I'll also say, the biggest cards to me in the deck are easily identified.
1. Serum Visions that Scry sets up things and is the best 'scry' we can get.
2. Gigadrowse is everything we want, its cheap, it interacts and it scales.
3. Exhaustion is your 3 mana 'time walk'. Combined with Gigadrowse on an end step for good times.
4. Dictate of Kruphix simply better than a Mine as it can be set up to not give your opponent any advantage.
5. Temporal Mastery this is the key, and should always be run in 4. Blind Miracles off the top takes you from parity, or behind, to leading to wins.
Time Warp and Part the Waterveil (and Inkmoth Nexus) are central to the deck as well (and Jace imo now) but its the numbered list that to me, are 100% integral to getting us to the point of winning, while how we win, can be adjusted.
I win with Jace ultimate almost as often as I do via aggro (I run 3 Snaps, 2 Jace, 1 Waterveil). The one sided "mine with an upside/Azcanta/Vapor Snag" hybrid is beautiful.
Sphinx's Tutelage seems extremely lackluster. I wonder when he sides it in.
Alright so quick question.. is it wrong to run as foretold and 1-2 Dictate/Howling Mine in the same build? I find that going off with ancestral visions alone isn't enough.. trying to fix that
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Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Alright so quick question.. is it wrong to run as foretold and 1-2 Dictate/Howling Mine in the same build? I find that going off with ancestral visions alone isn't enough.. trying to fix that
I actually added two Howling Mines because having Howling Mine in play when you have Time Warp is really good, and I don't think that Search for Azcanta and As Foretold preclude the use of Howling Mine.
Of course, even if no one else supported it, it's worth trying out.
I've never felt good about dropping the mines/dictates. Cutting back in Mine for other engines like Azcanta or Jace, sure, but I would play something else, if I was dropping Dictates.
I am playing a 4x As Foretold and 4x Ancestral Vision build. I've gone from running 0x Dictate to 1x Dictate to 2x. Keep in mind, I'm new to the deck and the format in general. But after about 40 matches trying out different configurations, I think 2x Dictate is best.
As Foretold is still the best card to play on turn 3 but Dictate is a very good 2nd option. My experience has been that it is better to be overloaded on engine spells than extra turn spells, especially early on. Without one of those cards (or Jace) in play, taking an extra turn really doesn't accomplish much. Having the extra engine cards also helps insulate you from Thoughtseize effects.
Alright so I've been playing the deck a lot lately.. Luckily enough between a few friends of mine we have most of the modern established decks so play testing is fun lol
So in playing, I have to agree with you guys.. I started running 1-2 Howling mine in addition to the 1x search and 2x JtMS and it is nice to turn have a solid turn two play as opposed to having to cantrip to turn 3
I also really like a single terminus over the single living end that other versions run. I know the appeal in casting it for free with as foretold but I feel like creature decks only interaction with what we are doing is in enchantment/artifact removal so with As Foretold gone it takes forever to resolve a Living End as opposed to being able to miracle terminus
Other than that, I have no real thoughts on the deck other than that I love it! Hands down the most fun deck I've played in a while and a nice change since I've been playing mostly Jeskai Control and Elves for so long
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It's not just casting the Living End for free, but the fact that you can tutor for it with your Tolaria.
I do understand the benefits of that, however the main point is that without As Foretold you are at a complete loss and will lose before it is able to come off of suspend.. As opposed I think it is very manageable/easier to set up a miracle terminus given our card draw and brainstorm effect through Jace.
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I'd rather be in straight Ub, if I was worried about killing creatures. I dont see how messing around with Terminus, or As Foretold, is a stronger line than Fatal Push, or the tried and true stall till Combo time.
Round 1 vs. GB Elves. The GP Phoenix 25th place dude. Game 1, he kills me on turn 4. I played a single Serum Visions and a Spreading Seas, so it looked like UW Control. I win the next game at 2 life, fetching to 1 when I was taking Turns. Got there though. In the next game, he kept on 1 land and got punished. Firstly, I had Hibernation after Heritage Druid forced out a lot of creatures. He didn't draw lands and Exhaustions got there. Then I started drawing a lot of cards and did Turns. We were the last match, so everyone got to see what I was playing. 2-1.
