Has anyone tested or thought about Soul Spike. I know it is a really bad card advantage, but taking out a Deceiver Exarch or gaining 4 life out of nowhere could be very nice.
Its a wierd card to run, 90% of the black cards we run serve a vital role.
I can't justify pitching fulminator mage monstrous carabid street wraith demonic dread
to power soul spike. you can't afford to hold those cards in hand to pay the alternative casting cost, they are going to the graveyard to build up for LE. If you draw soul spike mid game you might have already cycled away other black cards and be left for several turns with a brick in hand while your waiting for 2/1 black cards so you can play it. I don't see it being worth the investment. if you use it to kill deceiver exarch for free your throwing away too much long term value for a silver bullet. leave that sort of thing to simian spirit guide powering dismember.
i'd rather run fury of the horde if we were to run this sort of spell at all. we have far more red cards in the deck than black cards. An extra attack step could be killer. though on the other hand the deck typically reaches 5 mana so Savage Beating could do just as much horror as fury of the horde.
living twin update: I put magic away for past week or so, don't have much to report. I got PPTQ's coming up in April I'll put my money "where the fun has been" and report back then on Living Twin. (if i don't go to local tourny before hand.)
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So yea, its pretty similar to Wyvern's living end list. I think i got lucky in the tournament, as no was prepared for living end, and thus didnt have any graveyard hate in their 75.
The decks that were played in the tournmanet was pretty diverse, alot of teir 2 decks, and only 4 playing teir 1(3 twin players, 1 burn.)
Now to the individual games
Big Zoo 0-2
Got my ass kicked in match, as in both game 1 and 2, he got out wild nacatl turn one, followed by scavenging ooze. Then followed it up with 4/5tarmogoyf, and 8/8knight of the reliquary
Couldn't find any of my sideboarded anger or jund charms :P.
MVP was Fullimator its suprising how much land destruction can do to a aggro deck
Scapeshift 2-1
Game 1: The scapeshift player didnt even know what my deck was XD, so i was freely able to cycle. However he realised too late what my deck was and lost to a Violent outburst at his end step
Sideboarded 3xRicochet Trap for 2xJungle Weaver and 1xPale Recluse
Game 2: Now knowing what i was playing, he played pretty conservative playing Sakura-Tribe Elder and fetching basics to avoid getting hit by Fulminator Mage. he stalled until he got leathal with Scapeshift
Sideboard: no changes
Game 3: this was an interesting game, as my opening hand had double Fulminators. Luckly for me my opponent was forced to find a fetch his shock lands which i happly destroyed with fulmninators. Overall i kept my opponent down to 2 basic islands for the entire game
MVP were fullimators and Avalanche Riders, keeping my opponent of double/triple blue for a while
Infect 2-1
Holy Hell this matchup is super tense
Game 1: my opponent kills me turn 2 with his infect combo. Nothing much to say
Sideboard: 1x Anger of the Gods and 1x Jund Charm. Took out 2xJungle Weaver
Game 2 and 3: I keep a 2 land hand + 1 SSG for both games, allowing me to wrath on turn 2/3, after i've done taht i pretty much won the games, as my opponent pumped their dudes.
MVP wwas SSG, this card will either win you the game or lose you the game.
Overall i think i did pretty well, going 3-1 in my first tournmanet, this was probably due to no one expecting living end to pop up. However I'm not sure what too fill out my sideboard with, as I did see UR gyros breach, uwr control, burn, twin,RUG control as well. Can any of you guys give me advice for sideboard?
Also how do you deal with Zoo/aggro, as i find myself too low as they have a alot of pressure out early, and finsh me off with bolts.
Lastly i want to try and put one more Beast Within, but im not too sure on what to replace it with, as i think SSG as a necessity, as my meta is pretty combo oriented.
Went 2-1-1 with twinning end. Beat junk & jund. Drew vs UW tron (grindiest mu I've ever played). Lastly 1-2 vs grixis control playing 3 spellskites in his 75, sigh. (supposedly a deck that did real well at SCG's last modern IQ).
Edit: Feeling better after looking the SCG Richmond's top 8. UW tron & grixis control both top4'd. Richochet trapping my opponents (grixis) leak when going for the twin kill was thrilling but unfortunately he had his singleton dismember from the board.
