Both of you have clearly idetified our problem matchups and some of our best answers to them.
I have to add:
8-Rack: Usually wrecks our hand and grinds us down if we don't plant an engine early. Leyline is great. Chalice is also amazing against 8-rack. Plant it on X=1 before they land a rack and watch them scoop. Or plant one after and then start bouncing their racks so again they have to scoop unless they can win with mutavault beats which are usually too slow against us.
Affinity: Their average speed hand is usually too fast for us but only by a turn (usually). I have found Pollen Lullaby and friends will lock them our of their ability to win the game before we can go to combotown. Back when pump infect was 11-13% of the meta I was packing two Angelsong main and three Pollen Lullaby in the side. The main benefit was that it pushed my pump infect odds from unwinnable to slightly favored. It had the side benefit that it pushed my affinity matchup from slightly in their favor to a virtual bye. I think my record vs Affinity during Pump-Infect winter was something like 8-1 or 10-1. At the time I was packing one Kataki, War's Wage and one Stony Silence, So I was bringing in 5 cards vs them. A few hands they won because they brought in Negate, but overall they buckle to fogs.
More recently I've switched to Riot Control because it also helps against Ad Naueum, Scapeshift, Storm, and a few other decks that hit life totals in large chunks. It works wonders.
Personally i don't minder affinity top much, i have a good win rate against it. Gigadrowse and cryptic are very good. They have unbeatable draws of course, that is why it is still popular.
That's a big part of why I settled on fogs being the best answer. Their typical "unbeatable draws" lose to a well timed fog, and if they don't have a Negate/Spell Snare/Spell Pierce in hand, they won't be able to push damage through.
Eventually I came to realize that Vs any deck that relies on creature beats to win, Fog-Effects become cheap Walks. And we all know how much we would love to be able to put Time Walk in our 75.
Is there a concensus for what the better engine is between mines and as foretold with ancestral and wheel?
From what I can tell, As Foretold builds tend to be more focused on value grinding and turn spells like Savor the Moment than the traditional combo-control builds. As you pointed out the As Foretold builds are very powerful, but lack action without the namesake card. I like the more consistent/disruptive standard build than the value grind variation, but I haven't playtested with As Foretold. However, I do like the looks of running Chandra or any other impactful planeswalker alongside extra turns.
Here is the specific list I was talking about utilizing as foretold. I haven't seen any shenanigans with savor the moment though. It's a bit more all in than I'd like, Perhaps there should be ~4 cards that provide interaction to help with the hyper agressive matchups. https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/wheel-of-time-in-modern/
Pretty spot-on with the matchups in my experience.
Merfolk isn't 100% a lost cause, but it has become a pretty bad matchup ever since they've started playing more counters. It gets better if you splash for removal, but you have to draw it.
Burn isn't great, but better with the white splash. I would guess that people replacing their Eidolons with Shrines of the Burning Rage is overall good for us. Leyline and Chalice are the bomb; Mine, Exhaustion and Gigadrowse are bad.
Death's Shadow has game against any deck that isn't completely tuned to beat it, that's why it's so popular. Chalice is good either way, but I especially like the chances that the white splash has against it: Leyline is great, Path is great and Supreme Verdict gets around Stubborn Denial in Grixis (plus if you're really worried, you can go even harder with Celestial Purge or Blessed Alliance).
Elves is indeed a coin toss (speaking of which, going first is pretty important), but one that gets a lot more favorable with Supreme Verdict. Landing good Exhaustions is probably the most important thing in that matchup. You also have to be somewhat wary of Rec Sage.
Affinity is bad, lots of single target removal and Stony Silence helps though. On the play, you can just put Chalice on 0 turn 1 (if you draw it later, you might not need it anymore but on 2 it still shuts down Affinity's most threatening cards), but I wouldn't bring it in on the draw.
Storm is rough and doesn't get much better if you choose to play Remand. Chalice though!
Ad Nauseam is awful, but once again, Chalice shines (noticing a trend).
Your description of Vizier combo is very accurate. If they go for the Township plan, Turns should win. While we don't care about infinite life thanks to Inkmoth, if you have nothing going on, they're just going to scry the kill combo to the top.
Titanshift is about denying mana (Exhaustion is excellent), Leylines also improve the matchup.
And most everything else is indeed good, most importantly (in terms of meta share) Control and Tron, which is why you don't need specific sideboard cards for these matchups.
I really love this breakdown for the meta. If the Primer was regularly updated I would submit this response.
