If you run the Nahiri combo, don't run Ancestral Vision. Nahiri plans on winning the game on turn 6, which makes Ancestral Vision too slow. On top of that, you want to run Serum Visions to make sure you can land Nahiri turn 4, and generally AV and SV do not fill the same function, but do fill the same slot
If you run the Nahiri combo, don't run Ancestral Vision. Nahiri plans on winning the game on turn 6, which makes Ancestral Vision too slow. On top of that, you want to run Serum Visions to make sure you can land Nahiri turn 4, and generally AV and SV do not fill the same function, but do fill the same slot
They aren't mutually exclusive. But if you prefer to run Visions maindeck having a couples AV sideboard for grindy match-ups is a good option.
If you run the Nahiri combo, don't run Ancestral Vision. Nahiri plans on winning the game on turn 6, which makes Ancestral Vision too slow. On top of that, you want to run Serum Visions to make sure you can land Nahiri turn 4, and generally AV and SV do not fill the same function, but do fill the same slot
They aren't mutually exclusive. But if you prefer to run Visions maindeck having a couples AV sideboard for grindy match-ups is a good option.
Yeah, that could work. I've been trying out Nahiri again and the most difficult matchups tend to be other control decks, as it is so hard to resolve a 4 mana walker against them. AV in the side could definitely work there
I also might just move my Leyline of Sanctity to the mainboard, I board them in a lot. Not only does it protect you from discard but it makes it impossible to shoot burn at Nahiri
Not that Gruul Zoo is a difficult matchup by any means, but what's your play against their:
T1: Experiment One
T2: Burning-Tree Emissary
Snare/Leak the BTE or wait to Snare/Leak the follow-up Bushwhacker and try to 2-1 them with Clasm/The Gods, Anger of?
Imo leaking the BTW is the right play most of the time even if you have a anger in hand.
Snaring their BTW is a huge temposwing and you can still 2 or 3 for 1 them with anger later.
Might not be the right play allways though
Agreed. Always hit the tree. You also can't snare the follow up bushwhacker anyway
I think it's a mistake to not run either AV or SV. Your argument for not running them doesn't make much sense. It would be like a Legacy player saying "Yeah, I added two more lands so that I don't have to run Ponder anymore...got em!"
It's not that you have to run Av or SV, the point is that you get to!
I have to say I disagree with no SV as well. I can see your reasoning but you do not only need lands, you also need Nahiri, sometimes a second one if you get thoughtseized.
I would recommend trying to cut a Celestial Colonnade: the colonnade beatdown plan comes up much less often with Nahiri and it gives you more open mana options on turn 1.
What is the reasoning on running Wrath of God over Supreme Verdict?
On Jeff Hoogland's stream, he says he's much more worried about regen from decks like Elves than counterspells. Considering decks running counters don't tend to flood the board with fatties (outside of maybe Merfolk), I can see his point entirely.
If you run the Nahiri combo, don't run Ancestral Vision. Nahiri plans on winning the game on turn 6, which makes Ancestral Vision too slow. On top of that, you want to run Serum Visions to make sure you can land Nahiri turn 4, and generally AV and SV do not fill the same function, but do fill the same slot
Agree that should pick either SV or AV but I'm not sure that the Nahiri plan precludes playing AV.
In some spots we want to just drop Nahiri turn 4 and try to win on 6 but in others we want to stabilize more or just not tap out turn 4 (to hold up counters/removal or whatever).
Drawing 3 cards is huge in these latter scenarios, and even is quite useful if you go turn 4 Nahiri, then draw 3 on turn 5 to protect her until we find Emrakul turn 6.
On a somewhat related note, it seems that lists playing Nahiri are better off playing Anger of the Gods MD than Wrath/Verdict. This lets you curve Anger into Nahiri rather than sweeping then playing your finisher, essentially giving your opponent an extra turn and wasting one of your own mana.
The main issue Ive had with Nahiri is protecting her the turn you drop her. Creatures aren't that much of an issue, but she often dies to stuff like Maelstrom Pulse or double bolt. If I can play Nahiri and untap to get protection up, I generally win the game. There's two paths from there; either go all in on Nahiri and protect her with Spellskites, or slow down into a more controlling plan where you drop her turn 6 with mana up. Frankly, I'm not a fan of either of those options
What are anyone's thoughts on pitching Lingering Souls to Nahiri? It's a move that Abzan performs with Liliana to success. Additionally having one or two black fetch lands could let you run slaughter games in the sideboard to give a fighting chance against scapeshift.
