No chance or very limited chance goblin guide will be in MM2017. MM2017 will focus on innistrad block and maybe return to ravnica. With modern and particular after the pod bannings you hear and generally I think to say that the land packs for archetypes are tight. I think the free open scry to counter the spend of GG is good but the free draw of a land card (if exposed) is not so good as it can help fix mana. Seen it happen a few times where the draw from the GG helps the opponent out to fix their mana and stablise. If you can get two or three GG on the fly it is very fast and can counter act that considering the tradition wrath play does not get much run on the current competitive meta... or seems that way. Spot removal rules.
If you guys knew the epic arguments over vexing devil versus goblin guide; you would be shocked. Don't expect to much help in that area of understanding as many have left with bad feelings over it.
Goblin guide is consistently better. Key word "consistently". Vexing devil gives your opponents an option which is usually bad for you. Red players don't give options besides scoop or play. Now if you play both, I guess it's fine, but other creatures should be considered over vexing devil. If you can't find goblin guide; go for the vexing question of whether you opponent will choose an outcome that favors you.
The inconsistency of the Devil is funny as hell. for one mana you can get a 4/3 creature or it deals 4 damage to the opponent! How does that make the card suck in burn? Because the opponent chooses the best of the two? Ok you play the devil on the first turn, the guy is a 4/3 creature. The opponent don't want it to be a creature so he sucks in the 4 damage... does that sucks for a burn player? Or the guy allows the 4/3 devil in play because they have a removal spell (which most players assume) but if I don't play a devil they won't have this removal spell if I play Goblin Guide or Eidolon? [Lets not be foolish here - it doesnt matter what the format is - creatureless burn sucks... therefore burn creatures will die from removal spells] Also because the opponent allows the devil in play doesnt mean they have a removal spell.
Also if you play the devil on turn 3... 100% the devil is going to be a creature. Why? Burn math, the opponent don't want to put himself in fireblast range. Sure a mega bolt (1cc for 4 damage) can do a better job but wizards is never going to make a mega bolt.
Now if your in a situation that you need to play the devil as a creature (to block) and the opponent removes it by absorbing the damage to prevent the devil from coming in play... Then you are bound to loose anyway. Truth is I don't even think this situation exists. I've been playing the devil since it came out and so far I never saw this situation. where the opponent sucks in damage to screw a burn player over.
The only thing I believe is how the player look at the devil, they seemed to want the card to be a mega bolt. It is not a mega bolt a 4/3 creature for 1 mana.
The issue is the cost of Goblin Guides and is the Devil a good budget card. I'm not sure if the devil makes a good goblin guide replacement because you can build a burn deck without Vexing Devil, I have doubts you can build a good burn deck without Goblin Guide.
Vexing is $9 TCG mid. Not exactly budget for a bad card.
Yeah I do agree it's not much of a budget card. On the other hand, Goblin Guide & Eidolon of the Great Revel are burn staple creatures (they are as necessary as bolt and hard to replace). Currently, Goblin Guide is going for 30 dollars and I have doubts it's going to see reprinting because Goblin Guide and Swiftspear is nuts for standard. I do picture Goblin Guide is going to see 50 to 90 dollars!
I will agree that Vexing Devil is no replacement to Goblin Guide and the devil's position should be based on how the player feels about Swiftspear and/or Lavamancer.
I do think the older creatures like Figure of Destiny, Hellspark Elemental & Keldon Marauders are a little too slow for the current format and too mana demanding (I have doubts they are going to return in modern/legacy).
Maybe Spark Elemental could make a budget Goblin Guide slot... but I have doubts because that card was never taken seriously even when it should be taken seriously when it was introduced in Fifth Dawn (back then burn players wouldn't give up their mogg fanatic). [It is something to think about.]
