Mine diversity is important too
I play 4 different mine effect other than 4 dictate.(4 dictate 1 jace 1 howling 1 Mikokoro 1 sanitarium)If playing against heavy discard deck i Also try to Milligan mines away from the starting hand
thing is though, Mines are great against discard heavy decks. you main path to victory is slamming one on the table. i'm not sure mulliganing them away is necessarily the right thing to do (especially if you're on the play).
Agreed, there are many hands where I have kept because I hand: Land, Land, Howling Mine. To mully away mine effects is silly. I can only hope he meant to say mully away turns spells in his opening hand......
True, Sanitarium is not an actual Mine, netting us a card, however it is perfectly fine as a dig tool if flooding on useless cards during the combo. An edge case, but not once has Sanitarium LOST ME a game, while it HAS won me a (greater than one) game.
As long as its understood what its used for, its not detrimental to the deck, imo.
in the same way as idsurge said, sanitarium won me games and i never lost one do to it. you don't want it to call mine? whatever? okay it still provides a card that can change the game and we were disccusing this. because i can tell you that if someone extracts all your 4 dictates you really would a sanitarium in play to dig for better cards. abviously you would prefer howling mine or mikokoro, that's sure. but since playing 2 mikokoro is a bad thing i prefer to have both of them and it is better than nothing
late game having +3 instead of +4 every turn changes NOTHING so sanitarium is a nice addition anyway, early game if i'm losing sanitarium is able to find me a card that wins me the game (and it happened some times, i remember a turn 3 eot sanitaium drawing me a exhaustion and a serum vision during the natural draw setting up a mastery. magic? yeah it happens once a year but i would have lost that game if not for sanitarium). i'd play it even without emrakul in the 75. actually i think i play emrakul because i want to optimize every card i play and that way i push sanitarium a little bit more
if i know that my opponent goes for discard on mine effect i shuffle them back in the deck btw. it is a lot risky and not always doable and really depends on how game 1 went, but since i can't play them before turn 3/4 and i play 6 mines + 2 pseudo land mines and i play visions and draw cards (like remand) *most* of the time i just draw a mine when i have mana to cast it asap
also yes, nephalia is good as well and i cut gemstones in its favor! still sometimes play gemstone in side tho for giggles if i'm on the draw, but it has become more of a pet card now
I have been playing the list below that is largely based on Ewaldh's list. I have been running it through the tournament practice room on modo to develop a better sense of the different lines of play. It's been going very well. Going to start making notes in various matches so that I can develop a better sense of what decks I have problems with before taking it into a league.
The main change that I have made is dropping the sleight of hand, for censors. Has anyone else tried making that change in their deck? What's the thought regarding this? It's obviously not good at digging for wincons, but it provides some flexibility.
Any suggestions regarding deck changes are welcome.
actually i think i play emrakul because i want to optimize every card i play and that way i push sanitarium a little bit more
The irony here is that Emrakul can not be optimalized and is a wasted card slot.
the irony here is that it seems nobody read what i told so many times in the past about me playing emrakul because i want a maindeck answer to infinite life that is not inkmoth nexus and i need spots in the 60 in order to put in 3-5 creatures game 2/3 and i chose a couple of cards that are easy to side out for this very reason and yeah i'd call that optimization
The main change that I have made is dropping the sleight of hand, for censors. Has anyone else tried making that change in their deck? What's the thought regarding this? It's obviously not good at digging for wincons, but it provides some flexibility.
Any suggestions regarding deck changes are welcome.
Those are some interesting card selections. I would normally suggest playing dictates or mines over Ancestral Visions, but the play style of your deck is completely different.
I would recommend Remand over Censor though. Ultimately all we need to do is stall them, so it works nicely to do that against Moses decks, plus it replaces itself.
In my humble opinion you need more ways to interact with the opponents board state. The first five turns are normally all about interacting with and disrupting your opponent's board state. Merely having everyone discard and draw more isn't going to stop you dying.
I am interested to hear how the deck works for you though, so once you've played some leagues let us know
Agreed with this poster's assessment. I don't see any ways to meaningfully interact with aggro decks before they win. Things like 8Whack, Zoo variants, Combo, Affinity, and even Infect all seem to have free G1 wins. Do you have access to Hurkyl's Recall? It's one of the best hate cards we have which is nice in blue. Quite a bit cheaper than By Force, especially when clearing a whole board.
The main change that I have made is dropping the sleight of hand, for censors. Has anyone else tried making that change in their deck? What's the thought regarding this? It's obviously not good at digging for wincons, but it provides some flexibility.
Any suggestions regarding deck changes are welcome.
