you could play all 4 helix in the sb
i like all four or none in my decks
Any reasoning to back up that theory?
It's the next few sentences after your quote.
And concerning Keranos... You are only aiming your analysis for gb/x....this i agree with 100%. But I have it for different match ups...a resolved keranos has no permanent answer in control match ups save purge (which they use on nahiri mostly) and that becomes your pressure while you exchange cardboard.
Also nahiri can find keranos if emra isnt an option (looking at bridge mostly)
Also to mirror your tidings thinking...is there a card that does 9 damage for 5 mana.
It you thinking of Keranos as 9 damage for 5 mana I'm not sure what to tell you. I'll restate again, Keranos is not a playable card in top tier Jeskai lists. G/B decks are decent match-ups now. Running him to bring in against control is also bizarre. The match up should already be around 50% considering they are mirrors. You shouldn't be sideboarding such low impact cards. Sideboard a card that swings percentages, like life gain against burn, Stony Silence against Affinity, Spellskite for Infect and Boggles, Crumble to Dust vs. Tron. These cards swing percentages.
Keranos is a pet card from a past era. It was a singleton for Splinter Twin sideboards and occasionally Jeskai lists. With the addition of Ancestral Vision (or Nahiri take your pick) this card is obsolete.
The keranos dealing 9 damage for 5 mana is directly comparing your statement that keranos is like tiding drawing 3 cards over 3 turns. It's just the opposite side of the same coin.
Tidings draws 4 cards for 5 mana. So you get the cards right away.
Not really sure where the argument is going though. Keranos is pretty lackluster nowadays. Searching for it with Nahiri seems a very small advantage at best since you still need to cast it. At that point you might get the same, if not more, advantage by keeping Nahiri on the table filtering cards and destroying random permanents.
I think I might try out Inferno Titan the next time I play and see how it feels.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Round 1 vs infect
I killed his first dude game 1, he never saw another
G2 i killed 3 dudes but drew nothing but land all game, he 1 shots me on turn 7ish
G3 i kill his first 4 dudes, he concedes when nahiri comes down
1-0
Round 2 vs burn
G1 i drew less helix than he drew burn
G2 i drew more helix than he drew burn
G3 i drew more helix than he drew burn
2-0
Round 3 vs jund
G1 literally neither of us managed to find any way to win the game until like turn 15. I finally find a nahiri after resolving 3 AV.
G2 he sets up a fulminator mage - k command loop. I lose quickly after the 6th land is blown up
G3 was extremely tight and close, but i never actually drew a way to win the game, so eventually it goes to him
2-1
Round 4 vs rw norin soul sisters
G1 he mulls to 4 keeps a no lander
G2 purphoros + that thing that spawns myr kills me
G3 same story
How do we beat this matchup?
Overall went 2-2. My biggest problem all tournament was struggling to find a way to win the game. Maybe i was just unlucky, but i managed to draw nahiri twice the entire tournament, and collonade's appeared to not want to be drawn either. Will be trying to squeeze a few more proactive cards in the deck
Round 1 vs infect
I killed his first dude game 1, he never saw another
G2 i killed 3 dudes but drew nothing but land all game, he 1 shots me on turn 7ish
G3 i kill his first 4 dudes, he concedes when nahiri comes down
1-0
Round 2 vs burn
G1 i drew less helix than he drew burn
G2 i drew more helix than he drew burn
G3 i drew more helix than he drew burn
2-0
Round 3 vs jund
G1 literally neither of us managed to find any way to win the game until like turn 15. I finally find a nahiri after resolving 3 AV.
G2 he sets up a fulminator mage - k command loop. I lose quickly after the 6th land is blown up
G3 was extremely tight and close, but i never actually drew a way to win the game, so eventually it goes to him
2-1
Round 4 vs rw norin soul sisters
G1 he mulls to 4 keeps a no lander
G2 purphoros + that thing that spawns myr kills me
G3 same story
How do we beat this matchup?
