With the printing of Desert Cerodon and Horror of the Broken Lands, most people will probably choose to play a Jund variant of Living End. So it seems unlikely that they'll want it, but a blue variant isn't totally impossible to build.
I think Blue is interesting for the SB possibility of removing the combo and turning into a cycling value deck w/Drake Haven and Faith of the Devoted.
One thing I tested out the past few weeks is Kari zerv expertise... You should run 1 for my opinion
It's a good card to play a living end in hand. With so many cyclers the chance you draw a living end will be greater.
It's a game changer/finisher. You can just play it to take an opponent monster and not cast libing end if you got it... You take the biggest creature or the one with an evasion.... Or you just take their only defenses...
It's like our cascade spell, we can just cast those for the primary effect.
Kari Zev's Expertise is the truth for the reasons you say, friend. This is the only recent printing that is unambiguously good for the deck.
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Legacy:GWR/GWB Maverick; BRReanimator Modern:GW Elves; Living End Pauper: Stompy; RW Tokens Beer: Miller High Life
One thing I tested out the past few weeks is Kari zerv expertise... You should run 1 for my opinion
It's a good card to play a living end in hand. With so many cyclers the chance you draw a living end will be greater.
It's a game changer/finisher. You can just play it to take an opponent monster and not cast libing end if you got it... You take the biggest creature or the one with an evasion.... Or you just take their only defenses...
It's like our cascade spell, we can just cast those for the primary effect.
Kari Zev's Expertise is the truth for the reasons you say, friend. This is the only recent printing that is unambiguously good for the deck.
Having played a fair amount of larger tournaments with Living End, I will say that I have won many games off Kari Zev's because she makes combat math impossible for your opponent - especially if they don't know you run it/expect it.
I got some testing in with Amonkhet cards in Living End on Cockatrice, and here are my results:
If you keep Simian Spirit Guide, Desert Cerodon is the truth. If you don't keep SSG, Cerodon is still dang good. Given our Scars land-heavy mana base, I find Cerodon's R easier to cycle than Architects of Will/Horror of the Broken Lands's B. Besides, Architects insist on adding an artifact to the graveyard right when opposing Goyfs want to see more card types. Thus, I'd easily prioritize Cerodon over Architects/Horror.
Archfiend of Ifnir feels inefficient and expensive to cycle in comparison (even at a mere 2). Its true power is as a maindeck meta call, though. In testing, this ran over Elves and saved my butt against Affinity post-Living End. It was even able to overcome Affinity saccing its entire board to Arcbound Ravager in response to the first Living End! It'll probably be good against Infect, especially since the -1/-1 counters ensure that pump can only save their Infect dudes for the rest of the turn. I think how common Archfiend will be in maindecks depends on how much Affinity/Infect/Elves/weenies you expect...and Affinity is still pretty common, I find.
I agree that Kari Zev's Expertise is a great 1-of in this deck--it lets me keep more hands and gives me the inevitability that I can cast 3 Living Ends in a game if necessary. I have such horrid luck with Cockatrice's shuffler, anyway...I swear it shuffles worse than paper Magic...
I really don't feel it's necessary for us to reinvent the wheel here just in light of our new cyclers, as I think we have far more to lose with color screw than we have to gain with the added power of these one mana cyclers.
I plan to replace Architects of Will with Horror of the Broken Lands since Architects is, practically speaking, a one mana cycler anyway, Jungle Weaver with Greater Sandwurm, and basically call it a day after that. Carabid is definitely staying to ensure I have color flexible cycling options, and the only other card I might seriously look at replacing is Deadshot Minotaur so as to stop killing my own Faerie Macabre.
Outside of new cards, I'm probably going to give Avalanche Riders a slot in my upcoming builds, which as I recall was actually the original iteration of this deck when Modern was first announced some six years ago. Can anyone give me the low-down on why this has seen a return in popularity?
With the new rules change has anyone thought of splashing white for wear//tear in the sb over ingot chewer? Its a cheap way of dealing with RiP or Leyline as well as the standard artifacts that ingot chewer is there to deal with in the first place.
