I don't hate Nahiri. As I've said long ago, I advocated playing it Jeskai when it first came out. I'm saying people overvalue the crap out of it. Players have gone way too far to the other side, and I'm including pros in this.
Maybe overvalue in some sense, but I see Nahiri as the linchpin of UWR control's T1 status. My interpretation of Modern today is that it is a turn 3 1/2 format (it has sped up half a turn) in which you either play aggro or you include a wincon that ends the game if undisrupted. Currently there aren't any other viable wincons to fill that role for UWR; and Nahiri is overall synergistic with the deck. (And Emrakul is synergistic with Nahiri.)
So even though I agree that Nahiri is imperfect, she offers something that UWR requires in order to sustain its T1 status. In that latter sense, she is not overvalued. I believe that the right shell for Nahiri hasn't been uncovered yet: I think she has potential to gain power as players gain understanding. And she has a similar potential to improve each time a new fattie is printed.
Nahiri allows you to play an already good deck, but with a wincon that will randomly win games with no mana investment after you drop the 4 for Nahiri.
Thopter decks are bad when you're not playing the combo.
I'm also not a fan of Kiki considering that the manabase is clunky, and Kiki is garbage when you don't have the other parts. Granted, Emrakul also sucks, but with 4 Nahiri (and I like Desolate Lighthouse in the deck, too) you can discard it to draw a card and put it in your library so you can ult Nahiri.
I don't hate Nahiri. As I've said long ago, I advocated playing it Jeskai when it first came out. I'm saying people overvalue the crap out of it. Players have gone way too far to the other side, and I'm including pros in this.
I agree. It's pretty much just a good win condition for an already good deck. It's definitely better for the deck than AV, and after a few months of playing with that, my initial suspicions were confirmed, and it's really awkward most of the time. Nahiri enhances the deck if you want a random win scenario.
EDIT: If you want to win the mirror, Aven Mindcensor is a good option as tronix has said, but Shadow of Doubt is also pretty good. You could run both.
I don't get why most of you guys don't run AV in Nahiri builds. I keep reading about how Nahiri is better than AV or the other way around, but why not play both? I'm doing so, and having solid results.
Then have fun. I've found it to be ranging from clunky to bad. I end up boarding it out for actual answers or somewhat useful things I can at least reuse with Snapcaster Mage. If anything, I prefer Serum Visions to Ancestral Vision but I don't love that either. Worse yet, I absolutely destroyed a heap of Nahiri Jeskai and Grixis control decks running AV and SV simultaneously. All it did was draw them a (largely) heap of randomness with a few pertinent cards. Maybe I've been lucky so far, but it's been almost 2 months and I haven't seen evidence that I really should be using AV.
Serum Visions is better than AV in Nahiri builds because you can dig for a Nahiri if you want and also get land drops in lower land builds. I quite like Anticipate over either Vision because of instant speed.
Again. Why not run both? I run 4x Nahiri, 4x AV, 3x Serum. We have slots. You don't need Cryptics or Electrolyzes when you have AV. You can cast more copies of the most efficient spells (Path, Bolt, Snap).
Peter Ingram top 4'd Orlando with a list running 4x Nahiri, 4x Serum, 3x AV. No Cryptics nor Electrolyzes (not even Helix, but I disagree on THAT). It's not the first list with both Nahiri and AV doing good. So it's not like there's no evidence of the strength of AV.
But mostly: have you guys tried it? In my experience all AV does is winning games. As simple as that. It's that card that most often made the difference between winning and losing for me. Absolutely backbreaking for BGx. Why anyone would run cards like Electrolyze or Cryptic over AV is an absolute mystery to me.
That's a lot of card draw, but to draw what? More card draw? I'd rather run more answers. Cards like Timely Reinforcements and Anger of the Gods in the mainboard to take up some of those extra slots have been fantastic for me in the Nahiri Build. AV is great versus Jund/Junk and other heavy midrange decks that you constantly need proactive answers, but it has never been good anywhere else for me (Yes, I have tried all of the combinations for AV and SV, main board, and side board). No Electrolyze and no Helix's seems like a bad idea, especially in this current generic meta that seems to be full of fast, low cost aggro decks.
