I'm on something similar but I haven't been super impressed with P&K. It's just really awkward to have to tap out or low to cast a 4 drop on your turn with this deck, and there's no K Command recursion upside. I also found room for 2 Think Twice and 2 Shadow of Doubt and am loving it.
That's interesting. I've found Mom and Pop to be pretty impressive, especially when combined with Resto. Affinity and Infect have a very hard time beating it, and the chip shot damage extends your burn reach. I do love playing Think Twice, and it also makes Rev significantly better. Shadow of Doubt will always hold a special place in my heart, but I can't picture playing it in a Lightning Helix deck due to the mana constraints. Mind posting your list?
I never get to blink P&K. They typically just use whatever removal they've been holding since turn 1 on it.
My only changes MB would be Logic Knot. That card is annoying in our deck and Negate almost always is better. I would cut them, put in a 3rd Remand and a 3rd Electrolyze. Path is even a card we can seriously consider cutting to 3 now as well. As for the SB, I don't like the Elspeth , tami, and RiP. I would have a Keranos in the side, if not main. He is great. Shadow of Doubt could probably be something with a broader field of usefulness, but it's a meta call I suppose.
Missed the notification for this. Thanks for the feedback. Getting an extra Remand and/or Electrolyze into the main does sound very appealing.
Logic knot has over performed for me in this and other lists. People will jam very good spells while holding open 3 mana just to get Knotted. It admittedly can cause problems with the turn 2 UU on occasion and if you have nothing in the yard turn 2 it is awful, but It has helped me more than hurt me so far. I do like the idea of more remand and electrolyze though so cutting at least 1 may still be right even with how good Knot has been.
The 1/1 main/side Shadow of Doubt split has also been nice because sometimes its just stone rain + draw a card, and we have 6+ slots that let our opponents tutor so its never truly awful. It is a bit of a meta call but I think I would still confidently roll with a main board Shadow of Doubt into any meta where I might reasonably expect fetch lands or expedition maps. I also think the sideboard (Edit: said main board) RiP has enough utility to justify as a 1x. Wins against Goryo's, Grixis anything, turns off persist and persist related shenanigans etc. Nothing super amazing but a lot of fringe benefits and I happen to have a few of those decks in my area.
The Tamiyo and Elspeth are definitely still in a testing period and I agree. Elspeth is supposed to land and take over any grindy matchup, BGx in particular, but like another user said 6 is still a lot and maybe just too much. I think a Keranos or something similar may indeed still be best for this role. Tamiyo I'm also very iffy about because she generates a lot value every turn she is on the board but she can also just be too little too late.
How many sweepers are you running in the 75? I think in the current meta, 2 main wouldn't be bad.
I haven't actually played control much since the twin ban, how are the matchups shaking up? I remember in the past GBx is tough, but winnable, especially if you run restos and put the pressure on. I have had ups and downs with merfolk, and I know Tron is tough, but again, helped by resto. Affinity, burn, and infect can go either way depending on the draw. I haven't played an eldrazi deck yet. Is it terrible? What are we poorly positioned against right now?
Don't play sweepers in the main. UWR already has access to a ton of spot removal, so against most creature decks, you won't need it. If you draw it against a combo deck, it's a complete blank. It's fine out of the side for the matchups where it's actually good (Merolk, CoCo decks, etc.), and that's where it belongs.
As for bad matchups, big mana decks have inevitability so game one is awful unless you have a miracle draw or they fall on their face. Jund is a great matchup, but Junk is not. Thankfully traditional Junk looks unplayable right now. Decks that are further on the control spectrum like UW or Blue Moon will be next to impossible to beat, but are not popular at all. I'd say that Affinity, Burn and Infect should all be extremely favorable matchups in our favor, with Burn probably being closest of the 3 at 60/40 our favor. If you lose a round to Affinity or Infect with this deck and you had even remotely decent draws, you should probably sell your Snapcaster Mages.
