Chandra was a fad. People woke up and played Modern-viable cards.
Reid Duke fell asleep when he brewed Chandra Jund and got 2nd place with it at GP Detroit. The MTGO meta is still asleep, as I still regularly see Chandra Jund in Modern Dailies (I've even seen minor innovation in Ajani Chandra Jund).
With that being said, as often as Chandra is a draw engine and kills some stuff for me, she (along with other walkers) tends to be a little slow against combo, she's been subpar against RG Tron because she can't draw cards fast enough (while Liliana and Ajani rip them apart more often), and she gets roasted by fliers with butts bigger than 1 (Restoration Angel, Celestial Colonnade, flipped Delver). It's probably for those reasons that she didn't do as well in GP Antwerp.
has anyone experimented with Vampire Nighthawk? especially vs fast aggro or burn? He can block and trade well, and the lifelink can offset bob and shock damage. Huntmaster is a more powerful card, but nighthawk does come down a turn faster. His biggest negative is that he doesn't provide immediate impact so if he gets bolted, that's the end of it (although that's 3 less damage to you, which can be relevant). Finks is probably better for straight up lifegain but double green is tougher than double black.
Every time I've tried Nighthawk in Modern, it died immediately to removal or I was against a removal-free deck. While at least the fact that it dies to removal means that it must be powerful enough, I've had more success with stuff that dodges more removal (like Finks and Ooze).
Reid Duke fell asleep when he brewed Chandra Jund and got 2nd place with it at GP Detroit. The MTGO meta is still asleep, as I still regularly see Chandra Jund in Modern Dailies (I've even seen minor innovation in Ajani Chandra Jund).
People do well with sub-optimal builds all the time. Remember when Geralf's Messenger was the next big thing in Modern Jund?
The problem with the hellkite ramp plan is that you don't want too many in the deck (5 lifeloss to a Bob with no lifelink) and have no tutor, so planning around a Cobra ramp is too hard to do. It might get you a few game here and there, but not enough to make me want to drop a solid card for a Lotus Cobra.
As an aside, why don't more lists run Kitchen Finks? Difficulty in casting in the no-white lists?
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Legacy: RUG RUG Delver GUR
Modern: RG GR Tron (Retired) GR WURG Kiki Pod (Retired) GRUW BRG Jund (Retired) GRB
The problem with the hellkite ramp plan is that you don't want too many in the deck (5 lifeloss to a Bob with no lifelink) and have no tutor, so planning around a Cobra ramp is too hard to do. It might get you a few game here and there, but not enough to make me want to drop a solid card for a Lotus Cobra.
As an aside, why don't more lists run Kitchen Finks? Difficulty in casting in the no-white lists?
Personally, I think finks was previously popular due to it being a great card against against the more aggressive decks, and as a way to offset confidant life-loss.
Since the prints of Deathrite & Scooze, those two aspects aren't quite as necessary (although it's still decent).
If I were to splash anything right now, I would splash blue for Snapcaster Mage & Electrolyze. Snapcaster is the closest thing to Bloodbraid Elf in the format, and Electrolyze is overall just an allstar card in the format.
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My meta contains UWR control (1-2 ppl), Affinity (ALOT), a fair bit of homebrew (graveyard shenanigans or reviving Storm and Eggs) and one GR tron player.
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Find something, Live For it, Fight for it, Die for it. Then it might get passed on the the next generation.
Cut an Inquisition for a fourth Lili is my initial quick impression.
Thanks for the quick reply. Honestly I only have 3 Lilianas in there because I dont have the fourth in my possession right now (its in a friends commander deck). I would like to stay at 6 disruption mainboard if this is possible (so helpful to make UWR pitch stuff early on; I also read a bit from a Channelfireball article on Chandra Jund that trumpeted keeping disruption at 6). Anything else I can remove in order to up the Liliana content?
Something I would like feedback on would be the manabase. Is running a basic of each color worth losing a blackcleave or should I avoid this?
Finally do you guys this that running Chandra is worthwhile in this build? I kinda have a magical christmas land of triple casting a lingering souls.
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Find something, Live For it, Fight for it, Die for it. Then it might get passed on the the next generation.
Blightning makes a decent Liliana impression if you want something a bit more powerful than Inquisition, and it's decent as a 1-of. I'm running 2 right now in place of the 2 Lily's I don't own, and it's been fine. Not great, but rarely as dead as TS/IoK since it at least goes to the dome or hits a planeswalker.
