all the arguments aside, we still have an expansion or two that is going to come out with more cycle cards and that will give the deck even more options. so i'm not going to get too invested at this point in what is the optimal build as it will be changing in the next two months.
RE: Dos_rouge
Dude, I'm glad I'm not the only one who was already thinking about us maybe getting more cycle creatures in Amonkhet part.2
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Standard // nRG Aggro
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
General question for you veterans out there concerning the SSG/F.Mage lists.
1. Say this is your hand: 3x land, 1x fulminator mage, 2x cyclers, and 1x cascade spell.
lets say you draw into a 3rd cycler and you are set up for a solid turn three living end. Do you take the turn off to cast the F.mage and living end on turn 4? I imagine this question depends on the matched up like if its tron you would obviously cast the mage first and if it was infect and our opponent was threatening lethal the next turn we would ignore the f.mage and cascade into LE.
2. Between Fulminator Mage and Simian Spirit Guide which one is better *IF* you dont have both in hand? SSG allows us to pump out a turn 2 LE if we need to (ie. infect), get a 4th cycler in the yard before we turn 3 LE, surprise Violent Outburst after we only hold up 2 land letting them think its safe to go all in, and we can always hard cast him if we need a body. F.mage is also a 2/2 body for 3 when we need him but he obviously blows up vital lands in some match ups which sometimes is game winning in itself (yet is *occasionally* a dead card when our op isn't playing any nonbasics).
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Standard // nRG Aggro
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
to answer your question:
1. it depend on your opponent's deck, against burn you are most likely to cast living end asap to relieve their board pressure and force them to use burn spells on your creature. against tron and other control-ish deck you are most likely to cast fulminator mage hoping for recurring effects to cripple their mana base. it also depends on the board , against burn if they missed a land drop i am more inclined to drop fulminator and blow up their land, also sometimes you need to be aware of graveyard hate and cast violent outburst accordingly.
2. these 2 cards are the core card of the deck and serve a very different purpose, but if i must pick the fulminator will be better. there is a reason most deck plays a fullset of fulminator and 3-4 simian spirit guide, but i wont play living end without both of them.
General question for you veterans out there concerning the SSG/F.Mage lists.
1. Say this is your hand: 3x land, 1x fulminator mage, 2x cyclers, and 1x cascade spell.
lets say you draw into a 3rd cycler and you are set up for a solid turn three living end. Do you take the turn off to cast the F.mage and living end on turn 4? I imagine this question depends on the matched up like if its tron you would obviously cast the mage first and if it was infect and our opponent was threatening lethal the next turn we would ignore the f.mage and cascade into LE.
2. Between Fulminator Mage and Simian Spirit Guide which one is better *IF* you dont have both in hand? SSG allows us to pump out a turn 2 LE if we need to (ie. infect), get a 4th cycler in the yard before we turn 3 LE, surprise Violent Outburst after we only hold up 2 land letting them think its safe to go all in, and we can always hard cast him if we need a body. F.mage is also a 2/2 body for 3 when we need him but he obviously blows up vital lands in some match ups which sometimes is game winning in itself (yet is *occasionally* a dead card when our op isn't playing any nonbasics).
Just to add something to ddxxe post:
1. Against control Fulminator acts like a pseudo-duress, either getting countered (increasing the chances of resolving your LE) or taking their blue mana.
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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Podríamos hacer un topic donde marquemos los peores horrores de ortografía.
Suprisingly since Amonkhet's release not one 5-0 deck had a single Kari Zev's Expertise but did have four of EACH cascader (not the previous standard 4-3 split)
Archfiend of Ifnir belongs in the deck. However, the numbers are either 2 or 4.
I'm noticing trends in sideboards too, but mostly ones that are nothing new:
"Categories":
W Leyline or Boar vs burn
Exile based "removal" Faeries, Anger or B Leyline for creature MU
Additional LD
Something for Affinity
Something for Control or Combo (lost legacy, Slaughter games, trap)
RW Blaze Commando Soldier Swarm BW Edgewalker Clerics i.e. All the prevention R Ogre Menial (Fallen Feromancer) Tunnelin' Infectors GB Shaman of the Pack Elves URReclusive Artificer Artifact Control GBCatacomb Sifter Sac-Attack
Tiny Leader Decks
WU Geist of Saint Traft WKembha's Cats WRG Marath Slide Control
Good observations and I've noticed some of the same things as well.
3x Beast w/in. period.
strange about the no kari zev's tho...
I noticed one list kept 2-3x F.mages main and dropped the SSG completely while having 3x B.moons in the board.