Anyways. How well do you think Authority of the Consuls would fare in our poor matchups? It's certainly capable of buying one turn or two off of Elves and Merfolk. The type of Burn build might not be effected at all, however Affinity sure would.
Now that Shrine of Burning Rage is hot (pun intended), it makes me want to take copies of Squelch out of my sideboard even more. I'm still debating on using that or Nimble Obstructionist as my go-to for blocking combos, planeswalkers, and fetchlands.
Thanks, but I think even a concise matchup "checklist" would have to be a bit more helpful, especially for the monoblue version and other splashes (btw, is someone out there still playing the red splash? seems like Lightning Bolt isn't doing so well right now).
Authority sounds alright against Burn, Merfolk and Affinity and I guess it's just about the only way you can beat the Bushwacker nut draw from Zoo on the draw. For the white splash, I found Tanarx's proposed sideboard tech of Pollen Lullaby more intriguing, I could see that working out (although it is softer to counters, should still be fine against Merfolk). That said, I wouldn't play either unless I was facing disproportionately high numbers of fast creature aggro decks.
Corroto and I often play at the same FNMs and he is still running the red splash. Lightning bolt may not be in the best spot right now but Chandra, Torch of Defiance is. She is a leverage card, an engine(a sub par one), a mana producer, a removal spell, and a win con all in one card. Hard to argue with that, especially when he cheats her out early with Simian Spirit Guide.
Since the fall in popularity of fast aggro I have moved away from the 5 fog package (2 main, 3 side) to just 2 Riot Control in the side. So far it costing 3 instead of 2 hasn't lost me any hands, and it preventing non combat damage has saved me several times so I am considering it an upgrade.
sorry guys i had to prepare an exam for the university and i wasn't able to connect much here i'm going to update the primer with some posts you guys made and the future ixalan spoilers if we get something good
Also, fingers crossed for Monday's banlist update. We can't explicitly talk bans/unbans here (against forum rules FYI, so don't reply to this comment) so I'll just allude that there are one or two safe options for release that would be *very* good for us. That's all.
Moreover, I sourced a couple of nice foils recently. Quite chuffed. The big ones that are eluding me (or just too damn expensive) are the Time Warps themselves. I guess they have casual value so there's always a market for them. Foil Chalice of the Void is actually just hideous. I have my playset of regulars but man I can't see myself getting foils anytime soon unless I trade in some of my other modern staples.
On a lighter note, I'm having an experimental season with turns over the next few weeks and I'll be trying to do a weekly tournament/fnm with the UW build, but trying different combinations of maindeck build, as well as incorporating some new sideboard tech. I'll give detailed breakdowns soon, as it may help the primer (always willing to help when I can). For example I'm considering geist of Saint traft as a sideboard option against board-light combo such as ad naus and titanshift. Couple of extra turns with a geist on the field and that's game, and it's immune to spot removal. This is the kind of untested tech that I'm experimenting with, I'll let you know how it pans out. Probably all rubbish but I'll have fun proving it, at least. That way I make the mistakes so you don't have to
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Also, fingers crossed for Monday's banlist update. We can't explicitly talk bans/unbans here (against forum rules FYI, so don't reply to this comment) so I'll just allude that there are one or two safe options for release that would be *very* good for us. That's all.
Moreover, I sourced a couple of nice foils recently. Quite chuffed. The big ones that are eluding me (or just too damn expensive) are the Time Warps themselves. I guess they have casual value so there's always a market for them. Foil Chalice of the Void is actually just hideous. I have my playset of regulars but man I can't see myself getting foils anytime soon unless I trade in some of my other modern staples.
On a lighter note, I'm having an experimental season with turns over the next few weeks and I'll be trying to do a weekly tournament/fnm with the UW build, but trying different combinations of maindeck build, as well as incorporating some new sideboard tech. I'll give detailed breakdowns soon, as it may help the primer (always willing to help when I can). For example I'm considering geist of Saint traft as a sideboard option against board-light combo such as ad naus and titanshift. Couple of extra turns with a geist on the field and that's game, and it's immune to spot removal. This is the kind of untested tech that I'm experimenting with, I'll let you know how it pans out. Probably all rubbish but I'll have fun proving it, at least. That way I make the mistakes so you don't have to
We can all cross our finger that they give us a new toy or two to play with tomorrow.
