Mires can't grab the Arbor, you're better off replacing Verdant's with Wooded's if you can't afford them. Actually the're more and more lists using Wooded's these days...its either a price thing...or Wooded's work just as effective as Verdant's...with minimal drawbacks.
Are Bloodstained Mires ok instead of Verdant? Seems like they can searh for me every single shockland in Living End deck. Can't see any reasons to buy Verdants.
Thoughts?
My guess it's because you can cycle both Minotaur and Carabid with Red. So, you can fetch a basic mountain without shocking yourself, which is part of the reason why Burn is such a horrible matchup. Also, Dryad Arbor.
No buddy is running a basic mountain, it simply goes for the Arbor and snags the green/shocks (but some would say you need the Swamp at "will" hence the Catacombs). The're good stances for the catacombs, but I think my point is pros are using Woodeds without no problems in some templates now (it can be a budget thing as I stated, or it can be simply because the Wooded's perform just smooth as the Catacombs).
S.M.
I'm running a basic mountain and 0 dryad arbors. You're a caveman.
Mires can't grab the Arbor, you're better off replacing Verdant's with Wooded's if you can't afford them. Actually the're more and more lists using Wooded's these days...its either a price thing...or Wooded's work just as effective as Verdant's...with minimal drawbacks.
Are Bloodstained Mires ok instead of Verdant? Seems like they can searh for me every single shockland in Living End deck. Can't see any reasons to buy Verdants.
Thoughts?
My guess it's because you can cycle both Minotaur and Carabid with Red. So, you can fetch a basic mountain without shocking yourself, which is part of the reason why Burn is such a horrible matchup. Also, Dryad Arbor.
No buddy is running a basic mountain, it simply goes for the Arbor and snags the green/shocks (but some would say you need the Swamp at "will" hence the Catacombs). The're good stances for the catacombs, but I think my point is pros are using Woodeds without no problems in some templates now (it can be a budget thing as I stated, or it can be simply because the Wooded's perform just smooth as the Catacombs).
S.M.
I'm running a basic mountain and 0 dryad arbors. You're a caveman.
Just checked 70 of the most recent top place Living End Decks, no Mountain, so if that makes me a caveman because I tend to play and test on the competitive level (the council tells no lies, I only know how to address comments with research)...then I guess I'm a caveman (21 P.M.'s to address this comment, I guess I know a ton of cavemen that feel the same way with regards to the competitive scene).
And Slayer if those are your reasons just to run the Wooded's over the Verdants (mountain comment) then I simply don't know how to address your post at me (so I won't worry "friend"), again I tend to go off online reports and top place or top 8 Finishes, again no mountain...and still some successful with use of the Wooded's (I did note the're some splits of late 2/2).
Hydro I'm on page with Kessing, though I can split the difference with the Vault (links), you're right its a personal choice.
S.M.
p.s.
I wonder how many actually read the primers of archetypes before slamming down opinion posts (I think I better go read a few more myself to find out this whole mountain thing, 10+ hours of video, 4 online complete primers...man it's bewildering what I read sometimes from "randoms".
The basic mountain does prove its merit. That oddball chance when you need to preserve your life total is relevant. I play 4 verdants and 2 r/x fetches, so maybe playing the basic mountain is wrong, but I also need to hit the double red for splinter twin.
The basic mountain does prove its merit. That oddball chance when you need to preserve your life total is relevant. I play 4 verdants and 2 r/x fetches, so maybe playing the basic mountain is wrong, but I also need to hit the double red for splinter twin.
Talking about the mashed up version of Splinter Twin/ Living End and the mana base for the traditional Living End deck are two completely different things. Really wish people would better clarify what they are speaking about in their original posts/comments or perhaps Twinning End could get its own sub forum?
As far as life total preservation goes, anything you can cycle off of Red mana can be cycled off either Black or Green also, so just run the Verdant Catacombs as you stated you do and don't bother with a basic mountain?
Fetching from a verdant doesn't let you cycle both carabid and deadshot minotaur without shocking yourself. I wouldn't go as far to say twinning ends mana base is completely different. Two more fetches and two U/x shock lands that we can also use to cycle, cast stuff, etc. Mind you this is what i use.
Lol now everyone is arguing about the validity of running a mountain. Amazing I noticed before playing a single game or finishing the deck.
Ok so second question, why do we run 3 Living Ends? It seems like we never want to draw this card and effectively have 7-8 copies through cascade. Is it common to cascade 3 times in a game?