Those are some interesting card selections. I would normally suggest playing dictates or mines over Ancestral Visions, but the play style of your deck is completely different.
I would recommend Remand over Censor though. Ultimately all we need to do is stall them, so it works nicely to do that against Moses decks, plus it replaces itself.
In my humble opinion you need more ways to interact with the opponents board state. The first five turns are normally all about interacting with and disrupting your opponent's board state. Merely having everyone discard and draw more isn't going to stop you dying.
I am interested to hear how the deck works for you though, so once you've played some leagues let us know
Agreed with this poster's assessment. I don't see any ways to meaningfully interact with aggro decks before they win. Things like 8Whack, Zoo variants, Combo, Affinity, and even Infect all seem to have free G1 wins. Do you have access to Hurkyl's Recall? It's one of the best hate cards we have which is nice in blue. Quite a bit cheaper than By Force, especially when clearing a whole board.
Hurkyl's hasn't impressed me much in the past, but I can see it's usefulness in dealing with Affinity. Which do you think is better at dealing with aether vial? Is the tempo loss from being hit by hurkly's enough?
As for interaction, I agree that G1 is bad and often leads to me siding in half of my sideboard. I have removed the censors, and added two remands, and two gigadrowses to help with some interaction. Perhaps I drop one wheel for a main deck living end, or restore balance as well.
**Another reason why I use By Force over Hurkyl's is to deal with chalices on 0, which defintiely hurts my deck, and makes it hard to dig and sift through my deck.
Here's another trick. A lot of players here will never ever leave their Cryptic Commands in the sideboard, seeing them as too valuable in G1. In the case of your deck, you're using Wheels as a draw engine, and As Foretold as a value engine. Your curve is already so high, I think that Dispel, Unsubstantiate, more Remands, Censor again, or any other number of cheap interactive spells would be really beneficial to your G1 stats.
Here's another trick. A lot of players here will never ever leave their Cryptic Commands in the sideboard, seeing them as too valuable in G1. In the case of your deck, you're using Wheels as a draw engine, and As Foretold as a value engine. Your curve is already so high, I think that Dispel, Unsubstantiate, more Remands, Censor again, or any other number of cheap interactive spells would be really beneficial to your G1 stats.
So far control isn't too bad because of gigadrowse. I wish I had room for all 4.
I have been playing the list below that is largely based on Ewaldh's list. I have been running it through the tournament practice room on modo to develop a better sense of the different lines of play. It's been going very well. Going to start making notes in various matches so that I can develop a better sense of what decks I have problems with before taking it into a league.
The main change that I have made is dropping the sleight of hand, for censors. Has anyone else tried making that change in their deck? What's the thought regarding this? It's obviously not good at digging for wincons, but it provides some flexibility.
Any suggestions regarding deck changes are welcome.
So I played this for a while online as well. I'm curious as to how you thought the Wheel of Fate plays? I didn't care for it all. I understand the reasoning behind playing it, but I saw no advantage to ever suspend it and there were a lot of match-ups that I easily sided it out (burn, DS, etc.). It only seemed playable during the combo turns (or as an act of desperation). I love As Foretold, but I just couldn't see it being good enough. I've been playing UB and loving the ability to have some early interaction as well as hit the combo. I feel it's much better positioned right now.
From my perspective, I wouldn't drop the Sleight of Hand as the most important card for you to find and stick early is As Foretold. Without it, you really can't get going. Censor isn't good enough, imo. Remand... maybe. I also like the idea of Supreme Will, but I think 3 is too much for this deck to get the utility.
As others have said, I think early interaction is a key. If I were to go this route again, I would drop some combination of draw 7s (4 Wheels and 2 Day's Undoing is too much), add Remand, Gigadrowse (as you added to the Sleight slots), and I'd see if you could find space for at least 1 Part the Waterveil along with an Inkmoth Nexus. I've found this mini-combo to be totally worth the slots.
I have been playing the list below that is largely based on Ewaldh's list. I have been running it through the tournament practice room on modo to develop a better sense of the different lines of play. It's been going very well. Going to start making notes in various matches so that I can develop a better sense of what decks I have problems with before taking it into a league.
The main change that I have made is dropping the sleight of hand, for censors. Has anyone else tried making that change in their deck? What's the thought regarding this? It's obviously not good at digging for wincons, but it provides some flexibility.
Any suggestions regarding deck changes are welcome.
So I played this for a while online as well. I'm curious as to how you thought the Wheel of Fate plays? I didn't care for it all. I understand the reasoning behind playing it, but I saw no advantage to ever suspend it and there were a lot of match-ups that I easily sided it out (burn, DS, etc.). It only seemed playable during the combo turns (or as an act of desperation). I love As Foretold, but I just couldn't see it being good enough. I've been playing UB and loving the ability to have some early interaction as well as hit the combo. I feel it's much better positioned right now.