My thoughts on Vexing Devil are that I want it to be great. I still love Browbeat, for example, b/c either you take 5 or I Ancestral. Either is going to help me win. It doesn't kill them that turn tho, so I understand why people dislike it and why Cruise was so obscene. If Vexing Devil is in the deck, my plan is that either they suck 4 up or he is absorbing a Bolt or Path that I would rather have go at him instead of my Eidolon or Guide. I've had games when I had him in my deck where T1 and 2 I had Devil, then followed up the 8 damage they sucked up w/Goblin Guide. Half their life gone by T2 is great. If your hand is just a few burn spells after that, they're probably dead. Is it a terrible topdeck when you're behind or if your opponent is on a lifegain plan like the Abzan Podless Pod or Soul Sisters? Oh yeah.
If you are limited by budget and can't get Guide, well you should probably save and get Guide ASAP b/c the price will just keep going north most likely. When I came back to Magic last May after 11 years of I was researching Burn and found Devil and sucked up the price, along w/the $10 apiece for Guide (hehe) and those were the most expensive cards, but I was building the mono red version. Now that I have the Khans fetches, a set of Stomps and Foundries and Atarka's Command and all the other potential cards, playing the multicolor burn is fine. I do love the consistency of the mono red Legacy build and always keep an eye on what is coming into the format b/c if the deck can return to being mono-colored, that's fine by me. Unfortunately there are too many things like Leyline of Sanctity played in Modern, so not sure that will ever get to happen in this format. We might shave things back to R/G or R/W eventually tho.
Here is the issue I had with vexing devil. Late game he is a serious liability. When I am very close to winning, and need a blocker or attacker, he is just burn for 4. Great in damage value, but horrible when you need it for a specific reason. No haste is a big set back. Creature cards are not just creatures or an effect, they are choices within goals. Do I play it to draw out a counter or removal? Do I need a blocker or if lucky an attacker? Do I need to pressure the player with burn and subtly hit with creature damage? These questions are answered by your opponent, not you. If you can't understand this and still argue, no one can help you. It's still a good card, but not in my deck has it been game winning.
Deflecting Palm and Path to Exile are nice. I have been testing Ensnaring Bridge, and if you can get it to land, you win. It's also good in the Merfolk and Affinity matchup.
It's still a good card against them. It can win you the game. Amulet Bloom is a very tough matchup for us, and Deflecting Palm is one of the best cards we have against them. It also has other uses against Affinity and in the mirror.
Well, that double striking titan only has one of his hits deflected. You are still taking 6 or 8 and dying next turn. If its lasted a few rounds first, could be enough to win. Yeah robbing Affinity of lifelink and hitting them in the head for double digits is hilarious.
Yeah, Deflecting Palm isn't ideal but it gives us a chance. But seriously guys, test Bridge. It's been very good for me so far in the Affinity, Bloom and Merfolk matchup.
Ensnaring Bridge is great in a lot of decks. Given how we empty our hands, I can see it being fantastic. The main negative is turning on artifact removal spells in their hand. Affinty, Bloom and Merfolk don't usually pack things like K Command tho, so not many chances there of incidental splash against them.
Not even trolling, I think Vexing Devil is actually a good card, but he's very meta dependent. In no way shape or form is he at all a replacement for any of the burn staples, but when the meta speeds up somewhat, he helps you hit your nutdraw.
At any rate, Burn needs to count to 20 fast, and the Devil does get the job done from time to time. At best, he enables you to hit 20 damage quickly. And worse case, he becomes a lightning rod for some removal or he's a 4/3 body on the field. The last I checked, 4 power/damage is still the magic number to be hitting in Modern. He can plow through X/4's all day when need be.
Here is the issue I had with vexing devil. Late game he is a serious liability. When I am very close to winning, and need a blocker or attacker, he is just burn for 4. Great in damage value, but horrible when you need it for a specific reason. No haste is a big set back. Creature cards are not just creatures or an effect, they are choices within goals. Do I play it to draw out a counter or removal? Do I need a blocker or if lucky an attacker? Do I need to pressure the player with burn and subtly hit with creature damage? These questions are answered by your opponent, not you. If you can't understand this and still argue, no one can help you. It's still a good card, but not in my deck has it been game winning.
