Compare Phoenix decklist to Horford. He took out Emrakul and hangarback. 1 more pyrite spell bomb. 1 more engineered explosives. No more 1 of Mishra bauble. Basically all into graveyard combo I think.
I think this is strong against death shadow. The Grove of burn willows to protect against death shadow, or burn them away with super pyrite spell bomb?
Guttural response ? When to side in for what spell ?
Also note the 4 mindstones. I wonder how often he used it to even draw a card?
Coo
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Was an old School Blue Player during Revised. Now I play modern.
GreenTron, Aggro Burn, Devoted Company Variants, and Off Meta Brewer
Whenever sideboarding you cut some number of stars, mind stone, and dead cards like EE or a single retriever
Guttural comes in vs blue counters but some slight nonbo with defense grid
Mind Stone is one of the best mana rocks since it has CMC 2, so with trawler it gets back a Star, unlike Everflowing Chalice. If you watched his coverage matches he popped it to draw a card many times during his combo turns. Otherwise it's good enough to just accelerate into KCI.
Okay that was totally awesome. The commentators were saying KCI and VigorTitan were complicated not easy to play decks. Magic has such complicated lines in a very diverse meta. It requires a lot of knowledge to run even Affinity let alone knowledge or experience playing KCI trawler combo.
After watching the video. I think the mindstones are key to the quick combo. The deck is not afraid of Relic of Progenitus. After watchign the deck in action I think Ancient stirrings is so OP along with Engineered explosives dealing with pretty much anything and then use it to get 2 mana - which is far far better than hangarback. Puts this iteration much much better. The mind stones fundamentally play better than my Tronlands concept - I know - and plays much better in preparations for a dampening sphere environment.
Matt Nass deck doesn't need Emrakul as Myr Retriever basically does the same thing. All in on the graveyard combo is fine because after sideboards he has access to 4 nature's claims.
The deck is also very consistent. So long term deck stability with Ancient stirrings and chromatic - or terrion first turns gets a good card cycle. I think this is the way to do the deck. Also the Ghirapur Aether Grid - this card out of sideboard is so much better than walking ballista. It can take down so many dark confidants or planeswalkers? It can go 20+ in combo mode - right? More so, it is recursive 2-3 damage every turn without graveyard use.
What else? Man the deck is fast. Mox opal is so solid with engineered explosives that I think there is no need for Mishra Bauble not even a 1 of since speed is of utmost importance.
So what type of decks can beat Matt Nass deck? Other than stony silence and dampening sphere, which decks have the advantage? Lots and lots of discard? Does Blue control hold this deck down. Just counter the Krark-Clan? Hence the gutteral response? If anything it will truly test how good the opponents plays in response to this proactive deck. What about a deck that has lots of path to exile. Would that work?
It's probably inferior to Pyrite Spellbomb loops but it's certainly quicker, especially on MTGO. Fully on board with the two myr retriever it is just so much easier to get a loop going.
Anyone else try lodestone golem in the board to combat storm? I'm currently on the just go off before them plan but there are two storm players at my LGS now and looking into ways to hedge against them. ~10-15 players a night. Getting down Lodestone on turn three and then comboing on 4 seems like it would work.
RW Blaze Commando Soldier Swarm BW Edgewalker Clerics i.e. All the prevention R Ogre Menial (Fallen Feromancer) Tunnelin' Infectors GB Shaman of the Pack Elves URReclusive Artificer Artifact Control GBCatacomb Sifter Sac-Attack
Tiny Leader Decks
WU Geist of Saint Traft WKembha's Cats WRG Marath Slide Control
I'm pretty sure I understand the "loop", just wondering if anyone has already explained it in previous pages? If not, is someone able to run through the required steps that should suffice for a demonstrated loop?
Anyone else try lodestone golem in the board to combat storm? I'm currently on the just go off before them plan but there are two storm players at my LGS now and looking into ways to hedge against them. ~10-15 players a night. Getting down Lodestone on turn three and then comboing on 4 seems like it would work.
Vs storm, isn't Damping Sphere just going to be the best thing we can do? It's an artifact which can be sac'd (eventually) and slows them WAY down on turn 2-? until KCI has the chance to get it's pieces together. Just a thought, at least.
