Not trying to stir the pot at all here, but I dont think emakrul is a very good answer to infinite life... I would happily let you swing on my life total and go to a draw against my empty board. Inkmoth is a necessity.
I think Emrakrul beats infinite life by shuffling your gy into you library and having the opponent draw their deck as you keep denying them plays. Not sure there, but I don't think the idea is to cast and attack.
Then why not just run Day's Undoing if he is just going to toss him to the grave anyway? I am just really confused how it is considered more effective than PtWv on inkmoth. Maybe I am missing something?
Day's undoing shuffles both graveyards, while emrakul only shuffles yours. Essentially you win by decking your opponent. I don't think this is more effective.
Oh that makes sense. Then I guess I should change my question to why not run Elixir of Immortality and deck them with mines? Seems way more efficient than having to rely on a land that can just get ghost quartered. I see how it works, I just think you could achieve them same result easier.
The one advantage of having mill as your alternate wincon is that it will win through a Phyrexian Unlife and Solemnity being on the battlefield.
I think Emrakrul beats infinite life by shuffling your gy into you library and having the opponent draw their deck as you keep denying them plays. Not sure there, but I don't think the idea is to cast and attack.
Then why not just run Day's Undoing if he is just going to toss him to the grave anyway? I am just really confused how it is considered more effective than PtWv on inkmoth. Maybe I am missing something?
Day's undoing shuffles both graveyards, while emrakul only shuffles yours. Essentially you win by decking your opponent. I don't think this is more effective.
Oh that makes sense. Then I guess I should change my question to why not run Elixir of Immortality and deck them with mines? Seems way more efficient than having to rely on a land that can just get ghost quartered. I see how it works, I just think you could achieve them same result easier.
The one advantage of having mill as your alternate wincon is that it will win through a Phyrexian Unlife and Solemnity being on the battlefield.
Yeah I understand. What im saying is I think Emakrul is a bad reshuffle mechanic. I cant imagine a plausable scenario where you would have to reshuffle more than once that would justify Emakrul. I think the strategy is solid, but would be better without using a land that can be removed super easy. Poof no way to get Emakrul in the grave, gg. Granted inkmoth and be quartered too so... Elixir seems the most solid choice to me.
I think Emrakrul beats infinite life by shuffling your gy into you library and having the opponent draw their deck as you keep denying them plays. Not sure there, but I don't think the idea is to cast and attack.
Then why not just run Day's Undoing if he is just going to toss him to the grave anyway? I am just really confused how it is considered more effective than PtWv on inkmoth. Maybe I am missing something?
Day's undoing shuffles both graveyards, while emrakul only shuffles yours. Essentially you win by decking your opponent. I don't think this is more effective.
Oh that makes sense. Then I guess I should change my question to why not run Elixir of Immortality and deck them with mines? Seems way more efficient than having to rely on a land that can just get ghost quartered. I see how it works, I just think you could achieve them same result easier.
The one advantage of having mill as your alternate wincon is that it will win through a Phyrexian Unlife and Solemnity being on the battlefield.
Yeah I understand. What im saying is I think Emakrul is a bad reshuffle mechanic. I cant imagine a plausable scenario where you would have to reshuffle more than once that would justify Emakrul. I think the strategy is solid, but would be better without using a land that can be removed super easy. Poof no way to get Emakrul in the grave, gg. Granted inkmoth and be quartered too so... Elixir seems the most solid choice to me.
Then why not just run Day's Undoing if he is just going to toss him to the grave anyway? I am just really confused how it is considered more effective than PtWv on inkmoth. Maybe I am missing something?
Day's undoing shuffles both graveyards, while emrakul only shuffles yours. Essentially you win by decking your opponent. I don't think this is more effective.
Oh that makes sense. Then I guess I should change my question to why not run Elixir of Immortality and deck them with mines? Seems way more efficient than having to rely on a land that can just get ghost quartered. I see how it works, I just think you could achieve them same result easier.
The one advantage of having mill as your alternate wincon is that it will win through a Phyrexian Unlife and Solemnity being on the battlefield.
Yeah I understand. What im saying is I think Emakrul is a bad reshuffle mechanic. I cant imagine a plausable scenario where you would have to reshuffle more than once that would justify Emakrul. I think the strategy is solid, but would be better without using a land that can be removed super easy. Poof no way to get Emakrul in the grave, gg. Granted inkmoth and be quartered too so... Elixir seems the most solid choice to me.
