I will never take out Seas personally since it helps vs Affinity and Infect while frustrating any mixed color deck. You can keep Dredge off black so they have to slow roll you and keep storm off red to get an extra turn or two which lets you get in a more comfortable area to keep counters up or play a Siege. We all have our own little twists on the deck
I will never take out Seas personally since it helps vs Affinity and Infect while frustrating any mixed color deck. You can keep Dredge off black so they have to slow roll you and keep storm off red to get an extra turn or two which lets you get in a more comfortable area to keep counters up or play a Siege. We all have our own little twists on the deck
Yeah, I've never run less than 4. Against many decks (Junk, Affinity, Infect, Vigor, Tron) it feels like a mini Blood Moon.
You do realize that 2 of the 3 successful (went x-4 or better in the modern portion) lists from the PT splashed white. Before that, the 10th place list from SCGWAS splashed white. Affinity, for example, is a piss poor match-up. I would not fault anyone for splashing white almost solely for Stony Silence as it's not outside the realm of possibility that Affinity can account for near 10% of a meta at any high level event. You don't need to stretch to do so either, thanks to Wanderwine Hub. It also so happens to insulate you from Choke as an added bonus.
What I'm trying to say is, fish splashing white has already statistically proven to be viable, arguably more so than mono blue.
Okay, so you're radically changing your mana base and filling 3-4 SB slots with specific Affinity hate for a matchup that was horrible and is now still pretty bad (still not even 50/50). The alternative being a more efficient mana base and making more of your borderline matchups favourable.
I think that's dumb.
Many people here seem to fear these boogeymen decks and disagree with me. For sure, certain cards make the W splash possible (Wanderwine Hub, etc), but it is still a bad idea. I get it, I do, I used to feel the same way. But then I learned a lot more about Modern and played a lot without the W splash (as I recommend everyone should) and it is not even a close decision.
Stop playing specific hate cards like Stony Silence, and stop worrying about cards that take up 1 (MAYBE 2) slots in a deck's 75 like Choke.
Splashing white is partially a meta call and partially how you want to play the deck. White makes it much more of a control match up since aside from Sejiri Merfolk and Sygg, River Guide we don't really get any creatures. Yeah Kataki, War's Wage is neat and all in the side but it is a SB card vying against Stony Silence which I always think Stony is better. Yes we get Path to Exile and Rest in Peace, but those are again in the control side of things. Merfolk can easily be Aggro or Control in the same match even depending on how you side. We also run into Blood Moon and Tectonic Edge or even Ghost Quarter since I doubt any lists run basic Plains.
At the Pro Tour, sure maybe white is the better call on that high of professional level and against such a huge diverse meta. Mono blue builds can still top 8 at IQs and other medium level events just fine. Don't feel pressured to splash white just because it was played at the Pro Tour. The deck with white in it is a different level of play since instead of playing lords and swinging all the time you keep mana up or tap out for control cards and effects. Similar to what we do now, but still different enough to take some learning.
If you are afraid of Affinity just put some Steel Sabotage in your SB, I run 3 Hurkyl's Recall and that is it for Affinity. I'm not afraid of it, it is just like infect which I also don't fear. If they have the win before we get going they have it no matter how much of our SB is in our hand.
Master of Etherium doesn't care about Stony Silence and a quick Dispatch can make that guy unblockable if you aren't playing many creatures.
You do realize that 2 of the 3 successful (went x-4 or better in the modern portion) lists from the PT splashed white. Before that, the 10th place list from SCGWAS splashed white. Affinity, for example, is a piss poor match-up. I would not fault anyone for splashing white almost solely for Stony Silence as it's not outside the realm of possibility that Affinity can account for near 10% of a meta at any high level event. You don't need to stretch to do so either, thanks to Wanderwine Hub. It also so happens to insulate you from Choke as an added bonus.
What I'm trying to say is, fish splashing white has already statistically proven to be viable, arguably more so than mono blue.