Overall went 2-2. My biggest problem all tournament was struggling to find a way to win the game. Maybe i was just unlucky, but i managed to draw nahiri twice the entire tournament, and collonade's appeared to not want to be drawn either. Will be trying to squeeze a few more proactive cards in the deck
The RW Norin match isn't very bad in my experience. Don't let them resolve bigger spells, and if you can, use Nahiri to kill Purphoros and their 2 cost enchantment that hits us whenever they play creatures (can't remember what it's called right now). Snipe any sisters on sight, because if they stick, they can drag the game on in their favor. This is just another match where you wanna play fast.
Round 1 vs infect
I killed his first dude game 1, he never saw another
G2 i killed 3 dudes but drew nothing but land all game, he 1 shots me on turn 7ish
G3 i kill his first 4 dudes, he concedes when nahiri comes down
1-0
Round 2 vs burn
G1 i drew less helix than he drew burn
G2 i drew more helix than he drew burn
G3 i drew more helix than he drew burn
2-0
Round 3 vs jund
G1 literally neither of us managed to find any way to win the game until like turn 15. I finally find a nahiri after resolving 3 AV.
G2 he sets up a fulminator mage - k command loop. I lose quickly after the 6th land is blown up
G3 was extremely tight and close, but i never actually drew a way to win the game, so eventually it goes to him
2-1
Round 4 vs rw norin soul sisters
G1 he mulls to 4 keeps a no lander
G2 purphoros + that thing that spawns myr kills me
G3 same story
How do we beat this matchup?
Overall went 2-2. My biggest problem all tournament was struggling to find a way to win the game. Maybe i was just unlucky, but i managed to draw nahiri twice the entire tournament, and collonade's appeared to not want to be drawn either. Will be trying to squeeze a few more proactive cards in the deck
The RW Norin match isn't very bad in my experience. Don't let them resolve bigger spells, and if you can, use Nahiri to kill Purphoros and their 2 cost enchantment that hits us whenever they play creatures (can't remember what it's called right now). Snipe any sisters on sight, because if they stick, they can drag the game on in their favor. This is just another match where you wanna play fast.
You know, I completely forgot about nahiri since I never drew it. I suppose the matchup would have looked a lot better with a nahiri
Round 1 vs infect
I killed his first dude game 1, he never saw another
G2 i killed 3 dudes but drew nothing but land all game, he 1 shots me on turn 7ish
G3 i kill his first 4 dudes, he concedes when nahiri comes down
1-0
Round 2 vs burn
G1 i drew less helix than he drew burn
G2 i drew more helix than he drew burn
G3 i drew more helix than he drew burn
2-0
Round 3 vs jund
G1 literally neither of us managed to find any way to win the game until like turn 15. I finally find a nahiri after resolving 3 AV.
G2 he sets up a fulminator mage - k command loop. I lose quickly after the 6th land is blown up
G3 was extremely tight and close, but i never actually drew a way to win the game, so eventually it goes to him
2-1
so this should be 1-2 right?
No, this was my first loss
Round 4 vs rw norin soul sisters
G1 he mulls to 4 keeps a no lander
G2 purphoros + that thing that spawns myr kills me
G3 same story
How do we beat this matchup?
Overall went 2-2. My biggest problem all tournament was struggling to find a way to win the game. Maybe i was just unlucky, but i managed to draw nahiri twice the entire tournament, and collonade's appeared to not want to be drawn either. Will be trying to squeeze a few more proactive cards in the deck
Good, Anakin, gooooood. We have a control list in tier 1 again. It can survive against aggressive decks like burn and zoo; hold off high synergy decks like affinity and elves; dismantle glass cannon strategies like infect and kiki-chord; and it can apply just enough pressure and maintain enough conservatism to outplay against other control decks like grixis.
Of course some fights aren't ideal, but the circle would be incomplete without bad match ups. You can't be the Ryu of the game and cover all your bases. (That's why sideboards exist)
It's called genesis chamber (no enchtantment by the way) and the whole deck get's killed by jace/anger/ staticcaster, pretty easy matchup since nahir can remove enchantments.
Went 3-1 with the list below last night against an oddly normal lineup of decks for my meta: Grixis Control (2-0) Bant Control (1-2) Merfolk (2-1) and Affinity (2-1).