RW Blaze Commando Soldier Swarm BW Edgewalker Clerics i.e. All the prevention R Ogre Menial (Fallen Feromancer) Tunnelin' Infectors GB Shaman of the Pack Elves URReclusive Artificer Artifact Control GBCatacomb Sifter Sac-Attack
Tiny Leader Decks
WU Geist of Saint Traft WKembha's Cats WRG Marath Slide Control
I'm pretty sure I understand the "loop", just wondering if anyone has already explained it in previous pages? If not, is someone able to run through the required steps that should suffice for a demonstrated loop?
Sorry didn't see your earlier post. Check out the link here:
RW Blaze Commando Soldier Swarm BW Edgewalker Clerics i.e. All the prevention R Ogre Menial (Fallen Feromancer) Tunnelin' Infectors GB Shaman of the Pack Elves URReclusive Artificer Artifact Control GBCatacomb Sifter Sac-Attack
Tiny Leader Decks
WU Geist of Saint Traft WKembha's Cats WRG Marath Slide Control
I saw a few pages back that the deck doesnt really want any more 4cmc cards other than KCI but have people thought about looping in something like Goblin Boom Keg, Pierce Strider, Frogmite or even a Hedron Archive? Is it the 4-drop that we would want to look for or a 3-drop?
To that point, why not Sculpting Steel?
All of those are win more. Sculpting Steel is the closest to being playable. It almost guarantees you never fizzle but doesn't get you closer if you are missing a piece. ie. Boom Keg is a spell bomb that isn't as returnable. The rest only work once you have the loop going. Granted it's the same as my Resevoir suggestion, I'm purely running that to reduce the clicks on MTGO. They do nothing until you are winning.
Alternative win conditions like Santum of Ugin, hangarback, Emrakul package take the deck in a similar but different direction.
RW Blaze Commando Soldier Swarm BW Edgewalker Clerics i.e. All the prevention R Ogre Menial (Fallen Feromancer) Tunnelin' Infectors GB Shaman of the Pack Elves URReclusive Artificer Artifact Control GBCatacomb Sifter Sac-Attack
Tiny Leader Decks
WU Geist of Saint Traft WKembha's Cats WRG Marath Slide Control
It's probably inferior to Pyrite Spellbomb loops but it's certainly quicker, especially on MTGO. Fully on board with the two myr retriever it is just so much easier to get a loop going.
Anyone else try lodestone golem in the board to combat storm? I'm currently on the just go off before them plan but there are two storm players at my LGS now and looking into ways to hedge against them. ~10-15 players a night. Getting down Lodestone on turn three and then comboing on 4 seems like it would work.
Ethersworn canonist is only 2 casting cost.. that might work ?
[quote from="ottosmagic13 »" url="/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/combo/219904-ironworks-combo?comment=900"]
Ethersword canonist is only 2 casting cost.. that might work ?
That might work better. I was worried about the white casting cost but it shouldn't be a problem with the chromatic sticks. I'll have to give it a shot.
RW Blaze Commando Soldier Swarm BW Edgewalker Clerics i.e. All the prevention R Ogre Menial (Fallen Feromancer) Tunnelin' Infectors GB Shaman of the Pack Elves URReclusive Artificer Artifact Control GBCatacomb Sifter Sac-Attack
Tiny Leader Decks
WU Geist of Saint Traft WKembha's Cats WRG Marath Slide Control
As we prepare for a dampening sphere environment. My thought is either play more nature's claim fight the hate.
Or the lodestone golem, scrap tralwer, wurmcoil kind of bash like an eldrazi Tron type deck - isn't bad.
I wonder how the meta will shift? Overall the format is slowing down and burn, zoo, aggro poison are not seen as much - they go more alpha strike - all in type decks. Affinity is still going alright. So artifact hate will still be 4-8 in most sideboards. KCI will continue to deal with hate. Dampening sphere to slow down Cheerios too.
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Was an old School Blue Player during Revised. Now I play modern.
GreenTron, Aggro Burn, Devoted Company Variants, and Off Meta Brewer
Watching the win-and-in for GP Hartford (Time Walk edition https://www.twitch.tv/videos/250633784?t=08h00m00s) makes me wonder if 1x spellbomb should just be 1x grapeshot (or Bitter Ordeal )? I get that during the combo a single grapeshot doesnt do anything, but it could also end the game much earlier than trying to explain the "loop" and then playing it out to someone that's going to make you grind it out.
