MTG Salvation

Thinking of running 2 dark dwellers main and two avacyn side. Dwellers is only lackluster against control and combo, where Avacyn's flash shines. It also allows you a bigger threat density post board in control mirrors. Any thoughts?

Quote from Serentropic »

I've finally started taking Jeskai to tournaments. I'm having a really rough time in the combo matches, but I'm learning a lot I think.

most of the combo matches are really tough for control because of the lack of threats and if they run boseju it's even tougher...

meddling mage is really good but it's hard to run more than 1 but if your meta runs a lot of ad naus/living end/grishoalbrand/storm then it's going to be your best card agains them... clique's are good and i have been running two mb....

in regards to electrolyze... it's really only good against infect and affinity but it's really good against them... it's also good against most blue based decks...

there aren't too many other decks running x/1s...you have mana dorks in the coco decks but you usually want to hit them early earlier than waiting turn 3.... against zoo or burn and most other decks you're trading tempo for card advantage which you don't want to be doing against them... against jund it's great against a confidant and you don't mind the tempo loss there... but against burn you do not want to see it...

i moved down to 1 personally....

Quote from tilzinger »

Are you trolling everyone? I can't really tell because this logic makes no sense to me at all. Lyze is only good for picking off dorks, it's no where near a replacement for a full board wipe. 4 Lyze instead of Verdict against an Eldrazi or Zoo deck seems like a great idea!

I wonder when this thread became so toxic.

You just named 2 nonexistent decks. I don't know which logical fallacy that falls under, but I'm sure it's somewhere. As far as the actual decks people are playing and you need Supreme Verdict against, they basically consist of dorks that make Bolt and Path worse. Since you seem to be offended by the thought of cutting Verdict, here's the most recent list Shaun McLaren played:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32772_Video-Jeskai-Control-In-Modern.html

He's not trolling, either.

Would someone mind posting that Shaun McLaren list for those of us that don't have premium?

Quote from sdownie »

Would someone mind posting that Shaun McLaren list for those of us that don't have premium?

After the games he ran he indicated that Dark Dwellers wasn't performing; I'd expect him to cut the card in the future.

I think his list is a bit counter heavy. 2 Path seems sparse for the current modern meta. His list really doesn't take advantage of GDD. He could replace one with Clique, up his Path count and lower some number of counters.

As much as I like Shaun McLaren, I feel like he tends to make decks that are a bit outlandish. IMO, his best deck was the innovation with Kiki Control, and that was as much a good meta call as it was good deck building (for what it's worth, I'm hesitant to try Kiki with AV now, as I think that's too many potential dead cards to be drawing). He always jams a lot of Electrolyze and likes to cut Path- I remember that deck he played at Worlds that was basically Delverless Delver, which did nothing until he lost. I don't think he's the best example for a standard list, but I like to see how he's not afraid to twist and stress the deck to find new innovations. Hard Jeskai Control seems to do best when it runs 2-3 solid bombs, and if Shaun says GDD isn't pulling its weight in that slot, I'm inclined to believe him. I'm also curious to see him on 26 lands and the playset of Tec Edge. That feels a bit slow to me, both in terms of drawing land, and being able to kill problem lands.

Running 2 Path definitely seems wrong. I do like the high Elyze count, though.

Peoples thoughts on DLO has a wincon?
I haven't seen it much in a while, but its still one of my favorites. Not having flash like avacyn is definitely a con, but pseudo hexproof and anticipating every time you connect is quite strong.

Ojutai? He's not that good. Partial hexproof, so he still dies to a lot. Doesn't ensure a win like Keranos would. Doesn't stabilise the board immediately like Elspeth. Cannot deal with corner cases like Gideon. Ojutai seems not good enough.

I guess I'm just wondering because its been working just fine for me. I have elspeth sideboarded, and I've never loved keranos. The fact that he digs (often into burn) means he tends to end games pretty quickly. With slayers' stronghold/minamo, hes pretty resilient as well.