The most interesting thing is that not once in all my matches did I even cast Nahiri, so I don't really know how to evaluate her at all in this build. Most games she was removed for sweepers or countermagic or Rabblemaster, and other times, there just wasn't an opportunity to cast or there was a better use of my mana. After playing the Emrakul build for a month, this Kiki/Resto build feels much better. Games aren't always going to time due to a lack of ability to close games. And it can actually win without Nahiri, but still have her as a backup plan or removal magnet. I also never won with the Kiki combo. Every win was with Resto beats + burn/snap, or the little Rabblemaster that could. It caught everyone off guard and most of the time and did some pretty good work game 2 on the play. It's probably not the best thing in the world, but it definitely brought back fond memories of my Jeskai Tokens days in Standard. If only I could find a way to work in Stoke the Flames into Modern...
Went 3-1 with the list below last night against an oddly normal lineup of decks for my meta: Grixis Control (2-0) Bant Control (1-2) Merfolk (2-1) and Affinity (2-1).
The most interesting thing is that not once in all my matches did I even cast Nahiri, so I don't really know how to evaluate her at all in this build. Most games she was removed for sweepers or countermagic or Rabblemaster, and other times, there just wasn't an opportunity to cast or there was a better use of my mana. After playing the Emrakul build for a month, this Kiki/Resto build feels much better. Games aren't always going to time due to a lack of ability to close games. And it can actually win without Nahiri, but still have her as a backup plan or removal magnet. I also never won with the Kiki combo. Every win was with Resto beats + burn/snap, or the little Rabblemaster that could. It caught everyone off guard and most of the time and did some pretty good work game 2 on the play. It's probably not the best thing in the world, but it definitely brought back fond memories of my Jeskai Tokens days in Standard. If only I could find a way to work in Stoke the Flames into Modern...
Yeah I think people forget that jeskai can still play a pretty mean flash game. Resto Angels + Snaps + Wall + Clique make for some good offense/defense action, while providing additional value along the way.
Interesting that you would remove a PW for sweepers since they go together like peanut butter and jelly, but I don't know the context of the decisions you were making so w/e.
Why Rabblemaster over something like Geist? They seem really similar, but Geist dodges removal. The token(s) left behind?
Also were you just trying out numbers for various spells just because? Or did you have thought process? I ask because the 3 Remand, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Cryptic, etc, etc seems sort of random. Were you just shaving for space to include the resto-kiki elements?
If you weren't that impressed with Nahiri then I think your build could justifiably go to 2, and maybe you include a P&K or something. Works good with resto or kiki, and is good defense/value in the midgame.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Went 3-1 with the list below last night against an oddly normal lineup of decks for my meta: Grixis Control (2-0) Bant Control (1-2) Merfolk (2-1) and Affinity (2-1).
The most interesting thing is that not once in all my matches did I even cast Nahiri, so I don't really know how to evaluate her at all in this build. Most games she was removed for sweepers or countermagic or Rabblemaster, and other times, there just wasn't an opportunity to cast or there was a better use of my mana. After playing the Emrakul build for a month, this Kiki/Resto build feels much better. Games aren't always going to time due to a lack of ability to close games. And it can actually win without Nahiri, but still have her as a backup plan or removal magnet. I also never won with the Kiki combo. Every win was with Resto beats + burn/snap, or the little Rabblemaster that could. It caught everyone off guard and most of the time and did some pretty good work game 2 on the play. It's probably not the best thing in the world, but it definitely brought back fond memories of my Jeskai Tokens days in Standard. If only I could find a way to work in Stoke the Flames into Modern...
Yeah I think people forget that jeskai can still play a pretty mean flash game. Resto Angels + Snaps + Wall + Clique make for some good offense/defense action, while providing additional value along the way.
Interesting that you would remove a PW for sweepers since they go together like peanut butter and jelly, but I don't know the context of the decisions you were making so w/e.
Why Rabblemaster over something like Geist? They seem really similar, but Geist dodges removal. The token(s) left behind?
