Even the pure tempo decks (UR Faeries and the like) have given up on Pyromancer. Turns out it's just too slow if you don't have piles of free spells or ways to reliably push it out on turn one.
In Twin, I can't imagine wanting it over a counterspell or a Spellskite on turn two.
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It's not your job to win games of Magic where you're mana screwed.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
"Stall until combo pieces are found" -> The role of cantrips and mana leaks. You don't even run that many things you play with him on board that make tokens and these aren't even useful. If you're having problem with aggro decks run more removal like flame slash. They also make you tremendously inconsistent.
Pyromancer fits in tempo decks and even there...
I definitely don't like Pyromancer, because I don't like cards that don't contribute towards the plan of playing and protecting the combo.
You find more combo pieces via mulligans and just putting enough copies in your deck than you do by using cantrips
I've been playing it with success locally after Detroit as a 2 of, but I'm playing a pretty controlling U/R list.
Cryptic Command is never(rarely) protecting the combo so it's more likely slowing opponents board progression, it seems justifiable while control or tempo'ing when it's competing with trash cantrip/filter slots.
There are 2 paths to victory for this deck. First of all, is to use Pestermite and Breaching Hippocamp 2 and 3 power respectively to kill the opponents. .
The other path to victory is to combo them out by protecting the combo using counterspells and Teferi.
Still testing it and hopefully it will be successful.
There are 2 paths to victory for this deck. First of all, is to use Pestermite and Breaching Hippocamp 2 and 3 power respectively to kill the opponents. .
The other path to victory is to combo them out by protecting the combo using counterspells and Teferi.
Still testing it and hopefully it will be successful.
Is there any reason why you omit Deceiver Exarch and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker? Just curious. [card]Breaching Hippocamp seems interesting but I'm not really sure beating on the ground is the best way to go in this meta. It can be hard to count on. The 4 mana makes it a turn slower to combo out as well.
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Currently Playing Modern Decks:
:symu::symr:UR Splinter Twin:symr::symu:
:symu::symw::symr:UWR Control:symr::symw::symu:
Scrubbed out (1-3) on this week's Monday Night Modern tournament with a deck that I only slightly tweaked from the previous week, where I actually won.
Please, please, please tell me what I'm doing wrong with my sideboarding. I feel I am being an idiot at it.
Round 1, versus a standard (Theros, mostly) WG deck with Path To Exile (1-2):
Game 1, I grind out a game with bolts, slashes, and snapcasters and had an Exarch on the table until I managed to topdeck a Peek into a Splinter Twin 10 turns in. I couldn't find a cantrip or a Splinter Twin for a loooong time.
Game 2, I again couldn't find half my combo. I had a Twin, but no critter to put it on except Snapcaster, and I was staring down an indestructible Monstrous Kitty. Blood Moon didn't do well for me this time since he lucked into basics from turn 1.
Side In: 1 Kiki-Jiki, 1 Splinter Twin
Side Out: 2 Blood Moon
Game 3, I had Exarch Needled, and put Splinter Twin on it, waiting to bounce the artifact when I topdecked a Cryptic Command on my penultimate turn. I had Island, Mountain, Desolate Lighthouse, Sulfur Falls as my lands. Turn 5, I topdecked a land, all right: a Tectonic Edge. Crud.
0-1
Round 2, versus some Angel Combo deck. Had no idea what it was, honestly. (2-0)
Game 1, I would just cantrip and Remand, and assembled the combo on Turn 4, seeing as he was tapped out.
Side In: 1 Cryptic command
Side Out: 1 Flame Slash
Game 2, I goldfished again. Four turns.
1-1
Round 3, versus Boggle
Never fought Boggle before. It was frustrating. :|
Game 1, he mulled to 4(!) but I never found a second cantrip or a Splinter Twin until I died.