Also, agreed on the Thopter Combo being bad... At least in this deck. We simply don't run enough (or ANY) artifacts, meaning that either of the Thopter Combo pieces are useless without the other. I'd rather not be Time Walking my opponent. As for the Kiki Combo; again, coming from Twin, I thought that's where I'd be right at home too. Problem is, the Kiki Combo is just downright weak. It's too much mana investment for such an easily disrupt-able combo. There is a reason us Twin players stopped running Kiki-Jiki altogether. Kiki is fine in Kiki-Chord, whereas those decks can play him faster and even at instant speed, but for us, it's seriously just not good at all. Running Kiki usually also means that we're gonna be running Resto Angel, which as much as I absolutely adore that card (I mean, my profile picture is the angel after all :P), trying to find a sound combination of a 5 mana card, and a 4 mana card, in addition to whatever else you may choose to run, whether it be Nahiri, Cryptic Command, etc., can leave for some really clunky draws.
My personal thoughts on AV: I think that if Splinter Twin was ever unbanned, I and most Twin players still wouldn't run it over or in addition to SV in a Twin list.
Thoughts on this list? i've posted recently but have made some changes and they seem to be for the best.
I really like the Gideon Jura, it hoses the aggro decks and is also a really good finisher in the late game with Clestial Colonnade.
I'd really like to run some amount of Lightning helix, but there just isn't any space for it.
What is the general concensus on an Anger of the gods in the maindeck?
Considering cutting a Serum visions for a clique or something. I often draw it in multiples and i'd rather just draw some more gas without having to sacrifice tempo.
Again. Why not run both? I run 4x Nahiri, 4x AV, 3x Serum. We have slots. You don't need Cryptics or Electrolyzes when you have AV. You can cast more copies of the most efficient spells (Path, Bolt, Snap).
Peter Ingram top 4'd Orlando with a list running 4x Nahiri, 4x Serum, 3x AV. No Cryptics nor Electrolyzes (not even Helix, but I disagree on THAT). It's not the first list with both Nahiri and AV doing good. So it's not like there's no evidence of the strength of AV.
But mostly: have you guys tried it? In my experience all AV does is winning games. As simple as that. It's that card that most often made the difference between winning and losing for me. Absolutely backbreaking for BGx. Why anyone would run cards like Electrolyze or Cryptic over AV is an absolute mystery to me.
That's a lot of card draw, but to draw what? More card draw? I'd rather run more answers. Cards like Timely Reinforcements and Anger of the Gods in the mainboard to take up some of those extra slots have been fantastic for me in the Nahiri Build. AV is great versus Jund/Junk and other heavy midrange decks that you constantly need proactive answers, but it has never been good anywhere else for me (Yes, I have tried all of the combinations for AV and SV, main board, and side board). No Electrolyze and no Helix's seems like a bad idea, especially in this current generic meta that seems to be full of fast, low cost aggro decks.
Also, agreed on the Thopter Combo being bad... At least in this deck. We simply don't run enough (or ANY) artifacts, meaning that either of the Thopter Combo pieces are useless without the other. I'd rather not be Time Walking my opponent. As for the Kiki Combo; again, coming from Twin, I thought that's where I'd be right at home too. Problem is, the Kiki Combo is just downright weak. It's too much mana investment for such an easily disrupt-able combo. There is a reason us Twin players stopped running Kiki-Jiki altogether. Kiki is fine in Kiki-Chord, whereas those decks can play him faster and even at instant speed, but for us, it's seriously just not good at all. Running Kiki usually also means that we're gonna be running Resto Angel, which as much as I absolutely adore that card (I mean, my profile picture is the angel after all :P), trying to find a sound combination of a 5 mana card, and a 4 mana card, in addition to whatever else you may choose to run, whether it be Nahiri, Cryptic Command, etc., can leave for some really clunky draws.
My personal thoughts on AV: I think that if Splinter Twin was ever unbanned, I and most Twin players still wouldn't run it over or in addition to SV in a Twin list.