Yes, Expertise replaces the fourth Dread. 4/3/3/1 of Outburst/Dread/LE/Expertise is where you want to be if you're running Expertise at all (which I highly recommend). Beast Within is more of a flex slot that shouldn't be categorized alongside the combo enablers in a conceptual sense, IMO.
Again, that's a meta call. I run Trap as an answer to decks that pack Remand and other counterspells, while I skip out on Slaughter Games because there's nothing like Ad Nauseum kicking around.
They're 100% necessary against Burn unless you want to punt the matchup, which some will advise. Personally, I can't afford to lose most of the time against Burn because it's so common where I play.
I prefer Boar over Gnaw; it's more versatile and less conditional, but its ceiling is also lower. The GG in Finks' casting cost might be an issue for some manabases, especially if you're trying to power out a T2 blocker via Simian Guide against Burn or Zoo. Pulse is interesting tech, but I've never tried it out.
I've had success with Jund Charm's versatility, but Anger is the clear winner if you're after a sweeper. The exile clause lets us rest easy with a resolved LE forthcoming. Shriekmaw is your best bet for sideboard spot removal unless black and artifact creatures rule the roost in your local meta.
Your list is looking nice. It's a great place to start, and after testing it you can decide whether you want to specialize into more maindeck spot removal, land hate, etc. I suspect that three Archfiends might prove to be overkill, but I haven't been able to test any of the Amonkhet toys yet, so that's just a speculation. Try it out and let us know how it plays.
@Typo, Avalanche Riders are in favor because the meta has slowed, making them a) playable at CMC 4, b) useful with the rise of manlands in Midrange/control decks, c) even more useful against Tron, d) awesome in conjunction with Blood Moon, turning their nonbasics into Mountains and then destroying and basics they do have for good measure.
With the new rules change has anyone thought of splashing white for wear//tear in the sb over ingot chewer? Its a cheap way of dealing with RiP or Leyline as well as the standard artifacts that ingot chewer is there to deal with in the first place.
The answer is dependent on the meta.
For instance, right now, wear//tear is probably not needed because we're no longer in the dredge heavy meta that required black leyline and while Rest in Peace still sees play, we don't need to worry about it for certain decks. White based creature decks like DnT, Sisters, naya midrange that might play rest in peace are still weak to the board wipe portion of living end and we can afford to just rely on beast within to deal with them or simply hardcast creatures after expending our 3 board wipes.
Now RIP in a U/W/x control deck is a different story because they don't rely on a critical mass of creatures and want to control the pace of the game. Forcing a living end through for the creature pressure is our ticket out of that matchup before they drown us out in CA. RIP is very good in that deck against us for stopping the much needed reanimation. Luckily, blue based control decks are at an all time low right now so I don't think we need wear//tear just yet.
Is it me or am I just not that excited about the new cycling creatures? They are good, but what I like the most about Monstrous Carabid and Deadshot Minotaur is that they can cycle for 2 colors on turn 1. Cerodon and Horror are meatier, but mana might be an issue. Also, the flying one is interresting, but I wouldn't be so keen to bin Jungle Weaver : reach is a great ability and Architects of Will are also useful for messing up the next draws of our opponents as well as fixing ours (works great in conjunction with a fetch).
I haven't tested the new cards yet, but I wouldn't put to garbage right away the land destruction plan that's been ou bread and butter for so long as well as valuable creatures that are great to run. I mean, our problem has never been to have the biggest body of the table, because when we wrath, we usually slam 9-16 power on the table, so that's good enough to win in a couple of turns. The most interesting card to me that seems valuable is Kari Zev's Expertise. This one could become a nice addition.
I've been testing the new cards and I'm completely blown away with how fast you fill the GY and go off on T3/4. I was playing the blood moon version and did the following changes:
Kessig Wolf Run might just be replaced with another Blooming Marsh because its probably unneeded now. The creatures we have are so strong now that the game almost ways ends in one swing.