Now to pipe in about a topic we can actually discuss. When I tested Geist of Saint Traft it proved to be an excellent win con. The Geists main drawback is you don't want to attack it into a descent blocker. Our deck is uniquely able to tap and bounce blockers as a way of forcing damage through with our 6/6. Geist has the advantage of letting us push damage through starting as early at turn 4. So we don't have to wait until turn 10 to start swinging in for damage.
It still blanks most removal so that's a very good plus. Especially Fatal Push and Path to Exile.
It also works well against decks that like to wreck our hand with targeted removal. I've had my opponent cuss when he hit me with a turn one Inquisition and saw a Howling Mine, a Dictate, a Serum Visions, three lands, and a Geist. It didn't matter what he chose he was not going to be able get rid of enough problem cards to shut me down. Those hands where you know they are going to wreck your hand from turn one and then we are stuck there hoping to topdeck something good, it's one more thing to rip off the top off of your library and win with.
It is less than awesome against creature heavy decks.
It still doesn't help much against burn. Often I have had to use it to trade with Goblin Guide. Most turns after casting it you have to ask yourself if you can afford to attack or if you need to leave it to block a haster.
Most of the cards I test either do not make the cut or end up being only borderline playable. Geist made the cut with double thumbs up. In matches where we are just racing an opponent (combo decks) it shined the most.
Right now I am testing Delver of Secrets and he is also looking like he is good enough to play. It may end up only earning a single thumbs up.
I like the experimenting that people are planning on doing and the variety of Turns builds there are despite having an established "optimal" build.
What are people's thoughts on viable planeswalkers for Turns? Seems like Jace Beleren and Chandra, Torch of Defiance can both be effective and provide good utility. There's also the suite of planeswalkers that show up in UG variants. What about other planeswalkers like Ob Nixilis Reignited or one of the good Gideon's?
I like the experimenting that people are planning on doing and the variety of Turns builds there are despite having an established "optimal" build.
What are people's thoughts on viable planeswalkers for Turns? Seems like Jace Beleren and Chandra, Torch of Defiance can both be effective and provide good utility. There's also the suite of planeswalkers that show up in UG variants. What about other planeswalkers like Ob Nixilis Reignited or one of the good Gideon's?
I think the idea here is that the 2 you've mentioned are both engines and win conditions. Chandra probably wouldn't be playable if she want effectively a "2 mana planeswalker" and Jace is borderline already at 3. I think if they don't both help you get to where you want to be and win once you're there they aren't worth the slot.
Thanks, but I think even a concise matchup "checklist" would have to be a bit more helpful, especially for the monoblue version and other splashes (btw, is someone out there still playing the red splash? seems like Lightning Bolt isn't doing so well right now).
Authority sounds alright against Burn, Merfolk and Affinity and I guess it's just about the only way you can beat the Bushwacker nut draw from Zoo on the draw. For the white splash, I found Tanarx's proposed sideboard tech of Pollen Lullaby more intriguing, I could see that working out (although it is softer to counters, should still be fine against Merfolk). That said, I wouldn't play either unless I was facing disproportionately high numbers of fast creature aggro decks.
Here is my UR list. Im really pleased with it. Im considering cutting Serum Visions for 3 main board Chalice of the Void.
The spyglass artifact from the new set could be good. 2 mana, provides information which is useful when you want to go off and it stops a lot. Idk, I think it's worth a bit of testing anyways.
Has River's Rebuke been discussed already? Feels like something this deck *could* want, but basically just a 6 mana time warp 🤷♂️
And what are people's thoughts, currently, on the black splash for fatal push & collective brutality(SB)?
Has River's Rebuke been discussed already? Feels like something this deck *could* want, but basically just a 6 mana time warp
I would have to compare it to Time Stop, which I already refuse to play because it lets them untap. But River's Rebuke is a one sided bounce, and that is a huge bonus. If it were an instant I would be leaning more toward it being playable, but as a 6 mana sorcery I don't see it making the cut.
Possibly when combined with Quicken but even then I think that its still a no.
P.S. I have always wanted to test Quicken so I could end-step Exhaustions and Time Warps, but never got around to it.
🤔 sounds fun to me! Even an EoT Serum visions off quicken would be ok; you left up counter magic mana (or a bluff) and now profit from it. Maybe 1-2 quicken and 1-2 Rebuke as a trial.
I can see either this or chalice being useful to "handle" those 1cmc cards, with spyglass having more utility for PW's or other activations.
probably worth a test slot or two in the sideboard.