Okay, so you're radically changing your mana base and filling 3-4 SB slots with specific Affinity hate for a matchup that was horrible and is now still pretty bad (still not even 50/50). The alternative being a more efficient mana base and making more of your borderline matchups favourable.
I think that's dumb.
Many people here seem to fear these boogeymen decks and disagree with me. For sure, certain cards make the W splash possible (Wanderwine Hub, etc), but it is still a bad idea. I get it, I do, I used to feel the same way. But then I learned a lot more about Modern and played a lot without the W splash (as I recommend everyone should) and it is not even a close decision.
Stop playing specific hate cards like Stony Silence, and stop worrying about cards that take up 1 (MAYBE 2) slots in a deck's 75 like Choke.
You're obviously splashing white for more than just Stony, I was just using it as one of the selling points. Path, RiP, Thalia, Kataki and etc. are other cards pulling you into white. It's no secret white offers the best SB hate in modern. You're also acting like you have to stretch the mana base when you really don't. You can slide 12 white source into this deck very easily without sacrificing efficiency. If you couldn't I'm sure people wouldn't be taking it to/having success at major events.
"I used to feel the same way but then I learned more about Modern." This condescending attitude is hilarious because you're objectively wrong. Like I said, UW has proven to be more viable at the highest possible tier of competition. Even if it's just variance and Kirsch/Lambardi got "lucky" or the modern PT meta was inbred, it'd still be moronic to totally disregard the splash.
As I say above, splashing white CAN be good and it CAN also be worse. It is certainly viable, but by no means does that equate to optimal. You go from being worried about 1 card, Choke, to be worried about Blood Moon, Tec Edge, Fulminator Mage, and the list goes on and those cards are on the incline right now as Abzan gets more popular. One of the best things about our deck is its immunity to those cards. Yeah getting a muta killed sucks, but it doesn't stop us from playing our deck.
As I say above, splashing white CAN be good and it CAN also be worse. It is certainly viable, but by no means does that equate to optimal. You go from being worried about 1 card, Choke, to be worried about Blood Moon, Tec Edge, Fulminator Mage, and the list goes on and those cards are on the incline right now as Abzan gets more popular. One of the best things about our deck is its immunity to those cards. Yeah getting a muta killed sucks, but it doesn't stop us from playing our deck.
I agree, I was simply responding to FetchLand's ironic assertion that splashing white was objectively wrong if you were going to take the deck to a high level event.
You're right, White probably has the best hate cards. If you want to, play Hate Bears. Path, RiP, Thalia, Kataki are specific hate cards, they do not help you, they hurt your opponent, there is a difference. Well, maybe not Path, but giving an opponent a land limits Cursecatcher's ability and Spell Pierce too, if you run it. Also, most decks play individually stronger cards than us so turning their creature into an extra land is often not worthwhile. Wurmcoil Engine might be an exception, but it is not the rule. These hate cards are not versatile enough. What if you are playing against Zoo, not Tron, and instead of a Wurmcoil Engine your presented with a Noble Hierarch? Using Path on that is pretty bad.
Sorry if you found my comment condescending, wasn't meant to be, but it's true. I used to agree, learned more, and changed my opinion. For the better.
You cannot slide white sources into this deck without sacrifice, whether it is efficiency or life or whatever, that is the whole point of how lands are designed and why Legacy duals are lots of $$$. Go ahead, use fetches and shocks, lose to burn; use Wanderwine Hub and have it entered tapped because you have a Remand, Kira, and Path in your hand (boy that white source THIS turn sure would have been helpful). The reason Oboro and Minamo are so good is NOT because they are nonbasic lands or their abilities, it is because they are the only 2 nonbasic, modern legal, lands that produce blue and do not enter tapped (very easy to search this on gatherer).
Unless Affinity (or some other deck, not Junk/Abzan or Burn) becomes WAY more popular, running WU is a mistake anywhere other than a LGS.
