Anything you would change in your list after the GP? Underperformers and Overperformers?
Relic of Progenitus and Dispel were very good. Maybe Relic over performed because I played so many Grixis decks but it really chops a leg off if they can't use their graveyard. I could see siding in Dispel against all CoCo decks and Blue decks from now on. Maybe -1 Kira, -1 Spell Pierce/Remand +1 Relic +1 Dispel. I would have to play the deck some more to know what is really useless.
A really nice guy and we had a long talk about main decked Chalice of the Voids in Legacy Merfolk
Verdict?
I would have to test it online to be sure but I'm certain the only theoretical way to make Merfolk compete in Legacy is to maindeck 4x Chalice. Merfolk is simply the best shell for Chalice and the card affects every archetype except for maybe MUD and Death and Taxes.
Play
-4 Aether Vial
-4 Spreading Seas
-3 Tidebinder Mage
-1 Merrow Reejerey
+2 Tectonic Edge
+2 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
+3 Spell Pierce
+2 Remand
+1 Dispel
+1 Dismember
+1 Master of Waves
Draw
-4 Spreading Seas
-3 Tidebinder Mage
-3 Merrow Reejerey
+2 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
+1 Master of Waves
+3 Spell Pierce
+2 Remand
+1 Dispel
+1 Dismember
Relics are great. With an empty graveyard there is no creatures to buy back with Kolaghan's command or flashback with Snapcaster Mage, or use up for Grim Lavamancer.
I like the idea of vials on the draw where tempo is more important but blanks are less costly. But siding them out on the play.
Really useful posts. Thanks.
Haven't played merfolk in years but always enjoyed it in legacy. Will try at this weekend at PPTQ. Going to play the exact 75 +1 Relic +1 Dispel +1 hibernate in the board. -1 Spell Pierce -1tidebinder -1 other in the board from copenhagen list.
I think it depends how many cards you play that are UU. We have our 8 lords in every list, that is a given. Then 2-4 tidebinders ups the UU count, as does 1-2 Kira. If we started running Coralhelm the UU count is even higher.
Technically if we want to cast 2 of some combination of vapor snag, swang song, and spell pierce that increased the UU count as well.
We would have to lean on vials pretty hard with more diluted lands and there are some games we just won't see them even mulling down to 5 or in the post board games they are just off or killed. Larson runs 2 fetches making his "actual" land count 20, he is just making sure he gets colored mana which is something else the ghost quarters can do.
One thing we can do is start siding out islands since we bring in tec edge or ghost quarters. We already lose to choke if they bring it in so having a few extra dead lands doesn't help us much. A land that never untaps after using it once is worse than a brown land. 20 probably isn't the magic number, but 18 is probably the bare minimum.
One other thing to keep in mind is that Muta is a land and a creature, sometimes it is not on land duty and other times it is. It is our own little mana dork, so if we are blocking or attacking with it we are actually -4 lands from Muta...or that is how I see it.
A hand of 1-2 mutas, a tec edge, and a cavern spells real trouble even with a vial. I would say 19-21 is a sweet spot based on your non-islands. Even when lists do well I think 4 tec edge is too many in the side, maybe we need to start considering oddball cards like Quicksilver Fountain or the Sea's Claim from Invitational.
We have 0 pay off cards. There is no giant fatty or X spell we can just dump mana into when we are flooded, yeah animating 3-4 Mutas is neat but in a long grindy game where we are playing off the top anyway we are just flooded. Even Master of Waves with an empty board and no hand is really bad, at least a cryptic command in other decks can time walk someone and draw a card...I don't think that is a place we need to head too in our deck, but having too much land is a serious problem as that means we aren't drawing relevant creatures.
I am sure most of us have won games with only 2 lands, I know I have on multiple occasions...even some without vial.
Question. You're on the draw. Opponent plays Abzan; first turn G/W land and a mana dork (say Noble Hierarch). You have an average/good hand, including Dismember, Aether Vial and Cursecatcher.
What do you do? Play Island>Aether Vial or Island>Dismember the Mana Dork? What is wisest?
For some reason, this is a recurring conundrum and it never seems like I make the smart decision.
Generally I play Aether Vial first, especially if you have a hand full of creatures. If you are very threat light then you could consider burning the dork.
The reason you want to play Aether Vial 95% of the time is because you're likely to draw more threats in your next 3 draw steps and Vial will help put those threats on the board in a timely manner.
How do you feel about the gyro's/nourishing shoal match up and what do you do against it? I've been running into this deck non stop and it feels almost hopeless 80% of the time even after side boarding in relics.
A late grats to the great merfolk showing at the GP!