Why theory crafting instead of actually testing cards? This is what I don't understand. And Twin doesn't have anything to do with the discussion on AV here. You say you tested AV but sorry, from what I read, I doubt you did it for long enough.
I have some decent amount of testing to base my arguments on, not just some cockatrice games to be clear.
And I really don't see how people are scared of aggro decks when playing with a deck that has 4x Path, 4x Bolt, 4x Snap (and, in my case, 4x Helix). Plus sideboard sweepers/Timely. Aggressive decks are a naturally good MU for this deck.
I've tested about 40 matches on MTGO using AV. I dislike it.
Aggro, is typically an easier match up for us. That doesn't mean we're invincible to it, and it's the most prominent style of decks in the format.
I'm referencing Twin as a means to discuss my overarching intentions, being that the Nahiri version of this deck (and also the best version of this deck), plays out very similarly to Twin's general game plan. It's a very effective one, and I suggest considering it in order to gain some of that valuable knowledge.
I think GerryT is definitely on to something with the way he builds his deck in the form of 4-3 Serum Visions - Ancestral Vision split. I've done some testing against a few common matchups (Affinity, Jund, Burn, Grixis, Zoo) and AV has been an all-star in every single one of those matchups except Burn. Aside from that matchup, the card provides us with the gas to burn through the mid to late game.
We survive long enough against the aggro decks in the format to actually get to resolve AV. I think it really depends on how you build the deck. With AV, it's important to have some sort of tools to gain back a lot of the tempo lost in T1-2 AV (and SV) that actually secure our ability to resolve AV. Maindeck sweepers in the form of Anger of the Gods or Wrath of God allow us to get into the late game and end up resolving AV. I lean towards Anger just because it is a turn sooner and curves well into Nahiri, the Harbinger but I also think the choice of sweepers is very meta dependent which is why I think some people have moved over to Wrath or Supreme Verdict instead because Anger doesn't hit everything. Maindeck Timely Reinforcements has also been pretty solid for me lately. It is hardly ever an entirely dead card and when it is, we have the tools to loot it away.
I think the decision between 3-4 Lightning Helix or 1-2 Timely Reinforcements + 1-2 Anger of the Gods is meta dependent and personal preference. I think Helix allows us the ability to burn out our opponents a lot more effectively in an unknown meta because at the end of the day, Helix is never a dead card because you can always point it upstairs. However, in the right meta, the other two choices can have a much larger impact on a game or matchup.
I think AV is a potent tool to have in the 75 of Jeskai decks if you build your deck correctly. It can be okay in the sideboard. Like I said above, in the decks where it is too slow, we have ways to slow down the game to actually get to that point. Yes, it can be an annoying topdeck, but so can Mana Leak and people still run the card. We have a lot of ways to manipulate our draws (Nahiri, Desolate Lighthouse, Serum Visions) so I don't buy the argument of it being a bad topdeck. We tend to have a lot of those anyways because our answers aren't broad, they are specific depending on the matchup.
With Jund rising to nearly 10% of the metagame and Top 8'ing in a lot of events, not running one of our best grindy tools and in my opinion, one of the strongest blue cards in the format right now, is a mistake. You can't just jam 4 AV in the deck and win, but if you build your deck properly to actually make use out of AV, it can be an incredible card that swings game.
Just my 2 cents.
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The reason I dislike running both AV and SV is because I don't like spending much mana on card selection in the early game. The early game is when you lose the match, even if you only actually hit 0 life on turn 12. Too many draw spells might eventually draw you into the cards you want but if you've lost ten life by the time you get to cast them it won't matter anymore
AV also gives these not too uncommon horror scenarios where you have colonnade AV and a counterspell in hand and have to either not interact with your opponent for at least two turns or delay the value of your card all the way to turn seven. Now if the matchup does easily go to turn seven (and not turn seven dead-on-board, turn seven we-are-actually-still-playing-magic-turn-seven) AV is a powerhouse but that's the minority of the meta
I think the "downfall" of AV is that it's an early game card when our early game already was really powerful; remand, mana leak, bolt and helix are all ridiculously powerful spells, and casting AV often ends up meaning not casting one of those. That's why it ended up not living up to the hype whilst Nahiri made such huge waves; even if you don't think she is that good, she's at least a new way for jeskai to close out the game that people wanted to try out
I think GerryT is definitely on to something with the way he builds his deck in the form of 4-3 Serum Visions - Ancestral Vision split. I've done some testing against a few common matchups (Affinity, Jund, Burn, Grixis, Zoo) and AV has been an all-star in every single one of those matchups except Burn. Aside from that matchup, the card provides us with the gas to burn through the mid to late game.
