otherwise.
A nice routine that can be seen in Modern in which this rule is used is this one:
You can use remand to bring back your spell against an opposing Cryptic Command(counter/draw). In this case, the Command loses all his legal targets(the spell got remanded) and therefore you are not allowed to draw the card from cryptic. So instead of countering your spell and drawing a card he loses the cryptic, does not get to draw his card and you keep your spell he wanted to counter and you draw a card for your remand.
Yes you can as long as the trigger from Harbinger isnt resolved yet.
Even with Apostle's blessing? As far as i know, harbinger doesnt Damage, Enchant, Block, or Target the creature, you as the player do. Meaning apostles on protection from blue doesnt actually work.
Yes you can as long as the trigger from Harbinger isnt resolved yet.
Even with Apostle's blessing? As far as i know, harbinger doesnt Damage, Enchant, Block, or Target the creature, you as the player do. Meaning apostles on protection from blue doesnt actually work.
It also says "You may return..." That's the confusing part. It makes it seem like the player is using the ability and not the creature. Apostles only gives protection from a color which players dont have, thats why i wasnt sure if apostles blessing works to give protection from the bounce. With the last few responses it makes sense though, thanks everyone
Yes you can as long as the trigger from Harbinger isnt resolved yet.
Even with Apostle's blessing? As far as i know, harbinger doesnt Damage, Enchant, Block, or Target the creature, you as the player do. Meaning apostles on protection from blue doesnt actually work.
It also says "You may return..." That's the confusing part. It makes it seem like the player is using the ability and not the creature. Apostles only gives protection from a color which players dont have, thats why i wasnt sure if apostles blessing works to give protection from the bounce. With the last few responses it makes sense though, thanks everyone
80000 other cards say "you may" but none of them grant an ability to a "colorless player". That's not a thing
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Modern U Merfolk U WUBRGPeopleGRBUW U Turbo Turns U UB Fae BU WBG Aristocrats GBW
603.5. Some triggered abilities’ effects are optional (they contain “may,” as in “At the beginning of
your upkeep, you may draw a card”). These abilities go on the stack when they trigger, regardless of
whether their controller intends to exercise the ability’s option or not. The choice is made when the
ability resolves. Likewise, triggered abilities that have an effect “unless” something is true or a
player chooses to do something will go on the stack normally; the “unless” part of the ability is
dealt with when the ability resolves.
702.16b A permanent or player with protection can’t be targeted by spells with the stated quality
and can’t be targeted by abilities from a source with the stated quality.
Harbinger of the Tides is the source of the return ability. The "You may" portion only indicates that the player controlling the ability can decide whether the ability gets implemented or not. Case Closed.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
The word "may" has everything to do with it. If it were not for the "may", this creature would be uncastable as long as the defending player doesn't have a tapped creature. As it adds a clause to ETB'ing.
Has nothing to do with what kind of colour you have as a player, just with what you control and what your opponent controls.
No need for semantics, card is worded in a good way.
This isn't true either. Tidebinder Mage doesn't say "may" but you can still cast it when your opponent controls no valid targets.
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Modern U Merfolk U WUBRGPeopleGRBUW U Turbo Turns U UB Fae BU WBG Aristocrats GBW
Guys, which is worse? Take a blood moon or a Choke?
My issue is if I play more non basic islands or just a bunch of basic islands (along with caverns and mutavaults).
603.5. Some triggered abilities’ effects are optional (they contain “may,” as in “At the beginning of
your upkeep, you may draw a card”). These abilities go on the stack when they trigger, regardless of
whether their controller intends to exercise the ability’s option or not. The choice is made when the
ability resolves. Likewise, triggered abilities that have an effect “unless” something is true or a
player chooses to do something will go on the stack normally; the “unless” part of the ability is
dealt with when the ability resolves.
702.16b A permanent or player with protection can’t be targeted by spells with the stated quality
and can’t be targeted by abilities from a source with the stated quality.