Also were you just trying out numbers for various spells just because? Or did you have thought process? I ask because the 3 Remand, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Cryptic, etc, etc seems sort of random. Were you just shaving for space to include the resto-kiki elements?
If you weren't that impressed with Nahiri then I think your build could justifiably go to 2, and maybe you include a P&K or something. Works good with resto or kiki, and is good defense/value in the midgame.
Yeah mostly just experimenting and trying to fit things in. I wanted to dial back counters because my previous counter-heavy builds fall flat to a quickly developed board state. I think one of my Emrakul builds was running 3 Remand 3 Leak 2 Snare 2 Cryptic at one point.
- I cut Leak entirely because it gets unplayable by the late game and is really bad with Path.
- Between Path, Helix and Bolt, there is lots and lots of creature removal. Even having to double up on larger threats doesn't seem that bad with such density + snaps.
- The Remands are there to draw cards and buy time.
- Snare is one of my favorite counters and hits lots of relevant targets. I also have a foil and am a sucker for foils.
- Cryptic is difficult to cast with such a white and red commitment from other cards, but it's still good enough for 1.
- I take out Nahiri for sweepers because if I'm against a fast aggressive creature deck because killing their things does me more good than stranding a 4 mana PW in my hand or tapping out to play her when it doesn't win the game on the spot. I rarely found a scenario in which casting her was better than wall, resto, anger, bolt/helix/snap, etc. I'll win eventually with or without Nahiri if I exhaust their resources. Nahiri isn't fast like Twin was and I hated having to lean on her as a primary win con. Having her as the backup plan (and as Kiki 3-5 and Resto 4-6) felt much better and less one-dimensional.
- I love P&K, may replace Nahiri for 1. Does not work with Kiki tho.
- I have Geists, but they have to attack to get anything through. Rabble can sit back and generate value without suiciding into a large blocker. The tokens have to attack, but I also get new tokens every turn. Also, it's awesome to bolt an 0/4 (like a Spellskite) who just blocked your free 1/1.
I'm definitely getting a feel for this kind of build and I don't see too much of it. As an ex-Twin player, I'm just looking for a deck that can successfully attack at multiple angles and doesn't just instantly fold to certain matchups. Nahiri adds a wrinkle of complexity that the opponents have to deal with and Resto Angel beats are much more effective when combined with Snaps and Colonnades, rather than just Snap/Colo on their own. Plus there's the fear of combo in their minds, allowing these incremental beats to whittle them down. No individual part is necessarily amazing, but together offer a multi-faceted deck. And while it's definitely not Twin, it's the closest I've gotten so far in trying to replicate the style and feeling.
Hey guys, I'm testing out a harbinger build. i've always been a huge fan of extremely slow control builds, so UWR and Esper have always been my favorite archetypes.
The thing is, I've noticed online that most of the nahiri builds that are getting results don't run AV, and I feel like that's a real waste of potential since its such a good card. What are your guys' thoughts? Does the Harbinger deck just not need it? Is serum visions enough?
Hey guys, I'm testing out a harbinger build. i've always been a huge fan of extremely slow control builds, so UWR and Esper have always been my favorite archetypes.
The thing is, I've noticed online that most of the nahiri builds that are getting results don't run AV, and I feel like that's a real waste of potential since its such a good card. What are your guys' thoughts? Does the Harbinger deck just not need it? Is serum visions enough?
Depends on what you want to be doing. I like having higher individual card value and refilling my hand later. Serum Visions was fantastic in Twin because it replaced itself and allowed you to setup your next draws. But if almost all of your upcoming cards are live, you don't really need to scry them. Plus, between Nahiri herself and Desolate Lighthouse, you can loot away unneeded cards. It may not be correct, but in a deck that wants to play lots of answers and then refill, AV seems better than SV. SV is better if you are looking for a particular card and need it quickly (which is why it was more useful in dedicated combo decks like Twin). I am by no means an expert, but that's how my thoughts have panned out over the past month and a half.
Went 3-1 with the list below last night against an oddly normal lineup of decks for my meta: Grixis Control (2-0) Bant Control (1-2) Merfolk (2-1) and Affinity (2-1).