I actually also agree that we can't afford to drop any hybrid-mana cyclers in 2 Jund colours, including Deadshot Minotaur--without a fetch-heavy mana base, I've found that my mana is inconsistent enough that I thank my lucky stars for Carabid/Deadshot. Desert Cerodon is still dang good, though, and I'm playing 4 of them alongside 4 Carabids and 4 Deadshot.
I'm finding that I see Archfiend of Ifnir often enough as a 2-of--because it's so pricey to cycle, I can't support 3 of it.
Is anyone else trying Dead // Gone maindeck? Having 1-mana removal feels great, I find, even if what I kill comes back from the dead post-Living End.
Yes, Expertise replaces the fourth Dread. 4/3/3/1 of Outburst/Dread/LE/Expertise is where you want to be if you're running Expertise at all (which I highly recommend).
How can the 1st expertise be better than the 4th Dread ?
Expertise and Dread both Require a target. They both stop a creature from blocking. Expertise gets in 2-6 damages in, BUT it requires Living End in hand to be an enabler to our combo. We all hate drawing Living End obviously, but I'm convinced Demonic Dread is better: you have more or less 50% of chance of having 1 or more Living End in hand midgame (rough approximation). This means that half the time, Exeprtise is a nearly dead card as opposed to DD which will always be live assuming you have a target, and Expertise needs a target too.
Now I know that Expertise is a Threaten when you need it, but the number of games you'll win because of the Threaten effect will be much lower than the number of games you'll lose because Expertise wasn't DD. We're not playing our Cascaders for the primary effect even though it's sometimes nice.
Expertise looks reasonable to me but only if you're already playing 8 Cascaders and want a 9th Enabler, against a discard heavy meta for example.
Is it worth reconsidering the Ghor-Clan Rampager? I often run one for the surprise value and he's an easy hard-cast on the bodies-to-win plan. If dropped on the Horror of the Broken Lands he gives +6/+5 and trample and other HotBL benefit too. Also useful with the Archfiend of Ifnir. And in a similar vein am sideboarding Nahiri's Wrath for post-LE wipes and pesky walkers and the benefit granted to the new black cyclers.
Oh and P.S.
How in the hell does LE beat Lantern Control?
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Standard // nRG Aggro
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
Oh and P.S.
How in the hell does LE beat Lantern Control?
In old living end you had to have a Beast Within game one that they didn't mill or stack it using architects triggers and hope they never drew it. Now we don't have architects, but game two you can get it by having Beast Within, Ingot Chewer, or Pulse of Murasa targeting Chewer if you have pulse in the SB (which may be correct over boar right now that Harsh Mentor is a card)
Is anyone else trying Dead // Gone maindeck? Having 1-mana removal feels great, I find, even if what I kill comes back from the dead post-Living End.
I toyed with the idea of dead//gone; however I think maw is just superior in that he represents a clock in addition to killing the creature we care about (scooze, eidolon)
How can the 1st expertise be better than the 4th Dread ?
Expertise and Dread both Require a target. They both stop a creature from blocking. Expertise gets in 2-6 damages in, BUT it requires Living End in hand to be an enabler to our combo. We all hate drawing Living End obviously, but I'm convinced Demonic Dread is better: you have more or less 50% of chance of having 1 or more Living End in hand midgame (rough approximation). This means that half the time, Exeprtise is a nearly dead card as opposed to DD which will always be live assuming you have a target, and Expertise needs a target too.
Now I know that Expertise is a Threaten when you need it, but the number of games you'll win because of the Threaten effect will be much lower than the number of games you'll lose because Expertise wasn't DD. We're not playing our Cascaders for the primary effect even though it's sometimes nice.
Expertise looks reasonable to me but only if you're already playing 8 Cascaders and want a 9th Enabler, against a discard heavy meta for example.
Firstly, Expertise will generally get well more than 2-6 extra damage in. I'd say you can count on it getting x+5 damage through, given a typical board state (x being the borrowed creature's power; 5 being the average of a now-unblocked Cerodon/Archfiend/Horror (pumpable)/Carabid/Architects/Minotaur).
