I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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i dont know about why most people consider dropping monstrous carabid of the list. i am more inclined to drop deadshot minotaur in the favor of desert cerodon. many people will jump to living end bandwagon so i will definitely have 4 faerie macabre and with minotaur gone the faerie is now an effective card.
for your information most good living end list didn't bring jungle weaver, most 2 mana cyclers are land cyclers (twisted abomination, pale recluse). so the idea of greater sandwurm is cute but unless your entire metagame consist of W/B token i would say its unneccessary
anyway amonkhet is good for living end, lets just hope that the horror of the broken lands is not the irony card that gets living end to the land of the broken and gets banned.
lots of good cyclers from amonkhet for us to change up and add in, but let me put a BUT into the conversation.
no on has mentioned the pros and cons of and cyclers that we already use verse new solid and cyclers. this can affect our opening hands pushing our primary color more into black than the already red.
A few people have indeed mentioned that already, including myself; but yes, it's a real question, and it bears repeating.
Personally, I'll be centering my first brews around creatures that cycle for B or B/X. Ensuring a near-guaranteed T1 Cycle play shouldn't be too difficult between Blackcleave Cliffs, Blooming Marsh, and fetchlands. Black mana access on T1, red mana access on T2, and green mana access by T3 are the standards I'm going for; with that in mind, Horror is the most desirable of the new cyclers, while Minotaur is the most likely of the old guard to get cut. Architects of Will are still very much in contention, IMO, between cycling for B and their immensely useful EtB trigger.
Edit: here's a quick five-minute attempt at rendering the above:
I think the deck will always be base red, it's just a matter of it's almost all red or red/black. Most of that thinking revolves around the fact that all the hybrids are red cyclers, SSG produces red, both of the Cascades need red, and blood moon being a thing.
My current build I am going to try will still be using Carabid and Desdshot, with the addition of Horror and Ceradon. I figure if the deck is just focused around 1 mana options then it is less likely for me to be without what I need when I need it, provided I play smart. Everything in the deck still cycles for red mana except the horror, so part of me is saying if I were to drop anything, it would be from there first. The list only needs green mana to cast beast within or a cascade, so many times the deck may literally only need to see a single green mana to win.
The lower emphasis on green mana and higher 1 mana cycler count also leads me to think Dryad arbor is not a good idea. I've been running Forbidden Orchard over it for some time and have liked it, with the exception of not being able to fish for it. Now that we have more cyclers I think Ill see it when i need it more frequently, though I may still consider going up to 2.
That being said, I do think if we see more 1 mana cyclers in the next set that merit play over what we already have (Deadshot or Carabid,) Then we may get to the point where we have to reconsider things a bit more actively. Especially if we see a 1 mana green cycler, because could potentially lead us into games where we cannot cycle because of our land base and opens up the posibility of us using more rainbow lands.
I think having some number of hybrid cyclers to smooth out the mana base is always going to be important and they will always get some slots in the list. As someone who plays this deck almost exclusively in modern I can attest to the fact that it is far more important to keep cycling things and use up as much of your mana as you can every game than it is to have bigger things in the yard. Carabids have gotten us there up until now, and while the horror or ceradon is strictly better once it is in play, the point of diminishing returns for them happens sooner. I would be willing to bet that there is very little difference in most post LE game states between having 3 Horrors on the field as having 2 horrors and a Carabid, but there is a much more pronounced difference in situations where you cannot cycle versus ones where you can.
As someone who only recently hopped on the Living End train in favor of Jund, why is everyone losing their ***** on the wurm that ''cant be blocked by lingering souls''?
I don't think everyone is losing their mind over it. Consensus seems to be that it's niche option, emphasis on niche.
If anything, I think there is too much hype over archfiend.
But most importantly: okay, cool, so your 7/7 wurm cant get blocked by the tokens. But your other dudes can. So they still chumpblock a ***** ton of your guys.
I think this is key. Not that I ever felt like Lingering souls was so great a threat that I needed to plan for it that heavily, but people are not used to playing LE with this many cyclers at such an elevated power level. You will most likely overwhelm souls players, even if they can churn out tokens, because your threats are going to be large enough that they absolutely have to block.
In that regard the fiend is much better because it is cheaper to hard cast and has more utility against other matches, but as a 2 mana cycler we are once again faced with the question of which would be better, a 5/4 flyer that can make things smaller, or just cycling two dudes who do not need anything else. Bear in mind that cycling 2 dudes instead of 1 means you are more likely to hit your cascades and lands than the deck running archfiend.