Side In: 2 Pyroclasm, 2 Negate, 1 Spellskite
Side Out: 2 Flame Slash, 3 Lightning Bolt
Game 2, I opened with Pyroclasm and Snapcaster in hand, he opened with Boggle. I wasn't ablke to race the Boggles, as he had 2 of those critters, and 1 of them had Totem Armor, so I had to Clasm and Snapclasm it. It still wasn't good enough.
1-2
Round 4, versus Lingering Souls
Game 1, I managed to grind out via aggro with Vendilion Clique wearing a Splinter Twin to cycle through my deck. I won via Bolt, Snapcaster Bolt.
Side In: 2 Pyroclasm, 2 Negate,
Side out: 2 Flame Slash, 2 Dispel
Game 2, he overran me with tokens. I couldn't combo out because he had a Soul Sister critter and I only had Exarch to combo with, so meh.
Game 3, I conceded because it was feeling pretty pointless to grind the game out when the tournament winners were already done with their game, and we already held our prize payouts for the tourney.
The advice I need is simple: sideboarding, and how often would you mull a hand with half the combo but no cantrips to work with?
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Vintage: Blue Belcher, Mentor Remora, Burning Long
Legacy: ANT, Sneak and Show, Omnitell, Oops All Spells
Modern: Grishoalbrand, Infect, UR Storm, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control
Over the last day, I have read this entire thread. Now I wish I would have before today.
Almost a year ago, I sold out of magic all together. Less than a month ago, I decided to get back into it, and started on standard. Bought back in, completed a competitive deck, and decided to start on modern. I spent a couple of days looking over recent dailies and events, and decided I liked the look of uwr twin, so started buying into it. I have almost completed picking up the parts for the deck, and now realize... I don't want to be playing it. From what almost everyone is saying the uwr version is pretty bad, and I don't enjoy the all in combo version.
The thing I am still unsure on is the UR tempo version though. It seems almost everyone contributing to this thread plays either full in combo, or plays uwr twin and even admits it's not as good. What about the UR tempo? Is it as effective? Or should I go ahead and start aggressively trading off of all my new toys into another deck (likely pod)?
Over the last day, I have read this entire thread. Now I wish I would have before today.
Almost a year ago, I sold out of magic all together. Less than a month ago, I decided to get back into it, and started on standard. Bought back in, completed a competitive deck, and decided to start on modern. I spent a couple of days looking over recent dailies and events, and decided I liked the look of uwr twin, so started buying into it. I have almost completed picking up the parts for the deck, and now realize... I don't want to be playing it. From what almost everyone is saying the uwr version is pretty bad, and I don't enjoy the all in combo version.
The thing I am still unsure on is the UR tempo version though. It seems almost everyone contributing to this thread plays either full in combo, or plays uwr twin and even admits it's not as good. What about the UR tempo? Is it as effective? Or should I go ahead and start aggressively trading off of all my new toys into another deck (likely pod)?
Thanks for any insights
I hear Kiki Pod put in a good finish recently, and it has a bunch of the same cards
Great ideas! I have no use for Dismember since nobody runs Twin or Lin-Vala in my meta, and I really should have made room for an Engineered Explosives, to begin with vs. Tokens.
That being said, am I boarding out the right cards in sideboarding, or am I doing something woefully wrong? This is especially something I'm curious about in games where I'm boarding in Batterskull.
@havaok:
I just got into this thread, but I've mostly been playing the UR Tempo version in my weekly Modern tourneys. I've been doing decently for the most part except for this week, when I tweaked around with the deck a whole lot, kept a lot of questionable opening grips, and encountered some matchups like Boogle for the first time ever.
We can sling around ideas over the deck, if you want, but take everything I have to say with a grain of salt since I only started in Modern very recently. I'm more of a Vintage/Legacy guy.
Vintage: Blue Belcher, Mentor Remora, Burning Long
Legacy: ANT, Sneak and Show, Omnitell, Oops All Spells
Modern: Grishoalbrand, Infect, UR Storm, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control
Great ideas! I have no use for Dismember since nobody runs Twin or Lin-Vala in my meta, and I really should have made room for an Engineered Explosives, to begin with vs. Tokens.