As for more Nature's Claim style effects, I was thinking Natural State is probably ok enough to include 1-3 of.? It hits all but the Leylines that are relevant hate to this deck. Maybe even Fragmentize?
Watching the win-and-in for GP Hartford (Time Walk edition https://www.twitch.tv/videos/250633784?t=08h00m00s) makes me wonder if 1x spellbomb should just be 1x grapeshot (or Bitter Ordeal )? I get that during the combo a single grapeshot doesnt do anything, but it could also end the game much earlier than trying to explain the "loop" and then playing it out to someone that's going to make you grind it out.
As for more Nature's Claim style effects, I was thinking Natural State is probably ok enough to include 1-3 of.? It hits all but the Leylines that are relevant hate to this deck. Maybe even Fragmentize?
That is exactly why I run AetherFlux Reservoir it's less clicks on MTGO and in paper you can demonstrate the loop once and basically pick a life total with some quick math and then dome them for how ever much you need.*
In paper magic as long as you can demonstrate one iteration of the loop you can shortcut that loop for a set amount of iterations. If your opponent says "play it out" then call a judge, demonstrate the loop, and they'll back you up.
MTGO? Get good at the clicks and stacking of triggers. Most opponents will scoop because they want to move on to the next game. Some will make you kill them...
RW Blaze Commando Soldier Swarm BW Edgewalker Clerics i.e. All the prevention R Ogre Menial (Fallen Feromancer) Tunnelin' Infectors GB Shaman of the Pack Elves URReclusive Artificer Artifact Control GBCatacomb Sifter Sac-Attack
Tiny Leader Decks
WU Geist of Saint Traft WKembha's Cats WRG Marath Slide Control
[quote from="ottosmagic13 »" url="/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/combo/219904-ironworks-combo?comment=911"]
That is exactly why I run AetherFlux Reservoir it's less clicks on MTGO and in paper you can demonstrate the loop once and basically pick a life total with some quick math and then dome them for how ever much you need.*
/quote]
Yeah, I feel one Reservoir is nearly required on MODO. I've gotten a LOT of kills with less than 30 seconds left thanks to it. I wouldn't have been able to recur Spellbomb enough times quickly enough. I just sub out one EE for it.
For playing vs KCI, I have a hard time choosing between countering or let KCI resolve then shatter. If resolved, how likely does it fizzle? I know with scrawler+kci, it almost cannot fizzle. If only 3-4 artifacts in play, can you just let kci resolve and just pray they don't go off?
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Compare Phoenix decklist to Horford. He took out Emrakul and hangarback. 1 more pyrite spell bomb. 1 more engineered explosives. No more 1 of Mishra bauble. Basically all into graveyard combo I think.
I think this is strong against death shadow. The Grove of burn willows to protect against death shadow, or burn them away with super pyrite spell bomb?
Guttural response ? When to side in for what spell ?
Also note the 4 mindstones. I wonder how often he used it to even draw a card?
Coo
GreenTron, Aggro Burn, Devoted Company Variants, and Off Meta Brewer
Guttural comes in vs blue counters but some slight nonbo with defense grid
Mind Stone is one of the best mana rocks since it has CMC 2, so with trawler it gets back a Star, unlike Everflowing Chalice. If you watched his coverage matches he popped it to draw a card many times during his combo turns. Otherwise it's good enough to just accelerate into KCI.
GreenTron, Aggro Burn, Devoted Company Variants, and Off Meta Brewer
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/250633784
After watching the video. I think the mindstones are key to the quick combo. The deck is not afraid of Relic of Progenitus. After watchign the deck in action I think Ancient stirrings is so OP along with Engineered explosives dealing with pretty much anything and then use it to get 2 mana - which is far far better than hangarback. Puts this iteration much much better. The mind stones fundamentally play better than my Tronlands concept - I know - and plays much better in preparations for a dampening sphere environment.
Matt Nass deck doesn't need Emrakul as Myr Retriever basically does the same thing. All in on the graveyard combo is fine because after sideboards he has access to 4 nature's claims.
The deck is also very consistent. So long term deck stability with Ancient stirrings and chromatic - or terrion first turns gets a good card cycle. I think this is the way to do the deck. Also the Ghirapur Aether Grid - this card out of sideboard is so much better than walking ballista. It can take down so many dark confidants or planeswalkers? It can go 20+ in combo mode - right? More so, it is recursive 2-3 damage every turn without graveyard use.
