That's a really good point regarding Chandra. Hadn't seen it from that point of view. I'll pay more attention and see if she seems more Win More. I will say that I rarely win with her ultimate because I usual win by smacking in with PTWV by then, so maybe she is bulky. However, I do like that her ultimate provides a backup plan to win when our opponent has Surgical Extractioned my PTWV. Plus, my only other 4 mana cards are two Cryptic Commands, so she is fine on the curve. There's a good chance, though, that she would be better off as another Turn card and another flex card (maybe a third bolt in my list).
I'm splashing Red for 2 Chandra TOD and 2 Lightning Bolt main, and then some red sideboard options like Pyroclasm and By Force.
Chandra has been an all-star for me so far. She can win games with her -7, but many times the value she provides makes it so I win before I ult with her. The best use of her is either on turn 4 and +1ing into a Howling Mine, or turn 7 (or when you have 7 mana) when you can add 2 red and cast a Time Warp. The value in those plays are so huge. Plus she can "draw" cards and act as a pseudo mine effect.
Planeswalkers are always going to be good with extra turn effects. That said, I have one concern with it here:
Once we start chaining turns, we have basically won, right? Our win condition is usually part the waterveil, conveniently a turn itself.
My concern is that Chandra as a four mana spell doesn't help you get to the stage where you can chain turns, and as a "card that gives you advantage when you start chaining turns" it's fighting for space with howling mine and dictate at 2 and 3 mana respectively.
Tough call, I'd say the deck potentially doesn't have to commit slots in the deck to Leverage cards like Chandra when the turn spells are all we really need & can dedicate those slots to cheap interaction or filtering. Right? Make sense?
The exception would be jace the mindsculptor. If Mr wallet sculptor ever reared his head in modern, we'd play it for sure.
Still, keep testing, keep brewing, keep iterating, keep thinking carefully in all your games whether the four mana planeswalker is necessary or whether PtW would win the game regardless. Its easy to get sidetracked by confirmation bias by winning games with a specific card and thinking the card is necessary. Truth is, this deck could probably win with Storm Crow if we wanted to build it that way, because of the nature of the deck. The difficult question is whether there is truly a better option that PtW in terms of win condition, and whether it's worth diluting the deck to include other options that may not be necessary.
I think this depends.
Adding Chandra to a stock Turns list, then, yes, I agree with what you are saying. As you said, once you hit turns, the actual win condition doesn't matter - you just need one.
But, if you are adding Chandra into something like Marcus Ewaldh's As Foretold Turns deck, then, no, I think Chandra becomes a synergistic win condition which is stronger than something like Part the Waterveil. She gives you mana, she gives you cards, and she gives you an emblem to win the game. The question comes down to what is the better meta-call at that point - Stock Turns or an Alternate Build Turns?
Yes, i have the same problem in mind. Whether they get rid of PtW or maybe get an ensnaring bridge in play that we only can bounce with cryptic we have no more win conditions. Maybe mainboarding 1-of lab maniac...dont know..
What im trying to say is that maybe we could use a secondary win condition in case PtW fails, and that could also be a non-combat win cond. Im cosidering Laboratory Maniac and Jace Beleren
I run both Chandra and Simian Spirit Guide in my UR list and the mana acceleration is a must. A unanswered turn 3 Chandra is gg most of the time. Btw I did not like Mystic Speculation. Serum Visions is the way to go.
I've been mucking around with this BUG version and came across temporal extortion as another turns card. The problem I see is it powering shadow decks if they take the life loss.
With urborg, tomb of yawgmoth it's a turn four warp spell though.
Edit-Pulled the deck out, here's where it's at so far. Still WIP.
I don't know if I should switch the leylines for scavenging ooze in SB.
The third beast within in the SB should be something else but I don't know what.
Ratchet is handy but narrow.Can definitely be swapped.
MB things are good, I tried arbor elf before birds and am happier with birds. I might try voyaging satyr in its place so chalice on one isn't so bad.
Narset is actually very easy to cast even needing white.I had stony silence in the SB for a bit and had no problems casting it turn 2 either.
Garruk helps with early ramp and later provides creatures for the beatdown strategy.
Ramping while having early interaction is powerful and allows for T3-T4 warps which is a nice change.
I feel it needs Jace,(maybe a second), without dictate.