I would say that what i like the most is the -2 in this shell: She exiles many of the problems we had with this deck Blood Moon, Choke, Leylines, RIP, Wild Defiance, Tarmos, Finks, Raveger... the list could go on and on...
Don't see AV that bad with her, you could use her +2 to get rid of it lategame, she acts as the 4th-5th loothouse.
What are anyone's thoughts on pitching Lingering Souls to Nahiri? It's a move that Abzan performs with Liliana to success. Additionally having one or two black fetch lands could let you run slaughter games in the sideboard to give a fighting chance against scapeshift.
Blood Moon, Choke, Leyline, etc. are rendered irrelevant by an attacking Emrakul.
Nahiri represents such a potent threat to end the game that using her as removal or a way to get 2 1/1s at a small discount is sort of a waste. When she hits the board, we're for the most part immediately assuming a beatdown role. All our resources should be allocated from that point forward towards activating her -8 and winning.
Using her as a control card will once in a while be necessary but our counters and removal are so efficient that I don't think we can justify playing a 4 mana sorcery speed card to serve that same function.
I would think best options from splashing black are Tasigur and Anguished Unmaking.
moving into another color, even for a small splash, means taking more damage from shocklands. i don't think this is a net gain in a metagame where burn is tier 1. not to mention the opportunity cost of lingering souls taking up slots that would otherwise be occupied.
im on board with serum visions and anger of the gods in nahiri lists. you want to curve into nahiri with a close to clear board, and ways to find nahiri.
i think a card worth considering in some numbers for the nahiri combo decks is Pact of Negation. It gives a method to protect nahiri the turn you play her.
id be interested to hear from those who tested about how often you are able to just drop nahiri on turn 4 (while in a good position).
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Honestly, I like 26 lands but I also like all my cheap counterspells. Any opinions?
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If tapping mana for Serum Visions is an issue, maybe we could run Anticipate?
Maybe we could set up some active testing group for the Nahiri combo, that'd be great. Maybe contact through Steam? I'm personally testing on cockatrice right now and trying to get a hold of Nahiris IRL
Honestly, I like 26 lands but I also like all my cheap counterspells. Any opinions?
IMO you lack wincons, I'd at least add one other planeswalker. I think 3 mainboard wraths are excessive, and you can probably get away with cutting one colorless land. I'd run more Electrolyzes, and my latest goto counter suit for Jeskai has been 3 Spell Snare, 3 Cryptic, 2 Remand, 1 Logic Knot. It has worked very well and I recommend it.
For your sideboard, you have too many sweepers. I also think Keranos is somewhat outdated now our Jund MU improved so much. I'd suggest some more anti-combo tech, specifically 2 Vendilion Cliques.
I'm not sure about the sideboard. Since there are more potential wincons than the usual burn suite in the deck perhaps running 2 condemn to complement the usual 3-4 path to exile wouldn't be a bad idea. Also Jace, Vryn's prodigy and Emrakul, the aeons torn wouldn't get along right?
From the 90% dead Kiki Control thread I hear you don't like anything about Kiki Jiki. However, it's still control so I'm gonna post some stuff about it briefly on here, as well as my other Jeskai Control lists.
I built it as a funny gimmick deck. Then it was a good funny gimmick deck. Brain in a Jar was very good, the scry ability was more relevant than I expected and made multiples on the field at once Ok. The mana saved from this was really good, the mana fixing it provided was crucial at times, and instant speed boardwipes are good. Lastly, you can abuse it with Beck//Call, which is sweet to pull off. The deck is pretty good, or at the very least, the idea.
This is a weird deck that's mostly untested. You always have cards in hand and things to do. Jace's Sanctum is a test card, though it felt good when I did use it since I'm trying to cast the many cards in my hand, and it makes them cheaper, with a handy scry.
This list has gone through a lot of testing and has done well. The Kiki Combo is good, but I'm a little heavy on 5 cmc. Goblin Dark Dwellers has been amazing, since you get Ancestral Vision, or any standard targets, and works well with Kiki. I run 3 Kiki because he's great with any creature in my deck, excluding the second Kiki. The list is much more "beat face" than most lists. I kill stuff and get in for damage while getting lots of value. As far as Kiki Combo vs Emrakul off of Nahiri, they both do win you the game. However, you can hard cast Kiki combo, unlike Emrakul, and Kiki has applications outside of Nahiri fetch.