Round 2 vs. Grixis Control. My variance vs. this guy has been rough the past 6 times I've played him. I'm literally scared to play him because of our draws vs each other. I stopped playing CoCo when he's here because it hits 0 creatures. Okay, enough. I miss on land drops and end up 1 Blue source (drew Mikokoro AND Inkmoth Nexus) from tapping him low enough to go off. Instead, he responds to the tapped lands by Cryptic Command, leaving another land untapped, then ScM/Countersquall on Dictate of Kruphix. I try to go off next turn, but don't have a draw an extra card effect or Exhaustion to try to get me there. In the next game, he does Inquisition of Kozilek into Collective Brutality into ScM/Inquisition of Kozilek. My double Remand, ScM, Cryptic Command hand gets torn to shreds. There is a turn where I Gigadrowse Tasigur after landing JAce and fatesealing up to 5, hoping that he wouldn't have Bolt with his last 2 cards, especially since I didn't see the card in game 1. He did, I lost the Jace and then failed on trying to take turns because I didn't have a draw effect, draw Exhaustion, or Cryptic Command. I don't think I could have won this one, but the first one could have been won if I played super tightly. I just kept waiting for Blue sources to Gigadrowse him, but ended up not getting them while he was getting them. Then I hoped he didn't have GAS, but he used all of the rest of his cards to stop me. So, my last thing was to try to take Turns without a draw effect and hope to get there. Nope. 0-2.
Round 3 vs. Green Tron. He mulled to 3 and I had Spreading Seas. He kept on 7 in the next one, but I had double Spreading Seas. He did Nature's Claim, but I had Remand for Karn and then after some Exhaustions, I went off easily. This seems like an amazing matchup, especially if we turn 2 Seas. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. RG Ponza (his own list). In the first game, he landed turn 3 Goblin Rabblemaster, but I eventually go off and some Exhaustions allow the haste token each turn to attack me to 3 life. In the next game, I double Spreading Seas some lands, watching a Utopia Sprawl fall off one. He does Boil, hitting 2 of his lands and 2 of mine. He gets out Blood Moon first. I go off, but fail to find lands early, then draw 6 straight lands on 3 turns. I end up going to the discard with 3 Dictate of Kruphix, 4 lands, both Terminus, and a Timely Reinforcements. I can't cast White cards because of Blood Moon. I discard, then watch a Goblin Rabblemaster swing for 17. In the final game, we both mull to 6. I keep on 3 Island, Dictate of Kruphix, Time Warp, and something else. Sounds fine, right? Nope. Turn 2 Stone Rain. Turn 3 Stone Rain. I draw a single land in 9 turns and lose to some Bloodbraid Elves. He did get a Goblin Rabblemaster in this game late, but it was too late to matter. I end up on 2 lands and Dictate in hand. No Serum Visions to be seen... 1-2.
Rough beats. I average close to 3-1 (outside of the past 3 months) here at this store, despite it being pretty competitive. I had prized mostly every time before the recent slump, but I know I didn't play the deck the best in Round 2 and had some variance due to poor shuffling. This is not the deck for poor shufflers.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
You run mainboard spreading seas? I haven't seen that but it seems cool given the importance of mana denial lately! Could you possibly post your build so I can see how you run it?
Also, what is everyone's take on Narset? I really like her as a 1x of with 2x JtMS.. Her rebound seems incredible when paired with extra turn spells/even a serum visions or something
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Narset was fine, but Jace is better and I'm not huge on more 4cmc cards in the list.
Hurting from Moon is a killer FCG. A huge plus to the mono U.
But White has better SB options. At least the Moon turned my Prairie Stream into a Mountain, so it didn't get killed with Boil.
Played UW Turns again (2nd time ever, outside of UG Turns years ago). 14 player MNM.
Round 1 vs. UR Pyromancer. I take enough turns and Exhaustion to get him in 2 games. In game 2, mid combo, I Gigadrowse 2 Tormod's Crypt, to which he uses 1 to get some useless stuff. Pretty easy games, just playing around Land/Bolt. Gigadrowse and Exhaustion are animals here. 2-0.
Round 2 vs. Burn. In the first game, I do Spreading Seas into Spreading Seas, Goblin Guide gets me 2 lands, and I go off safely after he got a bit mana screwed with 2 Islands. In the next game, it is similar. He is stuck on 1 land for a spell, it gets Spreading Seas, then it buys me time to Chalice of the Void on 1, then Chalice of the Void on 2. He does Exquisite Firecraft to put me to 4, but I go off and crack Elixir and take Turns. GGs. 2-0.