I tried ancestral instead of serum first, still haven't decided what's best.
Witness and exhaustion are in the same slot, trying out both. I also want to try courser of kruphix in this slot.
The lands I haven't fine tuned yet since I'm still messing with the MB so much still.
It basically gives an opponent a free spell in their hand that reads: "pay half your life rounded up, counter target extra turn spell. Can't be countered"
And then they get to untap and do nasty things like win the game.
Most players would jump at the chance to pay life and counter your critical spells. It's not like we have a particularly threatening clock until we go off.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I run both Chandra and Simian Spirit Guide in my UR list and the mana acceleration is a must. A unanswered turn 3 Chandra is gg most of the time. Btw I did not like Mystic Speculation. Serum Visions is the way to go.
Could you provide your list? I wouldn't know what to cut for the Spirit Guides.
I run both Chandra and Simian Spirit Guide in my UR list and the mana acceleration is a must. A unanswered turn 3 Chandra is gg most of the time. Btw I did not like Mystic Speculation. Serum Visions is the way to go.
Could you provide your list? I wouldn't know what to cut for the Spirit Guides.
This is the list im currently running. I am still testing some of the flex slots with Lightning Bolt,Unsubstantiate, and Izzet Charm. Im also considering going back up to 3 steam vents, but it makes playing with Blood Moon hard post SB.
I run both Chandra and Simian Spirit Guide in my UR list and the mana acceleration is a must. A unanswered turn 3 Chandra is gg most of the time. Btw I did not like Mystic Speculation. Serum Visions is the way to go.
Could you provide your list? I wouldn't know what to cut for the Spirit Guides.
This is the list im currently running. I am still testing some of the flex slots with Lightning Bolt,Unsubstantiate, and Izzet Charm. Im also considering going back up to 3 steam vents, but it makes playing with Blood Moon hard post SB.
I guess I'm not sold that running Chandra is strong enough to disrupt the mana base for it. I would be more inclined to think maindeck Blood Moon would be a better reason, but Blood Moon doesn't really do anything to help Turns. Honestly, red's lack of answer for an early Death's Shadow makes it a difficult choice as a splash color here. Jeskai control only gets away with it because of the Bolt-Snapcaster-Bolt route to victory.
Likewise, while I understand your reasoning for SSG, if you are going to run acceleration, Chalice is a much better card to accelerate into. It disrupts more decks and creates a must answer presence in a lot of situations. Powering out a turn-3 Chandra sounds powerful, but it's not going to be as good against our toughest matches. It's also a shaky 'combo' relying on a 4-of and a 2-of. I don't mean to be overly critical, but the amount of times your going to land an non-disrupted turn-3 Chandra off an SSG is not high.
If you want to stick with this approach, I'd lose the SSG, add some combination of bolts and look seriously at adding Snapcaster Mage (Boomerang may be another iffy choice). I'd also cut the basic mountain for a fetch. You have no fear of Blood Moon and while you make yourself vulnerable to the occasional recurring Ghost Quarter or Fulminator Mage, it's going to be too rare to notice.
I run both Chandra and Simian Spirit Guide in my UR list and the mana acceleration is a must. A unanswered turn 3 Chandra is gg most of the time. Btw I did not like Mystic Speculation. Serum Visions is the way to go.
Could you provide your list? I wouldn't know what to cut for the Spirit Guides.
This is the list im currently running. I am still testing some of the flex slots with Lightning Bolt,Unsubstantiate, and Izzet Charm. Im also considering going back up to 3 steam vents, but it makes playing with Blood Moon hard post SB.
I guess I'm not sold that running Chandra is strong enough to disrupt the mana base for it. I would be more inclined to think maindeck Blood Moon would be a better reason, but Blood Moon doesn't really do anything to help Turns. Honestly, red's lack of answer for an early Death's Shadow makes it a difficult choice as a splash color here. Jeskai control only gets away with it because of the Bolt-Snapcaster-Bolt route to victory.
Likewise, while I understand your reasoning for SSG, if you are going to run acceleration, Chalice is a much better card to accelerate into. It disrupts more decks and creates a must answer presence in a lot of situations. Powering out a turn-3 Chandra sounds powerful, but it's not going to be as good against our toughest matches. It's also a shaky 'combo' relying on a 4-of and a 2-of. I don't mean to be overly critical, but the amount of times your going to land an non-disrupted turn-3 Chandra off an SSG is not high.