We survive long enough against the aggro decks in the format to actually get to resolve AV. I think it really depends on how you build the deck. With AV, it's important to have some sort of tools to gain back a lot of the tempo lost in T1-2 AV (and SV) that actually secure our ability to resolve AV. Maindeck sweepers in the form of Anger of the Gods or Wrath of God allow us to get into the late game and end up resolving AV. I lean towards Anger just because it is a turn sooner and curves well into Nahiri, the Harbinger but I also think the choice of sweepers is very meta dependent which is why I think some people have moved over to Wrath or Supreme Verdict instead because Anger doesn't hit everything. Maindeck Timely Reinforcements has also been pretty solid for me lately. It is hardly ever an entirely dead card and when it is, we have the tools to loot it away.
I think the decision between 3-4 Lightning Helix or 1-2 Timely Reinforcements + 1-2 Anger of the Gods is meta dependent and personal preference. I think Helix allows us the ability to burn out our opponents a lot more effectively in an unknown meta because at the end of the day, Helix is never a dead card because you can always point it upstairs. However, in the right meta, the other two choices can have a much larger impact on a game or matchup.
I think AV is a potent tool to have in the 75 of Jeskai decks if you build your deck correctly. It can be okay in the sideboard. Like I said above, in the decks where it is too slow, we have ways to slow down the game to actually get to that point. Yes, it can be an annoying topdeck, but so can Mana Leak and people still run the card. We have a lot of ways to manipulate our draws (Nahiri, Desolate Lighthouse, Serum Visions) so I don't buy the argument of it being a bad topdeck. We tend to have a lot of those anyways because our answers aren't broad, they are specific depending on the matchup.
With Jund rising to nearly 10% of the metagame and Top 8'ing in a lot of events, not running one of our best grindy tools and in my opinion, one of the strongest blue cards in the format right now, is a mistake. You can't just jam 4 AV in the deck and win, but if you build your deck properly to actually make use out of AV, it can be an incredible card that swings game.
Just my 2 cents.
In this case, I personally run 2 AV main, and 1-2 in the side board. I run no SV, as I don't see how SV is good these days. Most people use it as an excuse to run less lands, which is bad. Jund already has a harder time with us these days thanks to Nahiri herself, but I do agree that AV is very important to that match up.
The reason I dislike running both AV and SV is because I don't like spending much mana on card selection in the early game. The early game is when you lose the match, even if you only actually hit 0 life on turn 12. Too many draw spells might eventually draw you into the cards you want but if you've lost ten life by the time you get to cast them it won't matter anymore
AV also gives these not too uncommon horror scenarios where you have colonnade AV and a counterspell in hand and have to either not interact with your opponent for at least two turns or delay the value of your card all the way to turn seven. Now if the matchup does easily go to turn seven (and not turn seven dead-on-board, turn seven we-are-actually-still-playing-magic-turn-seven) AV is a powerhouse but that's the minority of the meta
I think the "downfall" of AV is that it's an early game card when our early game already was really powerful; remand, mana leak, bolt and helix are all ridiculously powerful spells, and casting AV often ends up meaning not casting one of those. That's why it ended up not living up to the hype whilst Nahiri made such huge waves; even if you don't think she is that good, she's at least a new way for jeskai to close out the game that people wanted to try out
Regarding your first point, the early game doesn't have to be when we lose the match. There are some matchups where that is true like Burn or Infect where T1 Bolt/Path into T2 Counter/More Removal is incredibly important, but even then that isn't always the case. You won't be dead if you play a T1 draw spell into T2 counterspell/removal. A lot of the decks that are running AV are using some sort of tool to regain the tempo they lost on Turn 1. With Grixis, it is the ability to drop a Turn 2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang or a Turn 4 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, while backing them up with removal. Blue Moon uses Anger of the Gods to secure the ground game or keep up removal/counterspells to get to resolve AV, as well as playing Blood Moon itself to disrupt the opponent for long enough. We, as Jeskai, also have tools to make the game go long enough in the form of Anger of the Gods, Timely Reinforcements which is a fantastic tool that none of the other non-white decks get to use, and Nahiri, which forces the opponent to go after her or lose the game. All of these extend the game and are played by Turn 3 and 4, all the while being backed up by cheap removal and counterspells that we already play.
