It has come up for me more than enough in tourneys I have placed in / won to know it is a reality that you should face and understand. It's like saying if you play burn and your opponent in an event plays a leyline you should just stop playing the deck all together. I think the card has much more utility than this one fact, but it certainly is a facet to consider.
Hardcasting from scratch? As in they surgical effect the LE out of your deck before you can even fire off the first one? I'm assuming that's what you meant because when decks are over SBing to prep this effect, that's a good sign to switch decks. That's different than hardcasting on top of a board state already set up with a Living End, and In my experience as a living end one trick, there weren't that many scenarios where I was clamoring for a specific creature so much as just something to add to the board state.
The land cyclers also have limited utility in a deck that does not have a ton of basics and fetch lands. I've gone down to 2 Pales in my build, and even then sometimes they are junk in the long game where they are understated compared to the other options.
Land cyclers are meant for the early game, not the late game. They grab lands when we need them and most lists aren't running more than 20 so its not unheard of to not hit that 3rd land on schedule or have the right colors. And as a reminder, they can grab shocks, it doesn't require the land to be basic but part of the appeal in those landcyclers is that there is the option to grab a basic in the face of blood moon. Though even as a late game, a 4/5 reach walls a lot of threats, unless your meta is packed with gurmag anglers and primeval titans, the body of pale recluse is very solid on top of the early game impact it provides.
That would happen regardless of this or jungle weaver, that is not the problem this card is trying to address. A board full of creatures would die to a wrath and a jungle weaver would die to terminate or path as well.
I'm not arguing this card over jungle weaver, I think this card is better than jungle weaver. I just think two mana non-landcyclers have no place in living end right now given the speed of this format and the answers available.
So yes, a wrath would kill everything. But a lone terminate or path would not be able to deal with two one mana cyclers, it's a matter of tempo and efficiency and that's what modern is all about right now.
Yeah, I would totally run Archfiend in place of Jungle Weaver. In fact, I'm going to. The deck rarely has any problems going off, but it does sometimes face problems in closing out the game if you're not wide enough, because all most of our creatures are still just vanilla bodies that can be chump blocked while your opponent rebuilds their board over the next couple of turns and threatens to take over the game (that's why I run one Kessig Wolf Run to push through trample damage). So I like Archfiend for the same reason I like Street Wraith against anything running black: evasion. Not to mention that it gives us way more value to any cycling we do after we go off, and can much more easily be cast out of hand should it ever come to that. I currently run two 2 mana cyclers- Jungle Weaver and Twisted Abomination, so this will replace one or the other. Unless of course we get a bunch of awesome ona-mana cyclers in which case there might be any reason to run either.
That said, while I'm looking forward to any new tools the next set might give us, I almost don't want the deck to improve too much. One of the biggest advantages to Living End is how much it has managed to fly under the radar, and while everyone is packing *some* type of graveyard hate these days, no one is really gunning for Living End, and the last thing I want is for it to have a huge target on its head, since post-board hate is almost always better than our post-board answers to them. If we just get something to replace the two mana cyclers, or maybe something to replace either Architects Of Will or Deadshot Minotaur, I'll be happy.
I've played my first tournament with Living End yesterday.
And I have a question: I auto-mulliganed every hand with Living End in it. Was that a mistake? Is there any guide on mulligans with this deck?
We run three copies, so odds are better than average that you'll occasionally open up with one of them, but it's not an auto-mull. If you open with Living End and a couple of cyclers (and a couple of lands of course), I would almost always keep that, since you have a couple of ways to cycle through your deck on top of your natural draws so as to find more cyclers (and eventually go off). But if you open with something like Living End, Beast Within, Fulminator Mage, Faerie Macabre, then just throw it back, because you need to fill the yard up enough so that you can dump out by turn three through five a board that's wide enough to win. The only time I keep a cycle light hand is if I'm on the play and I have something like Fulminator Mage + Simian Spirit Guide, as a turn two Mage can be just devastating to nearly anyone.