From my perspective, I wouldn't drop the Sleight of Hand as the most important card for you to find and stick early is As Foretold. Without it, you really can't get going. Censor isn't good enough, imo. Remand... maybe. I also like the idea of Supreme Will, but I think 3 is too much for this deck to get the utility.
As others have said, I think early interaction is a key. If I were to go this route again, I would drop some combination of draw 7s (4 Wheels and 2 Day's Undoing is too much), add Remand, Gigadrowse (as you added to the Sleight slots), and I'd see if you could find space for at least 1 Part the Waterveil along with an Inkmoth Nexus. I've found this mini-combo to be totally worth the slots.
I'll keep this in mind. I felt the same way about wheel until recently. It took a while, but I now love it. I don't ever side out more than one. I have dropped the four censors for 2 remands and 2 gigadrowses. Another remand would be nice. As for Sleight of Hand, I didn't like dropping it. Definitely not sure it's a good idea. I added Censors in it's place to provide some early possible interaction or to be a very poor version of sleight of hand without getting to choose the best of two cards. As for Part the Waterviel and Inkmoth, I have thought about doing this, and could perhaps drop one exhaustion, and the Gemstone Caverns for those two.
I have been playing the list below that is largely based on Ewaldh's list. I have been running it through the tournament practice room on modo to develop a better sense of the different lines of play. It's been going very well. Going to start making notes in various matches so that I can develop a better sense of what decks I have problems with before taking it into a league.
The main change that I have made is dropping the sleight of hand, for censors. Has anyone else tried making that change in their deck? What's the thought regarding this? It's obviously not good at digging for wincons, but it provides some flexibility.
Any suggestions regarding deck changes are welcome.
So I played this for a while online as well. I'm curious as to how you thought the Wheel of Fate plays? I didn't care for it all. I understand the reasoning behind playing it, but I saw no advantage to ever suspend it and there were a lot of match-ups that I easily sided it out (burn, DS, etc.). It only seemed playable during the combo turns (or as an act of desperation). I love As Foretold, but I just couldn't see it being good enough. I've been playing UB and loving the ability to have some early interaction as well as hit the combo. I feel it's much better positioned right now.
From my perspective, I wouldn't drop the Sleight of Hand as the most important card for you to find and stick early is As Foretold. Without it, you really can't get going. Censor isn't good enough, imo. Remand... maybe. I also like the idea of Supreme Will, but I think 3 is too much for this deck to get the utility.
As others have said, I think early interaction is a key. If I were to go this route again, I would drop some combination of draw 7s (4 Wheels and 2 Day's Undoing is too much), add Remand, Gigadrowse (as you added to the Sleight slots), and I'd see if you could find space for at least 1 Part the Waterveil along with an Inkmoth Nexus. I've found this mini-combo to be totally worth the slots.
actually i think i play emrakul because i want to optimize every card i play and that way i push sanitarium a little bit more
The irony here is that Emrakul can not be optimalized and is a wasted card slot.
the irony here is that it seems nobody read what i told so many times in the past about me playing emrakul because i want a maindeck answer to infinite life that is not inkmoth nexus and i need spots in the 60 in order to put in 3-5 creatures game 2/3 and i chose a couple of cards that are easy to side out for this very reason and yeah i'd call that optimization
Not trying to stir the pot at all here, but I dont think emakrul is a very good answer to infinite life... I would happily let you swing on my life total and go to a draw against my empty board. Inkmoth is a necessity.
actually i think i play emrakul because i want to optimize every card i play and that way i push sanitarium a little bit more
The irony here is that Emrakul can not be optimalized and is a wasted card slot.
the irony here is that it seems nobody read what i told so many times in the past about me playing emrakul because i want a maindeck answer to infinite life that is not inkmoth nexus and i need spots in the 60 in order to put in 3-5 creatures game 2/3 and i chose a couple of cards that are easy to side out for this very reason and yeah i'd call that optimization
Not trying to stir the pot at all here, but I dont think emakrul is a very good answer to infinite life... I would happily let you swing on my life total and go to a draw against my empty board. Inkmoth is a necessity.