Hi, I've recently taken up Living End, and so far I've been mostly messing around with a kiki-exarch variant. I could use some help tweaking the numbers, and in particular sorting the landbase out, as right now it's mostly a couple of what I got right now.
So far, Kiki has been great. Goes down easy to removal of course, but can just bring him back, and is very nasty even without exarch; he's done good work for me with fulminator and shriekmaw. Thirst for knowledge has also been handy, the digging is welcome, as is a way to "cycle" living ends and extra lands stuck in my hand, as well as instant-speed discarding exarch and kiki when opponent taps out.
Any ideas on how to tweak it a bit? Maybe a way to fit 4th kiki back in, and improve land base? Could use a hand with this one, as I'd like to avoid having mismatched mana colour without being too greedy.
See, if I were going with twin I'd use zealous conscripts instead of the blue dudes. Then my mana is the same, I could still run blood moon, and it still has the twin option ready to go.
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Legacy RB Goblins
Interesting, I didn't know that creature, but I think overall it brings less utility, as it doesn't let you tap an opponent's blue mana on end of their turn to clear way for a cascade spell for example. Still, could work.
Is there a very good reason not to run Bloodstained Mire? I'm just trying to save money and it's going to be some combination of 4-6 fetchlands. I mean it's on color and can still fetch any color you need.
Hi, I've recently taken up Living End, and so far I've been mostly messing around with a kiki-exarch variant. I could use some help tweaking the numbers, and in particular sorting the landbase out, as right now it's mostly a couple of what I got right now.
~snip!~
So far, Kiki has been great. Goes down easy to removal of course, but can just bring him back, and is very nasty even without exarch; he's done good work for me with fulminator and shriekmaw. Thirst for knowledge has also been handy, the digging is welcome, as is a way to "cycle" living ends and extra lands stuck in my hand, as well as instant-speed discarding exarch and kiki when opponent taps out.
Any ideas on how to tweak it a bit? Maybe a way to fit 4th kiki back in, and improve land base? Could use a hand with this one, as I'd like to avoid having mismatched mana colour without being too greedy.
Do yourself a favor and cut the Thirst for Knowledge. I feel like you're being a little too greedy there. If it's extra draw power you're after, try adding Architects of Will instead.
Vat is like a thousand turns too slow, it steals things from the graveyard (and therefore, from a profitable LE), and gives the opponent a target for things like Abrupt Decay, Repeal, etc., which are otherwise ineffective or outright dead against us. Can't say I'm a fan.
Is there a very good reason not to run Bloodstained Mire? I'm just trying to save money and it's going to be some combination of 4-6 fetchlands. I mean it's on color and can still fetch any color you need.
Dryad Arbor. It's been discussed. If you run the Arbor, you want Verdant Catacombs. If you don't, then it doesn't matter what fetchlands you run - Bloodstained Mire would be fine in that instance.
Is there a very good reason not to run Bloodstained Mire? I'm just trying to save money and it's going to be some combination of 4-6 fetchlands. I mean it's on color and can still fetch any color you need.
seconding what wyvernslayer said, but if you've already maxed catacombs, mire isn't horrible to have as fetches 5-6
I ran AoW as a singleton a good while back (GP Minneapolis if you want to look up a time frame) and was a big proponent. The Meta was undoubtedly different. Take this with a grain of salt.
* Yes, it's not bolt-proof. That matters against a few decks, but honestly having a creature or two that die to bolt isn't that bad. Your creatures already die to all the non-red removal. Their removal is still dead in the early game and too little too late usually after a cascade. I personally strongly believe that Bolt-Proof is an overstated concern. I want my creatures to be big so that the opponent dies in fewer swings, not because that protects them from bolt. I dislike VERY low toughness creatures (5/1 or something) not because of bolt, but because things like Snapcaster Mage are now relevant blockers. I want my average opponent to have literally zero relevant blockers. (Note: I played before Siege Rhino... I take it your opponent having no creatures as big as Living End is a thing of the past.)
* All-In isn't a binary thing. AoW pushes you toward a faster combo, but it's not like it forces you to remove all of your other non-combo pieces. You can still decide where you are on the spectrum. I ran a blood moon version, which made me up the number of landcyclers a bit. I was mostly running AoW because I had more two-mana cyclers and I wanted another one-mana cycler to try and improve my average opening hand.