Hey guys. I want to run this deck at a large local tournament after having set it aside for awhile. Unfortunately, my friend who does commentary for this tournament series says I should expect a ~10% Burn meta. He also told me that creature decks in general are popular, including 8whack, Elves, and GBx decks. I know the creature matchups favor us, but I'm worried about Burn.
Blue
You value knowledge, logic, and deceit. You love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At your best, you are brilliant and progressive. At your worst, you are treacherous and cold. Your symbol is a water droplet. Your enemies are green and red.
On the Archfiend issue, I currently don't run any landcyclers, instead i dedicated 2 slots for avalanche riders due to local heavy tron meta. But were that not the case, I totally would play 2 of these. Cycling creature with flying is big deal for us imho. Never had that before....it provides fast clock with evasion. And against certain decks, which can rebuild fast and wide after LE, archfiend provides reasonable tool for clearing their board without a need for another LE and thus killing your board too.
Second thing, Im also hoping for more cycling creatures, preferably 1 mana. And seeing that we're giving cycling bonus abilities now, in my magical christmas land, I wish for a card that says this: "when you cycle this, you may counter target instant (or sorcery) spell". What do you say? Would that make LE Tier 1 deck?
I really doubt Wizards will print anything that makes Living End oppressively good, although I am optimistic about getting new tools in general. Also, I think that if Wizards did print something that made Living End oppressively good, that they would probably ban the new card instead of Living End itself.
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Blue
You value knowledge, logic, and deceit. You love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At your best, you are brilliant and progressive. At your worst, you are treacherous and cold. Your symbol is a water droplet. Your enemies are green and red.
Meanwhile, we can all celebrate that cycling is back!
That's absolutely the best thing I have seen in months. I was nearly giving up on Living End and wanted to go on with something else, but Archfiend has rekindled my inner brewer.
I really hope some of the cycler will be appealing to Living End as I could use some fresh cards in the deck.
Cycling creature with flying is big deal for us imho. Never had that before....it provides fast clock with evasion.
I kept saying that the one cycler I wish was legal in Modern was Primoc Escapee, which I would happily play in LE - but now I don't even need to. Archfiend of Ifnir just blows it out of the water.
I am skeptical we will get cyclers cheaper than 2 at this point, or at least without a cost we cant afford to pay in bulk. If there were 1 mana cyclers i suspect it would be on creatures with a 1-2 cmc. I think one could make the argument from WOTC's point of view that 1 mana cyclers is a mistake, and 0 mana ones may even be worse. It just leaves the door open for abuse, and Living end itself is like 1-2 power increases away from being the boogey man.
My hope though is for other things from this set that promotes cycling
1 - Alternate wincons we can use that trigger of cycling and such
2 - Effect on cycle cards, both from cycling and because of it
3 - Better 2 mana options (already got that)
4 - A legendary land that taps for 2 mana that can only be used for cycling
Based on what we've seen of Amonkhet, there's a decent chance they reprint Deadshot Minotaur. If so, that would probably mean other one-mana cyclers. That's just speculation, of course.
More Astral Slide type effects would be nice. "Whenever a player cycles a card..." would be a fun effect to see once or twice in this set. Especially if it helps the Living End game plan.
Based on what we've seen of Amonkhet, there's a decent chance they reprint Deadshot Minotaur. If so, that would probably mean other one-mana cyclers. That's just speculation, of course.
More Astral Slide type effects would be nice. "Whenever a player cycles a card..." would be a fun effect to see once or twice in this set. Especially if it helps the Living End game plan.
why? minotaur is more greek than egypt for me (and god are probably monocolor, based on innovation vindicate and maelstrom pulse, so i dont think we will see multicolor hybrid mana)
i hope/expect to see a lot of vainilla 2 cc cycle (2 cc=draw is a thing with development and clues), and with cycling more than 2 and some additional effect.
