I am not too worried about Kitchen Finks decks - he sees play in Jund and Pod (mostly). Those decks are very vulnerable to mana disruption post board; then you island walk past them. The life gain is annoying, but you can hit so fast and so quickly that you just power through him. I find that accelerating them and fixing their draw with path can be horrid; path is more 'powerful' than bolt, but it has very real drawbacks and can never burn them out.
Its a small consideration, but seems important to me.
White definitely seems to have stronger sideboard options though.
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BUT, there is a card i didnt see you guys discuss about and that to my opinion is a must right now: wake thrasher
Hes just slow, and doesnt have as much damage without lots of permanents or Lords. 3 mana is something that we can only reserve for really really powerful cards like Reejerey. Hes fine if hes included,
Hey guys, I've been playing fish on modo for a while now and have picked up a few good finishes. I just recently finished 4th in a modo daily with a version of the deck not running masters, only because I did not know they were legal :P. Here is the list:
I've since changed the deck and added masters, I'm currently sitting at 1-1 in a daily losing to WUR delver and beating RUG delver. Had I been on the play g1 or g3 against WUR I would have had that match. The only changes to the list are -1 Cryptic command, -1 echoing truth, -1 coralhelm commander, -1 merrow reejery for +4 master of the pearl trident. Spellskite may seem odd but the card is just disgusting, it protects your folk but unlike kira it can also protect your life total against rdw, boros, and the other tempo decks that try to use lots of burn. That being said kira is still the card you want against WUR and RUG so I keep 1 in the sb. I don't run mana leak because I hate leaving up mana with this deck. Snag and dismember are your obligatory removal spells, cryptic is there to be an end game card.
Okay I am playing a modern event thursday at my local store. I don't have access to aether vial, or mutavaults. Its a budget thing haha. Well I'm making the best of what I have.
I went 2-2 in the daily today, lost to WUR delver, then beat rug 2-0, beat grixis tempo 2-0, and lost to rg tron 0-2. Against the tron deck I made a clear play mistake game 2 but for the most part he just rolled me over, my draws could have been better but at the moment I'm still trying to find better sideboard options for that match.
You whipped my ass a couple of months ago in a 2-man with Merfolk. I was playing Jund. Ever since that I have seen the potential of Fish and have played them off and on to a good effect. They are goddamn fast and resilient.
Since Master of the Pearl Trident, I have liked the deck more. I notice you hang on to Cryptic whilst I have cut mine. Spreading Seas seems to get the job done for me anymore. I also like how you have 1 MD Echoing Truth. I have borrowed that from you. I am just wondering your opinion on why the Cryptic remains. I can see the 1-of being a blow out when it is successful, but I can almost never rely on more than 3 land, so why not more cheap countermagic? or Spellskites (as mentioned above, it is a thought I have had)?
Just wanted to know what you think, since you seem to have a pretty decent grip on how this deck works.
Also, LOL @ Llawan since she could be an okay tempo play against Geist of St Traft too. Seems ok. 4 land again tho...
Wondering why no one is running Cavern. I have 2. Cryptic was the only thing holding me back from running it at all. I know we have Vial, but it is not always in the opener and then we randomly get blown out by what would have been rendered a bad hand with Vial (ie lots of remands and leaks by delver)
You whipped my ass a couple of months ago in a 2-man with Merfolk. I was playing Jund. Ever since that I have seen the potential of Fish and have played them off and on to a good effect. They are goddamn fast and resilient.
Since Master of the Pearl Trident, I have liked the deck more. I notice you hang on to Cryptic whilst I have cut mine. Spreading Seas seems to get the job done for me anymore. I also like how you have 1 MD Echoing Truth. I have borrowed that from you. I am just wondering your opinion on why the Cryptic remains. I can see the 1-of being a blow out when it is successful, but I can almost never rely on more than 3 land, so why not more cheap countermagic? or Spellskites (as mentioned above, it is a thought I have had)?
Just wanted to know what you think, since you seem to have a pretty decent grip on how this deck works.
Also, LOL @ Llawan since she could be an okay tempo play against Geist of St Traft too. Seems ok. 4 land again tho...