* The ETB effect is actually fairly relevant. If you believe that they have nothing that can interact with a resolved LE, AoW often (usually ONE of the top three cards are relevant) gives you two attack steps. That's often enough to win the game. Even if you're unlucky and they have three relevant spells, you have more information about the opponents future plans than they do.
Four AoW seems like a LOT. THAT deck is super all-in with only four non-combo spells in the main deck. I can't say if that's good or bad, I've fallen out of modern and meta-calls are my super weak point right now.
But AoW is a card that I was quite happy with as a one-of and I strongly believe should be in the Living End players' toolbox. It can do a lot more things than just make you all-in. For instance, I often wanted to bring in more than one copy against control (I only had the one, so I couldn't). Why? Push their wraths to the bottom. I love AoW against any deck that has in their deck a one-card answer to a resolved LE.
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Beat my buddies mardu tokens tonight with twinning end. G1's were simple, the rest of the matches became very Grindy. Rakdos charm, burn and lingering souls help a bit but I managed to pull through. I'm not a fan of faerie macabre at the moment. I miss avalanche riders.
after doing some testing with the regular deck against burn, I'm leaning towards kor firewalker being my prefered means to handling the match up. however for lack of creatures since I'm still cycling them away to draw into what I need or get more lands, I added 1 Pharika, God of Affliction and 1 unburial rites just compensate for my game plan of benching living end. by the time I hit 5 mana for hard casting stuff I've accumulated on average 5 or more creatures in the graveyard which would otherwise just sit there for the rest of the game. so either choice still gives you value out of those early cycled creatures. this doesn't just pertain to the Burn match up, two kor firewalkers is usually enough to seal the match up, but if your using other 2cc silver bullets to replace living end and cascade into, then I see Pharika and unburial rites as useful means to keep some reanimator action going while living end is benched for the game.
Another combo I noticed thats worthy of mention for the deck, but I'm not completely sold on it cause of , is some lists are already running spike feeder, going into white for Archangel of Thune gives the deck another powerful combo. Its not quite instant win like the splinter twin splash but it adds an aspect to the deck its never had before, infinite life and infinite sized creatures. combo pieces being creatures living end obviously reanimates the whole combo. I hate stretching the mana base for or , but I don't see it as something that can't be done. I don't think that mana base would play well with blood moon which in the current meta I find to be very necessary.
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OK so over the past little while I made my first attempt at a Living End deck. Wanted some input from you guys, maybe you had some insight to share. Its fairly standard.
I've debated about Finks vs Brindleboar, and I feel Finks gets you more value. Ultimately, you're gaining the same amount of life, which is 4. Brindleboar hits the field and gets sacrificed for the life. Finks can block or attack, which is a big plus. Not to mention it comes back with Persist, which helps against removal.
I didn't put in any Jungle Weavers because I feel that with the other big creatures in this deck, he's kind of outclassed. Recluse has reach already, and can fetch forests and plains. Minotaur, Carabid and Wraith all cycle already. It feels like Weaver doesn't provide anything we don't already have. I'd rather put in Spirit Guides to increase tempo and get LE out a turn earlier or Finks to have a 3-drop to stave off some attacks/do some damage that also gains me life.
Jund Charm is kind of a question mark. It seems multipurpose, but I'm wondering if I should just slot in something more specific.
So the thing about finks is that, while it makes so much sense in a fair deck, doesn't really make sense in living end. Every matchup you want it against--the linear, aggressive, burn and zoo matchups--are the kind where you can cascade without interference. Against these, no one will waste a precious burn spell on your finks: your own cascade will kill it. This means you gain almost always just 4 (they need to kill it twice before it comes back from living end, so even if they do once, the finks then dies and doesn't come back and only gets you 4) from finks while if you cascade with boar or spike feeder, you get 8.