I actually disagree. We do run a lot of spot removal, but if you are 1 for 1ing your opponent, often times you are going to lose steam. Control really wants card advantage more than most, and sweepers, even when being a 2-1 are great. It also sometimes slows your opponent down so they aren't playing in to a sweeper, which also is valuable.
Edit: In regards to it being blank vs combo, without twin, combo isn't as represented, and I feel like there are more creature decks than combo (at least in my local meta). The only time sweepers feel bad to me are vs tron.
Not playing sweepers is bad advice. You should certainly have atleast one mainboard, no exceptions. If you don't play any in the 75, that's even worse.
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I think the issue here is how you guys view what this deck is supposed to be. The way that most of the current lists are constructed could be best described as 'midrange', not true control. You just want to interact early to disrupt what your opponent is trying to do, and then turn the corner to fly over them with Angels and Colonnades to outrace them to the finish. You're not looking to kill everything forever and then slowly beat them with something inevitable and hard to interact with like Nephalia Drownyard. If you 'are' looking for that sort of deck, UW or Esper colors are far more conducive to eternal 2-for-1s and unbeatable win conditions.
Tl;dr - Why do you play Lightning Bolt in your 'control' deck? It's not because you're trying to control the board forever.
If you're going to play sweepers in the main, you need to rework the creature base. Play Wall of Omens to force your opponent to overextend into Verdicts, otherwise a smart player will be patient and you'll never get your 2 for 1. You also probably don't want to play expensive creatures that commit to the board like PKN, since it goes against the grain of what you're trying to accomplish. You also need to rework the spell base to forgo tempo based cards like Remand and focus on the long game with things like Think Twice and more Sphinx's Revelation. Finally, you'll want to play more planeswalkers, since they force the opponent to pressure them with creatures, resulting in the one-sided blowouts that you're looking for while leaving the walker behind.
Really, you'd be best served by keeping them in the board though
I think the issue here is how you guys view what this deck is supposed to be. The way that most of the current lists are constructed could be best described as 'midrange', not true control. You just want to interact early to disrupt what your opponent is trying to do, and then turn the corner to fly over them with Angels and Colonnades to outrace them to the finish. You're not looking to kill everything forever and then slowly beat them with something inevitable and hard to interact with like Nephalia Drownyard. If you 'are' looking for that sort of deck, UW or Esper colors are far more conducive to eternal 2-for-1s and unbeatable win conditions.
Tl;dr - Why do you play Lightning Bolt in your 'control' deck? It's not because you're trying to control the board forever.
If you're going to play sweepers in the main, you need to rework the creature base. Play Wall of Omens to force your opponent to overextend into Verdicts, otherwise a smart player will be patient and you'll never get your 2 for 1. You also probably don't want to play expensive creatures that commit to the board like PKN, since it goes against the grain of what you're trying to accomplish. You also need to rework the spell base to forgo tempo based cards like Remand and focus on the long game with things like Think Twice and more Sphinx's Revelation. Finally, you'll want to play more planeswalkers, since they force the opponent to pressure them with creatures, resulting in the one-sided blowouts that you're looking for while leaving the walker behind.
Really, you'd be best served by keeping them in the board though
I really like this mindset a lot. Say I were to go with this advice, omitting more creatures in exchange for more board wipes and Planeswalkers... From there, I'd like to ask which Planeswalkers make for the most effective bombs, and should cards like Ghostly Prison be considered mainboard-able in such a goal? Should anywhere near 4 Verdicts be considered? I ask, because I too come from the Twin camp and am looking for the best place to continue from. I personally hate the idea of using the nauseatingly slow, glass skinned Kiki as a replacement, so I'm totally all in for this style of deck.
Wall of Omens is mostly interchangeable with Lightning Helix. They fill the same function: blanking aggro. The only difference is that Helix can close the game out, whilst Wall of Omens draws you cards.