You don't really need a land to use Emmy to shuffle your graveyard. If you have multiple mines in play then you could just discard her to handsize.
In the original timewarp deck that Farf used to stream years ago, it ran emmy with extraplanar lens (snow-covered islands) and would win by hardcasting emmy after chaining turns until turn 9.
I myself got used to that big mana and have kept lens in my deck, simply because it allows T4 warp and T5 PtW which significantly speeds up the clock. Clock isn't a big deal usually unless we are in game three, sometimes we can't chain turns fast enough. Makes more of a diffrence online though than paper.
Emmy's effect other than straight up winning the game usually was it's shuffle effect, which yes, went into your GY from discarding down to hand size. I'd also like to note that with lens emmy is turn nine and without lens but running PtW as a wincon,it too is turn 9. As I see it, its still a REALLY good wincon and if I had it I'd probably run it since I run lens.
I myself chose to run elixir's for the shuffle effect and it's also relevant vs burn and aggro decks to buy a turn or two since it can be played early. Not to mention it keeps you/opponent from milling you out.
All in all, I say old habits die hard.lol
No matter what version of turns it is, it's a blast taking ALL the turns.
We've had the emrakul/sanitarium discussion before (in the old thread) and reached a satisfactory conclusion. No need to re-hash old arguments.
The tl;dr was this:
- Xenob8 likes to build his deck a certain way
- It works for him (remember, magic is something different for each person & we all take different lines and experiences from it)
- Yes, part the waterveil is the "cleaner" deckbuilding option and doesn't leave 15-mana dead cards in your hand, but we all know that.
- Xenob8 counterweights the clunkiness of emmy by utilising a looting effect for reshuffling. It's not a perfect solution but it's a million times better than just running emrakul by it/herself.
- Yes, we know it's not "competitively optimal", but then on the day of a tournament, with variance and whatnot, who's to say what's optimal anyway.
My personal preference is to Leverage part the waterveil, as it combines your turns with your wincons and doesn't need an extraneous "extra" wincon using up precious deck slots. It's more conventional, but then that's just me. Xenob8 takes a different approach and not only is that OK, it should be encouraged. It's as simple as that.
Now that we've put that discussion aside, let's move onto new ideas:
I've been having more success (small sample size notwithstanding) since I dropped remand and replaced it with 3x path to exile and 1x commandeer maindeck. While giving them a basic might seem counter-productive, I've found it to rarely matter & removing a critical threat or combo piece matters a lot more! It's saved my bacon against shadow, elves, coco decks, affinity and random other decks, allowing me to effectively put up a defense against aggro and survive to the point where exhaustion becomes a road-block around turn 3.
The UB list that recently top-8ed used a near-identical strategy of dropping remand for 3x fatal push and 1x commandeer maindeck, so I nicked the idea and pivoted into white for the powerful sideboard options (stony silence, rest in peace, leyline, timely reinforcements etc)
I feel like the deck is in a really good spot, in the build that I'm running. A better spot than it's been for quite a long time. I was reluctant to ever drop remand as it felt almost sacrilegious, but I realised it's a metagame thing. Sometimes it's just bad against the field & in those times we need to adapt.
I think the maindeck is in the perfect spot right now. The singleton commandeer seems odd but it's prove itself to be worthwhile in the limited testing I've done so far.
The sideboard is the part that has changed and will probably change the most. Stuff like ghostly prison has flitted in and out of the SB on numerous occasions, and could come back. Likewise, supreme verdict was a staple in my sideboards for a while but I have also dropped that. This does open up a potential weakness to Eldrazi decks, maybe? It's hard to say. I feel like we are fairly decent against Eldrazi even without these cards. Exhaustion is a beating & path to exile really reduces their clock because they put so many resources into a couple of creatures.
Anyway I hope everyone is well. I'm enjoying turns more than ever, and I hope you all find similar enjoyment as well as success :).