What else? Man the deck is fast. Mox opal is so solid with engineered explosives that I think there is no need for Mishra Bauble not even a 1 of since speed is of utmost importance.
So what type of decks can beat Matt Nass deck? Other than stony silence and dampening sphere, which decks have the advantage? Lots and lots of discard? Does Blue control hold this deck down. Just counter the Krark-Clan? Hence the gutteral response? If anything it will truly test how good the opponents plays in response to this proactive deck. What about a deck that has lots of path to exile. Would that work?
GreenTron, Aggro Burn, Devoted Company Variants, and Off Meta Brewer
It's probably inferior to Pyrite Spellbomb loops but it's certainly quicker, especially on MTGO. Fully on board with the two myr retriever it is just so much easier to get a loop going.
Anyone else try lodestone golem in the board to combat storm? I'm currently on the just go off before them plan but there are two storm players at my LGS now and looking into ways to hedge against them. ~10-15 players a night. Getting down Lodestone on turn three and then comboing on 4 seems like it would work.
EDH DECKS:
GBCatacomb Sifter Sac-Attack
EDH DECKS:
GBCatacomb Sifter Sac-Attack
Sorry didn't see your earlier post. Check out the link here:
https://blogs.magicjudges.org/ftw/2018/03/19/how-does-the-krark-clan-ironworks-combo-work/
it explains it pretty well.
Matt Nass also has some streams for Channel Fireball that are on MTGO and show ALL the triggers due to the nature of the program.
EDH DECKS:
GBCatacomb Sifter Sac-Attack
I saw a few pages back that the deck doesnt really want any more 4cmc cards other than KCI but have people thought about looping in something like Goblin Boom Keg, Pierce Strider, Frogmite or even a Hedron Archive? Is it the 4-drop that we would want to look for or a 3-drop?
To that point, why not Sculpting Steel?
Alternative win conditions like Santum of Ugin, hangarback, Emrakul package take the deck in a similar but different direction.
EDH DECKS:
GBCatacomb Sifter Sac-Attack
Ethersworn canonist is only 2 casting cost.. that might work ?
GreenTron, Aggro Burn, Devoted Company Variants, and Off Meta Brewer
That might work better. I was worried about the white casting cost but it shouldn't be a problem with the chromatic sticks. I'll have to give it a shot.
EDH DECKS:
GBCatacomb Sifter Sac-Attack
Or the lodestone golem, scrap tralwer, wurmcoil kind of bash like an eldrazi Tron type deck - isn't bad.
I wonder how the meta will shift? Overall the format is slowing down and burn, zoo, aggro poison are not seen as much - they go more alpha strike - all in type decks. Affinity is still going alright. So artifact hate will still be 4-8 in most sideboards. KCI will continue to deal with hate. Dampening sphere to slow down Cheerios too.
GreenTron, Aggro Burn, Devoted Company Variants, and Off Meta Brewer
As for more Nature's Claim style effects, I was thinking Natural State is probably ok enough to include 1-3 of.? It hits all but the Leylines that are relevant hate to this deck. Maybe even Fragmentize?
That is exactly why I run AetherFlux Reservoir it's less clicks on MTGO and in paper you can demonstrate the loop once and basically pick a life total with some quick math and then dome them for how ever much you need.*
In paper magic as long as you can demonstrate one iteration of the loop you can shortcut that loop for a set amount of iterations. If your opponent says "play it out" then call a judge, demonstrate the loop, and they'll back you up.
MTGO? Get good at the clicks and stacking of triggers. Most opponents will scoop because they want to move on to the next game. Some will make you kill them...
EDIT: Now with more formula!
Seems like a thing to have printed on a playmat.
EDH DECKS:
GBCatacomb Sifter Sac-Attack
That is exactly why I run AetherFlux Reservoir it's less clicks on MTGO and in paper you can demonstrate the loop once and basically pick a life total with some quick math and then dome them for how ever much you need.*
/quote]
Yeah, I feel one Reservoir is nearly required on MODO. I've gotten a LOT of kills with less than 30 seconds left thanks to it. I wouldn't have been able to recur Spellbomb enough times quickly enough. I just sub out one EE for it.
Affinity
GR Eggs GR
UR Storm UR
BR Hollow One BR
WUR Cheerios WUR
G Mono-Green Control G
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/how-to-kci