If you want to stick with this approach, I'd lose the SSG, add some combination of bolts and look seriously at adding Snapcaster Mage (Boomerang may be another iffy choice). I'd also cut the basic mountain for a fetch. You have no fear of Blood Moon and while you make yourself vulnerable to the occasional recurring Ghost Quarter or Fulminator Mage, it's going to be too rare to notice.
SSG isnt only to pump out Chandra. It basically let me pop off a turn earlier. So many plays can be boosted by it. EoT SSG for a dictate on turn 2 is an example. or being able to awaken up to 3 turns early with a combination of chandra and SSG all while being able to lock them out early game bouncing lands with boomerang. It works, trust. Swapping bolt for SSG is also completely viable and ive played both. I like the SSG build more however. Turn 1 Thing in the ice against aggro feels so good.
I've been running Marcus Ewaldh's Fate Foretold list. It's a lot of fun, and I don't have enough experience running stock Turns list and Edwaldh's to really have a strong opinion. The Fate Foretold list is a lot of fun though.
I have run a modified list of your deck, and there are times where I was glad to have a SSG to accelerate into a dictate and so on. I only have a 178 tickets, and with chalices being so expensive, I can only afford three of them. I don't currently have any blood moons. Would 3 chalices and no Blood Moons be the best addition or 3 Blood Moons and no chalices?
Really enjoying Taking Turns, and after trying my hand at many decks, I am really settling into playing this one for a long time.
I run both Chandra and Simian Spirit Guide in my UR list and the mana acceleration is a must. A unanswered turn 3 Chandra is gg most of the time. Btw I did not like Mystic Speculation. Serum Visions is the way to go.
Could you provide your list? I wouldn't know what to cut for the Spirit Guides.
This is the list im currently running. I am still testing some of the flex slots with Lightning Bolt,Unsubstantiate, and Izzet Charm. Im also considering going back up to 3 steam vents, but it makes playing with Blood Moon hard post SB.
I guess I'm not sold that running Chandra is strong enough to disrupt the mana base for it. I would be more inclined to think maindeck Blood Moon would be a better reason, but Blood Moon doesn't really do anything to help Turns. Honestly, red's lack of answer for an early Death's Shadow makes it a difficult choice as a splash color here. Jeskai control only gets away with it because of the Bolt-Snapcaster-Bolt route to victory.
Likewise, while I understand your reasoning for SSG, if you are going to run acceleration, Chalice is a much better card to accelerate into. It disrupts more decks and creates a must answer presence in a lot of situations. Powering out a turn-3 Chandra sounds powerful, but it's not going to be as good against our toughest matches. It's also a shaky 'combo' relying on a 4-of and a 2-of. I don't mean to be overly critical, but the amount of times your going to land an non-disrupted turn-3 Chandra off an SSG is not high.
If you want to stick with this approach, I'd lose the SSG, add some combination of bolts and look seriously at adding Snapcaster Mage (Boomerang may be another iffy choice). I'd also cut the basic mountain for a fetch. You have no fear of Blood Moon and while you make yourself vulnerable to the occasional recurring Ghost Quarter or Fulminator Mage, it's going to be too rare to notice.
SSG isnt only to pump out Chandra. It basically let me pop off a turn earlier. So many plays can be boosted by it. EoT SSG for a dictate on turn 2 is an example. or being able to awaken up to 3 turns early with a combination of chandra and SSG all while being able to lock them out early game bouncing lands with boomerang. It works, trust. Swapping bolt for SSG is also completely viable and ive played both. I like the SSG build more however. Turn 1 Thing in the ice against aggro feels so good.
The simian spirit guide thing has been brought up before. It's an interesting question: is being able to (potentially) cast a turn spell a turn earlier worth a card in your deck?
It's tough, really tough. And "it works, trust" isn't really helpful I'm afraid. Generally the wisdom has been that it isn't worth the card, the loss of interaction (because that's what you'd have to drop down on) or the reduction in topdeck quality (many times when digging for interaction or something you'll get this guy instead and that'll be game over).