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I prefer emrakul over elixir because of different reasons, one is that i can discard it eot, another is that if i get to cast it opponent scoops lol i attacked with her only once in 2 years and that because i asked to let me do so. I value the sanitarium interaction a bit more and to me sanitarium and emrakul works better than sanitarium and elixir since i d run the land anyway
Im not very happy with inkmoth because it started to eat more removal than usual and i wanted alternatives
I prefer emrakul over elixir because of different reasons, one is that i can discard it eot, another is that if i get to cast it opponent scoops lol i attacked with her only once in 2 years and that because i asked to let me do so. I value the sanitarium interaction a bit more and to me sanitarium and emrakul works better than sanitarium and elixir since i d run the land anyway
Im not very happy with inkmoth because it started to eat more removal than usual and i wanted alternatives
Being new to Turns decks, I didn't know about this interaction. There has been an upswing in the use of Ghost Quarters, so this makes sense.
We've had the emrakul/sanitarium discussion before (in the old thread) and reached a satisfactory conclusion. No need to re-hash old arguments.
The tl;dr was this:
- Xenob8 likes to build his deck a certain way
- It works for him (remember, magic is something different for each person & we all take different lines and experiences from it)
- Yes, part the waterveil is the "cleaner" deckbuilding option and doesn't leave 15-mana dead cards in your hand, but we all know that.
- Xenob8 counterweights the clunkiness of emmy by utilising a looting effect for reshuffling. It's not a perfect solution but it's a million times better than just running emrakul by it/herself.
- Yes, we know it's not "competitively optimal", but then on the day of a tournament, with variance and whatnot, who's to say what's optimal anyway.
My personal preference is to Leverage part the waterveil, as it combines your turns with your wincons and doesn't need an extraneous "extra" wincon using up precious deck slots. It's more conventional, but then that's just me. Xenob8 takes a different approach and not only is that OK, it should be encouraged. It's as simple as that.
Now that we've put that discussion aside, let's move onto new ideas:
I've been having more success (small sample size notwithstanding) since I dropped remand and replaced it with 3x path to exile and 1x commandeer maindeck. While giving them a basic might seem counter-productive, I've found it to rarely matter & removing a critical threat or combo piece matters a lot more! It's saved my bacon against shadow, elves, coco decks, affinity and random other decks, allowing me to effectively put up a defense against aggro and survive to the point where exhaustion becomes a road-block around turn 3.
The UB list that recently top-8ed used a near-identical strategy of dropping remand for 3x fatal push and 1x commandeer maindeck, so I nicked the idea and pivoted into white for the powerful sideboard options (stony silence, rest in peace, leyline, timely reinforcements etc)
I feel like the deck is in a really good spot, in the build that I'm running. A better spot than it's been for quite a long time. I was reluctant to ever drop remand as it felt almost sacrilegious, but I realised it's a metagame thing. Sometimes it's just bad against the field & in those times we need to adapt.
I think the maindeck is in the perfect spot right now. The singleton commandeer seems odd but it's prove itself to be worthwhile in the limited testing I've done so far.
The sideboard is the part that has changed and will probably change the most. Stuff like ghostly prison has flitted in and out of the SB on numerous occasions, and could come back. Likewise, supreme verdict was a staple in my sideboards for a while but I have also dropped that. This does open up a potential weakness to Eldrazi decks, maybe? It's hard to say. I feel like we are fairly decent against Eldrazi even without these cards. Exhaustion is a beating & path to exile really reduces their clock because they put so many resources into a couple of creatures.
Anyway I hope everyone is well. I'm enjoying turns more than ever, and I hope you all find similar enjoyment as well as success :).
I know the primer is still being worked on, but against which decks is chalice sided in for? I'm guessing mostly death shadow decks?
I know the primer is still being worked on, but against which decks is chalice sided in for? I'm guessing mostly death shadow decks?
Ad Nauseam, Burn, 8 Rack, Boggles, and Infect are some other decks you want Chalice for. It's also feasible to bring in against some fast aggro/zoo/stompy decks.
I am curious if anyone has been running UB Turns since Vegas and how it's been doing. The fatal pushes look like they would be great, especially with Snapcasters. I currently run Ratchet Bombs main instead, but they can't be flashed back
I'm going to put together a UB version this afternoon, I hope to be able to fit Ob Nixilis Reignited in though, but I have enough pet cards in my life already.
I've been playing other decks online lately, but I cannot stick to anything that doesnt have blue in it, its a personal failing...
EDIT: Has anyone tried Gideon of the Trials? I had thought about it before bed, but forgot till looking around at things this morning.
Yeah I understand. What im saying is I think Emakrul is a bad reshuffle mechanic. I cant imagine a plausable scenario where you would have to reshuffle more than once that would justify Emakrul. I think the strategy is solid, but would be better without using a land that can be removed super easy. Poof no way to get Emakrul in the grave, gg. Granted inkmoth and be quartered too so... Elixir seems the most solid choice to me.
