(These are pieces for reviewal, some I know I need more of [Bolt, Bob, etc...] but right now I just want to know what pieces are good and should go in and which are poor choices.)
No, I am not building Pauper Jund. No, some of these are not meant to replace more expensive cards (Putrefy =/= Abrupt Decay). I merely wanna know which goes in from what I have. Reasons on some would be appreciated (Rancor, etc.).
Thanks.
9 Fetches and 4 Basics does not a Blood Moon-resistant mana base make. I run nearly the same mana base, (-1 fetch, +1 manland I believe), and I can not imagine very many games where I would be happy to resolve a Turn 2/3 Moon. I don't see 2 mana birds helping here either. Even if you resolve a Blood Moon against another deck that "folds" to it, crippling your own resources is still a big risk. Compared to something like U/R Twin which can resolve Blood Moon and still function perfectly fine, we lose manlands, Ooze ability, ability to cast spells and activate DRS, Olivia, etc. When you have spells like Decay, Terminate, Lili, Huntmaster, Thrun, Olivia, and Ooze, you simply aren't going to be able to function properly on 1 basic Swamp, 1 basic Forest, and a bunch of nonbasic Mountains in play.
I do appreciate that you can board them out, and thus the SB charms and Thrun are more acceptable. But it still seems to be Moon would better in the board. There's just too many matchups (in an open meta anyway) where running out Blood Moon will just slow you down too much, or it's not worth casting. Those same games are the times when Birds of Paradise will basically be an 0/1 after turn 3. Yes, ramping out a Lili or Huntmaster is sweet, but we are a deck that wants to trade our cards 1 for 1, and 0/1 fliers without Swords or Exalted or Township just don't do it for me.
Abrupt Decay is not dead the same way Moon is. Against Tron, there are plenty of targets, namely mana rocks and 3/3 Wurm tokens, but it's a nonzero number. Scapeshift usually plays a couple dudes. UWR Control plays creatures, even the Wafo-Tapa version usually runs Snappy and Clique. Living End has targets, but whether you want to hit them is another story. Still, Decay is not dead in any of these situations in the same way as a Bad Blood Moon rotting in your hand. And I would argue in an open meta, there are far more decks where Decay is stronger than Blood Moon.
Put it this way: In my opinion, Blood Moon could be reasonably strong against the following decks:
U/W/R, Control version (Geist version is more resilient)
Tron
Scapeshift
4C Pod, maybe Melira Pod to a lesser extent
Blood Moon is NOT strong against the following:
Affinity
Gruul Zoo
Kibler Zoo (they typically run Moon SB)
U/W/R once they realize you're on Moon, Geist versions in general can still play ball
Infect/Bogles
Fish
Burn
B/G Rock
U/R Twin, Fae, Storm
For some decks, this might be different. When U/R Twin casts Blood Moon against nearly anyone, they are just looking to slow down their opponent enough to resolve a combo. We are looking to grind the game out with a lot of removal and some unique creatures and permanents. We NEED to cast our spells. I just don't think Moon is helping you win enough games to justify all the games where it will hinder you or be a dead draw.
If U/W/R control is your big enemy at your local scene, I can understand you reasons. But 3x Thrun should really be sufficient to crush them, it's not like the match is that much in their favor to begin with.
On the other hand, Catching people off guard from time to time is totally worth it, so if it's helping out your EV more power to you. But I don't need to test it to know it's not for me.
If I was going to try a Blood Moon Jund, it would probably be something like this:
...with more discard and another Blood Moon in the board. At least this way you can play some more aggressive threats first, maybe a liliana, and THEN play Blood Moon to lock up the game while you swing with 3/3s and 4/5s. But Jund is just too many hungry to really maximize the power of Moon like other decks can...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
...not sure about the rest of the sideboard. Pretty straightforward list and went on to win against Splintertwin, MartyrProc, Affinity and a draw against Eternal Command with the last game going to time which could have gone either way.
No Huntmasters? Why dont you like him? Just out of curiosity
Xenagos is like a bloodraird elf that always cascades into a planeswalker. Infinite hasty 2/2s is very good and being able to generate mana occasionally as an upside lets you save mana activating manlands which is a thing and opens the door to playing thundermaw hellkite at the top of the curve like in willy edels GP winning jund list pre-BBE ban.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
Xenagos is like a bloodraird elf that always cascades into a planeswalker. Infinite hasty 2/2s is very good and being able to generate mana occasionally as an upside lets you save mana activating manlands which is a thing and opens the door to playing thundermaw hellkite at the top of the curve like in willy edels GP winning jund list pre-BBE ban.
It's actually a Bloodbraid Elf with -1 attack power and says "The planeswalker you cascaded into have summoning sickness. If Bloodbraid Elf is countered, counter the planeswalker you cascaded into."
Xenagos is like a bloodraird elf that always cascades into a planeswalker. Infinite hasty 2/2s is very good and being able to generate mana occasionally as an upside lets you save mana activating manlands which is a thing and opens the door to playing thundermaw hellkite at the top of the curve like in willy edels GP winning jund list pre-BBE ban.
This is probably the most ridiculous thing I have seen.