I think Emrakrul beats infinite life by shuffling your gy into you library and having the opponent draw their deck as you keep denying them plays. Not sure there, but I don't think the idea is to cast and attack.
actually i think i play emrakul because i want to optimize every card i play and that way i push sanitarium a little bit more
The irony here is that Emrakul can not be optimalized and is a wasted card slot.
the irony here is that it seems nobody read what i told so many times in the past about me playing emrakul because i want a maindeck answer to infinite life that is not inkmoth nexus and i need spots in the 60 in order to put in 3-5 creatures game 2/3 and i chose a couple of cards that are easy to side out for this very reason and yeah i'd call that optimization
Not trying to stir the pot at all here, but I dont think emakrul is a very good answer to infinite life... I would happily let you swing on my life total and go to a draw against my empty board. Inkmoth is a necessity.
I think Emrakrul beats infinite life by shuffling your gy into you library and having the opponent draw their deck as you keep denying them plays. Not sure there, but I don't think the idea is to cast and attack.
Then why not just run Day's Undoing if he is just going to toss him to the grave anyway? I am just really confused how it is considered more effective than PtWv on inkmoth. Maybe I am missing something?
The irony here is that Emrakul can not be optimalized and is a wasted card slot.
the irony here is that it seems nobody read what i told so many times in the past about me playing emrakul because i want a maindeck answer to infinite life that is not inkmoth nexus and i need spots in the 60 in order to put in 3-5 creatures game 2/3 and i chose a couple of cards that are easy to side out for this very reason and yeah i'd call that optimization
Not trying to stir the pot at all here, but I dont think emakrul is a very good answer to infinite life... I would happily let you swing on my life total and go to a draw against my empty board. Inkmoth is a necessity.
I think Emrakrul beats infinite life by shuffling your gy into you library and having the opponent draw their deck as you keep denying them plays. Not sure there, but I don't think the idea is to cast and attack.
Then why not just run Day's Undoing if he is just going to toss him to the grave anyway? I am just really confused how it is considered more effective than PtWv on inkmoth. Maybe I am missing something?
Day's undoing shuffles both graveyards, while emrakul only shuffles yours. Essentially you win by decking your opponent. I don't think this is more effective, but it can work.
the irony here is that it seems nobody read what i told so many times in the past about me playing emrakul because i want a maindeck answer to infinite life that is not inkmoth nexus and i need spots in the 60 in order to put in 3-5 creatures game 2/3 and i chose a couple of cards that are easy to side out for this very reason and yeah i'd call that optimization
Not trying to stir the pot at all here, but I dont think emakrul is a very good answer to infinite life... I would happily let you swing on my life total and go to a draw against my empty board. Inkmoth is a necessity.
I think Emrakrul beats infinite life by shuffling your gy into you library and having the opponent draw their deck as you keep denying them plays. Not sure there, but I don't think the idea is to cast and attack.
Then why not just run Day's Undoing if he is just going to toss him to the grave anyway? I am just really confused how it is considered more effective than PtWv on inkmoth. Maybe I am missing something?
Day's undoing shuffles both graveyards, while emrakul only shuffles yours. Essentially you win by decking your opponent. I don't think this is more effective.
Oh that makes sense. Then I guess I should change my question to why not run Elixir of Immortality and deck them with mines? Seems way more efficient than having to rely on a land that can just get ghost quartered. I see how it works, I just think you could achieve them same result easier.
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UR Turns
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Agreed, there are many hands where I have kept because I hand: Land, Land, Howling Mine. To mully away mine effects is silly. I can only hope he meant to say mully away turns spells in his opening hand......
Uw Taking Turns
The Bad Moon
Small Mardu Midrange
Big Mardu Midrange
Grixis Waste Not Combo
Bw 8-Rack
Bw Midrange
As long as its understood what its used for, its not detrimental to the deck, imo.
Spirits
Spirits
late game having +3 instead of +4 every turn changes NOTHING so sanitarium is a nice addition anyway, early game if i'm losing sanitarium is able to find me a card that wins me the game (and it happened some times, i remember a turn 3 eot sanitaium drawing me a exhaustion and a serum vision during the natural draw setting up a mastery. magic? yeah it happens once a year but i would have lost that game if not for sanitarium). i'd play it even without emrakul in the 75. actually i think i play emrakul because i want to optimize every card i play and that way i push sanitarium a little bit more
if i know that my opponent goes for discard on mine effect i shuffle them back in the deck btw. it is a lot risky and not always doable and really depends on how game 1 went, but since i can't play them before turn 3/4 and i play 6 mines + 2 pseudo land mines and i play visions and draw cards (like remand) *most* of the time i just draw a mine when i have mana to cast it asap
also yes, nephalia is good as well and i cut gemstones in its favor! still sometimes play gemstone in side tho for giggles if i'm on the draw, but it has become more of a pet card now
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
The main change that I have made is dropping the sleight of hand, for censors. Has anyone else tried making that change in their deck? What's the thought regarding this? It's obviously not good at digging for wincons, but it provides some flexibility.