AV + T1 Blue Spell has always been a horror scenario, but even moreso now that we're running a lot of cantrips. The downside to running the cantrips is in fact that now the right number of Colonnades is somewhere around 2-3, meaning that we lose a little edge in the Colonande + Burn plan, which means we rely on Nahiri a lot which can get hated out from sideboard tools Games 2 and 3. These are very real issues, which is why versatile cards like Wear // Tear and Engineered Explosives can be pretty important from the sideboard. How can you say AV is a powerhouse in the minority of the meta when it is flat out game winning in: Jund (8.8%), Jeskai Control (6.6%), Grixis (3.6%), Abzan (2.1%), arguably Scapeshift (3.7%) and Tron (7.6%) and then perfectly viable against a lot of Tier 2 and 3 strategies as well as Tier 1 and 2 aggro strategies. (Source: ModernNexus)
No, AV is not some sort of godsend, but it is very powerful and not taking advantage of it in the current metagame is a mistake IMO. With that said, there have been lists that have had good success either way (Source: mtgtop8) and I think there is still definitely some discussion to be had on how many AV/SV to run. Many times, I think it will become a question of metagaming. These cards don't exist in a vacuum.
@Aaurra, on the topic of Serum Visions, I think it provides a lot of extra consistency to the deck. It allows us not only to just hit land drops, but keep more hands and get the right tools we need for the right matchups. I don't want to compare it too much to Legacy, but cantrips just increase overall consistency of the deck. You also don't have to cast it on T1, especially if you have no idea what the matchup is or what cards you're looking for. It's a common mistake that a lot of newer players make.
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Regarding your first point, the early game doesn't have to be when we lose the match. (...) You won't be dead if you play a T1 draw spell into T2 counterspell/removal.
But it very often is. And that's not only the case for the aggro decks mind you; a jund deck playing some combination of discard, bob, fulminator or liliana turn 1 to 3 also puts you in a situation of having to play catchup for the next four turns, and that's only if AV actually draws what you need which also isn't a guarantee. And all that is in the situation of the dream turn 1 AV
There have been lists with AV that have had good success either way (Source: mtgtop8)
Mind you, I was the #1 hypeman for AV when it just got unbanned; I'm pretty sure I said something around the lines of "every control list without 4 mainboard AV is incorrect". And it's still as powerful as I expected it to be, it's just also incredibly clunky, it's like a bazooka you can only operate with your teeth. And modern is just a format that severely punishes you for being clunky
Mind you, I was the #1 hypeman for AV when it just got unbanned; I'm pretty sure I said something around the lines of "every control list without 4 mainboard AV is incorrect". And it's still as powerful as I expected it to be, it's just also incredibly clunky, it's like a bazooka you can only operate with your teeth. And modern is just a format that severely punishes you for being clunky
This made me laugh out loud at work. I needed that.