It has to be a 3 CMC creature, that cycled for 1 colorless or hybrid mana, in a color we use, with stats better than 3/4 with a flyer bolt or 4/4 big thing or a 3/3 fateseal 3. I am not holding my breath.
just wish we have a set of on color, 1 mana cyclers. deadshot minotaur has been great but sometimes it kill damage potential of faerie macabre.
the new demon is fine but i can see it quickly relegated to sideboard replacing night of soul's betrayal if you still have any in your sideboard
its still early on the spoiler season, lets hope we got something new fro this set.
why? minotaur is more greek than egypt for me (and god are probably monocolor, based on innovation vindicate and maelstrom pulse, so i dont think we will see multicolor hybrid mana)
i hope/expect to see a lot of vainilla 2 cc cycle (2 cc=draw is a thing with development and clues), and with cycling more than 2 and some additional effect.
Guys, I played last Monday, so it's a late and short report, but still I thought I'd share it with you. I finished 4-0:
Match 1 : BW Tokens.
Result: 2-0.
Notes: easy matchup I think, but don't underestimate the speed of this deck. Won game 1 on the draw with a turn 4 Violent Outburst and had 2 Street Wraith, 2 Deadshot Minautor and 1 Pale Recluse. Won game 2 on the play on turn 5, cascading because things were getting out of hands. My life total was at 4.
Match 2 : UWR Control.
Result: 2-1.
Notes: I have a hard time with control decks. I think it's me that doesn't know how to deal with them optimally. After losing game 1, the Fulminator Mages were pretty handy and I boarded in also my 2 Avalanche Riders as well as my 2 Ricochet Trap. It was good to blow up some lands, especially the Celestial Colonnade. Game 2 and 3 were long.
Match 3 : Scapeshift.
Result: 2-1.
Notes: pretty much the same thing as in the other matchup. Land destruction and filling up the 'yard on a faster clock.
Match 4 : Junk Company.
Result: 2-0.
Notes: that was the matchup I was waiting for! Such a blast to play against this deck: it feels like the old days, but much easier to get around that Pod. They rely so much on creatures that I had to cascade by turn 4 each game, but after that, it was in the pocket. It's a very favorable matchup.
Overall, I'm getting more comfortable playing the deck and it gets easier each time pulling out the wins.
Against Burn:
- IN : 4 Brindle Boar.
- OUT : 4 Street Wraith.
Against Affinity:
- IN : 3 Ingot Chewer and 1 Jund Charm (maybe a couple of Brindle Boar).
- OUT : 4 Street Wraith.
Against Grixis Delver:
- IN : 3 Ricochet Trap, 2 Shriekmaw and 1 Jund Charm
- OUT : 2 Street Wraith, 2 Architect of Will and 2 Simian Spirit Guide (or 3 Street Wraith and 3 Architect of Will).
Against Goryo's Vengeance:
- IN : 2 Faerie Macabre.
- OUT : 2 Street Wraith.
Against Soul Sisters:
- IN : 2 Shriekmaw and 1 Jund Charm.
- OUT : 3 Simian Spirit Guide.
Against Amulet Titan:
- IN : 3 Ingot Chewer.
- OUT : 2 Demonic Dread and 1 Jungle Weaver.
Against Grixis Control:
- IN : 3 Ricochet Trap.
- OUT : 2 Best Within and 1 Simian Spirit Guide.
Against Merfolk:
- IN : 2 Faerie Macabre and 2 Shriekmaw.
- OUT : 3 Simian Spirit Guide and 1 Jungle Weaver (or a 2/2 split between the two of them).
Against Burn:
- IN : 4 Brindle Boar.
- OUT : 4 Street Wraith.
This caught my eye, no shriekmaw? We need to conserve as much life as possible and blunting the initial attacks on turn 2 goes a long way and a absolute windmill slam on the eidolon for sure.