I thought I'd chime in again on how my budget brew (current value ~ $120) is doing. I've been upgrading as I win store credit with it; this is what got me a 3-1 last Sunday:
I don't really feel like typing up anything detailed, so I'll just say what my rounds were and the MVP cards:
R1 - Win 2-0 vs BW Tokens. MVPs: Monastery Siege, Detention Sphere, Sygg, River Guide
R2 - Win 2-1 vs Affinity. MVPs: Kataki, War's Wage, Sejiri Merfolk
R3 - Loss 0-2 vs CoCo melira non-pod. MVPs: Spreading Seas did some work in G1, but they hit the combo a turn before I could hit for lethal. G2 I was out-grinded by Gavony.
R4 - Win 2-1 vs Jund. MVPs: Sejiri Merfolk, Bident of Thassa, Tidebinder Mage
I really like thw way the UW plays, at least with the budget I'm on at the moment. My shop (where I have my credit) hasn't had any silvergills in months (if ever), and no Aether Vials either ... so who knows. I've had no luck so far on the trading sites I use for getting cursecatchers/vials/caverns/silvergils/spellskites/etc...
Just the raw strength of the lords and trying out some multi-use/mode enchantments (siege, Dsphere, bident, S seas) have worked pretty well for me, so I might just put the finishing touches on this soon and leave it as a "polished budget deck", especially if the prices of vial and cavern keep getting worse.
My wife works for Hasbro, so I can't play in anything major anyway. All the stuff I play is unsanctioned, so I don't ever feel that compelled to have a strict tier-1 list. Still, any suggestions any of you guys have for me is greatly appreciated.
I am starting to like P. Image, not a fan of remand never will be. I run Spell Pierce and Swan Song with both working just fine...but I might put Dispel in
I played against Nourishing Shoal G-Vengeance and it never felt unwinnable. I held a vapor snag in hand the entire time and when he went to resolve his 1st grisle-trigger I snagged it and he dug and dug trying to get answers and just lost. Game two I did it again and when he replayed it I coped his Grisle with my P. Image and he conceded. I was honestly surprised at how weak the deck is or at least feels, maybe it was just the pilot but he gained with shoal and dug with grisle and vapor snag just shined the whole way through.
How do you feel about the gyro's/nourishing shoal match up and what do you do against it? I've been running into this deck non stop and it feels almost hopeless 80% of the time even after side boarding in relics.
What a first post. You must really hate the match up.
We are naturally a deck with small creatures that produce a reasonable clock and we have disruption. I feel good about such a match up. Side out Master of Waves, Dismember, Spreading Seas, bring in any and all counters, relics and some Tectonic edges, (so you can play creatures while holding up counter magic). You can even bring in Tidebinder mage for that dumb wurm.
How do you feel about the gyro's/nourishing shoal match up and what do you do against it? I've been running into this deck non stop and it feels almost hopeless 80% of the time even after side boarding in relics.
What a first post. You must really hate the match up.
We are naturally a deck with small creatures that produce a reasonable clock and we have disruption. I feel good about such a match up. Side out Master of Waves, Dismember, Spreading Seas, bring in any and all counters, relics and some Tectonic edges, (so you can play creatures while holding up counter magic). You can even bring in Tidebinder mage for that dumb wurm.
I don't necessarily hate it because I don't see it enough in paper magic but yeah I sort of feel like I'd rather play against affinity sometimes. I'm currently running 3 spell pierces which apparently doesn't seem to be enough. No current side board counter magic. I might try to find a spot to move in one or two dispels after reading up about the GPs.
I played against Nourishing Shoal G-Vengeance and it never felt unwinnable. I held a vapor snag in hand the entire time and when he went to resolve his 1st grisle-trigger I snagged it and he dug and dug trying to get answers and just lost. Game two I did it again and when he replayed it I coped his Grisle with my P. Image and he conceded. I was honestly surprised at how weak the deck is or at least feels, maybe it was just the pilot but he gained with shoal and dug with grisle and vapor snag just shined the whole way through.
The matchup isn't as hopeless as I originally felt when I encountered it blind at GP Charlotte, but it's not a cakewalk either. The "Plan A" of the deck is to use Gristelbrand plus Nourishing Shaul with Worldspine Worm to draw almost their whole deck, then use their free mana to cast Borborygmos Enraged and throw a half dozen or so lands at you at 3 damage a piece. But their "plan b" of just tossing Worldspine Worm at you Through the Breach once or twice, maybe with Gristelbrand to just punch face can be hard to deal with if you haven't drawn into any counter or removal. However something as simple as spell pierce may not leave them enough mana on their first attempt to go off.