I think the biggest thing against AV is time committed to resolving. It may be the card for this deck but generally speaking I think it's too slow. Let's go back and consider r2r standard and I would like to compare resolving a sphinx's rev vs resolving an AV on turn 5. What happens if you draw for example land, AV, and something else when the AV comes off of suspend? Well you have some card advantage but not much quality. If for example you draw a sphinx's rev off of your first it just starts drowning people in card advantage. Good luck resolving a second AV in most match ups if you didn't hit the card you were looking for in those 3 cards. Maybe one resolution of AV was enough to get you there but if it doesn't, here you are waiting out four more turns trying to resolve a second AV. I think cards like think twice or anticipate are generally better. If they don't get countered you get value immediately. Sure it isn't as strong as AV but they are way less conditional. I would also like to point out that AV is a non-bo with snapcaster mage while something like anticipate snap-anticipate can dig 6 deep in a fairly quick amount of time and can really help find what was missing. For the record I am not advocating 4x sphinx's revelations by any means I just am trying to point out that other draw spells that draw into the same card are much better than drawing a second AV and having to wait for more suspend turns to resolve. I am not a pro level player and I may not be giving AV the credit it is due but If I am looking for a card in a bad situation I don't want to have to wait four turns to get it. Think twice and anticipate are not flashy but generally speaking they will get you there.
And also: AV makes our plan b way stronger and more consistent. The Nahiri plan won't always work. Sometimes a Pithing Needle will be enough to stop it. When I can't win via Nahiri, I'm happy to know I still have AV in my deck and I can bury my opponent under card advantage.
Your arguments are kinda funny. You might as well just say "I love AV and you should too!"
So even though I agree that Nahiri is imperfect, she offers something that UWR requires in order to sustain its T1 status. In that latter sense, she is not overvalued. I believe that the right shell for Nahiri hasn't been uncovered yet: I think she has potential to gain power as players gain understanding. And she has a similar potential to improve each time a new fattie is printed.
Thopter decks are bad when you're not playing the combo.
I'm also not a fan of Kiki considering that the manabase is clunky, and Kiki is garbage when you don't have the other parts. Granted, Emrakul also sucks, but with 4 Nahiri (and I like Desolate Lighthouse in the deck, too) you can discard it to draw a card and put it in your library so you can ult Nahiri.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
I agree. It's pretty much just a good win condition for an already good deck. It's definitely better for the deck than AV, and after a few months of playing with that, my initial suspicions were confirmed, and it's really awkward most of the time. Nahiri enhances the deck if you want a random win scenario.
EDIT: If you want to win the mirror, Aven Mindcensor is a good option as tronix has said, but Shadow of Doubt is also pretty good. You could run both.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
Then have fun. I've found it to be ranging from clunky to bad. I end up boarding it out for actual answers or somewhat useful things I can at least reuse with Snapcaster Mage. If anything, I prefer Serum Visions to Ancestral Vision but I don't love that either. Worse yet, I absolutely destroyed a heap of Nahiri Jeskai and Grixis control decks running AV and SV simultaneously. All it did was draw them a (largely) heap of randomness with a few pertinent cards. Maybe I've been lucky so far, but it's been almost 2 months and I haven't seen evidence that I really should be using AV.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
That's a lot of card draw, but to draw what? More card draw? I'd rather run more answers. Cards like Timely Reinforcements and Anger of the Gods in the mainboard to take up some of those extra slots have been fantastic for me in the Nahiri Build. AV is great versus Jund/Junk and other heavy midrange decks that you constantly need proactive answers, but it has never been good anywhere else for me (Yes, I have tried all of the combinations for AV and SV, main board, and side board). No Electrolyze and no Helix's seems like a bad idea, especially in this current generic meta that seems to be full of fast, low cost aggro decks.
Also, agreed on the Thopter Combo being bad... At least in this deck. We simply don't run enough (or ANY) artifacts, meaning that either of the Thopter Combo pieces are useless without the other. I'd rather not be Time Walking my opponent. As for the Kiki Combo; again, coming from Twin, I thought that's where I'd be right at home too. Problem is, the Kiki Combo is just downright weak. It's too much mana investment for such an easily disrupt-able combo. There is a reason us Twin players stopped running Kiki-Jiki altogether. Kiki is fine in Kiki-Chord, whereas those decks can play him faster and even at instant speed, but for us, it's seriously just not good at all. Running Kiki usually also means that we're gonna be running Resto Angel, which as much as I absolutely adore that card (I mean, my profile picture is the angel after all :P), trying to find a sound combination of a 5 mana card, and a 4 mana card, in addition to whatever else you may choose to run, whether it be Nahiri, Cryptic Command, etc., can leave for some really clunky draws.