There is no way you can actually believe he is anywhere as good as BBE.
He isnt even as good Huntmaster, or Garruk in my opinion.
Xenagos is like a bloodraird elf that always cascades into a planeswalker. Infinite hasty 2/2s is very good and being able to generate mana occasionally as an upside lets you save mana activating manlands which is a thing and opens the door to playing thundermaw hellkite at the top of the curve like in willy edels GP winning jund list pre-BBE ban.
I am sorry to say this. But, Bloodbraid Elf is far better than Xenagos. Bloodbraid Elf is a Visible Card Advantage. Or to say it short, it is literally 2-for-1 card. She lets you play two cards in one card: a 3/2 haste creature and a random relevant spell with 3 or lower cmc. That's why players using countermagic have a very difficult time to deal with her. Unlike Xenagos that you will always frown when it gets countered. You will only enjoy his advantage if you successfully land him on board. I miss Bloodbraid Elf.
Xenagos just isn't worth it for us...comparing it directly to huntmaster, they both are going to generate 2/2 tokens, you arn't going to be using that mana spell because we don't run that many high mana spells or creatures...most of the time you play huntmaster, your opponent will be forced to use a spell on their turn and WONT be able to use one on yours, and if they do, you have forced them into plays they would not normally run...
Assuming you get a flip by that point, you have 2 2/2's versus a 4/4 trample, 2/2 that has gained 2 life, dealt 2 direct damage, and 2 to a creature...
I think xenagos is good, but in a deck that utilizes his +1, like big Naya...
So after the world champs the straight BG list was popping up a lot. I kept asking myself why not play Bolt? Obviously at the world champs, the lists were heavily metagamed to beat UWR. Bolt is not that great in that matchup, so a lack of red at the world champs makes sense. I really think that the best build of jund currently plays both Bolt and some number of scavenging ooze (2-4). I think it also wants tectonic edge, but I am not sure if that is doable with a 3+ color mana base.
Idk whether or not we want white, I think it is a meta call. Obviously lingering souls is very powerful. 4c jund can probably not play tectonic edge. This tells me that if you expect a lot of UWx and want to beat it, then 3 or less colors is correct. If you are not too worried about UWx then you can add white.
Does this line of thinking make sense to anyone else?
(These are pieces for reviewal, some I know I need more of [Bolt, Bob, etc...] but right now I just want to know what pieces are good and should go in and which are poor choices.)
No, I am not building Pauper Jund. No, some of these are not meant to replace more expensive cards (Putrefy =/= Abrupt Decay). I merely wanna know which goes in from what I have. Reasons on some would be appreciated (Rancor, etc.).
Thanks.
I think Stormbreath Dragon is significantly better than Thundermaw Hellkite...protection from big removal and ability to become a better finisher with monstrous...
(These are pieces for reviewal, some I know I need more of [Bolt, Bob, etc...] but right now I just want to know what pieces are good and should go in and which are poor choices.)
Deathrite Shaman x 4
Tarmogoyf x 4
Dark Confidant x 1
Kitchen Finks x 2
Inquisition of Kozilek x 3
Lightning Bolt x 2
Verdant Catacombs x 4
Overgrown Tomb x 3
Woodland Cemetery x 2
Scavenging Ooze x 1
Slagstorm x 1
Birds of Paradise x 4
Thragtusk x 3
Lotleth Troll x 1
Ratchet Bomb x 1
Appetite for Brains x 1
Vampire Nighthawk x 2
Rancor x 4
Eternal Witness x 3
Ghor-Clan Rampager x 2
Burning-Tree Emissary x 2
Terminate x 4
Relic of Progenitus x 3
No, I am not building Pauper Jund. No, some of these are not meant to replace more expensive cards (Putrefy =/= Abrupt Decay). I merely wanna know which goes in from what I have. Reasons on some would be appreciated (Rancor, etc.).
Thanks.
9 Fetches and 4 Basics does not a Blood Moon-resistant mana base make. I run nearly the same mana base, (-1 fetch, +1 manland I believe), and I can not imagine very many games where I would be happy to resolve a Turn 2/3 Moon. I don't see 2 mana birds helping here either. Even if you resolve a Blood Moon against another deck that "folds" to it, crippling your own resources is still a big risk. Compared to something like U/R Twin which can resolve Blood Moon and still function perfectly fine, we lose manlands, Ooze ability, ability to cast spells and activate DRS, Olivia, etc. When you have spells like Decay, Terminate, Lili, Huntmaster, Thrun, Olivia, and Ooze, you simply aren't going to be able to function properly on 1 basic Swamp, 1 basic Forest, and a bunch of nonbasic Mountains in play.
I do appreciate that you can board them out, and thus the SB charms and Thrun are more acceptable. But it still seems to be Moon would better in the board. There's just too many matchups (in an open meta anyway) where running out Blood Moon will just slow you down too much, or it's not worth casting. Those same games are the times when Birds of Paradise will basically be an 0/1 after turn 3. Yes, ramping out a Lili or Huntmaster is sweet, but we are a deck that wants to trade our cards 1 for 1, and 0/1 fliers without Swords or Exalted or Township just don't do it for me.