I suspect that unless we get some card in the future that makes 2 cycling costs more attractive, like a land that produces 2 colorless cycling mana or something like fluxuator, that we are going to wind up heavily siding with just using 1 mana cyclers.
Archfiend of Ifnir is really a HUGE replacement for jungle weaver and its really insane when it got to the battlefield. U just cycle another card to clear opponent pesky creatures not to mention it really do a well combo with Horror of the broken Lands. I just kill 2 scavenging ooze that come back from gv to bf and deal 13 dmg because 5 from archfined and 8 from horror that combo is insane
Modern
------
Boros/Naya/Mardu Burn Abzan Rhino non Noble Hierach not active Jund Tarmoless not active
DnT White
Living End Jund Restore Balance Non Borderpost/ Borderpost not active U/W Titan Control not active Mardu Nahiri/Control not active
I just played another local tournament with Living End, with slightly better results.
Round 1
UW Control 2-0
Round 2
GW Lifegain 0-2
Round 3
Merfolk 2-0
Round 4
Grixis Control 2-0
I'm really surprised how well I did against blue. I thought it will be much more difficult but land distruption along with traps from SB did the job.
I had an insane first game against Merfolk: I was on the play and cycled a carabid and 3 wraiths 1st turn, cycled abomination 2nd and cast demonic dread 3rd turn on his lord of atlantis -> scoop.
Regarding lifegain deck, I mulled to 6 in both games and kept a mediocre hand instead of going to five. Never played this deck before but it turns out I have to win quickly because if the drops Angelic Accord and Seanse then I can't win anymore.
I'm also excited about new Amonkhet cards, will try to grab as much as possible at the prerelease.
Archfiend of Ifnir is really a HUGE replacement for jungle weaver and its really insane when it got to the battlefield. U just cycle another card to clear opponent pesky creatures not to mention it really do a well combo with Horror of the broken Lands. I just kill 2 scavenging ooze that come back from gv to bf and deal 13 dmg because 5 from archfined and 8 from horror that combo is insane
Glad to see someone making use of the strong new black cards. Archfiend is killer for some decks, and the new Horror can grow larger than a titan.
I'm just a bit worried that people might start packing more grave hate if Living End starts putting better results.
Someone on facebook told me that Sandwurm isn't a good replacement for Jungle Weaver because the reach is too important. IMO Reach is so negligible that it basically does nothing. Delver isn't even a creature in the 50 most used creatures in modern. Sandwurm > Jungleweaver
Reach does very good things vs Affinity. But to me, that's just an argument for Archfiend because he still blocks the fliers, flies himself, and in that particular matchup, he machine guns their guys post LE. In fact, he could single handedly make their Arcbound Ravager draws much less of a problem and he kills Etched Champion, which was always their other way of killing us post LE before we got them dead (besides Inkmoth/Blinkmoth).
Exactly, one of the two has to be better than Jungle Weaver, even if you don't believe both are. Archfiend killing champion + manlands at instant speed is definitely a big game.
I think I may be inclined to just replace some of the scant basic lands I have with more shocklands, rather than skimp out on these additional one mana cyclers due to their single color requirements. I do admit that the biggest upside to the one mana cyclers we currently have is their split cost, and there have been more than a few occasions that I only had one side or the other. But these new cyclers all come in at a tremendous power level, and are such huge upgrades to some of the less desirable cyclers we currently have that we just need to find room for them. Granted, more shocks makes us more vulnerable to Blood Moon, but if that's not a realistic threat I'm ready to go all in on these.
As for the new 7/7 wurm, I see no reason not to play this over Jungle Weaver. We're all about going as wide as possible with as much pressure as possible, and the situation is no more complicated than a 7/7 being larger than a 5/6. Yes, the Weaver can block creatures with flying, but we're not in the business of planning our strategy around creature defense, we're in the business of forcing our opponent into a position of either blocking with next to everything they have or dying.
What do you think would be the now ideal deck list based on testing. Along with this do you think forbidden orchard might be safer to play now thanks to the Archfiend of Ifnir existing.
What do you think would be the now ideal deck list based on testing. Along with this do you think forbidden orchard might be safer to play now thanks to the Archfiend of Ifnir existing.
Wow boy ! Not so fast ! The cards aren't out yet, how do you want us to make lists based on any kind of relevant testing sessions ?...
Player's level is all over the place on Cockatrice so I wouldn't count that as proper testing unless you're taking part in some kind of league.
Here is the list I'm thinking of trying out first. Took a couple sideboard options fron some people on the thread. I'm also use to the white splash because I use to run 2 Stony Silence, a Kataki, War's Wage, and a couple Pale Recluses.
I feel as if my mana is a bit messy however. Wolf has been great but I might switch it out for a Forbidden Orchard.
I could well be wrong, but to me there aren't many compelling reasons to move away from Blood Moon, land destruction, or utility spells.
The non-creature cards in our deck give us game against matchups where resolving a decent LE is either difficult or not enough to win on its own. Therefore, the way forward seems to be sticking to those Plan Bs while taking advantage of the ways our new creatures make Plan A stronger.
sideboard vs?
At 3 mana, I rather drop Blood Moon and win hardcasting something.
for your information most good living end list didn't bring jungle weaver, most 2 mana cyclers are land cyclers (twisted abomination, pale recluse). so the idea of greater sandwurm is cute but unless your entire metagame consist of W/B token i would say its unneccessary
anyway amonkhet is good for living end, lets just hope that the horror of the broken lands is not the irony card that gets living end to the land of the broken and gets banned.
no on has mentioned the pros and cons of and cyclers that we already use verse new solid and cyclers. this can affect our opening hands pushing our primary color more into black than the already red.
Personally, I'll be centering my first brews around creatures that cycle for B or B/X. Ensuring a near-guaranteed T1 Cycle play shouldn't be too difficult between Blackcleave Cliffs, Blooming Marsh, and fetchlands. Black mana access on T1, red mana access on T2, and green mana access by T3 are the standards I'm going for; with that in mind, Horror is the most desirable of the new cyclers, while Minotaur is the most likely of the old guard to get cut. Architects of Will are still very much in contention, IMO, between cycling for B and their immensely useful EtB trigger.
Edit: here's a quick five-minute attempt at rendering the above:
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Desert Cerodon
4 Horror of the Broken Lands
2 Architects of Will
1 Pale Recluse
1 Archfiend of Ifnir
3 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Beast Within
2 Blood Moon
4 Violent Outburst
3 Demonic Dread
3 Living End
1 Kari Zev's Expertise
Sucks to cut Avalanche Riders when maindecking Blood Moon, but otherwise I'm extremely happy with how this is shaping up at first glance.
My current build I am going to try will still be using Carabid and Desdshot, with the addition of Horror and Ceradon. I figure if the deck is just focused around 1 mana options then it is less likely for me to be without what I need when I need it, provided I play smart. Everything in the deck still cycles for red mana except the horror, so part of me is saying if I were to drop anything, it would be from there first. The list only needs green mana to cast beast within or a cascade, so many times the deck may literally only need to see a single green mana to win.
The lower emphasis on green mana and higher 1 mana cycler count also leads me to think Dryad arbor is not a good idea. I've been running Forbidden Orchard over it for some time and have liked it, with the exception of not being able to fish for it. Now that we have more cyclers I think Ill see it when i need it more frequently, though I may still consider going up to 2.
That being said, I do think if we see more 1 mana cyclers in the next set that merit play over what we already have (Deadshot or Carabid,) Then we may get to the point where we have to reconsider things a bit more actively. Especially if we see a 1 mana green cycler, because could potentially lead us into games where we cannot cycle because of our land base and opens up the posibility of us using more rainbow lands.
I think having some number of hybrid cyclers to smooth out the mana base is always going to be important and they will always get some slots in the list. As someone who plays this deck almost exclusively in modern I can attest to the fact that it is far more important to keep cycling things and use up as much of your mana as you can every game than it is to have bigger things in the yard. Carabids have gotten us there up until now, and while the horror or ceradon is strictly better once it is in play, the point of diminishing returns for them happens sooner. I would be willing to bet that there is very little difference in most post LE game states between having 3 Horrors on the field as having 2 horrors and a Carabid, but there is a much more pronounced difference in situations where you cannot cycle versus ones where you can.
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I don't think everyone is losing their mind over it. Consensus seems to be that it's niche option, emphasis on niche.
If anything, I think there is too much hype over archfiend.
I think this is key. Not that I ever felt like Lingering souls was so great a threat that I needed to plan for it that heavily, but people are not used to playing LE with this many cyclers at such an elevated power level. You will most likely overwhelm souls players, even if they can churn out tokens, because your threats are going to be large enough that they absolutely have to block.