I think the issue here is how you guys view what this deck is supposed to be. The way that most of the current lists are constructed could be best described as 'midrange', not true control. You just want to interact early to disrupt what your opponent is trying to do, and then turn the corner to fly over them with Angels and Colonnades to outrace them to the finish. You're not looking to kill everything forever and then slowly beat them with something inevitable and hard to interact with like Nephalia Drownyard. If you 'are' looking for that sort of deck, UW or Esper colors are far more conducive to eternal 2-for-1s and unbeatable win conditions.
Tl;dr - Why do you play Lightning Bolt in your 'control' deck? It's not because you're trying to control the board forever.
If you're going to play sweepers in the main, you need to rework the creature base.
While I can't say if that particular build you commented about not using sweepers is good advice or bad (my gut says they can main board some sweepers if they position themselves to be stronger after a reset but that would take playtesting).
I feel like your equating control with prison control tho, which is kind of right and wrong at the same time. I mean its obvious that UW will be able to generate more of a prison (besides the lists that are beginning to be really heavily leaning toward midrange). However the more bare bones 4-6 creature builds with plainswalkers are still more grindy and control than 90% of the field. UWR strength in my opinion is just to disrupt for so long that the tide turns at some point at which point you play your threats and kill I'd say colonnade is literally 75% of my kills when playing a strictly UWR control build however that doesnt really mean its midrange.
Now the builds that have been posted here for a while:
4 Angels
4 snaps
2 Pia
2 Cliques
+ plainswalker
This doesnt look like UWR control anymore, its midrange anytime you get Pia + resto in the mainboard you are UWR midrange, the UWR midrange thread is buzzing with the exact same build.
Tried out uwr kiki control at fnm last night, beat burn and affinity, lost to jund and big naya zoo (knight, smiter, etc). Kind of makes me want to just go full control with 4 snaps and an ajani vengeant or two. Especially against jund, they would just strip my hand with discard, so I would be just left with random creatures that didn't really do anything, then they would just slam their stuff and kill me. I only got the combo off once, feels like you need to go up to three kiki-jiki, mirror breaker or just don't do it at all, or just have more card draw in the deck. Just feels too inconsistence to warrant filling up slots in the deck.
Same impression here...
Just i guess Kiki make us better in some MU like tron, maybe? Boogle?
I mean some game they just go to up in life...i guess?
Some thouhgt here? Why choose kiki over classic control?
Kiki plays well with all the other dorks in the deck so is pretty much always value. It helps close out games either with the combo or simply by boosting the value we get from Snaps, Walls, Cliques, etc. Right now I am running 2 x Kicks in my deck for the finish. There have been a couple of times when I've been lucky enough to be able to go over the top of an Abzan Company player's Arbitrarily large life total, so that it one reason I favour Kicks over Keranos or a PW -- both of which I would agree are more traditional control options.
I've been lurking here for the past 20 pages or so looking for insights and have a few observations.
1) People who go 4 Bolt/3 P2E need to rethink that split. Ive seen it a couple of times and can only assume you aren't running afoul of too many Thought Knot Seers or Ulamogs. I hate giving my oppo land too, but there are just so many fatties floating around right now that you have to kill.
2) How the control deck finishes the game is irrelevant. I could see an argument that 3 x Kicks and a crapload of search makes it more all-in on the combo, but a pair of Kicks in the same slots you currently play Keranos or Ajani is not worth whining about. And since the current metagame is really, really bad for control decks having a way to close out a game in a turn is not a bad thing. There are lots and lots of ways to build a control deck and all are worth consideration. You can play tapout with no counters, all instants where you use a lot of counters, or a middle of the road variant with some counters, some board presence and some way to win fast. Control, by it's nature, will always give a competent player a chance to win. Sadly, the current meta has no place for the good old all out control decks. Once upon a time I used to counter, force and plow everything and win with Kjeldoran Outpost tokens or Millstone. You simply can't do that anymore as someone will drop Emrakul on your ass. Inevitability now lies with the non-control player and you have to switch from being passive to being active far earlier than we used to. You may have the stamina and skill to play three games per round over a 10 round day and always squeak out the win. If so, then I hope you crush on the PT. But overall, the Jeskai control builds that will have the most success, will be the ones that can finish a bit faster and be resilient to the odd punt. I strongly believe that the best Jeskai Control build currently runs Kicks, but I don't for one second think opposing opinions are valueless. I want to hear all those opinions. I want to hear how people hope to survive the early turns of the decks that go under with super aggro, and the later turns of the decks that go over the top with nonsensical size. Hopefully I'll get that here.