I know we are past this, but when I was thinking of why Emmy over Elixir, the only thing I could think was it's harder to counter Emmy's reshuffle effect, needing something like Disallow, whereas there are far more counters that could hit Elixir. Not sure this is the actual reason, but its what I thought of.
Well you are in the right place, as thats not a pet card around here, its a a 4 of Lock!
The reason to play this deck (for me) is so we can play Gigadrowse and Commandeer. This whole deck is full of pet cards. Sometimes I feel like I just sleeved up 37 pet cards and the lands they need to work right...
Our early game sucks against aggro, this might be enough to buy us time is what I was thinking for mone U.
It replaces itself too and remand against aggro decks is usless really.
I'm going to give it a whirl anyways.
Im using a UW shell right now, and i personally prefer pollen lullaby as the fog card for the sideboard, for the following reasons
1- Given we have some high mana costed cards, it usually becomes a time walk with benefit ( creatures not untapping next turn )
2- Withing the clash mechanic, there is a hidden "scry" effect, which we can highly benefit from.
3- if the card comes from the sideboard probably i wont desire to cycle it in that specific matchup
Im actually using it as a 1-of in the sideboard but im thinking of moving up to 2
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The one advantage of having mill as your alternate wincon is that it will win through a Phyrexian Unlife and Solemnity being on the battlefield.
Yeah I understand. What im saying is I think Emakrul is a bad reshuffle mechanic. I cant imagine a plausable scenario where you would have to reshuffle more than once that would justify Emakrul. I think the strategy is solid, but would be better without using a land that can be removed super easy. Poof no way to get Emakrul in the grave, gg. Granted inkmoth and be quartered too so... Elixir seems the most solid choice to me.
Yeah I understand. What im saying is I think Emakrul is a bad reshuffle mechanic. I cant imagine a plausable scenario where you would have to reshuffle more than once that would justify Emakrul. I think the strategy is solid, but would be better without using a land that can be removed super easy. Poof no way to get Emakrul in the grave, gg. Granted inkmoth and be quartered too so... Elixir seems the most solid choice to me.
You don't really need a land to use Emmy to shuffle your graveyard. If you have multiple mines in play then you could just discard her to handsize.
I myself got used to that big mana and have kept lens in my deck, simply because it allows T4 warp and T5 PtW which significantly speeds up the clock. Clock isn't a big deal usually unless we are in game three, sometimes we can't chain turns fast enough. Makes more of a diffrence online though than paper.
Emmy's effect other than straight up winning the game usually was it's shuffle effect, which yes, went into your GY from discarding down to hand size. I'd also like to note that with lens emmy is turn nine and without lens but running PtW as a wincon,it too is turn 9. As I see it, its still a REALLY good wincon and if I had it I'd probably run it since I run lens.
I myself chose to run elixir's for the shuffle effect and it's also relevant vs burn and aggro decks to buy a turn or two since it can be played early. Not to mention it keeps you/opponent from milling you out.
All in all, I say old habits die hard.lol
No matter what version of turns it is, it's a blast taking ALL the turns.
The tl;dr was this:
- Xenob8 likes to build his deck a certain way
- It works for him (remember, magic is something different for each person & we all take different lines and experiences from it)
- Yes, part the waterveil is the "cleaner" deckbuilding option and doesn't leave 15-mana dead cards in your hand, but we all know that.
- Xenob8 counterweights the clunkiness of emmy by utilising a looting effect for reshuffling. It's not a perfect solution but it's a million times better than just running emrakul by it/herself.
- Yes, we know it's not "competitively optimal", but then on the day of a tournament, with variance and whatnot, who's to say what's optimal anyway.
My personal preference is to Leverage part the waterveil, as it combines your turns with your wincons and doesn't need an extraneous "extra" wincon using up precious deck slots. It's more conventional, but then that's just me. Xenob8 takes a different approach and not only is that OK, it should be encouraged. It's as simple as that.
Now that we've put that discussion aside, let's move onto new ideas:
I've been having more success (small sample size notwithstanding) since I dropped remand and replaced it with 3x path to exile and 1x commandeer maindeck. While giving them a basic might seem counter-productive, I've found it to rarely matter & removing a critical threat or combo piece matters a lot more! It's saved my bacon against shadow, elves, coco decks, affinity and random other decks, allowing me to effectively put up a defense against aggro and survive to the point where exhaustion becomes a road-block around turn 3.