Round 3 vs. Green Tron. Do I really have to say what happened here? This is probably our best matchup in Modern. Exhaustion, Gigadrowse, Countermagic, Spreading Seas, him going to the discard step a million times and getting rid of GAS. Easy peasy. My friend told me that Phoenix doesn't even SIDE against Tron and he lost his first match vs. Tron after 2 years of playing Turns. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. Affinity. Game 1, he got there with quick pressure. 2 Ornithopter and 1 Signal Pest on turn 1 on the play. I did a Remand on an Ornithopter on turn 5 in case he didn't play anything else just to draw, but drew Temporal Mastery off the Remand. If I hadn't done it, that card would have been Miracled, I could cast Dictate, and then maybe go off. Instead, I had to try to go off with Time Walks without a draw spell and it didn't work. Got him in game 2 with a Stony Silence on turn 2. He did Stain the Mind on Exhaustion on turn 2 and was in a good situation to win, but I have enough time to set up the Turns combo. I lost the last game because he got a turn 2 Cranial Plating, equip to Skirge, swing me to 14. I hoped to Miracle Terminus, but I don't. I think I should have either tapped a land during his turn 2, with my Island and Gigadrowse, or his Cranial creature. I lost at exactly 3 life before I made it to turn 4. I also maybe shouldn't have kept with 1 Terminus and the only Spreading Seas left in my deck in my hand, but I had lands and Dictate. Pretty sure it was a mull, but then I played it wrongly too. 1-2.
I finish 3-1, which is not bad. I felt much more confident this tournament.
@idsurge - Phoenix says that the UW version is stronger because of the SB hate, but he just really ENJOYS playing Mono Blue Turns much more. He won a recent 400 person event, from what my friend is telling me.
**Also I gotta say that although your Avatar looks sweet, I prefer the Tempest Time Warp because it reminds me of when I got back into the game. I bought 2 boxes of Tempest, hoping for Time Warp. I ended up getting no Time Warp, but 8 Wasteland and 6 Intuition, which at the time were $0.50 and $1 respectively. I was SOOOO mad.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
1. Serum Visions that Scry sets up things and is the best 'scry' we can get.
2. Gigadrowse is everything we want, its cheap, it interacts and it scales.
3. Exhaustion is your 3 mana 'time walk'. Combined with Gigadrowse on an end step for good times.
4. Dictate of Kruphix simply better than a Mine as it can be set up to not give your opponent any advantage.
5. Temporal Mastery this is the key, and should always be run in 4. Blind Miracles off the top takes you from parity, or behind, to leading to wins.
Time Warp and Part the Waterveil (and Inkmoth Nexus) are central to the deck as well (and Jace imo now) but its the numbered list that to me, are 100% integral to getting us to the point of winning, while how we win, can be adjusted.
Spirits
Nice! List from here. https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpkyo18/gpkyo18-finals-decklists-2018-03-25
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//Creature (2)
2 Snapcaster Mage
//Sorcery (17)
4 Serum Visions
2 Exhaustion
4 Time Warp
4 Part the Waterveil
3 Temporal Mastery
//Instant (9)
2 Fatal Push
2 Gigadrowse
1 Boomerang
2 Remand
2 Cryptic Command
1 Howling Mine
//Enchantment (5)
1 Search for Azcanta
4 Dictate of Kruphix
//Land (23)
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Inkmoth Nexus
9 Island
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
1 River of Tears
2 Sunken Hollow
1 Watery Grave
1 Fatal Push
3 Collective Brutality
3 Thing in the Ice
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sphinx’s Tutelage
1 Dispel
1 Comandeer
Thats a seriously fun looking list. :]
Spirits
+ 2 Push, - 2 Giga
+ Boomerang, - Exhaust
+ Search, - Howling
Not sure I like River of Tears always struck me as just a cute 'fun-of'.
Side is very typical, other than 3 Brutality, which helps on the early rush decks.
The thing I'm thinking on the most, is the Warps. Full set of PtWV seems interesting.
Spirits
Sphinx's Tutelage seems extremely lackluster. I wonder when he sides it in.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Jace get's around that just fine as well. Yeah, not sure I see what the role of the card is.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
lol, it used to be my win con before part the waterveil existed
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
In a recent video, LSV says:
Of course, even if no one else supported it, it's worth trying out.