That being said, am I boarding out the right cards in sideboarding, or am I doing something woefully wrong? This is especially something I'm curious about in games where I'm boarding in Batterskull.
@havaok:
I just got into this thread, but I've mostly been playing the UR Tempo version in my weekly Modern tourneys. I've been doing decently for the most part except for this week, when I tweaked around with the deck a whole lot, kept a lot of questionable opening grips, and encountered some matchups like Boogle for the first time ever.
We can sling around ideas over the deck, if you want, but take everything I have to say with a grain of salt since I only started in Modern very recently. I'm more of a Vintage/Legacy guy.
What was the GW guy's mana base like? Was it nearly all nonbasics like in GW Hatebears or was it mainly basics? If you saw lots of basics, I question boarding in Blood Moon.
Also, I'm surprised that you didn't swap a Dispel for a Spellskite against GW. Imagine Dispel if it could block Fleecemane Lion and it enabled Turn 4 protected combos--that's Spellskite in this match-up.
I'd also only recommend Batterskull against highly disruptive decks like UWR and Jund. I think GW Hatebears and that GW deck can be raced or combo'd out against more easily.
What was the GW guy's mana base like? Was it nearly all nonbasics like in GW Hatebears or was it mainly basics? If you saw lots of basics, I question boarding in Blood Moon.
Also, I'm surprised that you didn't swap a Dispel for a Spellskite against GW. Imagine Dispel if it could block Fleecemane Lion and it enabled Turn 4 protected combos--that's Spellskite in this match-up.
I'd also only recommend Batterskull against highly disruptive decks like UWR and Jund. I think GW Hatebears and that GW deck can be raced or combo'd out against more easily.
In game 1, I saw *exclusively* non-basics. That's why I boarded in Blood Moon.
As for Spellskite, you're right. I should have put in the second, and left Batterskull at home.
That being said, if the only deck I've ever seen run discard against me was the Lingering Souls deck (From the board, no less.), should I even bother running Batterskull in the board?
EDIT: Other decks commonly seen in my very small meta - Burn, GW decks of various flavors, RG Tron, Mono-U Tron, Scapeshift, Prime Time, Infect, and some horrible mill control UB deck with zero synergy for its card choices.
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Vintage: Blue Belcher, Mentor Remora, Burning Long
Legacy: ANT, Sneak and Show, Omnitell, Oops All Spells
Modern: Grishoalbrand, Infect, UR Storm, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control
the WUR version isn't terrible. it plays like a midrange deck that has the option to win out of nowhere. but my preference is the all in combo. more dig means you can keep riskier hands and dig yourself out of holes if you get hit with discard. spellskite should be at least a 1 of, if not a 2 of in the mainboard. the third in the side makes some match ups cakewalks.
engineered explosives should be in the sideboard somewhere.
so, why peek over g-probe? probe slows us down by one turn. the life loss is hardly relevant, as it doesn't matter if we win with 1 life or 20. make sure the last thing you untap is the thing that does the untapping, so you can untap a blue source for dispel or whatever to stop any shenanigans.
you discard a non relevant card, flash in pestermite or exarch at the end of turn, then combo off on yours. you can also play spell pierce in your sideboard.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
the WUR version isn't terrible. it plays like a midrange deck that has the option to win out of nowhere. but my preference is the all in combo. more dig means you can keep riskier hands and dig yourself out of holes if you get hit with discard. spellskite should be at least a 1 of, if not a 2 of in the mainboard. the third in the side makes some match ups cakewalks.
engineered explosives should be in the sideboard somewhere.
so, why peek over g-probe? probe slows us down by one turn. the life loss is hardly relevant, as it doesn't matter if we win with 1 life or 20. make sure the last thing you untap is the thing that does the untapping, so you can untap a blue source for dispel or whatever to stop any shenanigans.