Any suggestions regarding deck changes are welcome.
1 Flooded Strand
2 Steam Vents
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
4 Sulfur Falls
8 Island
1 Mountain
Sorceries
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Serum Visions
2 Day's Undoing
4 Wheel of Fate
4 Temporal Mastery
4 Time Warp
4 Exhaustion
2 Cryptic Command
4 Censor
Enchantments
4 As Foretold
Planeswalker
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroclasm
2 By Force
2 Thing in the Ice
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Gigadrowse
2 Echoing Truth
the irony here is that it seems nobody read what i told so many times in the past about me playing emrakul because i want a maindeck answer to infinite life that is not inkmoth nexus and i need spots in the 60 in order to put in 3-5 creatures game 2/3 and i chose a couple of cards that are easy to side out for this very reason and yeah i'd call that optimization
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
As long as we have Turns being taken, a few cards as pet cards are defensible in any number of ways.
Spirits
Agreed with this poster's assessment. I don't see any ways to meaningfully interact with aggro decks before they win. Things like 8Whack, Zoo variants, Combo, Affinity, and even Infect all seem to have free G1 wins. Do you have access to Hurkyl's Recall? It's one of the best hate cards we have which is nice in blue. Quite a bit cheaper than By Force, especially when clearing a whole board.
Hurkyl's hasn't impressed me much in the past, but I can see it's usefulness in dealing with Affinity. Which do you think is better at dealing with aether vial? Is the tempo loss from being hit by hurkly's enough?
As for interaction, I agree that G1 is bad and often leads to me siding in half of my sideboard. I have removed the censors, and added two remands, and two gigadrowses to help with some interaction. Perhaps I drop one wheel for a main deck living end, or restore balance as well.
**Another reason why I use By Force over Hurkyl's is to deal with chalices on 0, which defintiely hurts my deck, and makes it hard to dig and sift through my deck.
So far control isn't too bad because of gigadrowse. I wish I had room for all 4.
So I played this for a while online as well. I'm curious as to how you thought the Wheel of Fate plays? I didn't care for it all. I understand the reasoning behind playing it, but I saw no advantage to ever suspend it and there were a lot of match-ups that I easily sided it out (burn, DS, etc.). It only seemed playable during the combo turns (or as an act of desperation). I love As Foretold, but I just couldn't see it being good enough. I've been playing UB and loving the ability to have some early interaction as well as hit the combo. I feel it's much better positioned right now.
From my perspective, I wouldn't drop the Sleight of Hand as the most important card for you to find and stick early is As Foretold. Without it, you really can't get going. Censor isn't good enough, imo. Remand... maybe. I also like the idea of Supreme Will, but I think 3 is too much for this deck to get the utility.
As others have said, I think early interaction is a key. If I were to go this route again, I would drop some combination of draw 7s (4 Wheels and 2 Day's Undoing is too much), add Remand, Gigadrowse (as you added to the Sleight slots), and I'd see if you could find space for at least 1 Part the Waterveil along with an Inkmoth Nexus. I've found this mini-combo to be totally worth the slots.
I'll keep this in mind. I felt the same way about wheel until recently. It took a while, but I now love it. I don't ever side out more than one. I have dropped the four censors for 2 remands and 2 gigadrowses. Another remand would be nice. As for Sleight of Hand, I didn't like dropping it. Definitely not sure it's a good idea. I added Censors in it's place to provide some early possible interaction or to be a very poor version of sleight of hand without getting to choose the best of two cards. As for Part the Waterviel and Inkmoth, I have thought about doing this, and could perhaps drop one exhaustion, and the Gemstone Caverns for those two.
Would you mind sharing your UB deck?
Not trying to stir the pot at all here, but I dont think emakrul is a very good answer to infinite life... I would happily let you swing on my life total and go to a draw against my empty board. Inkmoth is a necessity.
I think Emrakrul beats infinite life by shuffling your gy into you library and having the opponent draw their deck as you keep denying them plays. Not sure there, but I don't think the idea is to cast and attack.
Then why not just run Day's Undoing if he is just going to toss him to the grave anyway? I am just really confused how it is considered more effective than PtWv on inkmoth. Maybe I am missing something?
Day's undoing shuffles both graveyards, while emrakul only shuffles yours. Essentially you win by decking your opponent. I don't think this is more effective, but it can work.
Oh that makes sense. Then I guess I should change my question to why not run Elixir of Immortality and deck them with mines? Seems way more efficient than having to rely on a land that can just get ghost quartered. I see how it works, I just think you could achieve them same result easier.