I can't really afford GRove of the Burnwillows so could somebody like setup a manabase for me that would be the next best thing. The deck is very traditional, beast within, pale recluse, jungle weaver, SSG. I have access to shocklands, Wooded Foothills, can buy copperline gorge and the R/B version. Was thinking kessig over vault.
Ok so second question, why do we run 3 Living Ends? It seems like we never want to draw this card and effectively have 7-8 copies through cascade. Is it common to cascade 3 times in a game?
Yes, there are plenty of times where you just wanna LE to clear the board against aggro decks, or a creature you cant kill/combo piece. 3 is the correct number.
Well, yes actually, there are games where you'll cascade three times. If we only ran one, how silly would we look if we drew it on our second turn? Or when it gets countered, or when they wipe the board? Hell, sometimes you'll cascade and they'll end up with a pretty okay board, so even though you've got creatures on the board the best thing to do in the moment is to go for another Living End. We draw a lot cause of cycling, so sometimes you'll draw two in a game. Suspending them is kind of awful, though occasionally it's the right thing to do (luring a counterspell so you can cascade when they tap out for the counter).
Edit: Violent Outburst in response to a Splinter Twin combo is one of our outs and it might not return as many creatures as you want, so you'll definitely want to cascade again.
Anyway, your list is pretty standard. Look at the stock mana bases and you won't find that you have to deviate very much. Budget may restrict you to Wooded Foothills instead of Verdant Catacombs, but despite the conversation you're seeing right now it really doesn't matter that much, certainly less than your unfortunate half playset of Fulminators.
URGImperial AnimarGRU BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB WURNarset NostalgicRUW UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU UBlue BraidsU GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
WUHanna, Pillowfort's NavigatorUW WBRAleshacratsBRW UBRGrixis Pew PewRBU URGYasova the ThreateningGRU BGGlissa the ArticiferGB WUSygg MerfolkUW RSquee, Value NabobR
Are Bloodstained Mires ok instead of Verdant? Seems like they can searh for me every single shockland in Living End deck. Can't see any reasons to buy Verdants.
Thoughts?
They can search for all your shocks, but Verdant can search out my only two basic lands. Forest and a Swamp. That is where Mire is lacking.
My list plays a basic mountain, guess I'm nobody. Then again, I don't like Arbor at all, so yeah
Just posting to say that a friend of mine had me build the Twinning End version for him yesterday and he played it at our LGS. He told me it performed okay, but fetching is even harder than it is already (since you have to get a blue source as well, while still being able to cast Fulminator and Cycle stuff Oo ) and some of the hands just made him want to puke under the table, since a hand with more of either combo could have been way more effective than a hand with some of both.
I'm going to play a PPTQ on Sunday and have not decided yet whether to play the trusty old Living End or the new kid on (my collection's) block, Burn with Atarka's Command. If I end up playing LE and doing well (that are some if's) I will post my results here
If you do play the living end deck, I'd appreciate it if doing well is a criteria for whether it should be posted. It's important to know about both failures and successes while refining a deck (in no way meant to imply you owe us a tournament report, just that having a good tournament is not a litmus test for whether it's worth reporting)
RE: 3 living ends.
Surprisingly, it is very common to cascade twice. Decks with permission frequently are able to counter the first living end (which hopefully uou fire off on their end step, so you can untap and do it again) and every once in a while a control mage brings in wrath of god and you need to rebuild your board with another end. If you have 2, then you could draw one and suddenly not have these options, and if you play one you never have these options, and if you play 4 you draw them more often. In most matchups, they're dead cards and you don't want to draw them.
I have been trying to find another solution to getting 3 LEs stuck in my hand. I do run 4 LE main deck now, but I keep one in the sideboard for the control match up where they may counter stuff. The issue is with these games which tend to go long is that you can virtually certain that at some point you will draw one. Playing with the idea right now that I may side in corpsewheft against non combo control match ups instead because that is one you don't mind if you draw and hits on different vectors. You really only need 1-2 6/6 bodies on the table to win some match ups.
There does not seem to a viable card in all of modern that let's you put a card from your hand back into your deck either. Would be nice to see a brainstorm effect for 3 or more mana for this list, and I don't think that is actually asking a lot.