I think it is interesting how the SSG/F.mage package is getting broken up in contention with the other cycling options we have now or how F.mage is getting slowly pushed into the sideboard...
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Standard // nRG Aggro
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
I think the lack of Kari Zev's is a response to hand removal being so prevalent. That small amount of additional likelihood to get another cascader if one is stripped from you is probably more valuable then trying to assemble the hand combo.
I played that list last night DDxxe and I missed the SSG. That being said having almost every card cycle also meant that an early LE into archfiend meant I wiped Affinity clean even when they were a bit ahead.
I tried a (probably bad) sideboard combo of 4 LlotV 3 LloS 3 Ingot Chewer 2 Ricochet Trap 1 Dismember 1 Shriekmaw and a third Faerie Macabre.
Has anyone else every tried both Leylines in the SB? We are so strong off a Mulligan that it is possible to set up the Leyline off the start. Thoughts?
I will be testing both leylines in the SB this weekend.
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Standard // nRG Aggro
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
RE:halfie44
I noticed the 2x faerie macabre in the main in what instances do you find a 2-of like that useful? I can see sniping a couple creatures out of the yard that you don't want coming back when you go to living end, using it just to get a free 2/2 flyer before you living end, or when you top deck it after you got an archfiend or a horror on board you can cycle it to either of them for value. Outside of those scenarios I don't see why we just don't run 2x more spirit guides or archfiends.
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Standard // nRG Aggro
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
That is basically my exact maindeck. I have three SSG and 1 shriekmaw over one Archfiend and a demonic dread
my sideboard is a bit more fluid but I have 4 boar (don't like gnaw) and no leyline (faerie does a decent enough job and I don't see any Past in Flames storm) as the main differences
RW Blaze Commando Soldier Swarm BW Edgewalker Clerics i.e. All the prevention R Ogre Menial (Fallen Feromancer) Tunnelin' Infectors GB Shaman of the Pack Elves URReclusive Artificer Artifact Control GBCatacomb Sifter Sac-Attack
Tiny Leader Decks
WU Geist of Saint Traft WKembha's Cats WRG Marath Slide Control
Re: Halfie44
Thanks for the reply. I didn't think about the storm match up or the affinity match up where the Affinity player sacs everything to a Ravager as we cast living end.
Re: Marenkai
Welp, you can interpret the question that I intended Halfie44 to answer how ever you want I guess...
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Standard // nRG Aggro
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
In my opinion, Living end can play around grave hate when it's realy difficult for dredge... In a vs maybe they got the edge with some fast creature but we got the power...
"Living End" has also got better creatures now and "Dredge" has lost GGT so the match-up might be more even now.
"Living End" also seems to have more options (especially after sideboarding) and play to it than "Dredge" which seems like an even more linear deck that does basically the same thing against every deck.
Though "Dredge" still sees far more play so there should be a reason for it.
My first Modern deck was Dredge. It was fun for a week then I came to hate how I had to constantly be rearranging my huge Graveyard and also how the actual mechanic worked in normal games. It just didn't feel very fun. Living End also is somewhat of a gimmick but it feels more fun to me and has more interaction (especially the LD versions).
RE: Harambe (our lord and savior)
If you asked this question before Golgari Grave-Troll got banned I would have said play Dredge.
But now with GGT gone and we got Horror of the Broken Lands + Desert Cerodon I feel like Living End edges out Dredge slightly. As others have mentioned if you take the fun factor into account Dredge is a rather narrow deck in terms of lines you can play. Living End on the other hand is a very dynamic deck (when it needs to be) despite what some people might think/say. Between cards like Beast Within and Fulminator Mage you're able to interact with other decks in ways that Dredge isn't able to. Not to mention Living End's sideboard is pretty unique and flexible. It kind of depends on how interactive you want your deck to be.
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Standard // nRG Aggro
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
Woo-wee, I feel like, WRT the Dredge vs. Living End question, many of these responses are being given while wearing the some Living End-tinted goggles.
I play both Living End and Dredge, so I feel like I can give a pretty unbiased response.
Living End just got some great additions, so I believe it is better than it was a month ago. That being said, there is a reason that Dredge is considered to be a Tier 1 deck right now and Living End is in the "Developing Competitive Modern" category. I believe LE will move back up to tier 2 after it starts showing more results in the near future.
Neither Dredge nor LE are very interactive decks, but Dredge has Conflagrate MD and that card is brutal. LE also has MD boardwipes, but is far more susceptible to hand disruption. Fulminator is a plus for LE, though.