I am starting to like P. Image, not a fan of remand never will be. I run Spell Pierce and Swan Song with both working just fine...but I might put Dispel in
I played against Nourishing Shoal G-Vengeance and it never felt unwinnable. I held a vapor snag in hand the entire time and when he went to resolve his 1st grisle-trigger I snagged it and he dug and dug trying to get answers and just lost. Game two I did it again and when he replayed it I coped his Grisle with my P. Image and he conceded. I was honestly surprised at how weak the deck is or at least feels, maybe it was just the pilot but he gained with shoal and dug with grisle and vapor snag just shined the whole way through.
I usually have the snag but what always ends up happening is that they respond with Geisel triggers and just go back up with a shoal. Rinse repeat until they simian into ritual into breach win con.
I'd say you did.
Verdict?
Relic of Progenitus and Dispel were very good. Maybe Relic over performed because I played so many Grixis decks but it really chops a leg off if they can't use their graveyard. I could see siding in Dispel against all CoCo decks and Blue decks from now on. Maybe -1 Kira, -1 Spell Pierce/Remand +1 Relic +1 Dispel. I would have to play the deck some more to know what is really useless.
I would have to test it online to be sure but I'm certain the only theoretical way to make Merfolk compete in Legacy is to maindeck 4x Chalice. Merfolk is simply the best shell for Chalice and the card affects every archetype except for maybe MUD and Death and Taxes.
-4 seas
+1 Dismember, +Dispel, + remand?
Are relics good?
">Helping to Invent Thopter/Depths in Old Ext
Creator of the Magic Humor Videos:
The Vintage Metagame The Original
Given my list:
20 lands
10 Island
4 Mutavault
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
3 Wanderwine Hub
25 creatures
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
3 Tidebinder Mage
3 Merrow Reejerey
3 Master of Waves
15 Spells
4 Spreading Seas
4 Aether Vial
3 Dismember
2 Vapor Snag
2 Relic of Progenitus
Sideboard
4 Tectonic Edge
2 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
3 Spell Pierce
2 Remand
1 Master of Waves
1 Dismember
1 Tidebinder Mage
1 Dispel
Play
-4 Aether Vial
-4 Spreading Seas
-3 Tidebinder Mage
-1 Merrow Reejerey
+2 Tectonic Edge
+2 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
+3 Spell Pierce
+2 Remand
+1 Dispel
+1 Dismember
+1 Master of Waves
Draw
-4 Spreading Seas
-3 Tidebinder Mage
-3 Merrow Reejerey
+2 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
+1 Master of Waves
+3 Spell Pierce
+2 Remand
+1 Dispel
+1 Dismember
Relics are great. With an empty graveyard there is no creatures to buy back with Kolaghan's command or flashback with Snapcaster Mage, or use up for Grim Lavamancer.
I like the idea of vials on the draw where tempo is more important but blanks are less costly. But siding them out on the play.
Really useful posts. Thanks.
Haven't played merfolk in years but always enjoyed it in legacy. Will try at this weekend at PPTQ. Going to play the exact 75 +1 Relic +1 Dispel +1 hibernate in the board. -1 Spell Pierce -1tidebinder -1 other in the board from copenhagen list.
">Helping to Invent Thopter/Depths in Old Ext
Creator of the Magic Humor Videos:
The Vintage Metagame The Original
Technically if we want to cast 2 of some combination of vapor snag, swang song, and spell pierce that increased the UU count as well.
We would have to lean on vials pretty hard with more diluted lands and there are some games we just won't see them even mulling down to 5 or in the post board games they are just off or killed. Larson runs 2 fetches making his "actual" land count 20, he is just making sure he gets colored mana which is something else the ghost quarters can do.
One thing we can do is start siding out islands since we bring in tec edge or ghost quarters. We already lose to choke if they bring it in so having a few extra dead lands doesn't help us much. A land that never untaps after using it once is worse than a brown land. 20 probably isn't the magic number, but 18 is probably the bare minimum.
One other thing to keep in mind is that Muta is a land and a creature, sometimes it is not on land duty and other times it is. It is our own little mana dork, so if we are blocking or attacking with it we are actually -4 lands from Muta...or that is how I see it.
A hand of 1-2 mutas, a tec edge, and a cavern spells real trouble even with a vial. I would say 19-21 is a sweet spot based on your non-islands. Even when lists do well I think 4 tec edge is too many in the side, maybe we need to start considering oddball cards like Quicksilver Fountain or the Sea's Claim from Invitational.
We have 0 pay off cards. There is no giant fatty or X spell we can just dump mana into when we are flooded, yeah animating 3-4 Mutas is neat but in a long grindy game where we are playing off the top anyway we are just flooded. Even Master of Waves with an empty board and no hand is really bad, at least a cryptic command in other decks can time walk someone and draw a card...I don't think that is a place we need to head too in our deck, but having too much land is a serious problem as that means we aren't drawing relevant creatures.
I am sure most of us have won games with only 2 lands, I know I have on multiple occasions...even some without vial.