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I have to add:
8-Rack: Usually wrecks our hand and grinds us down if we don't plant an engine early. Leyline is great. Chalice is also amazing against 8-rack. Plant it on X=1 before they land a rack and watch them scoop. Or plant one after and then start bouncing their racks so again they have to scoop unless they can win with mutavault beats which are usually too slow against us.
Affinity: Their average speed hand is usually too fast for us but only by a turn (usually). I have found Pollen Lullaby and friends will lock them our of their ability to win the game before we can go to combotown. Back when pump infect was 11-13% of the meta I was packing two Angelsong main and three Pollen Lullaby in the side. The main benefit was that it pushed my pump infect odds from unwinnable to slightly favored. It had the side benefit that it pushed my affinity matchup from slightly in their favor to a virtual bye. I think my record vs Affinity during Pump-Infect winter was something like 8-1 or 10-1. At the time I was packing one Kataki, War's Wage and one Stony Silence, So I was bringing in 5 cards vs them. A few hands they won because they brought in Negate, but overall they buckle to fogs.
More recently I've switched to Riot Control because it also helps against Ad Naueum, Scapeshift, Storm, and a few other decks that hit life totals in large chunks. It works wonders.
Uw Taking Turns
The Bad Moon
Small Mardu Midrange
Big Mardu Midrange
Grixis Waste Not Combo
Bw 8-Rack
Bw Midrange
That's a big part of why I settled on fogs being the best answer. Their typical "unbeatable draws" lose to a well timed fog, and if they don't have a Negate/Spell Snare/Spell Pierce in hand, they won't be able to push damage through.
Eventually I came to realize that Vs any deck that relies on creature beats to win, Fog-Effects become cheap Walks. And we all know how much we would love to be able to put Time Walk in our 75.
Uw Taking Turns
The Bad Moon
Small Mardu Midrange
Big Mardu Midrange
Grixis Waste Not Combo
Bw 8-Rack
Bw Midrange
as foretold
Pros:
Asymmetric draw engin
Cons: relies on a single card with no surgical protection
"Howling mine"
Pros:
More redundancy
Cons:
Digs your opponents too.
I tend to lean towards my opponents not drawing cards and playing draw 7s in modern seems sick.
From what I can tell, As Foretold builds tend to be more focused on value grinding and turn spells like Savor the Moment than the traditional combo-control builds. As you pointed out the As Foretold builds are very powerful, but lack action without the namesake card. I like the more consistent/disruptive standard build than the value grind variation, but I haven't playtested with As Foretold. However, I do like the looks of running Chandra or any other impactful planeswalker alongside extra turns.
Commander: Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim Clerics BW, Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest Voltron RWU
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/wheel-of-time-in-modern/
I really love this breakdown for the meta. If the Primer was regularly updated I would submit this response.
Anyways. How well do you think Authority of the Consuls would fare in our poor matchups? It's certainly capable of buying one turn or two off of Elves and Merfolk. The type of Burn build might not be effected at all, however Affinity sure would.
Now that Shrine of Burning Rage is hot (pun intended), it makes me want to take copies of Squelch out of my sideboard even more. I'm still debating on using that or Nimble Obstructionist as my go-to for blocking combos, planeswalkers, and fetchlands.
Corroto and I often play at the same FNMs and he is still running the red splash. Lightning bolt may not be in the best spot right now but Chandra, Torch of Defiance is. She is a leverage card, an engine(a sub par one), a mana producer, a removal spell, and a win con all in one card. Hard to argue with that, especially when he cheats her out early with Simian Spirit Guide.
Since the fall in popularity of fast aggro I have moved away from the 5 fog package (2 main, 3 side) to just 2 Riot Control in the side. So far it costing 3 instead of 2 hasn't lost me any hands, and it preventing non combat damage has saved me several times so I am considering it an upgrade.
Uw Taking Turns
The Bad Moon
Small Mardu Midrange
Big Mardu Midrange
Grixis Waste Not Combo
Bw 8-Rack
Bw Midrange
hope you all guys had a happy summer
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
Also, fingers crossed for Monday's banlist update. We can't explicitly talk bans/unbans here (against forum rules FYI, so don't reply to this comment) so I'll just allude that there are one or two safe options for release that would be *very* good for us. That's all.
Moreover, I sourced a couple of nice foils recently. Quite chuffed. The big ones that are eluding me (or just too damn expensive) are the Time Warps themselves. I guess they have casual value so there's always a market for them. Foil Chalice of the Void is actually just hideous. I have my playset of regulars but man I can't see myself getting foils anytime soon unless I trade in some of my other modern staples.