Harbinger of the Tides is the source of the return ability. The "You may" portion only indicates that the player controlling the ability can decide whether the ability gets implemented or not. Case Closed.
This is why you're the man. Clear, rules-driven suggestions with the actual rules to back it up.
Have you done any Merfolk brewing lately?
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"It's not a matter of deserving. It's a matter of strength. The power to hold versus the power to take."
-Sygg, River Cutthroat
Have not been looking too hard at my Merfolk deck since the GP, but my super secret tech Displacement Wave was able to prove itself worthy of a slot in the board. Right now I'm focused on getting my level 2 judge requirements completed. I do still plan on playing once or twice a week while I'm studying.
Running eight sea effects is not as appealing now that the fish have arrived in force
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I've read carefully your reports and seen that merfolk is doing great so far ! I'll try Paul Rietzl list(with a bunch of changes in the side for my LGS meta).
I just wanted to have some more insight about his list what do you think about it ?
I personally like the way to go all in with a big bunch of creatures in game 1 and then organizing a proper way to win one of the 2 last game considering that the deck we are facing have some kind of sideboard against us..(possibly for 2-0 of course!)
Guys, which is worse? Take a blood moon or a Choke?
My issue is if I play more non basic islands or just a bunch of basic islands (along with caverns and mutavaults).
One opponent at the GP gave me some feedback saying they did not play Choke against me because I was turning their land base into islands with Spreading Seas and Sea's Claim. At the time I was running 4 SS and 2 SC. Just an additional data point to consider.
To answer that question we need to know about your manabase. If you run a lot of islands, choke is worse. If you run next to no basics bloodmoon gets worse.
I mean that's why we try to split basics and nonbasics as equal as possible.
Well, I have all 20 lands of both builds, that's why I am curious about what mana base to follow. I don't want to splash to white, but I'd use white islands if choke would be a problem. Hou you'd build a safer mana base?
Guys, which is worse? Take a blood moon or a Choke?
My issue is if I play more non basic islands or just a bunch of basic islands (along with caverns and mutavaults).
One opponent at the GP gave me some feedback saying they did not play Choke against me because I was turning their land base into islands with Spreading Seas and Sea's Claim. At the time I was running 4 SS and 2 SC. Just an additional data point to consider.
Good point. We'll be able to shut them down accordingly with their own cards.
I like this a lot! Good work. I have been hoping for a merfolk to be printed that cantrips like silvergill does, or another bomb like Master or Waves, or another one like Harbinger or Cursecatcher that can interact. When I saw Paul Rietzl's list, it hit me... Phantasmal Image is literally any and all of those in this deck. Of course it can only become something on the field, but that is usually good enough with our amount of redundancy.
Just keep swimming!
Pro Tip: Use Echoing Truth on the creature that Phantasmal Image has copied, that way you can bounce it without targeting. This works particularly well with Silvergill Adept, allowing explosive Card Advantage, or if you have made phantasmal image as a copy of something big to stall, like a Tasigur. A friend of mine has done this for years with Lord of the Unreal in a casual Illusions deck. Funny how it comes back around to a Tier 1 deck
-Sygg, River Cutthroat
I play all Cavern of Souls decks
If i attack with a blighted agent and pump with Groundswell, my opponent vials in a Harbinger to bounce him, can i play Apostle's blessing or vines of vastwood to prevent my creature from being bounced?
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
Even with Apostle's blessing? As far as i know, harbinger doesnt Damage, Enchant, Block, or Target the creature, you as the player do. Meaning apostles on protection from blue doesnt actually work.
Can anyone confirm this?