3) Super interested to hear how Tamiyo is working out for the people trying it in the board. Right now I am running a Teferi in that slot, giving me an edge in control match-ups (the few I see) but also a 4-toughness body for the creature decks. Also trying out 1 x Glen-Elendra Archmage in the Cryptic slot. So far results are mixed.
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Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
I see your point about needing a way to close a game in one turn, which is why I went to the kiki build in the first place (coming from twin). I guess for the pure control versions, you would have 4 GQ (which I think you can get away with), an Ajani Vengeant or two, and in the sideboard have a crucible of worlds and a couple crumble to dusts. The plan vs tron and eldrazi will be to slow them down with counterspells, and hope to be able to land a crumble to dust or a crucible or worlds (crumble to dust being significantly less impactful vs eldrazi I imagine), or just keep their lands tapped with ajani and ultimate.
I think no matter what version you play, you are going to have a good game vs burn, affinity, infect, and merfolk. Which is really huge right now. The biggest question now is the tron/eldrazi matchups, and having enough bombs in sideboard (Keranos, Elspeth, etc) to be able to win the grindy games like Jund, Junk and Grixis control
Tried out uwr kiki control at fnm last night, beat burn and affinity, lost to jund and big naya zoo (knight, smiter, etc). Kind of makes me want to just go full control with 4 snaps and an ajani vengeant or two. Especially against jund, they would just strip my hand with discard, so I would be just left with random creatures that didn't really do anything, then they would just slam their stuff and kill me. I only got the combo off once, feels like you need to go up to three kiki-jiki, mirror breaker or just don't do it at all, or just have more card draw in the deck. Just feels too inconsistence to warrant filling up slots in the deck.
Straight UWR Control is better against Burn, Affinity and Jund than Kiki. I haven't really played against Big Naya Zoo, but I would assume that Kiki would be better here, but probably not worth running altogether because of how it makes Jund a lot worse.
I've seen others mention this, but I'm now seeing that card draw/selection is sometimes a big problem with this deck. For instance I played the mirror match on Cockatrice last night and the game went really long... 10-12 turns or so. I didn't see a single counter spell. I run 10 total. How can I go that long in a game and not see a counter? My opponent cast Revelation for 5 and I couldn't do ***** about it.
Has Serum Visions worked well for anyone else even when running the control/non-combo build? I feel like I need to have a more proactive way to draw cards I need instead of relying on top decks. I've also had a couple games where I was stuck on 3 lands for a couple of turns.
This is what I'm playing with now. Shadow and Logic Knot are kind of pet cards of mine. Main deck Seas are for Eldrazi and Tron matchups. Not sure what to cut to get 4 Serum Visions in there. I suppose I could cut the Shadow, Seas, and Rev to get 4 Visions in. It really sucks drawing the wrong half of the deck.
What is the preferred mana denial plan for this deck? Spreading Seas, Molten Rain, or Crumble to Dust? Seas comes down quicker and can trips. Rain can be flashed back with Snap and contribute to the burn plan. Dust is slower, but to the point.
I've seen others mention this, but I'm now seeing that card draw/selection is sometimes a big problem with this deck. For instance I played the mirror match on Cockatrice last night and the game went really long... 10-12 turns or so. I didn't see a single counter spell. I run 10 total. How can I go that long in a game and not see a counter? My opponent cast Revelation for 5 and I couldn't do ***** about it.