Wondering why no one is running Cavern. I have 2. Cryptic was the only thing holding me back from running it at all. I know we have Vial, but it is not always in the opener and then we randomly get blown out by what would have been rendered a bad hand with Vial (ie lots of remands and leaks by delver)
Cryptic is nice as a one of, I'm considering cutting my one of cryptic for perhaps a sower of temptation md. 4 cc is pretty rough but for a one of, and especially one that can be vialed seems worth it. I have noticed that cryptic has been underperforming in the new build. Cavern is probably a fine card if you aren't running cryptic anymore, I'm also considering running 2 tec edges instead of caverns since it is better against jund and rg tron which I think are much more difficult match ups.
Hes just slow, and doesnt have as much damage without lots of permanents or Lords. 3 mana is something that we can only reserve for really really powerful cards like Reejerey. Hes fine if hes included,
Just slow.
Just having the 3 lands to cast wake thrasher makes him a 4/4, i think he merits a 2 of.
Just having the 3 lands to cast wake thrasher makes him a 4/4, i think he merits a 2 of.
And where do you fit him? Is he better then the utility phantasmal image comes with? Is he better then a lord that also taps permanents? How about the ones that grant islandwalk? Is he better then our most evasive creature, who also happens to be a lord? He just isn't good enough in merfolk, the tribe is very tight and trying to squeeze in extra dudes is never easy. Merfolk is the type of deck that wants to attack with all it's dudes and have them all be big, not just one massive guy that can be chump blocked. Wakethrasher was decent back in the days when merfolk sovereign was run but in current builds I'd even take something like sygg, river cutthroat over wakethrasher. He is too slow and doesn't add enough to the board when he comes down. Nearly every creature in this deck makes your dudes bigger, you don't need a big dude you need dudes with utilities.
So I played in another daily this morning and finished 3-1 beating wur delver 2-0, affinity 2-0, and rug delver 2-0 while losing to UW delver 1-2. I got mana flooded game one and stuck on one mana game three against the UW deck. Overall I really like how my list is performing. I'll link the daily when they post it online but for now here is the list:
As I said this configuration has been working great for me, I've gone 3-1 in two dailies out of my past 4 attempts with it. It is very counter light but I'm pretty happy with cutting the cryptic for a sower, cryptic was almost always used to tap down their team and spreading seas just does that job better. The sower is great against so many bad match ups, I've been very pleased with it thus far.
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Originally Posted by apaulogy View Post
Hey Safeguard.
I notice you hang on to Cryptic whilst I have cut mine. Spreading Seas seems to get the job done for me anymore. I also like how you have 1 MD Echoing Truth. I am just wondering your opinion on why the Cryptic remains. I can see the 1-of being a blow out when it is successful, but I can almost never rely on more than 3 land, so why not more cheap countermagic? or Spellskites (as mentioned above, it is a thought I have had)?
Wondering why no one is running Cavern. Cryptic was the only thing holding me back from running it at all. I know we have Vial, but it is not always in the opener and then we randomly get blown out by what would have been rendered a bad hand with Vial (ie lots of remands and leaks by delver)
Spellskites are okay, but only if you maybe run Swords, hes a wall, even though he can attack. But you want to bash life-Totals, Spellskite isnt very good at that. I wouldn't make room in my deck for him. He has potential in a deck I have been thinking of.
Cryptic Command is really good, that spell is nuts. I love running two, but Ive been wanting to get more room in the deck. Its also a thing of the curve, I may go back to 2.
I used to (probably going back to) run 2 Echoing Truth maindeck. Its just decent removal and can completely flop somebodys board position. Also, Tokens can be a problem.
As you play more and more, you are going to want to build it differently, and you should. Try many different strategies. If you don't constantly change your deck in very little ways, you should at least seek to. Earn a better understanding of every interaction.
Cavern of Soul isn't making a huge deal in modern, because its a quicker format and Mana Leak isn't dominating Prime Time, Or other Good creatures that come out on turn 3+ (Like how it is in Standard)
We see things like Goblin Guide/Tarmogoyf/ Knight of the reliquary and Giest( t3 I know) Affinity,Delver, Bloodbraid Elf, Token creation, and Combo decks.