As for Chandra, I definitely don't think she's the best 4-drop all the time, but she's still easily on par with Ajani, Huntmaster, and Olivia. She's a fine option against the Mirror, U/W/R, and other midrange decks, but she definitely lacks against combo and some aggro decks. Still, saying Reid Duke "fell asleep" and got 2nd place is a bit off-color, considering he's one of the strongest pro players out there right now. He even admitted that Chandra wasn't actually ideal for him, since he expected more U/W/R decks and ended up playing a lot of B/G/x mirrors, but he still made Top 8. That doesn't mean we should always play Chandra, but I'm confident she's more than a "flash in the pan", and should remain in the rotating arsenal of options we have in that slot, depending on the meta you are trying to defeat.
Chandra was a fad. People woke up and played Modern-viable cards.
My references to sleep were supposed to be sarcastic. I wanted to imply that people "fell asleep" by playing Chandra and never "woke up" to stop using her--for good reason. I also don't think Chandra is a fad (although I do like her with more protection around her)--her card draw has won games for me against midrange and control.
Ah, I'm sorry then Lectrys, I read that all too fast. In that case I support your sarcasm, and also support Reid's innovation. He's a master, and Chandra is a Pyromaster that I'm happy to play.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Chandra fits a role in the deck at a place and time in the meta. It's not a staple card of the deck. There are several options that are good in that spot, and blindly playing the card because Reid Duke does and not actually being able to identify what it's doing for you... well, if that describes you, you might be bad at magic.
Jund is usually always labeled as midrange, but the current modern iteration has a lot of tempo elements. I'd call faster, lower curved lists a tempo deck instead of midrange.
Mhhh, where do you offset your opponents tempo? No Remands, no Daze/Force Spike, no bounce, no Thalia, no landdestruction maindeck. I do actually not know a single tempo card in Jund [maybe our definition of tempo is different though].
If anything I'd rather label Jund as a control deck (if you don't want to call it midrange) since you basically want to one-for-one your opponent the whole time and then win with a huge threat (Tarmogoyf, various 4/5 drops) or bury him in CA (Liliana, Dark Confidant) which is very control-ish in it's priciples.
Our definitions are probably different. I define it as super efficient creatures backed by lots of disruption (so no counterspells but instead removal and hand disruption). Anyway my point is that extensions to the Jund core can have a lot of variance, and anyone who just views the deck as just midrange/goodstuff is probably not playing it (or against it) correctly.
I run two Olivias main deck. It's not great (none of the 4-drops in Jund colors are), but every so often I'll get free wins in game 1 against Affinity or Pod. It's more of a meta call against aggressive/creature-heavy decks though.
Master of Waves has been really good against me so far because there are only 2 Maelstrom Pulses in my list to kill it. I've been trying to think of a way to deal with it. Infest and Anger of the Gods deal with it somewhat. Infest kills it and its tokens, unless they have multiple lords. AotG kills the double lords and tokens but leaves the Master. So neither is perfect. I was wracking my brain for a 4 drop that would help. Thought of Skinrender. Not exactly what I want. Also then thought of Reaper of the Wilds as a card that could see play not for killing MotW but just because it is hard to kill and has some good abilities. Not saying it is a staple or anything, but it isn't the worst card ever for the deck. Thrun is probably just better though.
Chandra fits a role in the deck at a place and time in the meta. It's not a staple card of the deck. There are several options that are good in that spot, and blindly playing the card because Reid Duke does and not actually being able to identify what it's doing for you... well, if that describes you, you might be bad at magic.
I'm a little slow on the uptake here, but I'm still not going to let this dig get past me without a rebuttal.
Dakhwon, If you read my earlier comment(s) regarding Chandra you would know that I also don't think she's a staple, and that I basically agree with your assessment. I don't play the card blind, and to be honest she was only a 2-of in my deck for a couple weeks before I removed her. I was simply defending Reid, and defending Chandra as being a fine option when the meta is right.
If you feel the need to call me out as being potentially bad at magic, well maybe that says something about yourself instead.
As for the Master of Waves discussion, there are plenty of options available to us to handle that card. Dismember was a great suggestion, and Go for the Throat/Doomblade are also fine choices. Damnation does some work, and can take a slot of Shatterstorm or similar sweepers in the board. If I was having a Fish problem, I'd probably just slide in a couple Go for the Throats, most likely in place of Terminate or Abrupt Decay.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
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Reid Duke fell asleep when he brewed Chandra Jund and got 2nd place with it at GP Detroit. The MTGO meta is still asleep, as I still regularly see Chandra Jund in Modern Dailies (I've even seen minor innovation in Ajani Chandra Jund).
With that being said, as often as Chandra is a draw engine and kills some stuff for me, she (along with other walkers) tends to be a little slow against combo, she's been subpar against RG Tron because she can't draw cards fast enough (while Liliana and Ajani rip them apart more often), and she gets roasted by fliers with butts bigger than 1 (Restoration Angel, Celestial Colonnade, flipped Delver). It's probably for those reasons that she didn't do as well in GP Antwerp.