Has Serum Visions worked well for anyone else even when running the control/non-combo build? I feel like I need to have a more proactive way to draw cards I need instead of relying on top decks. I've also had a couple games where I was stuck on 3 lands for a couple of turns.
This is what I'm playing with now. Shadow and Logic Knot are kind of pet cards of mine. Main deck Seas are for Eldrazi and Tron matchups. Not sure what to cut to get 4 Serum Visions in there. I suppose I could cut the Shadow, Seas, and Rev to get 4 Visions in. It really sucks drawing the wrong half of the deck.
What is the preferred mana denial plan for this deck? Spreading Seas, Molten Rain, or Crumble to Dust? Seas comes down quicker and can trips. Rain can be flashed back with Snap and contribute to the burn plan. Dust is slower, but to the point.
With 25 lands, you should safely be able to run just 2 Serum Visions. Or, you could cut down to 24 lands, and go for 3. Coming from Twin, trust me, you really don't need all 4 Visions. I think it's a common misconception, because sometimes you really want to be drawing your answers and not waste time digging for them. I am personally on 24 lands, 3 Visions, and it's been pretty great.
If you're running the kikki, play serums, if you're running a control plan, play think twice. Control you just want more cards, kikki, you want specific cards.
As for which mana denial cards, it really comes down to preference. Each is viable, and has its own ups and downs.
I've seen others mention this, but I'm now seeing that card draw/selection is sometimes a big problem with this deck. For instance I played the mirror match on Cockatrice last night and the game went really long... 10-12 turns or so. I didn't see a single counter spell. I run 10 total. How can I go that long in a game and not see a counter? My opponent cast Revelation for 5 and I couldn't do ***** about it.
Has Serum Visions worked well for anyone else even when running the control/non-combo build? I feel like I need to have a more proactive way to draw cards I need instead of relying on top decks. I've also had a couple games where I was stuck on 3 lands for a couple of turns.
This is what I'm playing with now. Shadow and Logic Knot are kind of pet cards of mine. Main deck Seas are for Eldrazi and Tron matchups. Not sure what to cut to get 4 Serum Visions in there. I suppose I could cut the Shadow, Seas, and Rev to get 4 Visions in. It really sucks drawing the wrong half of the deck.
Variance. Sometimes you get games where you draw everything wrong.
For card draw, I run 2 Think Twice, 4 Electrolzye (not counting Cryptics or Remands) and a Rev. If you really like drawing cards, consider Tidings over Rev. Shadow of Doubt is usually a worse Think Twice, but the occasional fetch snipe it quite fun, or the Path of Doubt combo. I very rarely run into card draw problems, but perhaps that's a difference in our playstyles.
Not sure how I feel about the 2 Cliques. They look like they'd be better as Wall of Omens of you want to draw more. Wall of Omens is a literal wall against aggro, and draws you a card, so it could be exactly what you're looking for. Spreading Seas is not particularly good mainboard, since you could end up playing against any number of decks that just don't care about it. It hits some decks, but I don't that is adequate justification for a mainboard card. If you cut them and the 2 Cliques, 4 Wall of Omens would serve you well.
I think the IQ list was on to something, though I'd like to slow it down slightly (Spell Pierce in the main? Come on now). Despite the best Dispel deck in the format leaving, Cryptic Command might be a bit too slow right now; maybe if Jund comes back, it will make it back in. Cutting it makes the mana much better and gives you access to Blood Moon in the board, which pushes me over the edge to playing Spreading Seas in the main. Seas is maindeck hate for Tron, kills manlands, is basically a cantripping Sinkhole against Burn that can cut them off cards in their hand, and just generally looks much better now that Twin is gone. It's not a mistake that half the top 4 of the Atlanta Classic was on Merfolk; Spreading Seas is a messed up card right now.
Sadly, the board feels pretty tight right now, so it's hard to make space for Crumble to Dust. I guess I'll just hope that abundant countermagic and some moderate disruption will get the job done.
Hey Guys,
yesterday I was a bit bored and since you can play everything on xMage what ever you want I played UWR Control and man oh man that was fun. I took the list above cut most of all creatures added some wraths and planswalker.
Comming form a blue tron background its so much fun to play a deck with LB and Helix.
Since I started learning the deck ab bit any tipps? Are there any videos from a current meta which I can watch or even streams? I have been seeing no much people stream the deck.
What is the general opionion on a more burn variant cut the walker win through beats burn with a big Fireball finish? My goal beening here to play as few creatures as possible to make mb wraths better. Probbly not that competive, but I am searching for a draw go stlye of deck.
Thx for all tipps
cheers dF
There are some UWR videos, but nothing really great that's come out since twin banning. Best thing to do would probably go back 20 or so pages and skim through and read stuff in between there and this page. Lots of talk on how we play this deck.
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I never get to blink P&K. They typically just use whatever removal they've been holding since turn 1 on it.
Current (very speculative) list:
4 Path to Exile
1 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Helix
2 Remand
3 Mana Leak
2 Electrolyze
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Think Twice
2 Shadow of Doubt
2 Cryptic Command
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Restoration Angel
1 Ajani Vengeant
3 Celestial Colonnade
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Desolate Lighthouse
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
I'm missing a Colonnade, but it would probably replace the Arid Mesa.
Missed the notification for this. Thanks for the feedback. Getting an extra Remand and/or Electrolyze into the main does sound very appealing.
Logic knot has over performed for me in this and other lists. People will jam very good spells while holding open 3 mana just to get Knotted. It admittedly can cause problems with the turn 2 UU on occasion and if you have nothing in the yard turn 2 it is awful, but It has helped me more than hurt me so far. I do like the idea of more remand and electrolyze though so cutting at least 1 may still be right even with how good Knot has been.
The 1/1 main/side Shadow of Doubt split has also been nice because sometimes its just stone rain + draw a card, and we have 6+ slots that let our opponents tutor so its never truly awful. It is a bit of a meta call but I think I would still confidently roll with a main board Shadow of Doubt into any meta where I might reasonably expect fetch lands or expedition maps. I also think the sideboard (Edit: said main board) RiP has enough utility to justify as a 1x. Wins against Goryo's, Grixis anything, turns off persist and persist related shenanigans etc. Nothing super amazing but a lot of fringe benefits and I happen to have a few of those decks in my area.
The Tamiyo and Elspeth are definitely still in a testing period and I agree. Elspeth is supposed to land and take over any grindy matchup, BGx in particular, but like another user said 6 is still a lot and maybe just too much. I think a Keranos or something similar may indeed still be best for this role. Tamiyo I'm also very iffy about because she generates a lot value every turn she is on the board but she can also just be too little too late.
I actually disagree. We do run a lot of spot removal, but if you are 1 for 1ing your opponent, often times you are going to lose steam. Control really wants card advantage more than most, and sweepers, even when being a 2-1 are great. It also sometimes slows your opponent down so they aren't playing in to a sweeper, which also is valuable.
Edit: In regards to it being blank vs combo, without twin, combo isn't as represented, and I feel like there are more creature decks than combo (at least in my local meta). The only time sweepers feel bad to me are vs tron.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
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"In response.. Mana Leak?"
"Every game loss is due to your inability to interact with your opponent"
Tl;dr - Why do you play Lightning Bolt in your 'control' deck? It's not because you're trying to control the board forever.
If you're going to play sweepers in the main, you need to rework the creature base. Play Wall of Omens to force your opponent to overextend into Verdicts, otherwise a smart player will be patient and you'll never get your 2 for 1. You also probably don't want to play expensive creatures that commit to the board like PKN, since it goes against the grain of what you're trying to accomplish. You also need to rework the spell base to forgo tempo based cards like Remand and focus on the long game with things like Think Twice and more Sphinx's Revelation. Finally, you'll want to play more planeswalkers, since they force the opponent to pressure them with creatures, resulting in the one-sided blowouts that you're looking for while leaving the walker behind.