The most interesting thing is that not once in all my matches did I even cast Nahiri, so I don't really know how to evaluate her at all in this build. Most games she was removed for sweepers or countermagic or Rabblemaster, and other times, there just wasn't an opportunity to cast or there was a better use of my mana. After playing the Emrakul build for a month, this Kiki/Resto build feels much better. Games aren't always going to time due to a lack of ability to close games. And it can actually win without Nahiri, but still have her as a backup plan or removal magnet. I also never won with the Kiki combo. Every win was with Resto beats + burn/snap, or the little Rabblemaster that could. It caught everyone off guard and most of the time and did some pretty good work game 2 on the play. It's probably not the best thing in the world, but it definitely brought back fond memories of my Jeskai Tokens days in Standard. If only I could find a way to work in Stoke the Flames into Modern...
Went 3-1 with the list below last night against an oddly normal lineup of decks for my meta: Grixis Control (2-0) Bant Control (1-2) Merfolk (2-1) and Affinity (2-1).
The most interesting thing is that not once in all my matches did I even cast Nahiri, so I don't really know how to evaluate her at all in this build. Most games she was removed for sweepers or countermagic or Rabblemaster, and other times, there just wasn't an opportunity to cast or there was a better use of my mana. After playing the Emrakul build for a month, this Kiki/Resto build feels much better. Games aren't always going to time due to a lack of ability to close games. And it can actually win without Nahiri, but still have her as a backup plan or removal magnet. I also never won with the Kiki combo. Every win was with Resto beats + burn/snap, or the little Rabblemaster that could. It caught everyone off guard and most of the time and did some pretty good work game 2 on the play. It's probably not the best thing in the world, but it definitely brought back fond memories of my Jeskai Tokens days in Standard. If only I could find a way to work in Stoke the Flames into Modern...
Hi there - just curious - why play 2x Kiki if you play Nahiri? Also what advantages does Rabblemaster have over Geist of St Traft?
Just trying out numbers. If something happens to one, I still want to draw the other (Slaughter Games is a card...). As for Rabblemaster, I covered that a bit in my other posts, but basically, he makes an increasing number of tokens that can effectively attack into a board of x/1s, his tokens have haste the turn he comes down, they stay in play, growing in numbers every turn, and he doesn't have to suicide himself to generate tokens. Nothing feels worse than playing a Geist into a blocker.
Hi there - just curious - why play 2x Kiki if you play Nahiri? Also what advantages does Rabblemaster have over Geist of St Traft?
In a deck with only 5 main board counterspells, Nahiri isn't likely to stick around for long to ult, or even resolve often enough to make a cut to 1 Kiki a very good idea as it just makes the incidental combo worse overall. Though honestly imo playing Nahiri or Kiki combo separately would be better than as a fused deck. To each there own though.
As for Rabblemaster over Geist, his reasoning is probably due to the reasons he listed 2 posts down right here, but that's just a guess.
Hey guys, I'm testing out a harbinger build. i've always been a huge fan of extremely slow control builds, so UWR and Esper have always been my favorite archetypes.
The thing is, I've noticed online that most of the nahiri builds that are getting results don't run AV, and I feel like that's a real waste of potential since its such a good card. What are your guys' thoughts? Does the Harbinger deck just not need it? Is serum visions enough?
Then stick to esper uwr nahiri is no control deck.
If you want control in uwr go for zhe old collonade, sphinx's, snap build, playing nahiri won't give you what you're searching for, it's midrange not control.
Jeskai Nahiri most certainly is control. Running 4 copies of a planeswalker does not make it a midrange deck.
To be fair, its somewhat similar to twin, in that it only plays the control game as long as it needs to before it wins, which is often only around 8 or so turns.
Its a much faster, proactive control deck, but its definitely a step above midrange, even if that step is a small one.
I think it's fair to call it a midrange deck that plays a control role on almost every matchup, but we're probably just splitting hairs over things that don't matter.