The UB list that recently top-8ed used a near-identical strategy of dropping remand for 3x fatal push and 1x commandeer maindeck, so I nicked the idea and pivoted into white for the powerful sideboard options (stony silence, rest in peace, leyline, timely reinforcements etc)
I feel like the deck is in a really good spot, in the build that I'm running. A better spot than it's been for quite a long time. I was reluctant to ever drop remand as it felt almost sacrilegious, but I realised it's a metagame thing. Sometimes it's just bad against the field & in those times we need to adapt.
For anyone counting, here's my list:
4x temporal mastery
3x part the waterveil
2x cryptic command
3x path to exile
1x commandeer
4x gigadrowse
3x exhaustion
4x serum visions
2x snapcaster mage
3x howling mine
4x dictate of kruphix
1x mystic gate
3x prairie stream
1x hallowed fountain
1x glacial fortress
1x inkmoth nexus
1x gemstone caverns
9x island
1x mikokoro, center of the sea
1x oboro, palace in the clouds
2x stony silence
1x path to exile
1x rest in peace
2x leyline of sanctity
2x timely reinforcements
3x chalice of the void
2x engineered explosives
2x thing in the ice
I think the maindeck is in the perfect spot right now. The singleton commandeer seems odd but it's prove itself to be worthwhile in the limited testing I've done so far.
The sideboard is the part that has changed and will probably change the most. Stuff like ghostly prison has flitted in and out of the SB on numerous occasions, and could come back. Likewise, supreme verdict was a staple in my sideboards for a while but I have also dropped that. This does open up a potential weakness to Eldrazi decks, maybe? It's hard to say. I feel like we are fairly decent against Eldrazi even without these cards. Exhaustion is a beating & path to exile really reduces their clock because they put so many resources into a couple of creatures.
Anyway I hope everyone is well. I'm enjoying turns more than ever, and I hope you all find similar enjoyment as well as success :).
I prefer emrakul over elixir because of different reasons, one is that i can discard it eot, another is that if i get to cast it opponent scoops lol i attacked with her only once in 2 years and that because i asked to let me do so. I value the sanitarium interaction a bit more and to me sanitarium and emrakul works better than sanitarium and elixir since i d run the land anyway
Im not very happy with inkmoth because it started to eat more removal than usual and i wanted alternatives
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
Being new to Turns decks, I didn't know about this interaction. There has been an upswing in the use of Ghost Quarters, so this makes sense.
I know the primer is still being worked on, but against which decks is chalice sided in for? I'm guessing mostly death shadow decks?
Commander
U Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
RG Zilortha, Strength Incarnate
WB Amalia Benavides Aguirre
I'm going to put together a UB version this afternoon, I hope to be able to fit Ob Nixilis Reignited in though, but I have enough pet cards in my life already.
I've been playing other decks online lately, but I cannot stick to anything that doesnt have blue in it, its a personal failing...
EDIT: Has anyone tried Gideon of the Trials? I had thought about it before bed, but forgot till looking around at things this morning.
Spirits
Spirits
I know we are past this, but when I was thinking of why Emmy over Elixir, the only thing I could think was it's harder to counter Emmy's reshuffle effect, needing something like Disallow, whereas there are far more counters that could hit Elixir. Not sure this is the actual reason, but its what I thought of.
The reason to play this deck (for me) is so we can play Gigadrowse and Commandeer. This whole deck is full of pet cards. Sometimes I feel like I just sleeved up 37 pet cards and the lands they need to work right...
Uw Taking Turns
The Bad Moon
Small Mardu Midrange
Big Mardu Midrange
Grixis Waste Not Combo
Bw 8-Rack
Bw Midrange
And Time Warp is just awesome.
Spirits
Maybe decent only on the draw... If it was instant it would have been so much better
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
It replaces itself too and remand against aggro decks is usless really.
I'm going to give it a whirl anyways.
1- Given we have some high mana costed cards, it usually becomes a time walk with benefit ( creatures not untapping next turn )
2- Withing the clash mechanic, there is a hidden "scry" effect, which we can highly benefit from.
3- if the card comes from the sideboard probably i wont desire to cycle it in that specific matchup
Im actually using it as a 1-of in the sideboard but im thinking of moving up to 2