Also, This is not your granddaddy's modern. With tasigur and rhino, a 4/4 is no longer definitely the biggest threat. 5/6 is much much better, keep this in mind on big weaves
Some helpful points, gruul. What about maybe a combination of Finks and Boar? Both are a 3 drop (obviously they need to be, or LE won't work). Both gain life. While Boar has the advantage of gaining you more life overall, Finks seems to be more optimal for attacking and blocking. The only other 3 drops we have are SSG (who we don't want to play) and Fulminator Mage (who is going to be sac'd anyway). Its going to take a few turns to get some fatties into the GY. Minotaur, Carabid and Wraith can work off of one mana (accelerated by SSG), but Recluse, Twisted Abom and Weaver work off of 2. In other words, we have to buy time until we can a) Cascade and b) at a time when its worth Cascading. A 3 drop blocker sounds like it'd be useful for staving off attacks, especially if there's a large Goyf or two aching to smash, and can help us survive until we can fire off LE. At least, in theory it sounds nice.
Also, I'm worried I'm running too much removal. With my sideboard, I have 4 Beast Within, 2 Shriekmaw and 2 Dismember. Beast takes out all permanents, but gives them a 3/3. Shriekmaw can only take out creatures that aren't black or artifacts, but costs 1 less and can be brought back with LE. Dismember can potentially only cost 1 mana, but only hits creatures, may not necessarily kill them (if they're big enough) and can cost 4 life. All have their pros and cons, but 4 MD and 4 in the SB feels like a lot. I can maybe shave off 1 Beast and go down to 7, but am I better off taking out one of the others instead, since Beast has more versatility? Should I just keep 8? If I do take out a Beast, what do I replace it with?
+1 Grip, -1 Avalanche Riders.
Its a wierd card to run, 90% of the black cards we run serve a vital role.
I can't justify pitching
fulminator mage
monstrous carabid
street wraith
demonic dread
to power soul spike. you can't afford to hold those cards in hand to pay the alternative casting cost, they are going to the graveyard to build up for LE. If you draw soul spike mid game you might have already cycled away other black cards and be left for several turns with a brick in hand while your waiting for 2/1 black cards so you can play it. I don't see it being worth the investment. if you use it to kill deceiver exarch for free your throwing away too much long term value for a silver bullet. leave that sort of thing to simian spirit guide powering dismember.
i'd rather run fury of the horde if we were to run this sort of spell at all. we have far more red cards in the deck than black cards. An extra attack step could be killer. though on the other hand the deck typically reaches 5 mana so Savage Beating could do just as much horror as fury of the horde.
living twin update: I put magic away for past week or so, don't have much to report. I got PPTQ's coming up in April I'll put my money "where the fun has been" and report back then on Living Twin. (if i don't go to local tourny before hand.)
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1x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Copplerline Gorge
1x Stomping Ground
1x Overgrown Tomb
3x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Temple Garden
2x Forest(played a basic forest as i couldnt find Dryad Arbour)
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
1x Kessing Wolf run
Non-Creature spells
3x Demonic Dread
4x Violent Outburst
3x Living End
1x Dismember
2x Beast Within
1x Faerie Macabre
4x Fulminator Mage
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Avalanche Riders
1x Shriekmaw
4x Deadshot Minotaur
4x Monstrous Carabid
4x Street Wraith
2x Pale Recluse
2x Jungle Weaver
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Bow of Nylea
1x Jund Charm
1x Anger of the Gods
3x Ricochet Trap
7x ??? (i havent finished my sideboard)
So yea, its pretty similar to Wyvern's living end list. I think i got lucky in the tournament, as no was prepared for living end, and thus didnt have any graveyard hate in their 75.
The decks that were played in the tournmanet was pretty diverse, alot of teir 2 decks, and only 4 playing teir 1(3 twin players, 1 burn.)
Now to the individual games
Got my ass kicked in match, as in both game 1 and 2, he got out wild nacatl turn one, followed by scavenging ooze. Then followed it up with 4/5tarmogoyf, and 8/8knight of the reliquary
Couldn't find any of my sideboarded anger or jund charms :P.
MVP was Fullimator its suprising how much land destruction can do to a aggro deck
Game 1: The scapeshift player didnt even know what my deck was XD, so i was freely able to cycle. However he realised too late what my deck was and lost to a Violent outburst at his end step
Sideboarded 3xRicochet Trap for 2xJungle Weaver and 1xPale Recluse
Game 2: Now knowing what i was playing, he played pretty conservative playing Sakura-Tribe Elder and fetching basics to avoid getting hit by Fulminator Mage. he stalled until he got leathal with Scapeshift
Sideboard: no changes
Game 3: this was an interesting game, as my opening hand had double Fulminators. Luckly for me my opponent was forced to find a fetch his shock lands which i happly destroyed with fulmninators. Overall i kept my opponent down to 2 basic islands for the entire game
MVP were fullimators and Avalanche Riders, keeping my opponent of double/triple blue for a while
This matchup was the easiest matchup of the night
Game1 : He milled a decent amount of cards thorugh, Hedron crab, Archive Trap and Glimpse of the Unthinkable. Tyring to get as much creature cards into my graveyard, i cycled a decent amount of creature cards, however i got greedy and got blown away by a maindeck Crypt Incursion.
Sideboarded 1x Bow of Nylea for 1x Jungle Weaver
Game 2 and 3: both games were pretty identical where i kept 2 land hands with atleast 1xSimian Spirit guide and 1x Violent Out burst. Both game both went normally, with him using cards like Hedron crab, Archive Trap and Glimpse of the Unthinkable to start milling my libary, but pretty much won by casting Simian Spirit Guide and violent outburst in response to his Surgical Extraction/Graveyard hate
MVP was SSG, as the sudden burst of mana catches people of guard
Holy Hell this matchup is super tense
Game 1: my opponent kills me turn 2 with his infect combo. Nothing much to say
Sideboard: 1x Anger of the Gods and 1x Jund Charm. Took out 2xJungle Weaver
Game 2 and 3: I keep a 2 land hand + 1 SSG for both games, allowing me to wrath on turn 2/3, after i've done taht i pretty much won the games, as my opponent pumped their dudes.
MVP wwas SSG, this card will either win you the game or lose you the game.
Overall i think i did pretty well, going 3-1 in my first tournmanet, this was probably due to no one expecting living end to pop up. However I'm not sure what too fill out my sideboard with, as I did see UR gyros breach, uwr control, burn, twin,RUG control as well. Can any of you guys give me advice for sideboard?
Also how do you deal with Zoo/aggro, as i find myself too low as they have a alot of pressure out early, and finsh me off with bolts.
Lastly i want to try and put one more Beast Within, but im not too sure on what to replace it with, as i think SSG as a necessity, as my meta is pretty combo oriented.
Edit: Feeling better after looking the SCG Richmond's top 8. UW tron & grixis control both top4'd. Richochet trapping my opponents (grixis) leak when going for the twin kill was thrilling but unfortunately he had his singleton dismember from the board.
4 Street Wraith
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Deadshot Minotaur
2 Pale Recluse
3 Living End
3 Demonic Dread
4 Violent Outburst
2 Shriekmaw
4 Fulminator Mage
Twin
4 Deceiver Exarch
3 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Breeding Pool
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Living End
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Ricochet Trap
3 Ingot Chewer
4 Brindle Boar
So far, Kiki has been great. Goes down easy to removal of course, but can just bring him back, and is very nasty even without exarch; he's done good work for me with fulminator and shriekmaw. Thirst for knowledge has also been handy, the digging is welcome, as is a way to "cycle" living ends and extra lands stuck in my hand, as well as instant-speed discarding exarch and kiki when opponent taps out.
Any ideas on how to tweak it a bit? Maybe a way to fit 4th kiki back in, and improve land base? Could use a hand with this one, as I'd like to avoid having mismatched mana colour without being too greedy.
UB Tezzerator
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Legacy
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Do yourself a favor and cut the Thirst for Knowledge. I feel like you're being a little too greedy there. If it's extra draw power you're after, try adding Architects of Will instead.
Vat is like a thousand turns too slow, it steals things from the graveyard (and therefore, from a profitable LE), and gives the opponent a target for things like Abrupt Decay, Repeal, etc., which are otherwise ineffective or outright dead against us. Can't say I'm a fan.
Dryad Arbor. It's been discussed. If you run the Arbor, you want Verdant Catacombs. If you don't, then it doesn't matter what fetchlands you run - Bloodstained Mire would be fine in that instance.
seconding what wyvernslayer said, but if you've already maxed catacombs, mire isn't horrible to have as fetches 5-6
* Yes, it's not bolt-proof. That matters against a few decks, but honestly having a creature or two that die to bolt isn't that bad. Your creatures already die to all the non-red removal. Their removal is still dead in the early game and too little too late usually after a cascade. I personally strongly believe that Bolt-Proof is an overstated concern. I want my creatures to be big so that the opponent dies in fewer swings, not because that protects them from bolt. I dislike VERY low toughness creatures (5/1 or something) not because of bolt, but because things like Snapcaster Mage are now relevant blockers. I want my average opponent to have literally zero relevant blockers. (Note: I played before Siege Rhino... I take it your opponent having no creatures as big as Living End is a thing of the past.)
* All-In isn't a binary thing. AoW pushes you toward a faster combo, but it's not like it forces you to remove all of your other non-combo pieces. You can still decide where you are on the spectrum. I ran a blood moon version, which made me up the number of landcyclers a bit. I was mostly running AoW because I had more two-mana cyclers and I wanted another one-mana cycler to try and improve my average opening hand.
* The ETB effect is actually fairly relevant. If you believe that they have nothing that can interact with a resolved LE, AoW often (usually ONE of the top three cards are relevant) gives you two attack steps. That's often enough to win the game. Even if you're unlucky and they have three relevant spells, you have more information about the opponents future plans than they do.
Four AoW seems like a LOT. THAT deck is super all-in with only four non-combo spells in the main deck. I can't say if that's good or bad, I've fallen out of modern and meta-calls are my super weak point right now.
But AoW is a card that I was quite happy with as a one-of and I strongly believe should be in the Living End players' toolbox. It can do a lot more things than just make you all-in. For instance, I often wanted to bring in more than one copy against control (I only had the one, so I couldn't). Why? Push their wraths to the bottom. I love AoW against any deck that has in their deck a one-card answer to a resolved LE.
Another combo I noticed thats worthy of mention for the deck, but I'm not completely sold on it cause of
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2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Blood Crypt
2x Stomping Ground
1x Godless Shrine
2x Blackcleave Cliffs
2x Copperline Gorge
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Mountain
4x Fulminator Mage
4x Pale Recluse
1x Twisted Abomination
4x Deadshot Minotaur
4x Monstrous Carabid
4x Street Wraith
3x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Kitchen Finks
4x Violent Outburst
3x Demonic Dread
4x Beast Within
3x Ingot Chewer
3x Ricochet Trap
2x Dismember
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Shriekmaw
1x Gnaw to the Bone
I've debated about Finks vs Brindleboar, and I feel Finks gets you more value. Ultimately, you're gaining the same amount of life, which is 4. Brindleboar hits the field and gets sacrificed for the life. Finks can block or attack, which is a big plus. Not to mention it comes back with Persist, which helps against removal.
I didn't put in any Jungle Weavers because I feel that with the other big creatures in this deck, he's kind of outclassed. Recluse has reach already, and can fetch forests and plains. Minotaur, Carabid and Wraith all cycle already. It feels like Weaver doesn't provide anything we don't already have. I'd rather put in Spirit Guides to increase tempo and get LE out a turn earlier or Finks to have a 3-drop to stave off some attacks/do some damage that also gains me life.
Jund Charm is kind of a question mark. It seems multipurpose, but I'm wondering if I should just slot in something more specific.
Any positive criticism is welcome.
Also, This is not your granddaddy's modern. With tasigur and rhino, a 4/4 is no longer definitely the biggest threat. 5/6 is much much better, keep this in mind on big weaves
Also, I'm worried I'm running too much removal. With my sideboard, I have 4 Beast Within, 2 Shriekmaw and 2 Dismember. Beast takes out all permanents, but gives them a 3/3. Shriekmaw can only take out creatures that aren't black or artifacts, but costs 1 less and can be brought back with LE. Dismember can potentially only cost 1 mana, but only hits creatures, may not necessarily kill them (if they're big enough) and can cost 4 life. All have their pros and cons, but 4 MD and 4 in the SB feels like a lot. I can maybe shave off 1 Beast and go down to 7, but am I better off taking out one of the others instead, since Beast has more versatility? Should I just keep 8? If I do take out a Beast, what do I replace it with?