On a lighter note, I'm having an experimental season with turns over the next few weeks and I'll be trying to do a weekly tournament/fnm with the UW build, but trying different combinations of maindeck build, as well as incorporating some new sideboard tech. I'll give detailed breakdowns soon, as it may help the primer (always willing to help when I can). For example I'm considering geist of Saint traft as a sideboard option against board-light combo such as ad naus and titanshift. Couple of extra turns with a geist on the field and that's game, and it's immune to spot removal. This is the kind of untested tech that I'm experimenting with, I'll let you know how it pans out. Probably all rubbish but I'll have fun proving it, at least. That way I make the mistakes so you don't have to
We can all cross our finger that they give us a new toy or two to play with tomorrow.
Now to pipe in about a topic we can actually discuss. When I tested Geist of Saint Traft it proved to be an excellent win con. The Geists main drawback is you don't want to attack it into a descent blocker. Our deck is uniquely able to tap and bounce blockers as a way of forcing damage through with our 6/6. Geist has the advantage of letting us push damage through starting as early at turn 4. So we don't have to wait until turn 10 to start swinging in for damage.
It still blanks most removal so that's a very good plus. Especially Fatal Push and Path to Exile.
It also works well against decks that like to wreck our hand with targeted removal. I've had my opponent cuss when he hit me with a turn one Inquisition and saw a Howling Mine, a Dictate, a Serum Visions, three lands, and a Geist. It didn't matter what he chose he was not going to be able get rid of enough problem cards to shut me down. Those hands where you know they are going to wreck your hand from turn one and then we are stuck there hoping to topdeck something good, it's one more thing to rip off the top off of your library and win with.
It is less than awesome against creature heavy decks.
It still doesn't help much against burn. Often I have had to use it to trade with Goblin Guide. Most turns after casting it you have to ask yourself if you can afford to attack or if you need to leave it to block a haster.
Most of the cards I test either do not make the cut or end up being only borderline playable. Geist made the cut with double thumbs up. In matches where we are just racing an opponent (combo decks) it shined the most.
Right now I am testing Delver of Secrets and he is also looking like he is good enough to play. It may end up only earning a single thumbs up.
Uw Taking Turns
The Bad Moon
Small Mardu Midrange
Big Mardu Midrange
Grixis Waste Not Combo
Bw 8-Rack
Bw Midrange
What are people's thoughts on viable planeswalkers for Turns? Seems like Jace Beleren and Chandra, Torch of Defiance can both be effective and provide good utility. There's also the suite of planeswalkers that show up in UG variants. What about other planeswalkers like Ob Nixilis Reignited or one of the good Gideon's?
Commander: Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim Clerics BW, Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest Voltron RWU
I think the idea here is that the 2 you've mentioned are both engines and win conditions. Chandra probably wouldn't be playable if she want effectively a "2 mana planeswalker" and Jace is borderline already at 3. I think if they don't both help you get to where you want to be and win once you're there they aren't worth the slot.
Here is my UR list. Im really pleased with it. Im considering cutting Serum Visions for 3 main board Chalice of the Void.
11x Island
1x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
1x Inkmoth Nexus
1x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1x Gemstone Caverns
Instant (8)
2x Cryptic Command
3x Gigadrowse
3x Boomerang
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Simian Spirit Guide
Planeswalker (2)
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Sorcery (15)
3x Serum Visions
3x Exhasution
3x Temporal Mastery
4x Time Warp
2x Part the Waterveil
Enchantment (3)
3x Dictate of Kruphix
Artifacts (3)
3x Howling Mine
3x Blood Moon
2x By Force
3x Chalice of the Void
1x Commandeer
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thing in the Ice
2x Graffdiggers Cage
And what are people's thoughts, currently, on the black splash for fatal push & collective brutality(SB)?
I would have to compare it to Time Stop, which I already refuse to play because it lets them untap. But River's Rebuke is a one sided bounce, and that is a huge bonus. If it were an instant I would be leaning more toward it being playable, but as a 6 mana sorcery I don't see it making the cut.
Possibly when combined with Quicken but even then I think that its still a no.
P.S. I have always wanted to test Quicken so I could end-step Exhaustions and Time Warps, but never got around to it.
Uw Taking Turns
The Bad Moon
Small Mardu Midrange
Big Mardu Midrange
Grixis Waste Not Combo
Bw 8-Rack
Bw Midrange
You're right though, it's probably crap..ooor win more.
probably worth a test slot or two in the sideboard.