Because of LE's strict CMC clause, dealing with hate is much more difficult than with Dredge. Dredge just has much better and more efficient answers to hate, like Thoughtseize, Collective Brutality, Abrupt Decay, Nature's Claim, etc. I can't tell you how many times my opponent mulls to hate and then I just Thoughtseize it out turn 1. Because of this, I feel, in the overall meta, Dredge is more resilient than LE. Also, Dredge doesn't have as many bad MUs.
Head to head, the archfiend has made LE's Dredge MU a lot better. I don't think Dredge completely destroys LE like it used to. But it is much easier for Dredge to interact with LE post-board than LE with Dredge. Getting my only cascade spell seized or brutalitied out of my hand feels really bad.
Overall, IMO, Dredge is still a better deck in the current meta. I actually enjoy playing LE a little more than Dredge, but Dredge consistently puts up better results.
Holy crap, boyos. I'm on fire with LE. At my previous three tourneys I've gone 3-1, 3-0-1, and 3-0; last night I pulled off the 4-0. This deck feels so consistent and well positioned at the moment!
Round 1 vs. Bant Eldrazi: Game 1 I cycled a Cerodon, powered out a T2 Fulminator with SSG, and then cycled a Wraith and two Horrors while he curved up into a T4 Reality Smasher. During his attacks I cascaded, then beat him down in two turns.
Game 2 a no-land mulligan left me with a slow hand, and his quick start forced me to resolve a sub-optimal LE, bringing back only an Archfiend and a Street Wraith. But the real power of Archfiend went on full display here, chunking him for 5 while wiping his mana dorks and withering his Thought-Knot and Reality Smasher to the point where they couldn't even attack into Wraith. 2-0
Round 2 vs Jund: Game 1 he didn't have any discard spells in his opener, and my T3 Blood Moon locked him out pretty hard, allowing me to resolve a huge LE on T5 for the win. Game 2, his T2 Scooze forced me to hurry up my LE, after which I experienced some land flood, while he laid down a Goyf and dealt with my creatures via plenty of Terminates, beating me down over a few turns.
Game 3 was one of the most intense games of Modern I've ever played. I was cycling like a madman while his discard effects stripped any LE enablers I found, his Liliana dropping to one counter to get rid of my Fulminator before ticking all the way up to nine as I dug for a Cascade spell. When I finally resolved a Dread, bringing back 8 creatures, my opponent used Lily's ultimate, offering me most of my lands plus two creatures or 6 creatures + Forbidden Orchard. I took the lands, which proved to be correct; he was holding massive amounts of spot removal, and keeping my mana allowed me to dig for yet another Cascade, which brought everything back and then some. 2-1
Round 3 vs Boros Burn: Game 1 my opponent tried to race me and it didn't work. Smooth cycling and relatively pain-free land plays let me resolve a strong T3 LE and win on T4.
Game 2 he tried to race again, and it would have worked, if not for the Brindle Boar squad. I played one on T3, another on T4, and a third on T5, all that lifegain and blocking value putting me far out of reach when I brought them all back with a T6 cascade. 2-0
Round 4 vs. Bushwhacker Zoo: A pretty easy matchup for us, which went more or less as expected both games: he tried to go wide and fast Game 1 and got wiped, then soft-locked by Blood Moon; he tried to play cagey Game 2 and got outvalued by big dumb cyclers. We played a Game 3 for fun, and his sideboarded Rest In Peace showed up, giving him the win, so be wary of that--otherwise, this might be our 80/20 matchup. 2-0
First place on the night with a 4-0/8-1 record. Absolutely thrilled with the added power and consistency the Amonkhet crew brings to the table.
The only aspect of my play that had me second-guessing things was sideboarding against Jund. What do you all typically swap in and out in that matchup?
The only aspect of my play that had me second-guessing things was sideboarding against Jund. What do you all typically swap in and out in that matchup?
Shriekmaws taking place of the slower cyclers for scooze and that's about it.
The matchup is generally considered to be one of the more favorable ones to begin with.
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Dude, I'm glad I'm not the only one who was already thinking about us maybe getting more cycle creatures in Amonkhet part.2
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
1. Say this is your hand: 3x land, 1x fulminator mage, 2x cyclers, and 1x cascade spell.
lets say you draw into a 3rd cycler and you are set up for a solid turn three living end. Do you take the turn off to cast the F.mage and living end on turn 4? I imagine this question depends on the matched up like if its tron you would obviously cast the mage first and if it was infect and our opponent was threatening lethal the next turn we would ignore the f.mage and cascade into LE.