So Mana Leak,(this is why Ive cut it from my list) doesn't do enough every time I see it in my hand. Remand is just better. Overall.
Trust me I've run one in my deck for awhile, and maybe once or Twice it stopped Countermagic flat out, but its definitely not worth it. You get colors from it, but if you want to play cryptic command, or if you want colored mana... it hurts. You may also, want your turn 2 plays to get out Spreading Seas or Silvergil, or a UU Lord.
I went 2-2 in the daily today, lost to WUR delver, then beat rug 2-0, beat grixis tempo 2-0, and lost to rg tron 0-2. Against the tron deck I made a clear play mistake game 2 but for the most part he just rolled me over, my draws could have been better but at the moment I'm still trying to find better sideboard options for that match.
Is that the delver deck thats like
4 Lightning bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile?
If so, I highly suggest Dispel Its a 3 of in my sideboard now.
Useable against Combo/and decks with lightning fast removal. Even Red deck!
Tron your best options are Spreading Seas and Negate. If you want, try out Ghost Quarter.
I maindeck 1 Negate, and sideboard 2 I believe. Its very good against tron. It equalizes their board presence. They have 10 mana on turn 4 now? Karn/Oblivion Stone? Cool. Counterspell says hi.
4 Lightning bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile?
If so, I highly suggest Dispel Its a 3 of in my sideboard now.
Useable against Combo/and decks with lightning fast removal. Even Red deck!
Tron your best options are Spreading Seas and Negate. If you want, try out Ghost Quarter.
I maindeck 1 Negate, and sideboard 2 I believe. Its very good against tron. It equalizes their board presence. They have 10 mana on turn 4 now? Karn/Oblivion Stone? Cool. Counterspell says hi.
Yep that's the list, dispel is an option but I've actually found the combination of spellskite and kira to be more then enough against them. I've beaten it in more dailies then I've lost to it. I did end up choosing negate for my board for rg tron and I run 4 seas in the 75. Since making that post I tweaked the deck a decent amount and pulled off another 3-1 in a daily. Overall I feel pretty good about the list except for the affinity match up, that is a b*tch. Currently I board 2 pithing needle and 4 hurkyl's recall against them, might need to think of some better options.
Yep that's the list, dispel is an option but I've actually found the combination of spellskite and kira to be more then enough against them. I've beaten it in more dailies then I've lost to it. I did end up choosing negate for my board for rg tron and I run 4 seas in the 75. Since making that post I tweaked the deck a decent amount and pulled off another 3-1 in a daily. Overall I feel pretty good about the list except for the affinity match up, that is a b*tch. Currently I board 2 pithing needle and 4 hurkyl's recall against them, might need to think of some better options.
I think spell snare might be what we want. All of affinity's biggest threats are 2 drops.
I think spell snare might be what we want. All of affinity's biggest threats are 2 drops.
That seems exceptionally sub par, doesn't stop master or the pro colors guy or them just dumping their hand. Pithing needle answers the two drops while being great against rg tron too.
The Issue against Affinity is the amount of turn 2 aggro they can make. Since the have zero drops, and Springleaf Drum is essentially a second "land" for them, turn one needs to be shut down by denying them their zero Drops.
Chalice of the Void is good. Even if you miss it turn one. Chalice at Zero and Hurkyl's Recall. Thats pretty solid. Pithing Needle is good for Cranial Plating, the only 2 Drop spell I can really think of that really needs to be countered.
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Its a small consideration, but seems important to me.
White definitely seems to have stronger sideboard options though.
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Hes just slow, and doesnt have as much damage without lots of permanents or Lords. 3 mana is something that we can only reserve for really really powerful cards like Reejerey. Hes fine if hes included,
Just slow.
I really wish there was a Llawan, Cephalid Empress in Modern.
Otherwise, usually whoever goes first wins.