There's another issue with spirit guide and that's the 'curve'. The cheapest turn you can cast normally (not miracles) is Time Warp at 5 mana, and your other turn spells are at 6 and 7. Let's say that you have played a dictate in your opponent's end step and you untap, drop SSG and play a time warp while sitting on four lands. Sure. You got a turn. What happens next is that you're more likely to now draw an uncastable 6 or 7 cost turn spell because you'll only have (maybe) five lands max. You've came too soon as it were. AND factor in the fact that by dropping what is effectively a whole playset of solid interaction, you're less likely now to draw something that'll actually help you in this situation. That's the power of cards like exhaustion, they act as a buffer when you've got a mine effect in play, preventing your opponent from using any of the cards they draw if you have to pass the turn back to them. Boomerang doesn't do this, unless you're extremely lucky AND are on the play (you can't rely on it).
Hmm... Nah I'm not sold on SSG at all in this deck. Not unless (like someone else mentioned) you're slamming down turn 1 chalice of the void (which is still a decent thing to be doing in modern let's be real). That play bides you time, disrupts and occasionally can shut down a whole strategy. I'd run SSG for that, but I think that's it.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I think this depends.
Adding Chandra to a stock Turns list, then, yes, I agree with what you are saying. As you said, once you hit turns, the actual win condition doesn't matter - you just need one.
But, if you are adding Chandra into something like Marcus Ewaldh's As Foretold Turns deck, then, no, I think Chandra becomes a synergistic win condition which is stronger than something like Part the Waterveil. She gives you mana, she gives you cards, and she gives you an emblem to win the game. The question comes down to what is the better meta-call at that point - Stock Turns or an Alternate Build Turns?
What im trying to say is that maybe we could use a secondary win condition in case PtW fails, and that could also be a non-combat win cond. Im cosidering Laboratory Maniac and Jace Beleren
Spirits
With urborg, tomb of yawgmoth it's a turn four warp spell though.
Edit-Pulled the deck out, here's where it's at so far. Still WIP.
4 serum visions
2 beast within
4 utopia sprawl
4 howling mine
4 birds of paradise
2 eternal witness
4 time warp
4 temporal mastery
2 part the waterveil
1 garruk wildspeaker
1 Jace beleren
1 narset transcendent
3 overgrown tomb
2 watery grave
1 hallowed fountain
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs
3 polluted delta
1 mikokoro, center of the sea
1 cascading cataracts
1 island
1 forest
1 swamp
2 remand
2 collective brutality
2 leyline of the void
2 ratchet bomb
4 spreading seas
1 beast within
I don't know if I should switch the leylines for scavenging ooze in SB.
The third beast within in the SB should be something else but I don't know what.
Ratchet is handy but narrow.Can definitely be swapped.
MB things are good, I tried arbor elf before birds and am happier with birds. I might try voyaging satyr in its place so chalice on one isn't so bad.
Narset is actually very easy to cast even needing white.I had stony silence in the SB for a bit and had no problems casting it turn 2 either.
Garruk helps with early ramp and later provides creatures for the beatdown strategy.
Ramping while having early interaction is powerful and allows for T3-T4 warps which is a nice change.
I feel it needs Jace,(maybe a second), without dictate.
I tried ancestral instead of serum first, still haven't decided what's best.
Witness and exhaustion are in the same slot, trying out both. I also want to try courser of kruphix in this slot.
The lands I haven't fine tuned yet since I'm still messing with the MB so much still.
Sorry for the super long post guys.
What's your list?
(I'm back to mono u, no splash has me feeling better than the core list.)
Spirits
It basically gives an opponent a free spell in their hand that reads: "pay half your life rounded up, counter target extra turn spell. Can't be countered"
And then they get to untap and do nasty things like win the game.
Most players would jump at the chance to pay life and counter your critical spells. It's not like we have a particularly threatening clock until we go off.
Could you provide your list? I wouldn't know what to cut for the Spirit Guides.
11x Island
1x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
1x Inkmoth Nexus
1x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1x Gemstone Caverns
Instant (9)
2x Cryptic Command
4x Gigadrowse
3x Boomerang
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Simian Spirit Guide
Planeswalker (2)
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Sorcery (15)
4x Serum Visions
2x Exhasution
3x Temporal Mastery
4x Time Warp
2x Part the Waterveil
Enchantment (3)
3x Dictate of Kruphix
Artifacts (2)
2x Howling Mine
3x Blood Moon
2x Shattering Spree
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Commandeer
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Thing in the Ice
This is the list im currently running. I am still testing some of the flex slots with Lightning Bolt,Unsubstantiate, and Izzet Charm. Im also considering going back up to 3 steam vents, but it makes playing with Blood Moon hard post SB.