Spirits
As Foretold is still the best card to play on turn 3 but Dictate is a very good 2nd option. My experience has been that it is better to be overloaded on engine spells than extra turn spells, especially early on. Without one of those cards (or Jace) in play, taking an extra turn really doesn't accomplish much. Having the extra engine cards also helps insulate you from Thoughtseize effects.
2x Field of Ruin
4x Flooded Strand
2x Glacial Fortress
1x Hallowed Fountain
7x Island
1x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1x Plains
1x Scalding Tarn
3x Tolaria West
Planeswalker (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creature (3)
3x Snapcaster Mage
4x Ancestral Vision
1x Day's Undoing
3x Exhaustion
1x Living End
3x Temporal Mastery
4x Serum Visions
4x Time Warp
Enchantment (6)
4x As Foretold
2x Dictate of Kruphix
1x Search for Azcanta
Instant (7)
2x Cryptic Command
4x Opt
2x Stony Silence
3x Timely Reinforcements
3x Terminus
2x Thing in the Ice
2x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Spell Pierce
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Dispel
So in playing, I have to agree with you guys.. I started running 1-2 Howling mine in addition to the 1x search and 2x JtMS and it is nice to turn have a solid turn two play as opposed to having to cantrip to turn 3
I also really like a single terminus over the single living end that other versions run. I know the appeal in casting it for free with as foretold but I feel like creature decks only interaction with what we are doing is in enchantment/artifact removal so with As Foretold gone it takes forever to resolve a Living End as opposed to being able to miracle terminus
Other than that, I have no real thoughts on the deck other than that I love it! Hands down the most fun deck I've played in a while and a nice change since I've been playing mostly Jeskai Control and Elves for so long
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
I do understand the benefits of that, however the main point is that without As Foretold you are at a complete loss and will lose before it is able to come off of suspend.. As opposed I think it is very manageable/easier to set up a miracle terminus given our card draw and brainstorm effect through Jace.
Spirits
Round 1 vs. GB Elves. The GP Phoenix 25th place dude. Game 1, he kills me on turn 4. I played a single Serum Visions and a Spreading Seas, so it looked like UW Control. I win the next game at 2 life, fetching to 1 when I was taking Turns. Got there though. In the next game, he kept on 1 land and got punished. Firstly, I had Hibernation after Heritage Druid forced out a lot of creatures. He didn't draw lands and Exhaustions got there. Then I started drawing a lot of cards and did Turns. We were the last match, so everyone got to see what I was playing. 2-1.
Round 2 vs. Grixis Control. My variance vs. this guy has been rough the past 6 times I've played him. I'm literally scared to play him because of our draws vs each other. I stopped playing CoCo when he's here because it hits 0 creatures. Okay, enough. I miss on land drops and end up 1 Blue source (drew Mikokoro AND Inkmoth Nexus) from tapping him low enough to go off. Instead, he responds to the tapped lands by Cryptic Command, leaving another land untapped, then ScM/Countersquall on Dictate of Kruphix. I try to go off next turn, but don't have a draw an extra card effect or Exhaustion to try to get me there. In the next game, he does Inquisition of Kozilek into Collective Brutality into ScM/Inquisition of Kozilek. My double Remand, ScM, Cryptic Command hand gets torn to shreds. There is a turn where I Gigadrowse Tasigur after landing JAce and fatesealing up to 5, hoping that he wouldn't have Bolt with his last 2 cards, especially since I didn't see the card in game 1. He did, I lost the Jace and then failed on trying to take turns because I didn't have a draw effect, draw Exhaustion, or Cryptic Command. I don't think I could have won this one, but the first one could have been won if I played super tightly. I just kept waiting for Blue sources to Gigadrowse him, but ended up not getting them while he was getting them. Then I hoped he didn't have GAS, but he used all of the rest of his cards to stop me. So, my last thing was to try to take Turns without a draw effect and hope to get there. Nope. 0-2.