Yeah, getting three stuck in hand is terrible, and there is no way I know of to fix that issue. But, I use a 1 of Bow of Nylea to be able to cascade into LE if I drew two and only have one in my graveyard. not much chance to fix three stuck in hand though.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks: B/W Tokens, Living End, R/W Lockdown (a.k.a. PillowFort)
Working on:G/W Hatebears, Mono Blue Tron, U/R Delver
Quote from TheDasuri:
First they came for the ghosts of past standards like Jace the Mindsculptor and artifact lands
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a filthy spike
Then they came for the cantrips
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a filthy blue player
Then they came for the Bloodbraid Elves
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a filthy midrange player
Then they came for the Seething Song
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a filthy combo player
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
If you do play the living end deck, I'd appreciate it if doing well is a criteria for whether it should be posted. It's important to know about both failures and successes while refining a deck (in no way meant to imply you owe us a tournament report, just that having a good tournament is not a litmus test for whether it's worth reporting)
I agree that positive results should be part of the criteria for posting a tournament report, so that we learn which plays are correct. No matter the deck, no matter the context, there's always many subpar and incorrect lines of play, and only one correct play. However, I do think there should be a minimum for the quality of tournaments. You usually play against better players at the GPT, PPTQ, SCG Open and IQ level at the very least, and have players that have janky brews and don't play as seriously at the FMN, weekly modern night, and Cockatrice level.
There does not seem to a viable card in all of modern that let's you put a card from your hand back into your deck either. Would be nice to see a brainstorm effect for 3 or more mana for this list, and I don't think that is actually asking a lot.
Yeah, getting three stuck in hand is terrible, and there is no way I know of to fix that issue. But, I use a 1 of Bow of Nylea to be able to cascade into LE if I drew two and only have one in my graveyard. not much chance to fix three stuck in hand though.
Living End is unique in the sense that it's a combo deck that does not want to draw it's combo card. Creatures with cycling is what makes Living End work, yet this causes functional dissonance because, cycling makes you more likely to draw a Living End. There's no way to alleviate this issue without making the bold move to splash blue for the cards mentioned above. I believe this is part of the reason that's preventing Living End from being Tier 1. This, and the lack of options for interaction before turn 3.
Has anyone tested or thought about Soul Spike. I know it is a really bad card advantage, but taking out a Deceiver Exarch or gaining 4 life out of nowhere could be very nice.
Lol now everyone is arguing about the validity of running a mountain. Amazing I noticed before playing a single game or finishing the deck.
Ok so second question, why do we run 3 Living Ends? It seems like we never want to draw this card and effectively have 7-8 copies through cascade. Is it common to cascade 3 times in a game?
It's actually pretty common to have 1 Living End stranded in hand, then need to Cascade twice in that game.
V Clique is I think subpar at best for this list, it just does not do enough and is counter to running deadshots. Amass is actually a great card that I tried with a more heavily rainbow land base, but 4 mana and sorcery is just too much. A lot of what this deck relies on is the ability to instant speed go off on an opponents turn, not only to maximize value but to counter splinter twin. Casting this on turn 4 is basically opening inviting your opponent to respond to you because now they know you are tapped out and that you have to shuffle your answers back into your deck. Were it 3 mana or instant, it would be in the deck.
I'm running a basic mountain and 0 dryad arbors. You're a caveman.
Just checked 70 of the most recent top place Living End Decks, no Mountain, so if that makes me a caveman because I tend to play and test on the competitive level (the council tells no lies, I only know how to address comments with research)...then I guess I'm a caveman (21 P.M.'s to address this comment, I guess I know a ton of cavemen that feel the same way with regards to the competitive scene).
And Slayer if those are your reasons just to run the Wooded's over the Verdants (mountain comment) then I simply don't know how to address your post at me (so I won't worry "friend"), again I tend to go off online reports and top place or top 8 Finishes, again no mountain...and still some successful with use of the Wooded's (I did note the're some splits of late 2/2).
Hydro I'm on page with Kessing, though I can split the difference with the Vault (links), you're right its a personal choice.
S.M.
p.s.
I wonder how many actually read the primers of archetypes before slamming down opinion posts (I think I better go read a few more myself to find out this whole mountain thing, 10+ hours of video, 4 online complete primers...man it's bewildering what I read sometimes from "randoms".
Talking about the mashed up version of Splinter Twin/ Living End and the mana base for the traditional Living End deck are two completely different things. Really wish people would better clarify what they are speaking about in their original posts/comments or perhaps Twinning End could get its own sub forum?
As far as life total preservation goes, anything you can cycle off of Red mana can be cycled off either Black or Green also, so just run the Verdant Catacombs as you stated you do and don't bother with a basic mountain?
Apparently we have a different understanding of the word different since running different lands equates to being the same?
Like I said though, clarification in your original post goes a long way when the discussion is built upon the traditional Living End deck.
Ok so second question, why do we run 3 Living Ends? It seems like we never want to draw this card and effectively have 7-8 copies through cascade. Is it common to cascade 3 times in a game?