I'm not always sure to bring in Shriekmaw. It's surely a great card to clear out Eidolon, but I wrath mostly on turn 2-3 against Burn, so Eidolon doesn't have much time to do stuff (4 damages at most).
Well it's debatable on the play, heck I even keep some number of street wraiths in if i'm on the play but being on the draw against burn is definitely a defensive game, and that is what shriekmaw can do for us. It doesn't have to hit the Eidolon (though it is a great feeling), it can hit any of their opening creatures to give us breathing room and not force a subpar living end.
Well it's debatable on the play, heck I even keep some number of street wraiths in if i'm on the play but being on the draw against burn is definitely a defensive game, and that is what shriekmaw can do for us. It doesn't have to hit the Eidolon (though it is a great feeling), it can hit any of their opening creatures to give us breathing room and not force a subpar living end.
What would you remove than if you had to board for Burn? I guess Beast Within is an option and Street Wraith.
On the assumption that i'm expecting a significant amount of burn but not enough to make me not want to play living end (like a large GP), this would be a list i'd run based on my current list plus SB modifications to account for burn.
On the play it would look something like this
-1 beast within
-1 faerie macabre
-1 fulminator mage
-2 street wraith
+3 gnaw to the bone
+2 shriekmaw
On the draw it would look more like this
-4 street wriath
-1 faerie macabre
+ the same as above
I'd probably run one more SSG too in the MB but that's besides the point. Though as of late, i've been going to a series of small-mediumish size tournaament where I simply don't run any lifegain period, my line of thinking is just dodge burn and assume punt if I don't because it's still not a very favorable matchup even with lifegain because they have good ways to prevent it. I actually plan to do this at the next large modern event I go to just to see what it's like.
I feel that even if Burn is a very bad matchup, we have to dedicate sideboard slots for it. I mean, not 8 cards, but even 4 Brindle Boar or Gnaw to the Bone is a must have for me. We go through so much cards in our deck, I think it's fair to assume that we can reliably hit one during our first 3 turns. I'm like 1-3-1 against Burn and the only win and draw were due to lifegain.
Hardcasting from scratch? As in they surgical effect the LE out of your deck before you can even fire off the first one? I'm assuming that's what you meant because when decks are over SBing to prep this effect, that's a good sign to switch decks. That's different than hardcasting on top of a board state already set up with a Living End, and In my experience as a living end one trick, there weren't that many scenarios where I was clamoring for a specific creature so much as just something to add to the board state.
Land cyclers are meant for the early game, not the late game. They grab lands when we need them and most lists aren't running more than 20 so its not unheard of to not hit that 3rd land on schedule or have the right colors. And as a reminder, they can grab shocks, it doesn't require the land to be basic but part of the appeal in those landcyclers is that there is the option to grab a basic in the face of blood moon. Though even as a late game, a 4/5 reach walls a lot of threats, unless your meta is packed with gurmag anglers and primeval titans, the body of pale recluse is very solid on top of the early game impact it provides.
I'm not arguing this card over jungle weaver, I think this card is better than jungle weaver. I just think two mana non-landcyclers have no place in living end right now given the speed of this format and the answers available.
So yes, a wrath would kill everything. But a lone terminate or path would not be able to deal with two one mana cyclers, it's a matter of tempo and efficiency and that's what modern is all about right now.
That said, while I'm looking forward to any new tools the next set might give us, I almost don't want the deck to improve too much. One of the biggest advantages to Living End is how much it has managed to fly under the radar, and while everyone is packing *some* type of graveyard hate these days, no one is really gunning for Living End, and the last thing I want is for it to have a huge target on its head, since post-board hate is almost always better than our post-board answers to them. If we just get something to replace the two mana cyclers, or maybe something to replace either Architects Of Will or Deadshot Minotaur, I'll be happy.