Peek is an instant. So you could know at EOT if comboing out is safe. Either way I see no need for either of these cards.
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Currently Playing Modern Decks:
:symu::symr:UR Splinter Twin:symr::symu:
:symu::symw::symr:UWR Control:symr::symw::symu:
What's the best way for UR Twin (all-in combo version) to deal with Planeswalkers? Mostly a T3 Liliana.
Negate/Counterflux in SB?...Boomerang main stalls a bit...
Any other specific SB tech?
Izzet Charm is pretty good at stopping Turn 3 Lilianas. Obviously, Remand helps you stall until you find an Izzet Charm (and even losing one less card to Lili helps).
If Liliana comes down too late, you can combo off right through her, especially if your combo protection is named Spellskite.
And never underestimate how often you have a nuts hand when they tap out for Liliana. (Smart players shouldn't tap out for Liliana as long as we have 3+ lands, so that should delay her to Turn 4 fairly often.)
I liked Peek in the tempo build simply because I would sometimes Snap it in, which I would never do if it were a sorcery, like Sleight Of Hand or Gitaxian Probe.
That being said, given my virtually Jund-free meta, I'm considering running this next week...
Was thinking of replacing Remand #4 with Probe #4, but that might not be wise.
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Vintage: Blue Belcher, Mentor Remora, Burning Long
Legacy: ANT, Sneak and Show, Omnitell, Oops All Spells
Modern: Grishoalbrand, Infect, UR Storm, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control
Can you sense the pattern here?
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In Twin, I can't imagine wanting it over a counterspell or a Spellskite on turn two.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
I definitely don't like Pyromancer, because I don't like cards that don't contribute towards the plan of playing and protecting the combo.
You find more combo pieces via mulligans and just putting enough copies in your deck than you do by using cantrips
Modern Decks:
:symu::symr:UR Splinter Twin:symr::symu:
:symu::symw::symr:UWR Control:symr::symw::symu:
Cryptic Command is never(rarely) protecting the combo so it's more likely slowing opponents board progression, it seems justifiable while control or tempo'ing when it's competing with trash cantrip/filter slots.
Tempo Twin v1.0
5 Island
1 Mountain
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
1 Stomping Ground
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Desolate Lighthouse
4 Pestermite
2 Breaching Hippocamp
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Enchantment
4 Splinter Twin
Instant/Sorcery
3 Remand
2 Dispel
2 Cryptic Command
2 Izzet Charm
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Flame Slash
4 Sleight of Hand
There are 2 paths to victory for this deck. First of all, is to use Pestermite and Breaching Hippocamp 2 and 3 power respectively to kill the opponents. .
The other path to victory is to combo them out by protecting the combo using counterspells and Teferi.
Still testing it and hopefully it will be successful.
Is there any reason why you omit Deceiver Exarch and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker? Just curious. [card]Breaching Hippocamp seems interesting but I'm not really sure beating on the ground is the best way to go in this meta. It can be hard to count on. The 4 mana makes it a turn slower to combo out as well.
Modern Decks:
:symu::symr:UR Splinter Twin:symr::symu:
:symu::symw::symr:UWR Control:symr::symw::symu:
Please, please, please tell me what I'm doing wrong with my sideboarding. I feel I am being an idiot at it.
Here's my list, for reference:
Tempo Twin
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
1 Stomping Ground
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Desolate Lighthouse
Creatures
4 Deceiving Exarch
3 Pestermite
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Splinter Twin
Instant/Sorcery
4 Remand
3 Dispel
2 Peek
1 Cryptic Command
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Flame Slash
4 Serum Visions
2 Blood Moon
2 Negate
2 Batterskull
2 Pyroclasm
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Cryptic Command
1 Dismember
1 Flame Slash
1 Spellskite
1 Mizzium Skin
Round 1, versus a standard (Theros, mostly) WG deck with Path To Exile (1-2):
Game 1, I grind out a game with bolts, slashes, and snapcasters and had an Exarch on the table until I managed to topdeck a Peek into a Splinter Twin 10 turns in. I couldn't find a cantrip or a Splinter Twin for a loooong time.