A deck that looks to primarily win through a PW ultimate is most definitely a control deck. I think you could make the deck more midrange, such as the direction @cfusionpm is taking the deck; to add an even higher element of proactivity.
Each comes with its own advantages or disadvantages.
I think AV is a fine card for the deck. The problem is finding room for it, and whether the metagame you are expecting is accommodating. AV in itself is a slow card, no two ways about it. Paying a card and a mana for something that only provides dividends by the time many decks can kill you is a calculated risk.
I think playing AV in the main (in lieu of Serum) is giving your main deck a higher overall power level, but also a larger range of performance. So you trade consistency for power. Playing both seems to just take too much deck space.
@cfusionpm
Good call on the P&K and Kiki-combo; forgot about the non-legendary clause.
Yeah your numbers seemed kind of odd, but I also sort understood them. I've definitely also felt the strain between the RW requirements of the deck and a UUU cost of cryptic (some of my posts earlier were about a less punishing mana base). I still personally love to play with Clique (have 2 in the main) managing my colors in the early game is a large part of my decision making process. I'd be interested to hear how you end up tuning the numbers. Unfortunately I sold off my Kiki's during the Twin exodus so I won't be trying out the combo any time soon.
Rabblemaster definitely has the power level to compete in modern, and I think it was partially kept at bay due to twin (tapping out on turn 3 is asking to die).
Also if you are looking for something to try out to replace a Nahiri (if you decide to cut) is Goblin Dark Dweller. Since you are running AV it has the highest upside, and flashing in a resto on top is just bonkers.
Edit: I think another threat worth looking into is Young Pyromancer or Monastery Mentor. Both thrive in post board game where opponents board out removal, and you are boarding in more spells. I have no evidence of this at this point, but its a theory I am willing to try/defend.
The keranos dealing 9 damage for 5 mana is directly comparing your statement that keranos is like tiding drawing 3 cards over 3 turns. It's just the opposite side of the same coin.
Not really sure where the argument is going though. Keranos is pretty lackluster nowadays. Searching for it with Nahiri seems a very small advantage at best since you still need to cast it. At that point you might get the same, if not more, advantage by keeping Nahiri on the table filtering cards and destroying random permanents.
I think I might try out Inferno Titan the next time I play and see how it feels.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Round 1 vs infect
I killed his first dude game 1, he never saw another
G2 i killed 3 dudes but drew nothing but land all game, he 1 shots me on turn 7ish
G3 i kill his first 4 dudes, he concedes when nahiri comes down
1-0
Round 2 vs burn
G1 i drew less helix than he drew burn
G2 i drew more helix than he drew burn
G3 i drew more helix than he drew burn
2-0
Round 3 vs jund
G1 literally neither of us managed to find any way to win the game until like turn 15. I finally find a nahiri after resolving 3 AV.
G2 he sets up a fulminator mage - k command loop. I lose quickly after the 6th land is blown up
G3 was extremely tight and close, but i never actually drew a way to win the game, so eventually it goes to him
2-1
Round 4 vs rw norin soul sisters
G1 he mulls to 4 keeps a no lander
G2 purphoros + that thing that spawns myr kills me
G3 same story
How do we beat this matchup?
Overall went 2-2. My biggest problem all tournament was struggling to find a way to win the game. Maybe i was just unlucky, but i managed to draw nahiri twice the entire tournament, and collonade's appeared to not want to be drawn either. Will be trying to squeeze a few more proactive cards in the deck
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
The RW Norin match isn't very bad in my experience. Don't let them resolve bigger spells, and if you can, use Nahiri to kill Purphoros and their 2 cost enchantment that hits us whenever they play creatures (can't remember what it's called right now). Snipe any sisters on sight, because if they stick, they can drag the game on in their favor. This is just another match where you wanna play fast.
You know, I completely forgot about nahiri since I never drew it. I suppose the matchup would have looked a lot better with a nahiri
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Pretty generic, with a p&k main
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Of course some fights aren't ideal, but the circle would be incomplete without bad match ups. You can't be the Ryu of the game and cover all your bases. (That's why sideboards exist)
I was actually talking about Impact Tremors.