In that regard the fiend is much better because it is cheaper to hard cast and has more utility against other matches, but as a 2 mana cycler we are once again faced with the question of which would be better, a 5/4 flyer that can make things smaller, or just cycling two dudes who do not need anything else. Bear in mind that cycling 2 dudes instead of 1 means you are more likely to hit your cascades and lands than the deck running archfiend.
I suspect that unless we get some card in the future that makes 2 cycling costs more attractive, like a land that produces 2 colorless cycling mana or something like fluxuator, that we are going to wind up heavily siding with just using 1 mana cyclers.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
Desert Cerodon
really improve the consistentcy by cycling.
Archfiend of Ifnir is really a HUGE replacement for jungle weaver and its really insane when it got to the battlefield. U just cycle another card to clear opponent pesky creatures not to mention it really do a well combo with Horror of the broken Lands. I just kill 2 scavenging ooze that come back from gv to bf and deal 13 dmg because 5 from archfined and 8 from horror that combo is insane
Faith of Devoted is really a good SB cards.
I mean I just did defeated a grixis control deck and he is got 2 leyline of the void in the BF. U guys should try it
Graveyard locked ? Living end get exiled because of Lost legacy ? Np just use Faith of Devoted to alternate win con
------
Boros/Naya/Mardu Burn
Abzan Rhino non Noble Hierachnot activeJund Tarmolessnot activeDnT White
Living End Jund
Restore Balance Non Borderpost/ Borderpostnot activeU/W Titan Controlnot activeMardu Nahiri/Controlnot activeRound 1
UW Control 2-0
Round 2
GW Lifegain 0-2
Round 3
Merfolk 2-0
Round 4
Grixis Control 2-0
I'm really surprised how well I did against blue. I thought it will be much more difficult but land distruption along with traps from SB did the job.
I had an insane first game against Merfolk: I was on the play and cycled a carabid and 3 wraiths 1st turn, cycled abomination 2nd and cast demonic dread 3rd turn on his lord of atlantis -> scoop.
Regarding lifegain deck, I mulled to 6 in both games and kept a mediocre hand instead of going to five. Never played this deck before but it turns out I have to win quickly because if the drops Angelic Accord and Seanse then I can't win anymore.
I'm also excited about new Amonkhet cards, will try to grab as much as possible at the prerelease.
Glad to see someone making use of the strong new black cards. Archfiend is killer for some decks, and the new Horror can grow larger than a titan.
I'm just a bit worried that people might start packing more grave hate if Living End starts putting better results.
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Exactly, one of the two has to be better than Jungle Weaver, even if you don't believe both are. Archfiend killing champion + manlands at instant speed is definitely a big game.
If anything, this feels like a possible transformational sideboard plan against decks with lots of counterspells...
EDIT: But probably too bad against Cryptic Command in that matchup so idk nvm
As for the new 7/7 wurm, I see no reason not to play this over Jungle Weaver. We're all about going as wide as possible with as much pressure as possible, and the situation is no more complicated than a 7/7 being larger than a 5/6. Yes, the Weaver can block creatures with flying, but we're not in the business of planning our strategy around creature defense, we're in the business of forcing our opponent into a position of either blocking with next to everything they have or dying.
Edit: and Archfiend!
Yea. Everyone has their own list. Mine is here
We can argue about the lists all day, but until actual testing is done, there is no "best list".
GB Graveyard(Rip Copter)Modern:
Dredge RBGU (AND WE BACK)
Suicide BlooUR(WotC Why )Living End RBG
Bloo MoonUR
Legacy:
Aluren BGU
I feel as if my mana is a bit messy however. Wolf has been great but I might switch it out for a Forbidden Orchard.
3 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Fulminator Mage
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
3 Archfiend of Ifnir
4 Desert Cerodon
4 Horror of the Broken Lands
//Instant (9)
3 Beast Within
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Violent Outburst
//Sorcery (7)
3 Demonic Dread
1 Kari Zev's Expertise
3 Living End
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
2 Copperline Gorge
1 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Crime // Punishment
1 Dismember
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Lost Legacy
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Shriekmaw
2 Wear // Tear
GWU Eldrazi
BRG Living End
WBG JunkFit
The non-creature cards in our deck give us game against matchups where resolving a decent LE is either difficult or not enough to win on its own. Therefore, the way forward seems to be sticking to those Plan Bs while taking advantage of the ways our new creatures make Plan A stronger.
That's funny, because I was going to ask why not cut 4 carabids?