If your meta is saturated with Living End, Dredge Vine, Affinity, Storm, and similar decks then splashing white looks very promising over mono blue. Under normal conditions we cannot do much against graveyard decks, Grafdigger's Cage is literally useless against Living End and Relic of Progenitus is our best hope in general, but not a card we should run 4 of in total so running Rest in Peace helps those match ups a great deal. Running Thalia in addition to RiP helps against storm as well. Of course running Stony Silence is a lot better than needing to rely on Hurkyl's Recall and Steel Sabotage since you can also run Kataki. Those decks I feel can all justify needing to splash white, I can't really think of any others.
On the flip side Living End runs Fulminator Mage and Beast Within so it sucks SUPER hard if they pitch a Simian Spirit Guide and turn 2 kill one of our duals, especially if they are on the play. Up at the high end pro level it is all about number crunching, chances of running into X decks Y numbers of times and how to win the most games possible in theory. You could go ahead and splash white ready for favorable match ups and in the end see mostly Zoo, abzan, and Burn so you will probably feel like you picked the wrong deck when its over.
Tec Edge isn't a worry for us, we're not trying to flood the board with mana. We have 2-4 land in play, Tec will probably hurt them more than us and I would LOVE to be Tec Edged. That means I'm flooding out and the game is probably over when they can afford to Tec us.
Someone siding in Blood Moon seems like a mistake. It would mostly be a 3 Mana 'Stone' Rain (but not really because the land will still tap for colorless). And we still have Aether Vial. I think I would be happy if my opponent brought in Blood Moon. Choke however is pretty much game over vs the Mono Blue Deck.
Seems like pretty weak corner cases for not running U/w.
Or you straight up lose to Affinity, one of the cheapest, abundant, fastest decks in the Meta. #1 on Paulo's list of decks to play (CFB). Not fine with that. It's part of what keeps Merfolk Tier II.
Grave hate seems pretty silly right now as well. RIP is not needed considering alot of the Merfolk builds are running Relics Maindeck!
Path doesn't work well with Spreading Seas but it's the best removal in the format (and possibly the game, next to Swords). If you don't like the Junk matchup, it's one great card. Dismember is good, but it's the only choice available to the Mono Blue build (you're paying 4 life so they can't put a basic land into play and also playing Hymn to Tourach on yourself for everyone you draw after that, whereas Path just stays good).
Also, Paulo's article on Modern is really good. He says the sideboard cards are extremely powerful and shut down entire decks. He laments where Modern is at (non-interactive decks relying on powerful sb cards).
He gives an example of (aggressive mulliganer) Martin Juza keeping 6 lands and 1 Stony Silence vs Affinity. If its' good enough for him, ....
Blood Moon can be really good if you have a Wanderwine Hub, a Fetch, and a Muta in play plus they probably sided in artifact removal making Vials moot. Tec edge can keep us off white if we choose to splash it otherwise it is terrible.
Affinity is honestly so easy to deal with. Spreading Seas their Nexuses or even their Glimmervoid, Echoing Truth their Cranial Platings, Dismember or Vapor Snag their attackers. Kira or Monastery Siege helps against Dispatch and Galvanic Blast. Whipflare can be a dead draw depending on our board state and especially if we have a Master of Waves out. Plus a properly timed Hurkyl's is just game over for them and the affinity players know it. So many of our cards pull double duty it is a t1 deck but I feel we have more answers to it than say Infect which can just explode into a win out of nowhere while affinity takes a lot more set up. And again Steel Sabotage is a great card if you are that worried about Affinity
Non-interactive legacy decks are the same way, they need their SB to sustain or protect themselves especially if they aren't running force that is basically how magic works. Of all the t1 decks Abzan is the only "fair" deck but their have access to so many more cards that pushes them into that t1 spot. We are a "fair" deck and so we have little choice of moving up to t1, i doubt even printing another lord would be enough.
Also Etched Champion and Master of Etherium will laugh Stony Silence all the way to a win
So today i leave the merfolk group, i sold my merfolk, is not that the deck is bad, but i generally play the deck i consider the strongest agressive deck for the meta, and merfolk is no longet it ,imo.
you will find this funny, specially with current raise of infect and amulet bloom, but Soul sisters. I think SS Junk, twin and burn matchups to be oustanding, and is easy to build a sb to crush affinity. Sadly infect and bloom are horrible. I think SS was unplayable before because Scapeshift and Pod made it unplayable, but now the coast is clear, so im SS unless infect and bloom become too big.