The most interesting thing is that not once in all my matches did I even cast Nahiri, so I don't really know how to evaluate her at all in this build. Most games she was removed for sweepers or countermagic or Rabblemaster, and other times, there just wasn't an opportunity to cast or there was a better use of my mana. After playing the Emrakul build for a month, this Kiki/Resto build feels much better. Games aren't always going to time due to a lack of ability to close games. And it can actually win without Nahiri, but still have her as a backup plan or removal magnet. I also never won with the Kiki combo. Every win was with Resto beats + burn/snap, or the little Rabblemaster that could. It caught everyone off guard and most of the time and did some pretty good work game 2 on the play. It's probably not the best thing in the world, but it definitely brought back fond memories of my Jeskai Tokens days in Standard. If only I could find a way to work in Stoke the Flames into Modern...
1x Cryptic Command
1x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix
3x Path to Exile
3x Remand
1x Spell Snare
Creature (12)
2x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3x Restoration Angel
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Wall of Omens
Planeswalker (3)
3x Nahiri, the Harbinger
Sorcery (4)
4x Ancestral Vision
1x Arid Mesa
1x Cascade Bluffs
3x Celestial Colonnade
1x Clifftop Retreat
1x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Flooded Strand
1x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
2x Sacred Foundry
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
1x Sulfur Falls
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Celestial Purge
2x Crumble to Dust
1x Dispel
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Goblin Rabblemaster
2x Negate
2x Stony Silence
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Wrath of God
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Yeah I think people forget that jeskai can still play a pretty mean flash game. Resto Angels + Snaps + Wall + Clique make for some good offense/defense action, while providing additional value along the way.
Interesting that you would remove a PW for sweepers since they go together like peanut butter and jelly, but I don't know the context of the decisions you were making so w/e.
Why Rabblemaster over something like Geist? They seem really similar, but Geist dodges removal. The token(s) left behind?
Also were you just trying out numbers for various spells just because? Or did you have thought process? I ask because the 3 Remand, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Cryptic, etc, etc seems sort of random. Were you just shaving for space to include the resto-kiki elements?
If you weren't that impressed with Nahiri then I think your build could justifiably go to 2, and maybe you include a P&K or something. Works good with resto or kiki, and is good defense/value in the midgame.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Yeah mostly just experimenting and trying to fit things in. I wanted to dial back counters because my previous counter-heavy builds fall flat to a quickly developed board state. I think one of my Emrakul builds was running 3 Remand 3 Leak 2 Snare 2 Cryptic at one point.
- I cut Leak entirely because it gets unplayable by the late game and is really bad with Path.
- Between Path, Helix and Bolt, there is lots and lots of creature removal. Even having to double up on larger threats doesn't seem that bad with such density + snaps.
- The Remands are there to draw cards and buy time.
- Snare is one of my favorite counters and hits lots of relevant targets. I also have a foil and am a sucker for foils.
- Cryptic is difficult to cast with such a white and red commitment from other cards, but it's still good enough for 1.
- I take out Nahiri for sweepers because if I'm against a fast aggressive creature deck because killing their things does me more good than stranding a 4 mana PW in my hand or tapping out to play her when it doesn't win the game on the spot. I rarely found a scenario in which casting her was better than wall, resto, anger, bolt/helix/snap, etc. I'll win eventually with or without Nahiri if I exhaust their resources. Nahiri isn't fast like Twin was and I hated having to lean on her as a primary win con. Having her as the backup plan (and as Kiki 3-5 and Resto 4-6) felt much better and less one-dimensional.
- I love P&K, may replace Nahiri for 1. Does not work with Kiki tho.
- I have Geists, but they have to attack to get anything through. Rabble can sit back and generate value without suiciding into a large blocker. The tokens have to attack, but I also get new tokens every turn. Also, it's awesome to bolt an 0/4 (like a Spellskite) who just blocked your free 1/1.