An overall thought on Nahiri: She's amazing. Whether to run 2 or 3 will be debated, but I didn't particularly like 3 when I tested with it, although it may be correct.
An overall thought on Remand: Nahiri makes Remand 10x better. Stalling for an extra turn to plus Nahiri again is sweet.
An overall thought on Ancestral Vision vs Serum Visions: It hates Remand a lot. It takes forever to come off of suspend. You could be dead by the time it would. It's still an amazing card. If it resolves is can change a game. Drawing 3 cards for 1 mana is great. Serum Visions is great too. Both dig down three cards but Serum Visions does it immediately, so it tends to be a much better top deck once the game drags out. My big complaint about it is that it's not preordain. You don't get to see what card you're going to get, only what cards you can choose to get during your next turn. If you want an answer NOW, Serum Visions gives you one chance, where having resolved a Ancestral Vision at ANY point gives you three chances. Goblin Dark Dwellers makes Ancestral Vision go way over the top though.
-going long and dropping Nahiri at leisure instead of trying to ult her asap works better
-Remand is really good with Nahiri but just isn't that good in the current meta
-For the first time in a long while I actually really like Mana Leak, as Nahiri lets you discard later copies
-I'm still torn on AV versus SV
-combo decks still turn out to be the most awkward matchup as Nahiri is much slower than they are and very awkward to cast
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T1: Experiment One
T2: Burning-Tree Emissary
Snare/Leak the BTE or wait to Snare/Leak the follow-up Bushwhacker and try to 2-1 them with Clasm/The Gods, Anger of?
They aren't mutually exclusive. But if you prefer to run Visions maindeck having a couples AV sideboard for grindy match-ups is a good option.
Yeah, that could work. I've been trying out Nahiri again and the most difficult matchups tend to be other control decks, as it is so hard to resolve a 4 mana walker against them. AV in the side could definitely work there
I also might just move my Leyline of Sanctity to the mainboard, I board them in a lot. Not only does it protect you from discard but it makes it impossible to shoot burn at Nahiri
Agreed. Always hit the tree. You also can't snare the follow up bushwhacker anyway
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
It's not that you have to run Av or SV, the point is that you get to!
I would recommend trying to cut a Celestial Colonnade: the colonnade beatdown plan comes up much less often with Nahiri and it gives you more open mana options on turn 1.
On Jeff Hoogland's stream, he says he's much more worried about regen from decks like Elves than counterspells. Considering decks running counters don't tend to flood the board with fatties (outside of maybe Merfolk), I can see his point entirely.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Agree that should pick either SV or AV but I'm not sure that the Nahiri plan precludes playing AV.
In some spots we want to just drop Nahiri turn 4 and try to win on 6 but in others we want to stabilize more or just not tap out turn 4 (to hold up counters/removal or whatever).
Drawing 3 cards is huge in these latter scenarios, and even is quite useful if you go turn 4 Nahiri, then draw 3 on turn 5 to protect her until we find Emrakul turn 6.
On a somewhat related note, it seems that lists playing Nahiri are better off playing Anger of the Gods MD than Wrath/Verdict. This lets you curve Anger into Nahiri rather than sweeping then playing your finisher, essentially giving your opponent an extra turn and wasting one of your own mana.
Blood Moon, Choke, Leyline, etc. are rendered irrelevant by an attacking Emrakul.
Nahiri represents such a potent threat to end the game that using her as removal or a way to get 2 1/1s at a small discount is sort of a waste. When she hits the board, we're for the most part immediately assuming a beatdown role. All our resources should be allocated from that point forward towards activating her -8 and winning.
Using her as a control card will once in a while be necessary but our counters and removal are so efficient that I don't think we can justify playing a 4 mana sorcery speed card to serve that same function.
I would think best options from splashing black are Tasigur and Anguished Unmaking.
im on board with serum visions and anger of the gods in nahiri lists. you want to curve into nahiri with a close to clear board, and ways to find nahiri.
i think a card worth considering in some numbers for the nahiri combo decks is Pact of Negation. It gives a method to protect nahiri the turn you play her.
id be interested to hear from those who tested about how often you are able to just drop nahiri on turn 4 (while in a good position).
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)4 Snapcaster Mage
Spells (29):
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
2 Cryptic Command
1 Electrolyze
3 Lightning Helix
3 Mana Leak
1 Logic Knot
3 Spell Snare
1 Sphinx’s Revelation
1 Elspeth, Sun’s Champion
Lands (26):
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Celestial Colonnade
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Crumble to Dust
2 Stony Silence
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Counterflux
1 Wear / Tear
1 Keranos, God of Storms
Thoughts? Current things I'm contemplating:
-1 Logic Knot
-1 Mana Leak OR -1 Land OR -1 Spell Snare
+2 Remand
Honestly, I like 26 lands but I also like all my cheap counterspells. Any opinions?