My personal thoughts on AV: I think that if Splinter Twin was ever unbanned, I and most Twin players still wouldn't run it over or in addition to SV in a Twin list.
I really like the Gideon Jura, it hoses the aggro decks and is also a really good finisher in the late game with Clestial Colonnade.
I'd really like to run some amount of Lightning helix, but there just isn't any space for it.
What is the general concensus on an Anger of the gods in the maindeck?
Considering cutting a Serum visions for a clique or something. I often draw it in multiples and i'd rather just draw some more gas without having to sacrifice tempo.
Anyway, here it is :
4 snapcaster mage
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
The gas (30)
4 serum visions
4 lightning bolt
4 path to exile
2 electrolyze
2 cryptic command
1 timely reinforcements
2 mana leak
2 remand
1 logic knot
1 supreme verdict
2 spell snare
4 nahiri, the harbinger
1 gideon jura
4 scalding tarn
4 flooded strand
1 arid mesa
2 steam vents
2 hallowed fountain
1 sacred foundry
1 sulfur falls
4 celestial colonnade
2 island
1 mountain
1 plains
1 ghost quarter
1 desolate lighthouse
1 vendilion clique
1 wear / tear
1 elspeth, sun's champion
1 relic of progenitus
2 stony silence
2 negate
1 crumble to dust
1 izzet staticaster
1 timely reinforcements
1 celestial purge
1 dispel
2 anger of the gods
I've tested about 40 matches on MTGO using AV. I dislike it.
Aggro, is typically an easier match up for us. That doesn't mean we're invincible to it, and it's the most prominent style of decks in the format.
I'm referencing Twin as a means to discuss my overarching intentions, being that the Nahiri version of this deck (and also the best version of this deck), plays out very similarly to Twin's general game plan. It's a very effective one, and I suggest considering it in order to gain some of that valuable knowledge.
We survive long enough against the aggro decks in the format to actually get to resolve AV. I think it really depends on how you build the deck. With AV, it's important to have some sort of tools to gain back a lot of the tempo lost in T1-2 AV (and SV) that actually secure our ability to resolve AV. Maindeck sweepers in the form of Anger of the Gods or Wrath of God allow us to get into the late game and end up resolving AV. I lean towards Anger just because it is a turn sooner and curves well into Nahiri, the Harbinger but I also think the choice of sweepers is very meta dependent which is why I think some people have moved over to Wrath or Supreme Verdict instead because Anger doesn't hit everything. Maindeck Timely Reinforcements has also been pretty solid for me lately. It is hardly ever an entirely dead card and when it is, we have the tools to loot it away.
I think the decision between 3-4 Lightning Helix or 1-2 Timely Reinforcements + 1-2 Anger of the Gods is meta dependent and personal preference. I think Helix allows us the ability to burn out our opponents a lot more effectively in an unknown meta because at the end of the day, Helix is never a dead card because you can always point it upstairs. However, in the right meta, the other two choices can have a much larger impact on a game or matchup.
I think AV is a potent tool to have in the 75 of Jeskai decks if you build your deck correctly. It can be okay in the sideboard. Like I said above, in the decks where it is too slow, we have ways to slow down the game to actually get to that point. Yes, it can be an annoying topdeck, but so can Mana Leak and people still run the card. We have a lot of ways to manipulate our draws (Nahiri, Desolate Lighthouse, Serum Visions) so I don't buy the argument of it being a bad topdeck. We tend to have a lot of those anyways because our answers aren't broad, they are specific depending on the matchup.
With Jund rising to nearly 10% of the metagame and Top 8'ing in a lot of events, not running one of our best grindy tools and in my opinion, one of the strongest blue cards in the format right now, is a mistake. You can't just jam 4 AV in the deck and win, but if you build your deck properly to actually make use out of AV, it can be an incredible card that swings game.
Just my 2 cents.