Link to the daily is here: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/4128289
I've since changed the deck and added masters, I'm currently sitting at 1-1 in a daily losing to WUR delver and beating RUG delver. Had I been on the play g1 or g3 against WUR I would have had that match. The only changes to the list are -1 Cryptic command, -1 echoing truth, -1 coralhelm commander, -1 merrow reejery for +4 master of the pearl trident. Spellskite may seem odd but the card is just disgusting, it protects your folk but unlike kira it can also protect your life total against rdw, boros, and the other tempo decks that try to use lots of burn. That being said kira is still the card you want against WUR and RUG so I keep 1 in the sb. I don't run mana leak because I hate leaving up mana with this deck. Snag and dismember are your obligatory removal spells, cryptic is there to be an end game card.
2 cursecatcher
4 silvergill adept
3 coralhelm commander
4 master of the pearl trident
4 lord of atlantis
4 merrow reejery
3 spell pierce
3 vapor snag
3 deprive
4 ghost quarter
18 island
3 surgical extraction
1 flashfreeze
2 negate
3 dispel
2 dismember
2 spellskite
1 jace beleren
1 vapor snag
Hey Safeguard.
You whipped my ass a couple of months ago in a 2-man with Merfolk. I was playing Jund. Ever since that I have seen the potential of Fish and have played them off and on to a good effect. They are goddamn fast and resilient.
Since Master of the Pearl Trident, I have liked the deck more. I notice you hang on to Cryptic whilst I have cut mine. Spreading Seas seems to get the job done for me anymore. I also like how you have 1 MD Echoing Truth. I have borrowed that from you. I am just wondering your opinion on why the Cryptic remains. I can see the 1-of being a blow out when it is successful, but I can almost never rely on more than 3 land, so why not more cheap countermagic? or Spellskites (as mentioned above, it is a thought I have had)?
Just wanted to know what you think, since you seem to have a pretty decent grip on how this deck works.
Also, LOL @ Llawan since she could be an okay tempo play against Geist of St Traft too. Seems ok. 4 land again tho...
Wondering why no one is running Cavern. I have 2. Cryptic was the only thing holding me back from running it at all. I know we have Vial, but it is not always in the opener and then we randomly get blown out by what would have been rendered a bad hand with Vial (ie lots of remands and leaks by delver)
Cryptic is nice as a one of, I'm considering cutting my one of cryptic for perhaps a sower of temptation md. 4 cc is pretty rough but for a one of, and especially one that can be vialed seems worth it. I have noticed that cryptic has been underperforming in the new build. Cavern is probably a fine card if you aren't running cryptic anymore, I'm also considering running 2 tec edges instead of caverns since it is better against jund and rg tron which I think are much more difficult match ups.
Just having the 3 lands to cast wake thrasher makes him a 4/4, i think he merits a 2 of.
If the deck becomes really popular, we can just run Merfolk Assassin. That's Modern legal.
Otherwise, splashing a color usually tilts the match one way or another.
And where do you fit him? Is he better then the utility phantasmal image comes with? Is he better then a lord that also taps permanents? How about the ones that grant islandwalk? Is he better then our most evasive creature, who also happens to be a lord? He just isn't good enough in merfolk, the tribe is very tight and trying to squeeze in extra dudes is never easy. Merfolk is the type of deck that wants to attack with all it's dudes and have them all be big, not just one massive guy that can be chump blocked. Wakethrasher was decent back in the days when merfolk sovereign was run but in current builds I'd even take something like sygg, river cutthroat over wakethrasher. He is too slow and doesn't add enough to the board when he comes down. Nearly every creature in this deck makes your dudes bigger, you don't need a big dude you need dudes with utilities.
4 Mutavault
14 Island
4 Aether vial
3 Spell pierce
2 vapor snag
2 dismember
2 spreading seas
4 lord of atlantis
3 coralhelm commander
3 merrow reejerey
4 silvergil adept
4 cursecatcher
2 spellskite
2 phantasmal image
1 sower of temptation
2 Pithing needle
4 Hurkyl's Recall
1 sower of temptation
2 spreading seas
2 negate
1 kira, great glass spinner
3 grafdigger's cage
As I said this configuration has been working great for me, I've gone 3-1 in two dailies out of my past 4 attempts with it. It is very counter light but I'm pretty happy with cutting the cryptic for a sower, cryptic was almost always used to tap down their team and spreading seas just does that job better. The sower is great against so many bad match ups, I've been very pleased with it thus far.