Quote from Cody_X »

I guess I'm just wondering because its been working just fine for me. I have elspeth sideboarded, and I've never loved keranos. The fact that he digs (often into burn) means he tends to end games pretty quickly. With slayers' stronghold/minamo, hes pretty resilient as well.

Depends on your manabase. If you are running the untap legend land then DLO can be very good but to be honest this type of deck generally doesn't need "big cards" like DLO. The burn is usually enough. I agree with you, Keranos is very lackluster. If you like DLO and want to build around him a bit I think he can be effective.

Just played this fun one at LGS friday. Fun for sure, possibly good?



100% instant speed. 100% fun. 50% maybe good. I went 4-0 but that's just FNM. Thoughts?

Interesting take on a creature flash variant. 4x Spellstutter is really interesting, typically you only see the card in faeries decks running bitter blossom or other faerie enablers. I like the mutavault synergy you included.

Seems more tempo/burn rather than a truly controling strategy. The 4x Remand fits perfectly into that.

I dunno how you feel about your colored mana, but I would consider cutting a Colonnade for another mutavault (or just another untapped dual land). You clearly have another gameplan to win, and having the full suite of colonnades isn't needed as much as other lists.

On another note I haven't been impressed with Keranos for quite some time. Typically you needed it as a resilient win con against grindy decks (BGx); however with AV in our arsenal I feel like it isn't as needed anymore. Elspeth Suns Champion just seems better in almost every scenario.

I'm concerned with the low amount of card draw that the deck has. Game 1 your only card drawers are 'lyze and command (sometimes clique and snapcaster). Was the recycling of snappy (via angel/venser/cloaker) enough to keep the gas tank full? What kinds of deck did you 4-0 against... I can't imagine this keeping up with the 2-for-1 decks like Jund or Grixis.

Ancestral visions isn't really where I want to be. I don't know what you really mean by low card draw, I guess I don't have a lot of literal "card draw" but just about every card in this deck replaces itself somehow, aside from bolt helix path. The reason I don't want Visions is partly because a playset is $150+, partly because it doesn't fit my all flash theme, partly because I don't even need it really with all of my card advantage, and partly because topdecking it is a pain (Not to say top-decking a remand or spellstutter sprite ISN'T a pain, I just rather limit my bad top decks.)

The decks I played against were-

UWR Kiki Control (I was just able to stay ahead in tempo, Kiki control seems to be a really good matchup, they are too sorcery speed to interact favorably. An interesting interaction, Teferi counters Ancestral Visions, because they can't cast it because it is during their upkeep.)

Jund (a little harder, but I was able to counter his Lilianas which is really the only card that UWR can't handle. Besides that, I just remove the Bobs and Scoozes with bolts or counter them with Sprites, and Tarmo gets countered, or bounced or pathed. Cryptic Command is obviously really good here, and Remand shines as well.

Some green aggro deck (Just free win for anyone who has been matched up against a mono green deck as UWR player in modern)

Abzan Company( This one was really fun, It was back and forth, and I eventually built up an airforce while keeping his board relatively clean with removal and counters. He dies slowly then Colonnades finish him off. Radiant Flames is good after board, I would like Anger of the Gods more but in past experience with that card I always seem to only have 1 red when I want to cast anger. Wrath of God and Supreme Verdict also after board means I just have lots of ways to keep the board clean, eventually climb up in card advantage and hit him down with flyers and colonnades etc. )

Well, maybe it's just me, but I like to build my control decks so I can draw 20+ cards. For example, in the deck i'm currently piloting online, I have 4 visions, 2 think twice, and 1 sphinx's rev, that i typically play at x=4 (until that point, i rely on the TT and the visions to carry me, SR is a finisher of sorts). That is 12+4+4=20 extra cards. Then, of course, the usual cantrips (4x cryptic, some number of electrolyzes, although I'm testing a list without them now, 2x remands). So that puts the count up to 26. And, finally, 4x snappy for recursion (though this isn't "draw", in the sense that if you need to dig into a card, snappy can't really get it unless you flashback a command or a remand). So my deck runs 26 extra cards, and a virtual 30.