We run three copies, so odds are better than average that you'll occasionally open up with one of them, but it's not an auto-mull. If you open with Living End and a couple of cyclers (and a couple of lands of course), I would almost always keep that, since you have a couple of ways to cycle through your deck on top of your natural draws so as to find more cyclers (and eventually go off). But if you open with something like Living End, Beast Within, Fulminator Mage, Faerie Macabre, then just throw it back, because you need to fill the yard up enough so that you can dump out by turn three through five a board that's wide enough to win. The only time I keep a cycle light hand is if I'm on the play and I have something like Fulminator Mage + Simian Spirit Guide, as a turn two Mage can be just devastating to nearly anyone.
How many lifegain spells would you recommend I use? I can't post my list right now, but I'm currently using 1x Pulse of Murasa main, 2 Spike Feeder, 1 Gnaw to the Bone, 2 Shriekmaw side. Should I be running more? Is Bow of Nylea the answer?
You value knowledge, logic, and deceit. You love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At your best, you are brilliant and progressive. At your worst, you are treacherous and cold. Your symbol is a water droplet. Your enemies are green and red.
Second thing, Im also hoping for more cycling creatures, preferably 1 mana. And seeing that we're giving cycling bonus abilities now, in my magical christmas land, I wish for a card that says this: "when you cycle this, you may counter target instant (or sorcery) spell". What do you say? Would that make LE Tier 1 deck?
You value knowledge, logic, and deceit. You love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At your best, you are brilliant and progressive. At your worst, you are treacherous and cold. Your symbol is a water droplet. Your enemies are green and red.
That's absolutely the best thing I have seen in months. I was nearly giving up on Living End and wanted to go on with something else, but Archfiend has rekindled my inner brewer.
I really hope some of the cycler will be appealing to Living End as I could use some fresh cards in the deck.
I lol'd.
I kept saying that the one cycler I wish was legal in Modern was Primoc Escapee, which I would happily play in LE - but now I don't even need to. Archfiend of Ifnir just blows it out of the water.
My hope though is for other things from this set that promotes cycling
1 - Alternate wincons we can use that trigger of cycling and such
2 - Effect on cycle cards, both from cycling and because of it
3 - Better 2 mana options (already got that)
4 - A legendary land that taps for 2 mana that can only be used for cycling
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
More Astral Slide type effects would be nice. "Whenever a player cycles a card..." would be a fun effect to see once or twice in this set. Especially if it helps the Living End game plan.
WU Bruna UW | R Kiki-Jiki R | RB New Chainer BR
Legacy - Burn | Pauper - Reanimator | Aristocrats | Burn
@votechainer2016
why? minotaur is more greek than egypt for me (and god are probably monocolor, based on innovation vindicate and maelstrom pulse, so i dont think we will see multicolor hybrid mana)
i hope/expect to see a lot of vainilla 2 cc cycle (2 cc=draw is a thing with development and clues), and with cycling more than 2 and some additional effect.
more 1 cc could really push this deck
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
the new demon is fine but i can see it quickly relegated to sideboard replacing night of soul's betrayal if you still have any in your sideboard
its still early on the spoiler season, lets hope we got something new fro this set.
They've already spoiled a few cards with the Minotaur creature subtype, you can see them here: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/so-much-amonkhet-news-2017-03-27
They look more like rams than bulls, but I think they just didn't want to add another subtype, and minotaur is close enough to what they're doing.
The hybrid thing is different - I certainly don't have anything to back that up, but that's why I said it was just speculation.
WU Bruna UW | R Kiki-Jiki R | RB New Chainer BR
Legacy - Burn | Pauper - Reanimator | Aristocrats | Burn
@votechainer2016
Match 1 : BW Tokens.
Result: 2-0.
Notes: easy matchup I think, but don't underestimate the speed of this deck. Won game 1 on the draw with a turn 4 Violent Outburst and had 2 Street Wraith, 2 Deadshot Minautor and 1 Pale Recluse. Won game 2 on the play on turn 5, cascading because things were getting out of hands. My life total was at 4.
Match 2 : UWR Control.