Deck tags added in. In the future, when posting a deck, please use deck tags. An explanation of how to use them can be found here.
-Tom
Spellskites are okay, but only if you maybe run Swords, hes a wall, even though he can attack. But you want to bash life-Totals, Spellskite isnt very good at that. I wouldn't make room in my deck for him. He has potential in a deck I have been thinking of.
something like this..
4 Grand Architect
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Snapcaster mage
4 Phantasmal Bear
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Spellskite
4 Vapor Snag
2 Echoing Truth
4 Serum Visions
4 Spell Pierce
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Dismember
1 Into the roil
14 Island
Cryptic Command is really good, that spell is nuts. I love running two, but Ive been wanting to get more room in the deck. Its also a thing of the curve, I may go back to 2.
I used to (probably going back to) run 2 Echoing Truth maindeck. Its just decent removal and can completely flop somebodys board position. Also, Tokens can be a problem.
As you play more and more, you are going to want to build it differently, and you should. Try many different strategies. If you don't constantly change your deck in very little ways, you should at least seek to. Earn a better understanding of every interaction.
Cavern of Soul isn't making a huge deal in modern, because its a quicker format and Mana Leak isn't dominating Prime Time, Or other Good creatures that come out on turn 3+ (Like how it is in Standard)
We see things like Goblin Guide/Tarmogoyf/ Knight of the reliquary and Giest( t3 I know) Affinity,Delver, Bloodbraid Elf, Token creation, and Combo decks.
So Mana Leak,(this is why Ive cut it from my list) doesn't do enough every time I see it in my hand. Remand is just better. Overall.
Cavern of Souls is good in modern, say when they reprint Counterspell or Force of Will
Trust me I've run one in my deck for awhile, and maybe once or Twice it stopped Countermagic flat out, but its definitely not worth it. You get colors from it, but if you want to play cryptic command, or if you want colored mana... it hurts. You may also, want your turn 2 plays to get out Spreading Seas or Silvergil, or a UU Lord.
Is that the delver deck thats like
4 Lightning bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile?
If so, I highly suggest Dispel Its a 3 of in my sideboard now.
Useable against Combo/and decks with lightning fast removal. Even Red deck!
Tron your best options are Spreading Seas and Negate. If you want, try out Ghost Quarter.
I maindeck 1 Negate, and sideboard 2 I believe. Its very good against tron. It equalizes their board presence. They have 10 mana on turn 4 now? Karn/Oblivion Stone? Cool. Counterspell says hi.
Yep that's the list, dispel is an option but I've actually found the combination of spellskite and kira to be more then enough against them. I've beaten it in more dailies then I've lost to it. I did end up choosing negate for my board for rg tron and I run 4 seas in the 75. Since making that post I tweaked the deck a decent amount and pulled off another 3-1 in a daily. Overall I feel pretty good about the list except for the affinity match up, that is a b*tch. Currently I board 2 pithing needle and 4 hurkyl's recall against them, might need to think of some better options.
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I think spell snare might be what we want. All of affinity's biggest threats are 2 drops.
Id say its more of their ability to swing for 18 damage on turn 3
This happened last night.
Turn one Affinity
Memnite, Ornigthopter
Artifact Land, Spring Leaf Drum
Tap Drum:
Signal Pest
Turn One Merfolk
Island, Cursecatcher
TURN two Affinity
Master of Etherium
Blinkmoth Nexus
Ornithoptor
Turn 2 Merfolk
Mutavault,
Silvergil Adept
TURN THREE affinity
SWING
BLINKMOTH (3/2)
Memnite (3/2)
Ornithopter (2/4)
Signal Pest (1/2)
Master of Etherium (9/8)
I kid you not.
That seems exceptionally sub par, doesn't stop master or the pro colors guy or them just dumping their hand. Pithing needle answers the two drops while being great against rg tron too.
Chalice of the Void is good. Even if you miss it turn one. Chalice at Zero and Hurkyl's Recall. Thats pretty solid. Pithing Needle is good for Cranial Plating, the only 2 Drop spell I can really think of that really needs to be countered.