No I'm not trolling you and Affinity players are getting wise to Stony Silence and are playing Master more often since it is great versus a board state of only stony silence. You also neglected to mention etched champion which everyone plays. I've never had a problem with affinity, I don't worry about the match up just like I dont worry about infect. If either deck has the nuts its just over, but usually we can at least 1 for 1 them on spells and removal. Check out that GPT link that was posted, you will notice the affinity player using Masters
Also congrats on your win Nikachu, I'll be heading to the Modern Open in Baltimore next week so we will see how well merfolk can do there or what kind of meta shapes up from that.
UMerfolkU
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RWBAlesha, Who Smiles At DeathRWB
Yeah, I've never run less than 4. Against many decks (Junk, Affinity, Infect, Vigor, Tron) it feels like a mini Blood Moon.
Okay, so you're radically changing your mana base and filling 3-4 SB slots with specific Affinity hate for a matchup that was horrible and is now still pretty bad (still not even 50/50). The alternative being a more efficient mana base and making more of your borderline matchups favourable.
I think that's dumb.
Many people here seem to fear these boogeymen decks and disagree with me. For sure, certain cards make the W splash possible (Wanderwine Hub, etc), but it is still a bad idea. I get it, I do, I used to feel the same way. But then I learned a lot more about Modern and played a lot without the W splash (as I recommend everyone should) and it is not even a close decision.
Stop playing specific hate cards like Stony Silence, and stop worrying about cards that take up 1 (MAYBE 2) slots in a deck's 75 like Choke.
Grand Arbiter
Omnath
Skittles
Nikachu posted a good video on the topic of this card: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt406K0hJnw
At the Pro Tour, sure maybe white is the better call on that high of professional level and against such a huge diverse meta. Mono blue builds can still top 8 at IQs and other medium level events just fine. Don't feel pressured to splash white just because it was played at the Pro Tour. The deck with white in it is a different level of play since instead of playing lords and swinging all the time you keep mana up or tap out for control cards and effects. Similar to what we do now, but still different enough to take some learning.
If you are afraid of Affinity just put some Steel Sabotage in your SB, I run 3 Hurkyl's Recall and that is it for Affinity. I'm not afraid of it, it is just like infect which I also don't fear. If they have the win before we get going they have it no matter how much of our SB is in our hand.
Master of Etherium doesn't care about Stony Silence and a quick Dispatch can make that guy unblockable if you aren't playing many creatures.
UMerfolkU
Legacy
UMerfolkU
Commander
RWBAlesha, Who Smiles At DeathRWB
You're obviously splashing white for more than just Stony, I was just using it as one of the selling points. Path, RiP, Thalia, Kataki and etc. are other cards pulling you into white. It's no secret white offers the best SB hate in modern. You're also acting like you have to stretch the mana base when you really don't. You can slide 12 white source into this deck very easily without sacrificing efficiency. If you couldn't I'm sure people wouldn't be taking it to/having success at major events.
"I used to feel the same way but then I learned more about Modern." This condescending attitude is hilarious because you're objectively wrong. Like I said, UW has proven to be more viable at the highest possible tier of competition. Even if it's just variance and Kirsch/Lambardi got "lucky" or the modern PT meta was inbred, it'd still be moronic to totally disregard the splash.
UMerfolkU
Legacy
UMerfolkU
Commander
RWBAlesha, Who Smiles At DeathRWB
I agree, I was simply responding to FetchLand's ironic assertion that splashing white was objectively wrong if you were going to take the deck to a high level event.
Sorry if you found my comment condescending, wasn't meant to be, but it's true. I used to agree, learned more, and changed my opinion. For the better.