Yeah, it really can win you the game against those 3 matchups, which are our hardest matchups. Just yesterday I sided in Ensnaring Bridge against Merfolk and they couldn't do anything. The game took 8-9 turns longer, he ran out of counterspells and I won. The only thing you need to watch out for are Ornithopters and Vapour Snag.
When you guys are talking about adding vexing devil, It's over wild nactl right? I think devil is for sure better than nactl in any draw you draw more than one, one drop creature, which happens often if you play a 16 or 17 creature build. Late game a top deck vexing is still 90% of the time better than a top decked nactl (only situation it's better is when you need a blocker and they have lots of life)
My main grudge with ensnaring bridge is it costs 3 (main reason I dont side in molten rain anymore) but I can see it working for sure
When you guys are talking about vexing devil, It's over wild nactl right? I think devil is for sure better than nactl in any draw you draw more than one, one drop creature, which happens often if you play a 16 or 17 creature build.
My main grudge with ensnaring bridge is it costs 3 (main reason I dont side in molten rain anymore) but I can see it working for sure
You would never drop Guide, Swifty, or Eidolon for Devil. Devil would be filling a "flex spot", of which there are maybe 8 total slots that typically see a few Lavamancers, Lightning Helix, Searing Blaze, Skullcrack, etc. That is, stuff that's not an automatic 4-of.
In any case, it's not worth playing Devil *or* Nacatl. At least Devil doesn't cost you 6 life to get a 3/3 that doesn't do anything on T2 when it gets bolted. However, neither card is worth playing in a competitive build. It's not as if "we need more creatures, should we use Nacatl or Devil", it's "I want to use more creatures, I want to pick between Nacatl and Devil". Burn isn't a creature deck, and if you include either of these two creatures you're losing some burn spells to do it, and that's not good. You'll quickly run into "well, on T5 I needed a bolt effect but I drew Nacatl/Devil. I lost the next turn." and realize neither is good.
Well it's super super important to have a turn one creature play in this deck, when I played the 8 one drop version I felt I would miss it too often. Having a turn one creature play helps a lot against any deck. I mean sure top decking a creature is not ideal when you need a burn spell, but I think the trade off is worth it if you have a more consistent draw with a turn one creature.
I understand both points, but for me online the results have been 16 or higher creatures almost every list. Some even use 17 as for a random grim lavamancer
hello guy's nobodies works on mardu burn style ?? i think it's a good way against actual metagame.
maybe there is another thread but i don't find him
It is very unorthodox apparently, but I do. 4 Bumps main, and a host of black goodies in the side. I tried Rakdos, bur Helix is just too good. Mardu with a tiny splash for Revelry sb is the setup I have had the best luck with.
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The inconsistency of the Devil is funny as hell. for one mana you can get a 4/3 creature or it deals 4 damage to the opponent! How does that make the card suck in burn? Because the opponent chooses the best of the two? Ok you play the devil on the first turn, the guy is a 4/3 creature. The opponent don't want it to be a creature so he sucks in the 4 damage... does that sucks for a burn player? Or the guy allows the 4/3 devil in play because they have a removal spell (which most players assume) but if I don't play a devil they won't have this removal spell if I play Goblin Guide or Eidolon? [Lets not be foolish here - it doesnt matter what the format is - creatureless burn sucks... therefore burn creatures will die from removal spells] Also because the opponent allows the devil in play doesnt mean they have a removal spell.
Also if you play the devil on turn 3... 100% the devil is going to be a creature. Why? Burn math, the opponent don't want to put himself in fireblast range. Sure a mega bolt (1cc for 4 damage) can do a better job but wizards is never going to make a mega bolt.
Now if your in a situation that you need to play the devil as a creature (to block) and the opponent removes it by absorbing the damage to prevent the devil from coming in play... Then you are bound to loose anyway. Truth is I don't even think this situation exists. I've been playing the devil since it came out and so far I never saw this situation. where the opponent sucks in damage to screw a burn player over.
The only thing I believe is how the player look at the devil, they seemed to want the card to be a mega bolt. It is not a mega bolt a 4/3 creature for 1 mana.