2. Between Fulminator Mage and Simian Spirit Guide which one is better *IF* you dont have both in hand? SSG allows us to pump out a turn 2 LE if we need to (ie. infect), get a 4th cycler in the yard before we turn 3 LE, surprise Violent Outburst after we only hold up 2 land letting them think its safe to go all in, and we can always hard cast him if we need a body. F.mage is also a 2/2 body for 3 when we need him but he obviously blows up vital lands in some match ups which sometimes is game winning in itself (yet is *occasionally* a dead card when our op isn't playing any nonbasics).
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
1. it depend on your opponent's deck, against burn you are most likely to cast living end asap to relieve their board pressure and force them to use burn spells on your creature. against tron and other control-ish deck you are most likely to cast fulminator mage hoping for recurring effects to cripple their mana base. it also depends on the board , against burn if they missed a land drop i am more inclined to drop fulminator and blow up their land, also sometimes you need to be aware of graveyard hate and cast violent outburst accordingly.
2. these 2 cards are the core card of the deck and serve a very different purpose, but if i must pick the fulminator will be better. there is a reason most deck plays a fullset of fulminator and 3-4 simian spirit guide, but i wont play living end without both of them.
Just to add something to ddxxe post:
1. Against control Fulminator acts like a pseudo-duress, either getting countered (increasing the chances of resolving your LE) or taking their blue mana.
2. I think that SSG is what pushes this deck
The Amonkhet one mana cyclers are the real deal. You need 4 Horror of the Broken Lands and 4 Desert Cerodon.
Suprisingly since Amonkhet's release not one 5-0 deck had a single Kari Zev's Expertise but did have four of EACH cascader (not the previous standard 4-3 split)
Archfiend of Ifnir belongs in the deck. However, the numbers are either 2 or 4.
Beast within is a 3-of. period.
Architects of Will and Deadshot Minotaur are slowly phasing out.
There are 2-3 slots that people seem to be "preboarding" a combination of Faerie MAcabre, Shriekmaw or the full set of Fulminators
All but one still had Fulminator Mage and Simian Spirit Guide
I'm noticing trends in sideboards too, but mostly ones that are nothing new:
"Categories":
W Leyline or Boar vs burn
Exile based "removal" Faeries, Anger or B Leyline for creature MU
Additional LD
Something for Affinity
Something for Control or Combo (lost legacy, Slaughter games, trap)
EDH DECKS:
GBCatacomb Sifter Sac-Attack
3x Beast w/in. period.
strange about the no kari zev's tho...
I noticed one list kept 2-3x F.mages main and dropped the SSG completely while having 3x B.moons in the board.
I think it is interesting how the SSG/F.mage package is getting broken up in contention with the other cycling options we have now or how F.mage is getting slowly pushed into the sideboard...
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
I played that list last night DDxxe and I missed the SSG. That being said having almost every card cycle also meant that an early LE into archfiend meant I wiped Affinity clean even when they were a bit ahead.
I tried a (probably bad) sideboard combo of 4 LlotV 3 LloS 3 Ingot Chewer 2 Ricochet Trap 1 Dismember 1 Shriekmaw and a third Faerie Macabre.
Has anyone else every tried both Leylines in the SB? We are so strong off a Mulligan that it is possible to set up the Leyline off the start. Thoughts?
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
I noticed the 2x faerie macabre in the main in what instances do you find a 2-of like that useful? I can see sniping a couple creatures out of the yard that you don't want coming back when you go to living end, using it just to get a free 2/2 flyer before you living end, or when you top deck it after you got an archfiend or a horror on board you can cycle it to either of them for value. Outside of those scenarios I don't see why we just don't run 2x more spirit guides or archfiends.
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
That is basically my exact maindeck. I have three SSG and 1 shriekmaw over one Archfiend and a demonic dread
my sideboard is a bit more fluid but I have 4 boar (don't like gnaw) and no leyline (faerie does a decent enough job and I don't see any Past in Flames storm) as the main differences
EDH DECKS:
GBCatacomb Sifter Sac-Attack
Thanks for the reply. I didn't think about the storm match up or the affinity match up where the Affinity player sacs everything to a Ravager as we cast living end.
Re: Marenkai
Welp, you can interpret the question that I intended Halfie44 to answer how ever you want I guess...
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
GWAura-HexproofGW
"Living End" also seems to have more options (especially after sideboarding) and play to it than "Dredge" which seems like an even more linear deck that does basically the same thing against every deck.
Though "Dredge" still sees far more play so there should be a reason for it.
If you asked this question before Golgari Grave-Troll got banned I would have said play Dredge.