Further, I'd actually contend that Expertise is less likely to be a dead card than the 8th Cascade spell. Threaten is better in more scenarios than Dread's secondary effect. While Cascading into our combo is of utmost import, how often have you been cycling and hitting land drops while failing to hit a Cascade spell? I haven't run the numbers, but I have to say from my own experience that such a scenario is more uncommon than getting an LE or two stuck in hand.
Finally, our consistency in terms of hitting Cascade spells should only increase with the new cyclers. By all means run 8 spells + Expertise if you're getting combo enablers stripped from your hand via discard, but otherwise it's hard to see how we lose much in swapping out the 4th Dread.
The thing is I was comparing expertise to DD, and so I just counted the damage Expertise did that DD wouldn't get through. So as both stop a creature from blocking, I didn't take this into account and evaluated your x to be 2-6.
Actually, I think that I lose a lot of games cause of not drawing a cascade spell, and not only against discard decks. I just often keep hands like 3 cyclers, 3 lands, and a fulminator mage and maybe I shouldn't, but about 35-40% of my loss come from just not drawing a cascade/a 2nd cascade.
Have been looking at SCG for the past 2 weeks. Archfiend of Ifnir is selling like hotcake.. only 7 left now. Seems like plenty of people are eager to test the card.
I think Blue is interesting for the SB possibility of removing the combo and turning into a cycling value deck w/Drake Haven and Faith of the Devoted.
Kari Zev's Expertise is the truth for the reasons you say, friend. This is the only recent printing that is unambiguously good for the deck.
Modern: GW Elves; Living End
Pauper: Stompy; RW Tokens
Beer: Miller High Life
Having played a fair amount of larger tournaments with Living End, I will say that I have won many games off Kari Zev's because she makes combat math impossible for your opponent - especially if they don't know you run it/expect it.
If you keep Simian Spirit Guide, Desert Cerodon is the truth. If you don't keep SSG, Cerodon is still dang good. Given our Scars land-heavy mana base, I find Cerodon's R easier to cycle than Architects of Will/Horror of the Broken Lands's B. Besides, Architects insist on adding an artifact to the graveyard right when opposing Goyfs want to see more card types. Thus, I'd easily prioritize Cerodon over Architects/Horror.
Archfiend of Ifnir feels inefficient and expensive to cycle in comparison (even at a mere 2). Its true power is as a maindeck meta call, though. In testing, this ran over Elves and saved my butt against Affinity post-Living End. It was even able to overcome Affinity saccing its entire board to Arcbound Ravager in response to the first Living End! It'll probably be good against Infect, especially since the -1/-1 counters ensure that pump can only save their Infect dudes for the rest of the turn. I think how common Archfiend will be in maindecks depends on how much Affinity/Infect/Elves/weenies you expect...and Affinity is still pretty common, I find.
I agree that Kari Zev's Expertise is a great 1-of in this deck--it lets me keep more hands and gives me the inevitability that I can cast 3 Living Ends in a game if necessary. I have such horrid luck with Cockatrice's shuffler, anyway...I swear it shuffles worse than paper Magic...
Does it replace the 4th Demonic Dread (assuming the deck keeps 3x Beast Within, 3x Living End and 4x Violent Outburst as its spells) ?
Is Shriekmaw good enough to maindeck ? (over other options like Avalanche Riders/Faerie Macabre/Greater Sandwurm)
Are cards like Slaughter Games/Ricochet Trap necessary for the SB at the moment ?
Out of the lifegain options for the deck which is better: Pulse of Murasa, Brindle Boar, Kitchen Finks, Gnaw to the Bone ?
Are they necessary for the SB against Burn ?
Is a 3-mana sweeper like Anger of the Gods/Sweltering Suns/Firespout/Jund Charm necessary in the SB ?
Or would more spot removal like: Shriekmaw, Maelstrom Pulse, Dismember, Hero's Downfall be better ?