Side In: 2 Blood Moon, 2 Batterskull, 1 Flame Slash
Side Out: 1 Pestermite, 1 Kiki-Jiki, 1 Dispel, 1 Vendilion Clique, 1 Splinter Twin
Game 2, I again couldn't find half my combo. I had a Twin, but no critter to put it on except Snapcaster, and I was staring down an indestructible Monstrous Kitty. Blood Moon didn't do well for me this time since he lucked into basics from turn 1.
Side In: 1 Kiki-Jiki, 1 Splinter Twin
Side Out: 2 Blood Moon
Game 3, I had Exarch Needled, and put Splinter Twin on it, waiting to bounce the artifact when I topdecked a Cryptic Command on my penultimate turn. I had Island, Mountain, Desolate Lighthouse, Sulfur Falls as my lands. Turn 5, I topdecked a land, all right: a Tectonic Edge. Crud.
0-1
Round 2, versus some Angel Combo deck. Had no idea what it was, honestly. (2-0)
Game 1, I would just cantrip and Remand, and assembled the combo on Turn 4, seeing as he was tapped out.
Side In: 1 Cryptic command
Side Out: 1 Flame Slash
Game 2, I goldfished again. Four turns.
1-1
Round 3, versus Boggle
Never fought Boggle before. It was frustrating. :|
Game 1, he mulled to 4(!) but I never found a second cantrip or a Splinter Twin until I died.
Side In: 2 Pyroclasm, 2 Negate, 1 Spellskite
Side Out: 2 Flame Slash, 3 Lightning Bolt
Game 2, I opened with Pyroclasm and Snapcaster in hand, he opened with Boggle. I wasn't ablke to race the Boggles, as he had 2 of those critters, and 1 of them had Totem Armor, so I had to Clasm and Snapclasm it. It still wasn't good enough.
1-2
Round 4, versus Lingering Souls
Game 1, I managed to grind out via aggro with Vendilion Clique wearing a Splinter Twin to cycle through my deck. I won via Bolt, Snapcaster Bolt.
Side In: 2 Pyroclasm, 2 Negate,
Side out: 2 Flame Slash, 2 Dispel
Game 2, he overran me with tokens. I couldn't combo out because he had a Soul Sister critter and I only had Exarch to combo with, so meh.
Game 3, I conceded because it was feeling pretty pointless to grind the game out when the tournament winners were already done with their game, and we already held our prize payouts for the tourney.
The advice I need is simple: sideboarding, and how often would you mull a hand with half the combo but no cantrips to work with?
Legacy: ANT, Sneak and Show, Omnitell, Oops All Spells
Modern: Grishoalbrand, Infect, UR Storm, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control
Can you sense the pattern here?
Tokens - Could use a ratchet bomb
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
Almost a year ago, I sold out of magic all together. Less than a month ago, I decided to get back into it, and started on standard. Bought back in, completed a competitive deck, and decided to start on modern. I spent a couple of days looking over recent dailies and events, and decided I liked the look of uwr twin, so started buying into it. I have almost completed picking up the parts for the deck, and now realize... I don't want to be playing it. From what almost everyone is saying the uwr version is pretty bad, and I don't enjoy the all in combo version.
The thing I am still unsure on is the UR tempo version though. It seems almost everyone contributing to this thread plays either full in combo, or plays uwr twin and even admits it's not as good. What about the UR tempo? Is it as effective? Or should I go ahead and start aggressively trading off of all my new toys into another deck (likely pod)?
Thanks for any insights
I hear Kiki Pod put in a good finish recently, and it has a bunch of the same cards
Great ideas! I have no use for Dismember since nobody runs Twin or Lin-Vala in my meta, and I really should have made room for an Engineered Explosives, to begin with vs. Tokens.