Result: 2-1.
Notes: I have a hard time with control decks. I think it's me that doesn't know how to deal with them optimally. After losing game 1, the Fulminator Mages were pretty handy and I boarded in also my 2 Avalanche Riders as well as my 2 Ricochet Trap. It was good to blow up some lands, especially the Celestial Colonnade. Game 2 and 3 were long.
Match 3 : Scapeshift.
Result: 2-1.
Notes: pretty much the same thing as in the other matchup. Land destruction and filling up the 'yard on a faster clock.
Match 4 : Junk Company.
Result: 2-0.
Notes: that was the matchup I was waiting for! Such a blast to play against this deck: it feels like the old days, but much easier to get around that Pod. They rely so much on creatures that I had to cascade by turn 4 each game, but after that, it was in the pocket. It's a very favorable matchup.
Overall, I'm getting more comfortable playing the deck and it gets easier each time pulling out the wins.
4 Architects of Will
4 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Fulminator Mage
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Street Wraith
3 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Jungle Weaver
1 Pale Recluse
Spells (15)
4 Beast Within
4 Demonic Dread
4 Violent Outburst
3 Living End
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blooming Marsh
2 Copperline Gorge
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Blood Crypt
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Watery Grave
4 Brindle Boar
3 Ricochet Trap
2 Avalanche Riders
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Shriekmaw
Also, I made a small sideboard guide :
Against Burn:
- IN : 4 Brindle Boar.
- OUT : 4 Street Wraith.
Against Affinity:
- IN : 3 Ingot Chewer and 1 Jund Charm (maybe a couple of Brindle Boar).
- OUT : 4 Street Wraith.
Against Grixis Delver:
- IN : 3 Ricochet Trap, 2 Shriekmaw and 1 Jund Charm
- OUT : 2 Street Wraith, 2 Architect of Will and 2 Simian Spirit Guide (or 3 Street Wraith and 3 Architect of Will).
Against Goryo's Vengeance:
- IN : 2 Faerie Macabre.
- OUT : 2 Street Wraith.
Against Soul Sisters:
- IN : 2 Shriekmaw and 1 Jund Charm.
- OUT : 3 Simian Spirit Guide.
Against Amulet Titan:
- IN : 3 Ingot Chewer.
- OUT : 2 Demonic Dread and 1 Jungle Weaver.
Against Grixis Control:
- IN : 3 Ricochet Trap.
- OUT : 2 Best Within and 1 Simian Spirit Guide.
Against Merfolk:
- IN : 2 Faerie Macabre and 2 Shriekmaw.
- OUT : 3 Simian Spirit Guide and 1 Jungle Weaver (or a 2/2 split between the two of them).
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
This caught my eye, no shriekmaw? We need to conserve as much life as possible and blunting the initial attacks on turn 2 goes a long way and a absolute windmill slam on the eidolon for sure.
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
What would you remove than if you had to board for Burn? I guess Beast Within is an option and Street Wraith.
4 Street Wraith
4 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Fulminator Mage
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Architects of Will
2 Pale Recluse
1 Shriekmaw
1 Faerie Macabre
4 Beast Within
3 Demonic Dread
3 Living End
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Godless Shrine
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Shriekmaw
3 Ricochet Trap
2 Slaughter Games
3 Gnaw to the Bone
On the play it would look something like this
-1 beast within
-1 faerie macabre
-1 fulminator mage
-2 street wraith
+3 gnaw to the bone
+2 shriekmaw
On the draw it would look more like this
-4 street wriath
-1 faerie macabre
+ the same as above
I'd probably run one more SSG too in the MB but that's besides the point. Though as of late, i've been going to a series of small-mediumish size tournaament where I simply don't run any lifegain period, my line of thinking is just dodge burn and assume punt if I don't because it's still not a very favorable matchup even with lifegain because they have good ways to prevent it. I actually plan to do this at the next large modern event I go to just to see what it's like.
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R