How is this list:
4x Street Wraith
4x Desert Cerodon
4x Horror of the Broken Lands
4x Monstrous Carabid
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Fulminator Mage
3x Archfiend of Ifnir
Sorcery (7)
3x Living End
3x Demonic Dread
1x Kari Zev's Expertise
4x Violent Outburst
3x Beast Within
Land (19)
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Blood Crypt
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
4x Copperline Gorge
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
3x Faerie Macabre
2x Shriekmaw
3x Ingot Chewer
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Beast Within
1x Krosan Grip
1x Pulse of Murasa
2x Ricochet Trap
I plan to replace Architects of Will with Horror of the Broken Lands since Architects is, practically speaking, a one mana cycler anyway, Jungle Weaver with Greater Sandwurm, and basically call it a day after that. Carabid is definitely staying to ensure I have color flexible cycling options, and the only other card I might seriously look at replacing is Deadshot Minotaur so as to stop killing my own Faerie Macabre.
Outside of new cards, I'm probably going to give Avalanche Riders a slot in my upcoming builds, which as I recall was actually the original iteration of this deck when Modern was first announced some six years ago. Can anyone give me the low-down on why this has seen a return in popularity?
Yes, Expertise replaces the fourth Dread. 4/3/3/1 of Outburst/Dread/LE/Expertise is where you want to be if you're running Expertise at all (which I highly recommend). Beast Within is more of a flex slot that shouldn't be categorized alongside the combo enablers in a conceptual sense, IMO.
Meta call for sure.
Again, that's a meta call. I run Trap as an answer to decks that pack Remand and other counterspells, while I skip out on Slaughter Games because there's nothing like Ad Nauseum kicking around.
They're 100% necessary against Burn unless you want to punt the matchup, which some will advise. Personally, I can't afford to lose most of the time against Burn because it's so common where I play.
I prefer Boar over Gnaw; it's more versatile and less conditional, but its ceiling is also lower. The GG in Finks' casting cost might be an issue for some manabases, especially if you're trying to power out a T2 blocker via Simian Guide against Burn or Zoo. Pulse is interesting tech, but I've never tried it out.
I've had success with Jund Charm's versatility, but Anger is the clear winner if you're after a sweeper. The exile clause lets us rest easy with a resolved LE forthcoming. Shriekmaw is your best bet for sideboard spot removal unless black and artifact creatures rule the roost in your local meta.
Your list is looking nice. It's a great place to start, and after testing it you can decide whether you want to specialize into more maindeck spot removal, land hate, etc. I suspect that three Archfiends might prove to be overkill, but I haven't been able to test any of the Amonkhet toys yet, so that's just a speculation. Try it out and let us know how it plays.
@Typo, Avalanche Riders are in favor because the meta has slowed, making them a) playable at CMC 4, b) useful with the rise of manlands in Midrange/control decks, c) even more useful against Tron, d) awesome in conjunction with Blood Moon, turning their nonbasics into Mountains and then destroying and basics they do have for good measure.
The answer is dependent on the meta.
For instance, right now, wear//tear is probably not needed because we're no longer in the dredge heavy meta that required black leyline and while Rest in Peace still sees play, we don't need to worry about it for certain decks. White based creature decks like DnT, Sisters, naya midrange that might play rest in peace are still weak to the board wipe portion of living end and we can afford to just rely on beast within to deal with them or simply hardcast creatures after expending our 3 board wipes.
Now RIP in a U/W/x control deck is a different story because they don't rely on a critical mass of creatures and want to control the pace of the game. Forcing a living end through for the creature pressure is our ticket out of that matchup before they drown us out in CA. RIP is very good in that deck against us for stopping the much needed reanimation. Luckily, blue based control decks are at an all time low right now so I don't think we need wear//tear just yet.
I haven't tested the new cards yet, but I wouldn't put to garbage right away the land destruction plan that's been ou bread and butter for so long as well as valuable creatures that are great to run. I mean, our problem has never been to have the biggest body of the table, because when we wrath, we usually slam 9-16 power on the table, so that's good enough to win in a couple of turns. The most interesting card to me that seems valuable is Kari Zev's Expertise. This one could become a nice addition.
Cheers!
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
-2 Blood Moon
-2 Pale Recluse
-1 Twisted Abomination
-2 Faerie Macabre
-2 Avalanche Riders
-1 Deadshot Minotaur
+4 Desert Cerodon
+4 Horror of the Broken Lands
+2 Archfiend of Ifnir
Key take always so far:
I've had zero mana problems in terms of having the right colors to cycle.