Really, you'd be best served by keeping them in the board though
I really like this mindset a lot. Say I were to go with this advice, omitting more creatures in exchange for more board wipes and Planeswalkers... From there, I'd like to ask which Planeswalkers make for the most effective bombs, and should cards like Ghostly Prison be considered mainboard-able in such a goal? Should anywhere near 4 Verdicts be considered? I ask, because I too come from the Twin camp and am looking for the best place to continue from. I personally hate the idea of using the nauseatingly slow, glass skinned Kiki as a replacement, so I'm totally all in for this style of deck.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
While I can't say if that particular build you commented about not using sweepers is good advice or bad (my gut says they can main board some sweepers if they position themselves to be stronger after a reset but that would take playtesting).
I feel like your equating control with prison control tho, which is kind of right and wrong at the same time. I mean its obvious that UW will be able to generate more of a prison (besides the lists that are beginning to be really heavily leaning toward midrange). However the more bare bones 4-6 creature builds with plainswalkers are still more grindy and control than 90% of the field. UWR strength in my opinion is just to disrupt for so long that the tide turns at some point at which point you play your threats and kill I'd say colonnade is literally 75% of my kills when playing a strictly UWR control build however that doesnt really mean its midrange.
Now the builds that have been posted here for a while:
4 Angels
4 snaps
2 Pia
2 Cliques
+ plainswalker
This doesnt look like UWR control anymore, its midrange anytime you get Pia + resto in the mainboard you are UWR midrange, the UWR midrange thread is buzzing with the exact same build.
GWBoglesGW///URDelverUR WVial-knightsW
Just i guess Kiki make us better in some MU like tron, maybe? Boogle?
I mean some game they just go to up in life...i guess?
Some thouhgt here? Why choose kiki over classic control?
UWR Control/Midrange/Delver
UWR TwinMiss youGBWJunk (still semi-budget; 3 tarmo only)
GWAura Hexproof
GWHatebears
Kiki plays well with all the other dorks in the deck so is pretty much always value. It helps close out games either with the combo or simply by boosting the value we get from Snaps, Walls, Cliques, etc. Right now I am running 2 x Kicks in my deck for the finish. There have been a couple of times when I've been lucky enough to be able to go over the top of an Abzan Company player's Arbitrarily large life total, so that it one reason I favour Kicks over Keranos or a PW -- both of which I would agree are more traditional control options.
I've been lurking here for the past 20 pages or so looking for insights and have a few observations.
1) People who go 4 Bolt/3 P2E need to rethink that split. Ive seen it a couple of times and can only assume you aren't running afoul of too many Thought Knot Seers or Ulamogs. I hate giving my oppo land too, but there are just so many fatties floating around right now that you have to kill.
2) How the control deck finishes the game is irrelevant. I could see an argument that 3 x Kicks and a crapload of search makes it more all-in on the combo, but a pair of Kicks in the same slots you currently play Keranos or Ajani is not worth whining about. And since the current metagame is really, really bad for control decks having a way to close out a game in a turn is not a bad thing. There are lots and lots of ways to build a control deck and all are worth consideration. You can play tapout with no counters, all instants where you use a lot of counters, or a middle of the road variant with some counters, some board presence and some way to win fast. Control, by it's nature, will always give a competent player a chance to win. Sadly, the current meta has no place for the good old all out control decks. Once upon a time I used to counter, force and plow everything and win with Kjeldoran Outpost tokens or Millstone. You simply can't do that anymore as someone will drop Emrakul on your ass. Inevitability now lies with the non-control player and you have to switch from being passive to being active far earlier than we used to. You may have the stamina and skill to play three games per round over a 10 round day and always squeak out the win. If so, then I hope you crush on the PT. But overall, the Jeskai control builds that will have the most success, will be the ones that can finish a bit faster and be resilient to the odd punt. I strongly believe that the best Jeskai Control build currently runs Kicks, but I don't for one second think opposing opinions are valueless. I want to hear all those opinions. I want to hear how people hope to survive the early turns of the decks that go under with super aggro, and the later turns of the decks that go over the top with nonsensical size. Hopefully I'll get that here.