I'm definitely getting a feel for this kind of build and I don't see too much of it. As an ex-Twin player, I'm just looking for a deck that can successfully attack at multiple angles and doesn't just instantly fold to certain matchups. Nahiri adds a wrinkle of complexity that the opponents have to deal with and Resto Angel beats are much more effective when combined with Snaps and Colonnades, rather than just Snap/Colo on their own. Plus there's the fear of combo in their minds, allowing these incremental beats to whittle them down. No individual part is necessarily amazing, but together offer a multi-faceted deck. And while it's definitely not Twin, it's the closest I've gotten so far in trying to replicate the style and feeling.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
The thing is, I've noticed online that most of the nahiri builds that are getting results don't run AV, and I feel like that's a real waste of potential since its such a good card. What are your guys' thoughts? Does the Harbinger deck just not need it? Is serum visions enough?
Depends on what you want to be doing. I like having higher individual card value and refilling my hand later. Serum Visions was fantastic in Twin because it replaced itself and allowed you to setup your next draws. But if almost all of your upcoming cards are live, you don't really need to scry them. Plus, between Nahiri herself and Desolate Lighthouse, you can loot away unneeded cards. It may not be correct, but in a deck that wants to play lots of answers and then refill, AV seems better than SV. SV is better if you are looking for a particular card and need it quickly (which is why it was more useful in dedicated combo decks like Twin). I am by no means an expert, but that's how my thoughts have panned out over the past month and a half.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Hi there - just curious - why play 2x Kiki if you play Nahiri? Also what advantages does Rabblemaster have over Geist of St Traft?
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
Just trying out numbers. If something happens to one, I still want to draw the other (Slaughter Games is a card...). As for Rabblemaster, I covered that a bit in my other posts, but basically, he makes an increasing number of tokens that can effectively attack into a board of x/1s, his tokens have haste the turn he comes down, they stay in play, growing in numbers every turn, and he doesn't have to suicide himself to generate tokens. Nothing feels worse than playing a Geist into a blocker.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
In a deck with only 5 main board counterspells, Nahiri isn't likely to stick around for long to ult, or even resolve often enough to make a cut to 1 Kiki a very good idea as it just makes the incidental combo worse overall. Though honestly imo playing Nahiri or Kiki combo separately would be better than as a fused deck. To each there own though.
As for Rabblemaster over Geist, his reasoning is probably due to the reasons he listed 2 posts down right here, but that's just a guess.
Jeskai Nahiri most certainly is control. Running 4 copies of a planeswalker does not make it a midrange deck.
Its a much faster, proactive control deck, but its definitely a step above midrange, even if that step is a small one.
UW Control
UWR Geist
UWR Control
Each comes with its own advantages or disadvantages.
I think AV is a fine card for the deck. The problem is finding room for it, and whether the metagame you are expecting is accommodating. AV in itself is a slow card, no two ways about it. Paying a card and a mana for something that only provides dividends by the time many decks can kill you is a calculated risk.
I think playing AV in the main (in lieu of Serum) is giving your main deck a higher overall power level, but also a larger range of performance. So you trade consistency for power. Playing both seems to just take too much deck space.
@cfusionpm
Good call on the P&K and Kiki-combo; forgot about the non-legendary clause.
Yeah your numbers seemed kind of odd, but I also sort understood them. I've definitely also felt the strain between the RW requirements of the deck and a UUU cost of cryptic (some of my posts earlier were about a less punishing mana base). I still personally love to play with Clique (have 2 in the main) managing my colors in the early game is a large part of my decision making process. I'd be interested to hear how you end up tuning the numbers. Unfortunately I sold off my Kiki's during the Twin exodus so I won't be trying out the combo any time soon.
Rabblemaster definitely has the power level to compete in modern, and I think it was partially kept at bay due to twin (tapping out on turn 3 is asking to die).
Also if you are looking for something to try out to replace a Nahiri (if you decide to cut) is Goblin Dark Dweller. Since you are running AV it has the highest upside, and flashing in a resto on top is just bonkers.
Edit: I think another threat worth looking into is Young Pyromancer or Monastery Mentor. Both thrive in post board game where opponents board out removal, and you are boarding in more spells. I have no evidence of this at this point, but its a theory I am willing to try/defend.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)