I've gone off on T3 with 17 power on the board and that's from 3x creatures.
I've went off on T4 multiple times with 30+ power.
Archfiend of Ifnir seems amazing but does feel honestly slow and cumbersome. Maybe mono 1 CMC cyclers might be the way to go.
Here's my deck list:
4x Street Wraith
4x Monstrous Carabid
4x Horror of the Broken Lands
4x Desert Cerodon
3x Deadshot Minotaur
2x Archfiend of Ifnir
4x Fulminator Mage
3x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Violent Outburst
3x Demonic Dread
2x Beast Within
1x Kari Zev's Expertise
3x Living End
Land (19)
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Bloodstained Mire
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Blooming Marsh
1x Blood Crypt
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Kessig Wolf Run
Kessig Wolf Run might just be replaced with another Blooming Marsh because its probably unneeded now. The creatures we have are so strong now that the game almost ways ends in one swing.
Modern
Ad Nauseam
Dredge
Living End
Legacy
Lands
I'm finding that I see Archfiend of Ifnir often enough as a 2-of--because it's so pricey to cycle, I can't support 3 of it.
Is anyone else trying Dead // Gone maindeck? Having 1-mana removal feels great, I find, even if what I kill comes back from the dead post-Living End.
Expertise and Dread both Require a target. They both stop a creature from blocking. Expertise gets in 2-6 damages in, BUT it requires Living End in hand to be an enabler to our combo. We all hate drawing Living End obviously, but I'm convinced Demonic Dread is better: you have more or less 50% of chance of having 1 or more Living End in hand midgame (rough approximation). This means that half the time, Exeprtise is a nearly dead card as opposed to DD which will always be live assuming you have a target, and Expertise needs a target too.
Now I know that Expertise is a Threaten when you need it, but the number of games you'll win because of the Threaten effect will be much lower than the number of games you'll lose because Expertise wasn't DD. We're not playing our Cascaders for the primary effect even though it's sometimes nice.
Expertise looks reasonable to me but only if you're already playing 8 Cascaders and want a 9th Enabler, against a discard heavy meta for example.
Faerie Macabre vs. Leyline of the Void
Go.
Oh and P.S.
How in the hell does LE beat Lantern Control?
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
In old living end you had to have a Beast Within game one that they didn't mill or stack it using architects triggers and hope they never drew it. Now we don't have architects, but game two you can get it by having Beast Within, Ingot Chewer, or Pulse of Murasa targeting Chewer if you have pulse in the SB (which may be correct over boar right now that Harsh Mentor is a card)
I toyed with the idea of dead//gone; however I think maw is just superior in that he represents a clock in addition to killing the creature we care about (scooze, eidolon)
Firstly, Expertise will generally get well more than 2-6 extra damage in. I'd say you can count on it getting x+5 damage through, given a typical board state (x being the borrowed creature's power; 5 being the average of a now-unblocked Cerodon/Archfiend/Horror (pumpable)/Carabid/Architects/Minotaur).
Further, I'd actually contend that Expertise is less likely to be a dead card than the 8th Cascade spell. Threaten is better in more scenarios than Dread's secondary effect. While Cascading into our combo is of utmost import, how often have you been cycling and hitting land drops while failing to hit a Cascade spell? I haven't run the numbers, but I have to say from my own experience that such a scenario is more uncommon than getting an LE or two stuck in hand.
Finally, our consistency in terms of hitting Cascade spells should only increase with the new cyclers. By all means run 8 spells + Expertise if you're getting combo enablers stripped from your hand via discard, but otherwise it's hard to see how we lose much in swapping out the 4th Dread.
Actually, I think that I lose a lot of games cause of not drawing a cascade spell, and not only against discard decks. I just often keep hands like 3 cyclers, 3 lands, and a fulminator mage and maybe I shouldn't, but about 35-40% of my loss come from just not drawing a cascade/a 2nd cascade.
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