Abrupt Decay is not dead the same way Moon is. Against Tron, there are plenty of targets, namely mana rocks and 3/3 Wurm tokens, but it's a nonzero number. Scapeshift usually plays a couple dudes. UWR Control plays creatures, even the Wafo-Tapa version usually runs Snappy and Clique. Living End has targets, but whether you want to hit them is another story. Still, Decay is not dead in any of these situations in the same way as a Bad Blood Moon rotting in your hand. And I would argue in an open meta, there are far more decks where Decay is stronger than Blood Moon.
Put it this way: In my opinion, Blood Moon could be reasonably strong against the following decks:
U/W/R, Control version (Geist version is more resilient)
Tron
Scapeshift
4C Pod, maybe Melira Pod to a lesser extent
Blood Moon is NOT strong against the following:
Affinity
Gruul Zoo
Kibler Zoo (they typically run Moon SB)
U/W/R once they realize you're on Moon, Geist versions in general can still play ball
Infect/Bogles
Fish
Burn
B/G Rock
U/R Twin, Fae, Storm
For some decks, this might be different. When U/R Twin casts Blood Moon against nearly anyone, they are just looking to slow down their opponent enough to resolve a combo. We are looking to grind the game out with a lot of removal and some unique creatures and permanents. We NEED to cast our spells. I just don't think Moon is helping you win enough games to justify all the games where it will hinder you or be a dead draw.
If U/W/R control is your big enemy at your local scene, I can understand you reasons. But 3x Thrun should really be sufficient to crush them, it's not like the match is that much in their favor to begin with.
On the other hand, Catching people off guard from time to time is totally worth it, so if it's helping out your EV more power to you. But I don't need to test it to know it's not for me.
If I was going to try a Blood Moon Jund, it would probably be something like this:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dreg Mangler
4 Putrid Leech
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Blood Moon
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
2 Thoughtseize
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Raging Ravine
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
...with more discard and another Blood Moon in the board. At least this way you can play some more aggressive threats first, maybe a liliana, and THEN play Blood Moon to lock up the game while you swing with 3/3s and 4/5s. But Jund is just too many hungry to really maximize the power of Moon like other decks can...
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
This is my current list. Just to open it up for discussion a little bit. Its probably fairly stock bit still cant hurt!
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmagoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
1 Forest
1 Blood Crypt
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Stomping Ground
4 Raging Ravine
3 Sowing Salt
2 Rakdos Charm
3 Jund Charm
2 Olivia Volderan
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Garruk Relentless or Maelstrom Pulse
No Huntmasters? Why dont you like him? Just out of curiosity
Do you mean affinity?
It's actually a Bloodbraid Elf with -1 attack power and says "The planeswalker you cascaded into have summoning sickness. If Bloodbraid Elf is countered, counter the planeswalker you cascaded into."
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
This is probably the most ridiculous thing I have seen.
There is no way you can actually believe he is anywhere as good as BBE.
He isnt even as good Huntmaster, or Garruk in my opinion.
I am sorry to say this. But, Bloodbraid Elf is far better than Xenagos. Bloodbraid Elf is a Visible Card Advantage. Or to say it short, it is literally 2-for-1 card. She lets you play two cards in one card: a 3/2 haste creature and a random relevant spell with 3 or lower cmc. That's why players using countermagic have a very difficult time to deal with her. Unlike Xenagos that you will always frown when it gets countered. You will only enjoy his advantage if you successfully land him on board. I miss Bloodbraid Elf.
Assuming you get a flip by that point, you have 2 2/2's versus a 4/4 trample, 2/2 that has gained 2 life, dealt 2 direct damage, and 2 to a creature...
I think xenagos is good, but in a deck that utilizes his +1, like big Naya...
Now that dragon might be a 1 of...
Idk whether or not we want white, I think it is a meta call. Obviously lingering souls is very powerful. 4c jund can probably not play tectonic edge. This tells me that if you expect a lot of UWx and want to beat it, then 3 or less colors is correct. If you are not too worried about UWx then you can add white.
Does this line of thinking make sense to anyone else?
Level 1 Judge
WUBRG
RG tron? Affinity? GW Auras?
If you made a list of 1 through 5 of our worst matchups, what would those be?
1.Does having Scavenging Ooze in the deck along side Tarmogoyf cause synergy problems?
2. What is the sweet spot for # of IoKs and Thoughtseizes? 5 total? 6?
Thanks in advance!
Jund (B/G, B/G/R, B/G/R/W)
Pod (Melira and Kiki)
Affinity
G/R Tron
U/W/R Control
U/R Delver (Rug/Wur/Grixis)
U/R Twin
Out of these, it sounds like Affinity, Tron, Pod, and maybe U/W/R variants would be on our watch list.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
1. No it doesnt cause problems. I only play one Scooze main, so you just have to be smart in how you use him.
2. I play 3 Thoughtseize and 3 Iok.
Also, what about the upcoming Stormbreath Dragon? Better or worse than Thundermaw Hellkite?
Maybe you take out one huntmaster for the dragon, but I think that is more of a sideboard thing if you are racing...