I can't really afford GRove of the Burnwillows so could somebody like setup a manabase for me that would be the next best thing. The deck is very traditional, beast within, pale recluse, jungle weaver, SSG. I have access to shocklands, Wooded Foothills, can buy copperline gorge and the R/B version. Was thinking kessig over vault.
So something like this:
4 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Street Wraith
4 Pale Recluse
3 Jungle Weaver
3 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Avalanche Riders
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Shriekmaw
4 Beast Within
4 Demonic Dread
4 Violent Outburst
3 Living End
Yes, there are plenty of times where you just wanna LE to clear the board against aggro decks, or a creature you cant kill/combo piece. 3 is the correct number.
Edit: Violent Outburst in response to a Splinter Twin combo is one of our outs and it might not return as many creatures as you want, so you'll definitely want to cascade again.
Anyway, your list is pretty standard. Look at the stock mana bases and you won't find that you have to deviate very much. Budget may restrict you to Wooded Foothills instead of Verdant Catacombs, but despite the conversation you're seeing right now it really doesn't matter that much, certainly less than your unfortunate half playset of Fulminators.
Living End Contributor and Enthusiast
Come Pucatrade with me
Rules Advisor
Modern: BRGLiving EndGRB
Legacy: UBGShardless BUGGBU
BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB
WURNarset NostalgicRUW
UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU
UBlue BraidsU
GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
WBRAleshacratsBRW
UBRGrixis Pew PewRBU
URGYasova the ThreateningGRU
BGGlissa the ArticiferGB
WUSygg MerfolkUW
RSquee, Value NabobR
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
They can search for all your shocks, but Verdant can search out my only two basic lands. Forest and a Swamp. That is where Mire is lacking.
If you do play the living end deck, I'd appreciate it if doing well is a criteria for whether it should be posted. It's important to know about both failures and successes while refining a deck (in no way meant to imply you owe us a tournament report, just that having a good tournament is not a litmus test for whether it's worth reporting)
RE: 3 living ends.
Surprisingly, it is very common to cascade twice. Decks with permission frequently are able to counter the first living end (which hopefully uou fire off on their end step, so you can untap and do it again) and every once in a while a control mage brings in wrath of god and you need to rebuild your board with another end. If you have 2, then you could draw one and suddenly not have these options, and if you play one you never have these options, and if you play 4 you draw them more often. In most matchups, they're dead cards and you don't want to draw them.
There does not seem to a viable card in all of modern that let's you put a card from your hand back into your deck either. Would be nice to see a brainstorm effect for 3 or more mana for this list, and I don't think that is actually asking a lot.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
Working on:G/W Hatebears, Mono Blue Tron, U/R Delver
Quote from TheDasuri:
First they came for the ghosts of past standards like Jace the Mindsculptor and artifact lands
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a filthy spike
Then they came for the cantrips
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a filthy blue player
Then they came for the Bloodbraid Elves
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a filthy midrange player
Then they came for the Seething Song
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a filthy combo player
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
I agree that positive results should be part of the criteria for posting a tournament report, so that we learn which plays are correct. No matter the deck, no matter the context, there's always many subpar and incorrect lines of play, and only one correct play. However, I do think there should be a minimum for the quality of tournaments. You usually play against better players at the GPT, PPTQ, SCG Open and IQ level at the very least, and have players that have janky brews and don't play as seriously at the FMN, weekly modern night, and Cockatrice level.
There's vendilion Clique and Amass the Components, but those are blue, sadly.
Living End is unique in the sense that it's a combo deck that does not want to draw it's combo card. Creatures with cycling is what makes Living End work, yet this causes functional dissonance because, cycling makes you more likely to draw a Living End. There's no way to alleviate this issue without making the bold move to splash blue for the cards mentioned above. I believe this is part of the reason that's preventing Living End from being Tier 1. This, and the lack of options for interaction before turn 3.
It's actually pretty common to have 1 Living End stranded in hand, then need to Cascade twice in that game.
V Clique is I think subpar at best for this list, it just does not do enough and is counter to running deadshots. Amass is actually a great card that I tried with a more heavily rainbow land base, but 4 mana and sorcery is just too much. A lot of what this deck relies on is the ability to instant speed go off on an opponents turn, not only to maximize value but to counter splinter twin. Casting this on turn 4 is basically opening inviting your opponent to respond to you because now they know you are tapped out and that you have to shuffle your answers back into your deck. Were it 3 mana or instant, it would be in the deck.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
Sideboard
SB is not set in stone. I'd like to throw a krosan grip or kataki in.