But now with GGT gone and we got Horror of the Broken Lands + Desert Cerodon I feel like Living End edges out Dredge slightly. As others have mentioned if you take the fun factor into account Dredge is a rather narrow deck in terms of lines you can play. Living End on the other hand is a very dynamic deck (when it needs to be) despite what some people might think/say. Between cards like Beast Within and Fulminator Mage you're able to interact with other decks in ways that Dredge isn't able to. Not to mention Living End's sideboard is pretty unique and flexible. It kind of depends on how interactive you want your deck to be.
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
I play both Living End and Dredge, so I feel like I can give a pretty unbiased response.
Living End just got some great additions, so I believe it is better than it was a month ago. That being said, there is a reason that Dredge is considered to be a Tier 1 deck right now and Living End is in the "Developing Competitive Modern" category. I believe LE will move back up to tier 2 after it starts showing more results in the near future.
Neither Dredge nor LE are very interactive decks, but Dredge has Conflagrate MD and that card is brutal. LE also has MD boardwipes, but is far more susceptible to hand disruption. Fulminator is a plus for LE, though.
Because of LE's strict CMC clause, dealing with hate is much more difficult than with Dredge. Dredge just has much better and more efficient answers to hate, like Thoughtseize, Collective Brutality, Abrupt Decay, Nature's Claim, etc. I can't tell you how many times my opponent mulls to hate and then I just Thoughtseize it out turn 1. Because of this, I feel, in the overall meta, Dredge is more resilient than LE. Also, Dredge doesn't have as many bad MUs.
Head to head, the archfiend has made LE's Dredge MU a lot better. I don't think Dredge completely destroys LE like it used to. But it is much easier for Dredge to interact with LE post-board than LE with Dredge. Getting my only cascade spell seized or brutalitied out of my hand feels really bad.
Overall, IMO, Dredge is still a better deck in the current meta. I actually enjoy playing LE a little more than Dredge, but Dredge consistently puts up better results.
Round 1 vs. Bant Eldrazi: Game 1 I cycled a Cerodon, powered out a T2 Fulminator with SSG, and then cycled a Wraith and two Horrors while he curved up into a T4 Reality Smasher. During his attacks I cascaded, then beat him down in two turns.
Game 2 a no-land mulligan left me with a slow hand, and his quick start forced me to resolve a sub-optimal LE, bringing back only an Archfiend and a Street Wraith. But the real power of Archfiend went on full display here, chunking him for 5 while wiping his mana dorks and withering his Thought-Knot and Reality Smasher to the point where they couldn't even attack into Wraith. 2-0
Round 2 vs Jund: Game 1 he didn't have any discard spells in his opener, and my T3 Blood Moon locked him out pretty hard, allowing me to resolve a huge LE on T5 for the win. Game 2, his T2 Scooze forced me to hurry up my LE, after which I experienced some land flood, while he laid down a Goyf and dealt with my creatures via plenty of Terminates, beating me down over a few turns.
Game 3 was one of the most intense games of Modern I've ever played. I was cycling like a madman while his discard effects stripped any LE enablers I found, his Liliana dropping to one counter to get rid of my Fulminator before ticking all the way up to nine as I dug for a Cascade spell. When I finally resolved a Dread, bringing back 8 creatures, my opponent used Lily's ultimate, offering me most of my lands plus two creatures or 6 creatures + Forbidden Orchard. I took the lands, which proved to be correct; he was holding massive amounts of spot removal, and keeping my mana allowed me to dig for yet another Cascade, which brought everything back and then some. 2-1
Round 3 vs Boros Burn: Game 1 my opponent tried to race me and it didn't work. Smooth cycling and relatively pain-free land plays let me resolve a strong T3 LE and win on T4.
Game 2 he tried to race again, and it would have worked, if not for the Brindle Boar squad. I played one on T3, another on T4, and a third on T5, all that lifegain and blocking value putting me far out of reach when I brought them all back with a T6 cascade. 2-0
Round 4 vs. Bushwhacker Zoo: A pretty easy matchup for us, which went more or less as expected both games: he tried to go wide and fast Game 1 and got wiped, then soft-locked by Blood Moon; he tried to play cagey Game 2 and got outvalued by big dumb cyclers. We played a Game 3 for fun, and his sideboarded Rest In Peace showed up, giving him the win, so be wary of that--otherwise, this might be our 80/20 matchup. 2-0
First place on the night with a 4-0/8-1 record. Absolutely thrilled with the added power and consistency the Amonkhet crew brings to the table.
The only aspect of my play that had me second-guessing things was sideboarding against Jund. What do you all typically swap in and out in that matchup?
Shriekmaws taking place of the slower cyclers for scooze and that's about it.
The matchup is generally considered to be one of the more favorable ones to begin with.