In your deck, in the main, I see 2 cryptics (worth an extra card each, assuming you always choose "draw a card"), 2 electrolyze, and 4 remands. That is 8 extra cards. If you assume that snappy always flashes back a cantrip, and that angel always flickers snappy to get you another cantrip, you are up to a virtual 15 (8+4+3) extra cards. You could stretch that a bit if you assume Venser and cloaker pick up snappy to reset him and get another cantrip (though that seems very mana intensive), and/or if you always clique yourself for extra card quality. Still, you barely get to +20 cards. This is the sense in which it seems your card draw is a bit low. I get that you don't want visions (though, visions being cmc=1, fits pretty well in a flash deck, giving you something to do turn 1, and netting you cards "for free" after you used up your hand), but there are other ways to up your card drawing in jeskai (revelation, think twice and Blue Sun's Zenith come to mind as the usual options).

Of cours,e this comes down to deckbuilding philosophy/style. It seems you held your own vs some grindy decks like Abzan CoCo and Jund, so maybe this isn't such a big problem. Finally: i agree with angre: exiling all the finks/redcap nonesense seems very attractive, but RR for anger, UUU for cryptic, and WW for wrath of god seems too greedy, even for modern (unless you deal a ton of damage to yourself!).

I know it's significantly worse than it is in legacy, but Venser, Shaper Savant is such an awesome card that I want to test.

Quote from Draw_Gone »

Well, maybe it's just me, but I like to build my control decks so I can draw 20+ cards. For example, in the deck i'm currently piloting online, I have 4 visions, 2 think twice, and 1 sphinx's rev, that i typically play at x=4 (until that point, i rely on the TT and the visions to carry me, SR is a finisher of sorts). That is 12+4+4=20 extra cards. Then, of course, the usual cantrips (4x cryptic, some number of electrolyzes, although I'm testing a list without them now, 2x remands). So that puts the count up to 26. And, finally, 4x snappy for recursion (though this isn't "draw", in the sense that if you need to dig into a card, snappy can't really get it unless you flashback a command or a remand). So my deck runs 26 extra cards, and a virtual 30.

In your deck, in the main, I see 2 cryptics (worth an extra card each, assuming you always choose "draw a card"), 2 electrolyze, and 4 remands. That is 8 extra cards. If you assume that snappy always flashes back a cantrip, and that angel always flickers snappy to get you another cantrip, you are up to a virtual 15 (8+4+3) extra cards. You could stretch that a bit if you assume Venser and cloaker pick up snappy to reset him and get another cantrip (though that seems very mana intensive), and/or if you always clique yourself for extra card quality. Still, you barely get to +20 cards. This is the sense in which it seems your card draw is a bit low. I get that you don't want visions (though, visions being cmc=1, fits pretty well in a flash deck, giving you something to do turn 1, and netting you cards "for free" after you used up your hand), but there are other ways to up your card drawing in jeskai (revelation, think twice and Blue Sun's Zenith come to mind as the usual options).

Of cours,e this comes down to deckbuilding philosophy/style. It seems you held your own vs some grindy decks like Abzan CoCo and Jund, so maybe this isn't such a big problem. Finally: i agree with angre: exiling all the finks/redcap nonesense seems very attractive, but RR for anger, UUU for cryptic, and WW for wrath of god seems too greedy, even for modern (unless you deal a ton of damage to yourself!).

While raw card advantage is one of the most important aspects of magic strategies; there is also tempo, virtual card advantage, etc.

Literally counting all the cards you could draw means nothing if you never get to play them. Controlling versions of the deck play more lands than aggressive decks, not to mention are playing less efficient and situational spells; so a single card from the top of your deck is functionally less than a card from most opponents.

Burn, zoo, infect, affinity prey on these decks because they are playing literally twice the number of spells as you, at which point the cards you have are worthless because you cant deploy them fast enough.

Jamming as much card draw as you mentioned doesn't make sense unless you expect to play nothing but midrange grind fests and control mirrors. 4 AVs is more than enough.

There is a reason that "ill just draw a bunch of cards and answer everything" decks haven't had a place in modern since...well forever.