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
I hate to answer a question with uncertainty, but here goes. I believe it is true that you can only respond to the tapping of the vial and not the entering the battlefield of Harbinger. In response to the Merfolk player tapping Aether Vial, but before a creature enters the battlefield, you have the opportunity to respond. Which means, you won't know if they will be playing a Harbinger, some other creature, or none at all. At that time I believe you could play your instant, and declare your protection color if you respond with Apostle's Blessing. After your response, I believe the Merfolk player can choose not to lay down Harbinger if you declared some sort of protection. Then they can bounce it on their turn.
Maybe we can get some of the more experienced players on the forum to confirm that. Thanks for your question. It is another reason for me to pause after tapping Aether Vial to ensure there is no response.
Thanks for the response, I definitely need a bit of help with the wording on Harbinger. It's confusing regarding protection/hexproof.
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
The wording is a little confusing on harbinger. It sounds as if the player receives the ability to return a tapped creature. It says "You may return target tapped creature". So is Harbinger the one targeting (similar to go for the throat) or is it the player?
Rephrase : Does Harbinger directly target a creature, or does the player target the tapped creature?
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
Perfect thank you for the response!
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
Thanks for the clear explanation!
it says "target" on the card...
Harbinger of the Tides
U Merfolk U
WUBRGPeopleGRBUW
U Turbo Turns U
UB Fae BU
WBG Aristocrats GBW
It also says "You may return..." That's the confusing part. It makes it seem like the player is using the ability and not the creature. Apostles only gives protection from a color which players dont have, thats why i wasnt sure if apostles blessing works to give protection from the bounce. With the last few responses it makes sense though, thanks everyone
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
80000 other cards say "you may" but none of them grant an ability to a "colorless player". That's not a thing
U Merfolk U
WUBRGPeopleGRBUW
U Turbo Turns U
UB Fae BU
WBG Aristocrats GBW
603.5. Some triggered abilities’ effects are optional (they contain “may,” as in “At the beginning of
your upkeep, you may draw a card”). These abilities go on the stack when they trigger, regardless of
whether their controller intends to exercise the ability’s option or not. The choice is made when the
ability resolves. Likewise, triggered abilities that have an effect “unless” something is true or a
player chooses to do something will go on the stack normally; the “unless” part of the ability is
dealt with when the ability resolves.
702.16b A permanent or player with protection can’t be targeted by spells with the stated quality
and can’t be targeted by abilities from a source with the stated quality.
Harbinger of the Tides is the source of the return ability. The "You may" portion only indicates that the player controlling the ability can decide whether the ability gets implemented or not. Case Closed.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
UMerfolkU
BWBW TokensBW
This isn't true either. Tidebinder Mage doesn't say "may" but you can still cast it when your opponent controls no valid targets.
U Merfolk U
WUBRGPeopleGRBUW
U Turbo Turns U
UB Fae BU
WBG Aristocrats GBW
My issue is if I play more non basic islands or just a bunch of basic islands (along with caverns and mutavaults).
This is why you're the man. Clear, rules-driven suggestions with the actual rules to back it up.
Have you done any Merfolk brewing lately?
-Sygg, River Cutthroat
I play all Cavern of Souls decks
Running eight sea effects is not as appealing now that the fish have arrived in force
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I've read carefully your reports and seen that merfolk is doing great so far ! I'll try Paul Rietzl list(with a bunch of changes in the side for my LGS meta).
I just wanted to have some more insight about his list what do you think about it ?
I personally like the way to go all in with a big bunch of creatures in game 1 and then organizing a proper way to win one of the 2 last game considering that the deck we are facing have some kind of sideboard against us..(possibly for 2-0 of course!)
Looking forward to your answers fish lovers !
One opponent at the GP gave me some feedback saying they did not play Choke against me because I was turning their land base into islands with Spreading Seas and Sea's Claim. At the time I was running 4 SS and 2 SC. Just an additional data point to consider.
Well, I have all 20 lands of both builds, that's why I am curious about what mana base to follow. I don't want to splash to white, but I'd use white islands if choke would be a problem. Hou you'd build a safer mana base?
Good point. We'll be able to shut them down accordingly with their own cards.