I guess I'm not sold that running Chandra is strong enough to disrupt the mana base for it. I would be more inclined to think maindeck Blood Moon would be a better reason, but Blood Moon doesn't really do anything to help Turns. Honestly, red's lack of answer for an early Death's Shadow makes it a difficult choice as a splash color here. Jeskai control only gets away with it because of the Bolt-Snapcaster-Bolt route to victory.
Likewise, while I understand your reasoning for SSG, if you are going to run acceleration, Chalice is a much better card to accelerate into. It disrupts more decks and creates a must answer presence in a lot of situations. Powering out a turn-3 Chandra sounds powerful, but it's not going to be as good against our toughest matches. It's also a shaky 'combo' relying on a 4-of and a 2-of. I don't mean to be overly critical, but the amount of times your going to land an non-disrupted turn-3 Chandra off an SSG is not high.
If you want to stick with this approach, I'd lose the SSG, add some combination of bolts and look seriously at adding Snapcaster Mage (Boomerang may be another iffy choice). I'd also cut the basic mountain for a fetch. You have no fear of Blood Moon and while you make yourself vulnerable to the occasional recurring Ghost Quarter or Fulminator Mage, it's going to be too rare to notice.
SSG isnt only to pump out Chandra. It basically let me pop off a turn earlier. So many plays can be boosted by it. EoT SSG for a dictate on turn 2 is an example. or being able to awaken up to 3 turns early with a combination of chandra and SSG all while being able to lock them out early game bouncing lands with boomerang. It works, trust. Swapping bolt for SSG is also completely viable and ive played both. I like the SSG build more however. Turn 1 Thing in the ice against aggro feels so good.
I'd drop 1 boomerang for an exhaust or dictate personally but I think it's plenty viable.
Spirits
I've been running Marcus Ewaldh's Fate Foretold list. It's a lot of fun, and I don't have enough experience running stock Turns list and Edwaldh's to really have a strong opinion. The Fate Foretold list is a lot of fun though.
I have run a modified list of your deck, and there are times where I was glad to have a SSG to accelerate into a dictate and so on. I only have a 178 tickets, and with chalices being so expensive, I can only afford three of them. I don't currently have any blood moons. Would 3 chalices and no Blood Moons be the best addition or 3 Blood Moons and no chalices?
Really enjoying Taking Turns, and after trying my hand at many decks, I am really settling into playing this one for a long time.
The simian spirit guide thing has been brought up before. It's an interesting question: is being able to (potentially) cast a turn spell a turn earlier worth a card in your deck?
It's tough, really tough. And "it works, trust" isn't really helpful I'm afraid. Generally the wisdom has been that it isn't worth the card, the loss of interaction (because that's what you'd have to drop down on) or the reduction in topdeck quality (many times when digging for interaction or something you'll get this guy instead and that'll be game over).
There's another issue with spirit guide and that's the 'curve'. The cheapest turn you can cast normally (not miracles) is Time Warp at 5 mana, and your other turn spells are at 6 and 7. Let's say that you have played a dictate in your opponent's end step and you untap, drop SSG and play a time warp while sitting on four lands. Sure. You got a turn. What happens next is that you're more likely to now draw an uncastable 6 or 7 cost turn spell because you'll only have (maybe) five lands max. You've came too soon as it were. AND factor in the fact that by dropping what is effectively a whole playset of solid interaction, you're less likely now to draw something that'll actually help you in this situation. That's the power of cards like exhaustion, they act as a buffer when you've got a mine effect in play, preventing your opponent from using any of the cards they draw if you have to pass the turn back to them. Boomerang doesn't do this, unless you're extremely lucky AND are on the play (you can't rely on it).
Hmm... Nah I'm not sold on SSG at all in this deck. Not unless (like someone else mentioned) you're slamming down turn 1 chalice of the void (which is still a decent thing to be doing in modern let's be real). That play bides you time, disrupts and occasionally can shut down a whole strategy. I'd run SSG for that, but I think that's it.
Spirits
Spirits