How's your Tron matchup been?
Maybe we could set up some active testing group for the Nahiri combo, that'd be great. Maybe contact through Steam? I'm personally testing on cockatrice right now and trying to get a hold of Nahiris IRL
IMO you lack wincons, I'd at least add one other planeswalker. I think 3 mainboard wraths are excessive, and you can probably get away with cutting one colorless land. I'd run more Electrolyzes, and my latest goto counter suit for Jeskai has been 3 Spell Snare, 3 Cryptic, 2 Remand, 1 Logic Knot. It has worked very well and I recommend it.
For your sideboard, you have too many sweepers. I also think Keranos is somewhat outdated now our Jund MU improved so much. I'd suggest some more anti-combo tech, specifically 2 Vendilion Cliques.
3x Celestial Colonnade
1x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Flooded Strand
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Nahiri, the Harbinger
Instant (20)
2x Cryptic Command
1x Electrolyze
1x Izzet Charm
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix
3x Path to Exile
4x Remand
1x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Thing in the Ice
1x Vendilion Clique
Sorcery (4)
4x Serum Visions
I'm not sure about the sideboard. Since there are more potential wincons than the usual burn suite in the deck perhaps running 2 condemn to complement the usual 3-4 path to exile wouldn't be a bad idea. Also Jace, Vryn's prodigy and Emrakul, the aeons torn wouldn't get along right?
My Jeskai Control Lists:
Jeskai Brain Control http://deckbox.org/sets/1405401
I built it as a funny gimmick deck. Then it was a good funny gimmick deck. Brain in a Jar was very good, the scry ability was more relevant than I expected and made multiples on the field at once Ok. The mana saved from this was really good, the mana fixing it provided was crucial at times, and instant speed boardwipes are good. Lastly, you can abuse it with Beck//Call, which is sweet to pull off. The deck is pretty good, or at the very least, the idea.
Jeskai Cantrip Control http://deckbox.org/sets/1405971
This is a weird deck that's mostly untested. You always have cards in hand and things to do. Jace's Sanctum is a test card, though it felt good when I did use it since I'm trying to cast the many cards in my hand, and it makes them cheaper, with a handy scry.
The hated Jeskai Kiki Control http://deckbox.org/sets/1392395
This list has gone through a lot of testing and has done well. The Kiki Combo is good, but I'm a little heavy on 5 cmc. Goblin Dark Dwellers has been amazing, since you get Ancestral Vision, or any standard targets, and works well with Kiki. I run 3 Kiki because he's great with any creature in my deck, excluding the second Kiki. The list is much more "beat face" than most lists. I kill stuff and get in for damage while getting lots of value. As far as Kiki Combo vs Emrakul off of Nahiri, they both do win you the game. However, you can hard cast Kiki combo, unlike Emrakul, and Kiki has applications outside of Nahiri fetch.
An overall thought on Nahiri: She's amazing. Whether to run 2 or 3 will be debated, but I didn't particularly like 3 when I tested with it, although it may be correct.
An overall thought on Remand: Nahiri makes Remand 10x better. Stalling for an extra turn to plus Nahiri again is sweet.
An overall thought on Ancestral Vision vs Serum Visions: It hates Remand a lot. It takes forever to come off of suspend. You could be dead by the time it would. It's still an amazing card. If it resolves is can change a game. Drawing 3 cards for 1 mana is great. Serum Visions is great too. Both dig down three cards but Serum Visions does it immediately, so it tends to be a much better top deck once the game drags out. My big complaint about it is that it's not preordain. You don't get to see what card you're going to get, only what cards you can choose to get during your next turn. If you want an answer NOW, Serum Visions gives you one chance, where having resolved a Ancestral Vision at ANY point gives you three chances. Goblin Dark Dwellers makes Ancestral Vision go way over the top though.
-going long and dropping Nahiri at leisure instead of trying to ult her asap works better
-Remand is really good with Nahiri but just isn't that good in the current meta
-For the first time in a long while I actually really like Mana Leak, as Nahiri lets you discard later copies
-I'm still torn on AV versus SV
-combo decks still turn out to be the most awkward matchup as Nahiri is much slower than they are and very awkward to cast