You cannot slide white sources into this deck without sacrifice, whether it is efficiency or life or whatever, that is the whole point of how lands are designed and why Legacy duals are lots of $$$. Go ahead, use fetches and shocks, lose to burn; use Wanderwine Hub and have it entered tapped because you have a Remand, Kira, and Path in your hand (boy that white source THIS turn sure would have been helpful). The reason Oboro and Minamo are so good is NOT because they are nonbasic lands or their abilities, it is because they are the only 2 nonbasic, modern legal, lands that produce blue and do not enter tapped (very easy to search this on gatherer).
Unless Affinity (or some other deck, not Junk/Abzan or Burn) becomes WAY more popular, running WU is a mistake anywhere other than a LGS.
On the flip side Living End runs Fulminator Mage and Beast Within so it sucks SUPER hard if they pitch a Simian Spirit Guide and turn 2 kill one of our duals, especially if they are on the play. Up at the high end pro level it is all about number crunching, chances of running into X decks Y numbers of times and how to win the most games possible in theory. You could go ahead and splash white ready for favorable match ups and in the end see mostly Zoo, abzan, and Burn so you will probably feel like you picked the wrong deck when its over.
UMerfolkU
Legacy
UMerfolkU
Commander
RWBAlesha, Who Smiles At DeathRWB
Someone siding in Blood Moon seems like a mistake. It would mostly be a 3 Mana 'Stone' Rain (but not really because the land will still tap for colorless). And we still have Aether Vial. I think I would be happy if my opponent brought in Blood Moon. Choke however is pretty much game over vs the Mono Blue Deck.
Seems like pretty weak corner cases for not running U/w.
Or you straight up lose to Affinity, one of the cheapest, abundant, fastest decks in the Meta. #1 on Paulo's list of decks to play (CFB). Not fine with that. It's part of what keeps Merfolk Tier II.
Grave hate seems pretty silly right now as well. RIP is not needed considering alot of the Merfolk builds are running Relics Maindeck!
Path doesn't work well with Spreading Seas but it's the best removal in the format (and possibly the game, next to Swords). If you don't like the Junk matchup, it's one great card. Dismember is good, but it's the only choice available to the Mono Blue build (you're paying 4 life so they can't put a basic land into play and also playing Hymn to Tourach on yourself for everyone you draw after that, whereas Path just stays good).
He gives an example of (aggressive mulliganer) Martin Juza keeping 6 lands and 1 Stony Silence vs Affinity. If its' good enough for him, ....
Affinity is honestly so easy to deal with. Spreading Seas their Nexuses or even their Glimmervoid, Echoing Truth their Cranial Platings, Dismember or Vapor Snag their attackers. Kira or Monastery Siege helps against Dispatch and Galvanic Blast. Whipflare can be a dead draw depending on our board state and especially if we have a Master of Waves out. Plus a properly timed Hurkyl's is just game over for them and the affinity players know it. So many of our cards pull double duty it is a t1 deck but I feel we have more answers to it than say Infect which can just explode into a win out of nowhere while affinity takes a lot more set up. And again Steel Sabotage is a great card if you are that worried about Affinity
Non-interactive legacy decks are the same way, they need their SB to sustain or protect themselves especially if they aren't running force that is basically how magic works. Of all the t1 decks Abzan is the only "fair" deck but their have access to so many more cards that pushes them into that t1 spot. We are a "fair" deck and so we have little choice of moving up to t1, i doubt even printing another lord would be enough.
Also Etched Champion and Master of Etherium will laugh Stony Silence all the way to a win
UMerfolkU
Legacy
UMerfolkU
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RWBAlesha, Who Smiles At DeathRWB
YOU HAVE BEEN TROLLED!!
Affinity is easy for Mono Blue to deal with? Are you trolling me??!
And that often played, Master of Etherium (PS No one plays that.)
Also congrats on your win Nikachu, I'll be heading to the Modern Open in Baltimore next week so we will see how well merfolk can do there or what kind of meta shapes up from that.
UMerfolkU
Legacy
UMerfolkU
Commander
RWBAlesha, Who Smiles At DeathRWB