The issue is the cost of Goblin Guides and is the Devil a good budget card. I'm not sure if the devil makes a good goblin guide replacement because you can build a burn deck without Vexing Devil, I have doubts you can build a good burn deck without Goblin Guide.
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Yeah I do agree it's not much of a budget card. On the other hand, Goblin Guide & Eidolon of the Great Revel are burn staple creatures (they are as necessary as bolt and hard to replace). Currently, Goblin Guide is going for 30 dollars and I have doubts it's going to see reprinting because Goblin Guide and Swiftspear is nuts for standard. I do picture Goblin Guide is going to see 50 to 90 dollars!
I will agree that Vexing Devil is no replacement to Goblin Guide and the devil's position should be based on how the player feels about Swiftspear and/or Lavamancer.
I do think the older creatures like Figure of Destiny, Hellspark Elemental & Keldon Marauders are a little too slow for the current format and too mana demanding (I have doubts they are going to return in modern/legacy).
Maybe Spark Elemental could make a budget Goblin Guide slot... but I have doubts because that card was never taken seriously even when it should be taken seriously when it was introduced in Fifth Dawn (back then burn players wouldn't give up their mogg fanatic). [It is something to think about.]
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
If you are limited by budget and can't get Guide, well you should probably save and get Guide ASAP b/c the price will just keep going north most likely. When I came back to Magic last May after 11 years of I was researching Burn and found Devil and sucked up the price, along w/the $10 apiece for Guide (hehe) and those were the most expensive cards, but I was building the mono red version. Now that I have the Khans fetches, a set of Stomps and Foundries and Atarka's Command and all the other potential cards, playing the multicolor burn is fine. I do love the consistency of the mono red Legacy build and always keep an eye on what is coming into the format b/c if the deck can return to being mono-colored, that's fine by me. Unfortunately there are too many things like Leyline of Sanctity played in Modern, so not sure that will ever get to happen in this format. We might shave things back to R/G or R/W eventually tho.
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Eveen with siding this in I feel I would lose because of how situational it is vs them
Not even trolling, I think Vexing Devil is actually a good card, but he's very meta dependent. In no way shape or form is he at all a replacement for any of the burn staples, but when the meta speeds up somewhat, he helps you hit your nutdraw.
At any rate, Burn needs to count to 20 fast, and the Devil does get the job done from time to time. At best, he enables you to hit 20 damage quickly. And worse case, he becomes a lightning rod for some removal or he's a 4/3 body on the field. The last I checked, 4 power/damage is still the magic number to be hitting in Modern. He can plow through X/4's all day when need be.
Dammit, wraith, come back to DiesToRemoval.
My main grudge with ensnaring bridge is it costs 3 (main reason I dont side in molten rain anymore) but I can see it working for sure
You would never drop Guide, Swifty, or Eidolon for Devil. Devil would be filling a "flex spot", of which there are maybe 8 total slots that typically see a few Lavamancers, Lightning Helix, Searing Blaze, Skullcrack, etc. That is, stuff that's not an automatic 4-of.
In any case, it's not worth playing Devil *or* Nacatl. At least Devil doesn't cost you 6 life to get a 3/3 that doesn't do anything on T2 when it gets bolted. However, neither card is worth playing in a competitive build. It's not as if "we need more creatures, should we use Nacatl or Devil", it's "I want to use more creatures, I want to pick between Nacatl and Devil". Burn isn't a creature deck, and if you include either of these two creatures you're losing some burn spells to do it, and that's not good. You'll quickly run into "well, on T5 I needed a bolt effect but I drew Nacatl/Devil. I lost the next turn." and realize neither is good.
I understand both points, but for me online the results have been 16 or higher creatures almost every list. Some even use 17 as for a random grim lavamancer
It is very unorthodox apparently, but I do. 4 Bumps main, and a host of black goodies in the side. I tried Rakdos, bur Helix is just too good. Mardu with a tiny splash for Revelry sb is the setup I have had the best luck with.