AV also gives these not too uncommon horror scenarios where you have colonnade AV and a counterspell in hand and have to either not interact with your opponent for at least two turns or delay the value of your card all the way to turn seven. Now if the matchup does easily go to turn seven (and not turn seven dead-on-board, turn seven we-are-actually-still-playing-magic-turn-seven) AV is a powerhouse but that's the minority of the meta
I think the "downfall" of AV is that it's an early game card when our early game already was really powerful; remand, mana leak, bolt and helix are all ridiculously powerful spells, and casting AV often ends up meaning not casting one of those. That's why it ended up not living up to the hype whilst Nahiri made such huge waves; even if you don't think she is that good, she's at least a new way for jeskai to close out the game that people wanted to try out
In this case, I personally run 2 AV main, and 1-2 in the side board. I run no SV, as I don't see how SV is good these days. Most people use it as an excuse to run less lands, which is bad. Jund already has a harder time with us these days thanks to Nahiri herself, but I do agree that AV is very important to that match up.
Regarding your first point, the early game doesn't have to be when we lose the match. There are some matchups where that is true like Burn or Infect where T1 Bolt/Path into T2 Counter/More Removal is incredibly important, but even then that isn't always the case. You won't be dead if you play a T1 draw spell into T2 counterspell/removal. A lot of the decks that are running AV are using some sort of tool to regain the tempo they lost on Turn 1. With Grixis, it is the ability to drop a Turn 2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang or a Turn 4 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, while backing them up with removal. Blue Moon uses Anger of the Gods to secure the ground game or keep up removal/counterspells to get to resolve AV, as well as playing Blood Moon itself to disrupt the opponent for long enough. We, as Jeskai, also have tools to make the game go long enough in the form of Anger of the Gods, Timely Reinforcements which is a fantastic tool that none of the other non-white decks get to use, and Nahiri, which forces the opponent to go after her or lose the game. All of these extend the game and are played by Turn 3 and 4, all the while being backed up by cheap removal and counterspells that we already play.
AV + T1 Blue Spell has always been a horror scenario, but even moreso now that we're running a lot of cantrips. The downside to running the cantrips is in fact that now the right number of Colonnades is somewhere around 2-3, meaning that we lose a little edge in the Colonande + Burn plan, which means we rely on Nahiri a lot which can get hated out from sideboard tools Games 2 and 3. These are very real issues, which is why versatile cards like Wear // Tear and Engineered Explosives can be pretty important from the sideboard. How can you say AV is a powerhouse in the minority of the meta when it is flat out game winning in: Jund (8.8%), Jeskai Control (6.6%), Grixis (3.6%), Abzan (2.1%), arguably Scapeshift (3.7%) and Tron (7.6%) and then perfectly viable against a lot of Tier 2 and 3 strategies as well as Tier 1 and 2 aggro strategies. (Source: ModernNexus)
No, AV is not some sort of godsend, but it is very powerful and not taking advantage of it in the current metagame is a mistake IMO. With that said, there have been lists that have had good success either way (Source: mtgtop8) and I think there is still definitely some discussion to be had on how many AV/SV to run. Many times, I think it will become a question of metagaming. These cards don't exist in a vacuum.
@Aaurra, on the topic of Serum Visions, I think it provides a lot of extra consistency to the deck. It allows us not only to just hit land drops, but keep more hands and get the right tools we need for the right matchups. I don't want to compare it too much to Legacy, but cantrips just increase overall consistency of the deck. You also don't have to cast it on T1, especially if you have no idea what the matchup is or what cards you're looking for. It's a common mistake that a lot of newer players make.
But it very often is. And that's not only the case for the aggro decks mind you; a jund deck playing some combination of discard, bob, fulminator or liliana turn 1 to 3 also puts you in a situation of having to play catchup for the next four turns, and that's only if AV actually draws what you need which also isn't a guarantee. And all that is in the situation of the dream turn 1 AV
5 out of 20 winning jeskai lists on mtgtop8 run AV, and all five of those lists are mtgo league top 8's. I wouldn't really take that as an argument for playing it.
Yes, which is exactly one of my big gripes with AV which becomes worse every turn it is stranded in your hand.
This made me laugh out loud at work. I needed that.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Your arguments are kinda funny. You might as well just say "I love AV and you should too!"
Did anyone tried Monastery Siege with Nahiri?
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!