UMerfolkU
Legacy
UMerfolkU
Commander
RWBAlesha, Who Smiles At DeathRWB
What do you do? Play Island>Aether Vial or Island>Dismember the Mana Dork? What is wisest?
For some reason, this is a recurring conundrum and it never seems like I make the smart decision.
The reason you want to play Aether Vial 95% of the time is because you're likely to draw more threats in your next 3 draw steps and Vial will help put those threats on the board in a timely manner.
I thought I'd chime in again on how my budget brew (current value ~ $120) is doing. I've been upgrading as I win store credit with it; this is what got me a 3-1 last Sunday:
3 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
7 Island
2 Plains
4 Wanderwine Hub
2 Bident of Thassa
2 Detention Sphere
2 Monastery Siege
4 Spreading Seas
2 Vapor Snag
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
3 Merfolk Sovereign
2 Mirror Entity
3 Sejiri Merfolk
1 Skywatcher Adept
3 Sygg, River Guide
4 Triton Shorestalker
2 Dispel
3 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Riptide Pilferer
1 Swan Song
3 Tidebinder Mage
I don't really feel like typing up anything detailed, so I'll just say what my rounds were and the MVP cards:
R1 - Win 2-0 vs BW Tokens. MVPs: Monastery Siege, Detention Sphere, Sygg, River Guide
R2 - Win 2-1 vs Affinity. MVPs: Kataki, War's Wage, Sejiri Merfolk
R3 - Loss 0-2 vs CoCo melira non-pod. MVPs: Spreading Seas did some work in G1, but they hit the combo a turn before I could hit for lethal. G2 I was out-grinded by Gavony.
R4 - Win 2-1 vs Jund. MVPs: Sejiri Merfolk, Bident of Thassa, Tidebinder Mage
I really like thw way the UW plays, at least with the budget I'm on at the moment. My shop (where I have my credit) hasn't had any silvergills in months (if ever), and no Aether Vials either ... so who knows. I've had no luck so far on the trading sites I use for getting cursecatchers/vials/caverns/silvergils/spellskites/etc...
Just the raw strength of the lords and trying out some multi-use/mode enchantments (siege, Dsphere, bident, S seas) have worked pretty well for me, so I might just put the finishing touches on this soon and leave it as a "polished budget deck", especially if the prices of vial and cavern keep getting worse.
My wife works for Hasbro, so I can't play in anything major anyway. All the stuff I play is unsanctioned, so I don't ever feel that compelled to have a strict tier-1 list. Still, any suggestions any of you guys have for me is greatly appreciated.
Pioneer:
EDH:
Also, what is everyone's take on Remand in the 75, or any other 2 mana counter? Are Spell Pierce, Swan Song, and/or Dispel better options?
I played against Nourishing Shoal G-Vengeance and it never felt unwinnable. I held a vapor snag in hand the entire time and when he went to resolve his 1st grisle-trigger I snagged it and he dug and dug trying to get answers and just lost. Game two I did it again and when he replayed it I coped his Grisle with my P. Image and he conceded. I was honestly surprised at how weak the deck is or at least feels, maybe it was just the pilot but he gained with shoal and dug with grisle and vapor snag just shined the whole way through.
UMerfolkU
Legacy
UMerfolkU
Commander
RWBAlesha, Who Smiles At DeathRWB
What a first post. You must really hate the match up.
We are naturally a deck with small creatures that produce a reasonable clock and we have disruption. I feel good about such a match up. Side out Master of Waves, Dismember, Spreading Seas, bring in any and all counters, relics and some Tectonic edges, (so you can play creatures while holding up counter magic). You can even bring in Tidebinder mage for that dumb wurm.
I don't necessarily hate it because I don't see it enough in paper magic but yeah I sort of feel like I'd rather play against affinity sometimes. I'm currently running 3 spell pierces which apparently doesn't seem to be enough. No current side board counter magic. I might try to find a spot to move in one or two dispels after reading up about the GPs.
The matchup isn't as hopeless as I originally felt when I encountered it blind at GP Charlotte, but it's not a cakewalk either. The "Plan A" of the deck is to use Gristelbrand plus Nourishing Shaul with Worldspine Worm to draw almost their whole deck, then use their free mana to cast Borborygmos Enraged and throw a half dozen or so lands at you at 3 damage a piece. But their "plan b" of just tossing Worldspine Worm at you Through the Breach once or twice, maybe with Gristelbrand to just punch face can be hard to deal with if you haven't drawn into any counter or removal. However something as simple as spell pierce may not leave them enough mana on their first attempt to go off.
I usually have the snag but what always ends up happening is that they respond with Geisel triggers and just go back up with a shoal. Rinse repeat until they simian into ritual into breach win con.
EDIT: Consulted Nikachu's sideboard chart, got a better understanding now.