Round 3 vs. Green Tron. He mulled to 3 and I had Spreading Seas. He kept on 7 in the next one, but I had double Spreading Seas. He did Nature's Claim, but I had Remand for Karn and then after some Exhaustions, I went off easily. This seems like an amazing matchup, especially if we turn 2 Seas. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. RG Ponza (his own list). In the first game, he landed turn 3 Goblin Rabblemaster, but I eventually go off and some Exhaustions allow the haste token each turn to attack me to 3 life. In the next game, I double Spreading Seas some lands, watching a Utopia Sprawl fall off one. He does Boil, hitting 2 of his lands and 2 of mine. He gets out Blood Moon first. I go off, but fail to find lands early, then draw 6 straight lands on 3 turns. I end up going to the discard with 3 Dictate of Kruphix, 4 lands, both Terminus, and a Timely Reinforcements. I can't cast White cards because of Blood Moon. I discard, then watch a Goblin Rabblemaster swing for 17. In the final game, we both mull to 6. I keep on 3 Island, Dictate of Kruphix, Time Warp, and something else. Sounds fine, right? Nope. Turn 2 Stone Rain. Turn 3 Stone Rain. I draw a single land in 9 turns and lose to some Bloodbraid Elves. He did get a Goblin Rabblemaster in this game late, but it was too late to matter. I end up on 2 lands and Dictate in hand. No Serum Visions to be seen... 1-2.
Rough beats. I average close to 3-1 (outside of the past 3 months) here at this store, despite it being pretty competitive. I had prized mostly every time before the recent slump, but I know I didn't play the deck the best in Round 2 and had some variance due to poor shuffling. This is not the deck for poor shufflers.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Also, what is everyone's take on Narset? I really like her as a 1x of with 2x JtMS.. Her rebound seems incredible when paired with extra turn spells/even a serum visions or something
Hurting from Moon is a killer FCG. A huge plus to the mono U.
Spirits
But White has better SB options. At least the Moon turned my Prairie Stream into a Mountain, so it didn't get killed with Boil.
Played UW Turns again (2nd time ever, outside of UG Turns years ago). 14 player MNM.
Round 1 vs. UR Pyromancer. I take enough turns and Exhaustion to get him in 2 games. In game 2, mid combo, I Gigadrowse 2 Tormod's Crypt, to which he uses 1 to get some useless stuff. Pretty easy games, just playing around Land/Bolt. Gigadrowse and Exhaustion are animals here. 2-0.
Round 2 vs. Burn. In the first game, I do Spreading Seas into Spreading Seas, Goblin Guide gets me 2 lands, and I go off safely after he got a bit mana screwed with 2 Islands. In the next game, it is similar. He is stuck on 1 land for a spell, it gets Spreading Seas, then it buys me time to Chalice of the Void on 1, then Chalice of the Void on 2. He does Exquisite Firecraft to put me to 4, but I go off and crack Elixir and take Turns. GGs. 2-0.
Round 3 vs. Green Tron. Do I really have to say what happened here? This is probably our best matchup in Modern. Exhaustion, Gigadrowse, Countermagic, Spreading Seas, him going to the discard step a million times and getting rid of GAS. Easy peasy. My friend told me that Phoenix doesn't even SIDE against Tron and he lost his first match vs. Tron after 2 years of playing Turns. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. Affinity. Game 1, he got there with quick pressure. 2 Ornithopter and 1 Signal Pest on turn 1 on the play. I did a Remand on an Ornithopter on turn 5 in case he didn't play anything else just to draw, but drew Temporal Mastery off the Remand. If I hadn't done it, that card would have been Miracled, I could cast Dictate, and then maybe go off. Instead, I had to try to go off with Time Walks without a draw spell and it didn't work. Got him in game 2 with a Stony Silence on turn 2. He did Stain the Mind on Exhaustion on turn 2 and was in a good situation to win, but I have enough time to set up the Turns combo. I lost the last game because he got a turn 2 Cranial Plating, equip to Skirge, swing me to 14. I hoped to Miracle Terminus, but I don't. I think I should have either tapped a land during his turn 2, with my Island and Gigadrowse, or his Cranial creature. I lost at exactly 3 life before I made it to turn 4. I also maybe shouldn't have kept with 1 Terminus and the only Spreading Seas left in my deck in my hand, but I had lands and Dictate. Pretty sure it was a mull, but then I played it wrongly too. 1-2.
I finish 3-1, which is not bad. I felt much more confident this tournament.
@idsurge - Phoenix says that the UW version is stronger because of the SB hate, but he just really ENJOYS playing Mono Blue Turns much more. He won a recent 400 person event, from what my friend is telling me.
**Also I gotta say that although your Avatar looks sweet, I prefer the Tempest Time Warp because it reminds me of when I got back into the game. I bought 2 boxes of Tempest, hoping for Time Warp. I ended up getting no Time Warp, but 8 Wasteland and 6 Intuition, which at the time were $0.50 and $1 respectively. I was SOOOO mad.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Spirits