That being said, am I boarding out the right cards in sideboarding, or am I doing something woefully wrong? This is especially something I'm curious about in games where I'm boarding in Batterskull.
@havaok:
I just got into this thread, but I've mostly been playing the UR Tempo version in my weekly Modern tourneys. I've been doing decently for the most part except for this week, when I tweaked around with the deck a whole lot, kept a lot of questionable opening grips, and encountered some matchups like Boogle for the first time ever.
We can sling around ideas over the deck, if you want, but take everything I have to say with a grain of salt since I only started in Modern very recently. I'm more of a Vintage/Legacy guy.
Legacy: ANT, Sneak and Show, Omnitell, Oops All Spells
Modern: Grishoalbrand, Infect, UR Storm, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control
Can you sense the pattern here?
What was the GW guy's mana base like? Was it nearly all nonbasics like in GW Hatebears or was it mainly basics? If you saw lots of basics, I question boarding in Blood Moon.
Also, I'm surprised that you didn't swap a Dispel for a Spellskite against GW. Imagine Dispel if it could block Fleecemane Lion and it enabled Turn 4 protected combos--that's Spellskite in this match-up.
I'd also only recommend Batterskull against highly disruptive decks like UWR and Jund. I think GW Hatebears and that GW deck can be raced or combo'd out against more easily.
In game 1, I saw *exclusively* non-basics. That's why I boarded in Blood Moon.
As for Spellskite, you're right. I should have put in the second, and left Batterskull at home.
That being said, if the only deck I've ever seen run discard against me was the Lingering Souls deck (From the board, no less.), should I even bother running Batterskull in the board?
EDIT: Other decks commonly seen in my very small meta - Burn, GW decks of various flavors, RG Tron, Mono-U Tron, Scapeshift, Prime Time, Infect, and some horrible mill control UB deck with zero synergy for its card choices.
Legacy: ANT, Sneak and Show, Omnitell, Oops All Spells
Modern: Grishoalbrand, Infect, UR Storm, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control
Can you sense the pattern here?
engineered explosives should be in the sideboard somewhere.
so, why peek over g-probe? probe slows us down by one turn. the life loss is hardly relevant, as it doesn't matter if we win with 1 life or 20. make sure the last thing you untap is the thing that does the untapping, so you can untap a blue source for dispel or whatever to stop any shenanigans.
What's the best way for UR Twin (all-in combo version) to deal with Planeswalkers? Mostly a T3 Liliana.
Negate/Counterflux in SB?...Boomerang main stalls a bit...
Any other specific SB tech?
Peek is an instant. So you could know at EOT if comboing out is safe. Either way I see no need for either of these cards.
Modern Decks:
:symu::symr:UR Splinter Twin:symr::symu:
:symu::symw::symr:UWR Control:symr::symw::symu:
Izzet Charm is pretty good at stopping Turn 3 Lilianas. Obviously, Remand helps you stall until you find an Izzet Charm (and even losing one less card to Lili helps).
If Liliana comes down too late, you can combo off right through her, especially if your combo protection is named Spellskite.
And never underestimate how often you have a nuts hand when they tap out for Liliana. (Smart players shouldn't tap out for Liliana as long as we have 3+ lands, so that should delay her to Turn 4 fairly often.)
That being said, given my virtually Jund-free meta, I'm considering running this next week...
All-In Twin
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
1 Breeding Pool
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Desolate Lighthouse
Creatures
4 Deceiving Exarch
3 Pestermite
2 Spellskite
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Splinter Twin
Instant/Sorcery
4 Remand
3 Dispel
2 Flame Slash
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight Of Hand
4 Boomerang
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Blood Moon
3 Firespout
1 Negate
1 Counterflux
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Mizzium Skin
Was thinking of replacing Remand #4 with Probe #4, but that might not be wise.
Legacy: ANT, Sneak and Show, Omnitell, Oops All Spells
Modern: Grishoalbrand, Infect, UR Storm, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control
Can you sense the pattern here?