3) Super interested to hear how Tamiyo is working out for the people trying it in the board. Right now I am running a Teferi in that slot, giving me an edge in control match-ups (the few I see) but also a 4-toughness body for the creature decks. Also trying out 1 x Glen-Elendra Archmage in the Cryptic slot. So far results are mixed.
I think no matter what version you play, you are going to have a good game vs burn, affinity, infect, and merfolk. Which is really huge right now. The biggest question now is the tron/eldrazi matchups, and having enough bombs in sideboard (Keranos, Elspeth, etc) to be able to win the grindy games like Jund, Junk and Grixis control
Straight UWR Control is better against Burn, Affinity and Jund than Kiki. I haven't really played against Big Naya Zoo, but I would assume that Kiki would be better here, but probably not worth running altogether because of how it makes Jund a lot worse.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
Has Serum Visions worked well for anyone else even when running the control/non-combo build? I feel like I need to have a more proactive way to draw cards I need instead of relying on top decks. I've also had a couple games where I was stuck on 3 lands for a couple of turns.
This is what I'm playing with now. Shadow and Logic Knot are kind of pet cards of mine. Main deck Seas are for Eldrazi and Tron matchups. Not sure what to cut to get 4 Serum Visions in there. I suppose I could cut the Shadow, Seas, and Rev to get 4 Visions in. It really sucks drawing the wrong half of the deck.
1 Dispel
1 Logic Knot
2 Mana Leak
3 Remand
1 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
3 Restoration Angel
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Shadow of Doubt
2 Spreading Seas
25 Lands
What is the preferred mana denial plan for this deck? Spreading Seas, Molten Rain, or Crumble to Dust? Seas comes down quicker and can trips. Rain can be flashed back with Snap and contribute to the burn plan. Dust is slower, but to the point.
With 25 lands, you should safely be able to run just 2 Serum Visions. Or, you could cut down to 24 lands, and go for 3. Coming from Twin, trust me, you really don't need all 4 Visions. I think it's a common misconception, because sometimes you really want to be drawing your answers and not waste time digging for them. I am personally on 24 lands, 3 Visions, and it's been pretty great.
As for which mana denial cards, it really comes down to preference. Each is viable, and has its own ups and downs.
Signature by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery Signatures
"In response.. Mana Leak?"
"Every game loss is due to your inability to interact with your opponent"
Variance. Sometimes you get games where you draw everything wrong.
For card draw, I run 2 Think Twice, 4 Electrolzye (not counting Cryptics or Remands) and a Rev. If you really like drawing cards, consider Tidings over Rev. Shadow of Doubt is usually a worse Think Twice, but the occasional fetch snipe it quite fun, or the Path of Doubt combo. I very rarely run into card draw problems, but perhaps that's a difference in our playstyles.
Not sure how I feel about the 2 Cliques. They look like they'd be better as Wall of Omens of you want to draw more. Wall of Omens is a literal wall against aggro, and draws you a card, so it could be exactly what you're looking for. Spreading Seas is not particularly good mainboard, since you could end up playing against any number of decks that just don't care about it. It hits some decks, but I don't that is adequate justification for a mainboard card. If you cut them and the 2 Cliques, 4 Wall of Omens would serve you well.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
There are some UWR videos, but nothing really great that's come out since twin banning. Best thing to do would probably go back 20 or so pages and skim through and read stuff in between there and this page. Lots of talk on how we play this deck.
Signature by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery Signatures
"In response.. Mana Leak?"
"Every game loss is due to your inability to interact with your opponent"