Every time I've tried Nighthawk in Modern, it died immediately to removal or I was against a removal-free deck. While at least the fact that it dies to removal means that it must be powerful enough, I've had more success with stuff that dodges more removal (like Finks and Ooze).
People do well with sub-optimal builds all the time. Remember when Geralf's Messenger was the next big thing in Modern Jund?
it was more about the haste to race and cascade for great CA
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
As an aside, why don't more lists run Kitchen Finks? Difficulty in casting in the no-white lists?
RUG RUG Delver GUR
RG GR Tron (Retired) GR
WURG Kiki Pod (Retired) GRUW
BRG Jund (Retired) GRB
Personally, I think finks was previously popular due to it being a great card against against the more aggressive decks, and as a way to offset confidant life-loss.
Since the prints of Deathrite & Scooze, those two aspects aren't quite as necessary (although it's still decent).
If I were to splash anything right now, I would splash blue for Snapcaster Mage & Electrolyze. Snapcaster is the closest thing to Bloodbraid Elf in the format, and Electrolyze is overall just an allstar card in the format.
I'm just wondering if you guys think this build could be viable?
3x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
1x Forest
1x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
2x Raging Ravine
1x Stomping Ground
2x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
2x Treetop Village
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Lingering Souls
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Thoughtseize
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Path to Exile
3x Terminate
2x Ajani Vengeant
1x Chandra, Pyromaster
3x Liliana of the Veil
4x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Olivia Voldaren
1x Path to Exile
1x Shatterstorm
2x Sowing Salt
1x Stone Rain
2x Stony Silence
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
My meta contains UWR control (1-2 ppl), Affinity (ALOT), a fair bit of homebrew (graveyard shenanigans or reviving Storm and Eggs) and one GR tron player.
Thanks for the quick reply. Honestly I only have 3 Lilianas in there because I dont have the fourth in my possession right now (its in a friends commander deck). I would like to stay at 6 disruption mainboard if this is possible (so helpful to make UWR pitch stuff early on; I also read a bit from a Channelfireball article on Chandra Jund that trumpeted keeping disruption at 6). Anything else I can remove in order to up the Liliana content?
Something I would like feedback on would be the manabase. Is running a basic of each color worth losing a blackcleave or should I avoid this?
Finally do you guys this that running Chandra is worthwhile in this build? I kinda have a magical christmas land of triple casting a lingering souls.
As for Chandra, I definitely don't think she's the best 4-drop all the time, but she's still easily on par with Ajani, Huntmaster, and Olivia. She's a fine option against the Mirror, U/W/R, and other midrange decks, but she definitely lacks against combo and some aggro decks. Still, saying Reid Duke "fell asleep" and got 2nd place is a bit off-color, considering he's one of the strongest pro players out there right now. He even admitted that Chandra wasn't actually ideal for him, since he expected more U/W/R decks and ended up playing a lot of B/G/x mirrors, but he still made Top 8. That doesn't mean we should always play Chandra, but I'm confident she's more than a "flash in the pan", and should remain in the rotating arsenal of options we have in that slot, depending on the meta you are trying to defeat.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
My references to sleep were supposed to be sarcastic. I wanted to imply that people "fell asleep" by playing Chandra and never "woke up" to stop using her--for good reason. I also don't think Chandra is a fad (although I do like her with more protection around her)--her card draw has won games for me against midrange and control.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Our definitions are probably different. I define it as super efficient creatures backed by lots of disruption (so no counterspells but instead removal and hand disruption). Anyway my point is that extensions to the Jund core can have a lot of variance, and anyone who just views the deck as just midrange/goodstuff is probably not playing it (or against it) correctly.
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Most of Jund's spells are sorcery speed anyway, so it's not a big deal.
Level 1 Judge
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I'm a little slow on the uptake here, but I'm still not going to let this dig get past me without a rebuttal.
Dakhwon, If you read my earlier comment(s) regarding Chandra you would know that I also don't think she's a staple, and that I basically agree with your assessment. I don't play the card blind, and to be honest she was only a 2-of in my deck for a couple weeks before I removed her. I was simply defending Reid, and defending Chandra as being a fine option when the meta is right.
If you feel the need to call me out as being potentially bad at magic, well maybe that says something about yourself instead.
As for the Master of Waves discussion, there are plenty of options available to us to handle that card. Dismember was a great suggestion, and Go for the Throat/Doomblade are also fine choices. Damnation does some work, and can take a slot of Shatterstorm or similar sweepers in the board. If I was having a Fish problem, I'd probably just slide in a couple Go for the Throats, most likely in place of Terminate or Abrupt Decay.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB