If the Richmond Modern Classic is any indication, UWR Control, Goryo, and various CoCo decks have made a comeback (making me put 2 Hallowed Moonlight back in the sideboard and 1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner main.)
I have a dedicated Lantern player and a dedicated Robots player, hence the overload on Kataki, which would be something else at a larger event.
Also, am I not correct in thinking that Nebelgast Herald will interact with Emrakul as Flickerwisp and Banisher Priest do, and not count as spells, and thus we could flash it in and tap Emrakul before the attack?
I spent some time with Esper Lingering Spirits and the problem I had was that using this deck as a tap-out deck isn't very good. I pretty much always wanted to hold up my creatures for flashing them in, being reactive, and tapping out on 3 with no Vial always felt pretty bad because while Souls are great to tap out, the rest of our creatures are much less good if we are tapping out. I only sort of like it versus Jund, where Souls really shines unless they have a resolved Scavenging Ooze.
Top 6 3-drops? (1 and 2 are no-brainers, but 3-6 feels pretty up for grabs.)
1. Spell Queller
2. Drogskol Captain
3. Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
4. Eidolon of Rhetoric I took these out because not too many decks are casting more than one spell a turn right now after Turn 3 (though if UWR Control is back, maybe...?) His best effect otherwise is to make killing queller cause the spells you quelled to remain in exile permanently. If Burn returns with a vengeance, then I would put 2 back in immediately somewhere.
5. Geist of Saint Traft
6. Nebelgast Herald
I really like 2 Aven mindcensor main and fear I will miss them, but Mimic is in that spot for now.
@everyone
I am still trying to decide if Fatal Push is worth it. Has anyone else been using it? I have found it frequently excellent, but it hurts against big decks, like Tron, TitanShift, Goryo's Vengeance, and Bant Eldrazi (really only because of Reality Smasher), but it has been excellent against Jund and the aggro decks that want to go hunt up some mana.
Anyone else testing Metallic Mimic? While no Lord, it is valuable if it stays alive long enough for us to get 2+ creatures into play, since it definitely increases our aggression, puts Queller out of Bolt range (there is no trigger, the spirit enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it) and makes Mausoleum Wanderer much better after Turn 2. On the other hand, it rarely gets to attack unless the board is empty. I can't see it above 2 copies, but it has two additional advantages if I am taking out GoST, 1) it is another 2-drop, which we need, and 2) it supplements the loss aggression from dropping GoST.
FYI - against UWR Control, Hallowed Moonlight short-circuits the Nahiri ultimate.
One, I completely agree with everyone on saying playing cards sorcery speed feels bad. It does, especially when you want to hold up counter magic. You could take out souls from the main and replace them with Esper Charms for card draw. That will make the deck much less tap-out.
Smuggler's Copter seems very promising, I like everything it does, and it seems criminally easy to crew. In a tap out shell with souls is where it seems like it would shine.
Another card to consider is Stitcher's Graft. It was brought up a while ago. It buffs up any creature considerably and provides a lot more pressure. You'll most likely be equipping it to souls tokens, so sacrifice them isn't a big deal.
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Modern: G Stompy G UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR UWB Spirits UWB UWB Brain Control UWB WUB Esper Reveillark WUB EDH: WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
Wondering if Spell Pierce could be Esper Charm? Obviously the cards do different things, but I have seen matches where destroying an enchantment is good, where drawing two at instant speed is good, and forcing your opponent to discard two cards is good. I will miss the situational counter magic, but having three abilities to choose from can make it less situational. Obviously, cmc1 vs cmc 3 is not irrelevant.
I like it as a way to deal with decks like Jund where they often win the 1-for-1 battle, especially if they land a Liliana (either one, really), whereas either drawing two or making them discard what they have left can get us back into a game. I could definitely see it as a 2-of.
This, of course, assumes going Esper.
If you go Esper, is Dimir Cutpurse any good? I guess not, but I wish it had flying.
Other janky ideas: Zealous Persecution in the Esper build instead of counter-magic or Esper Charm. Fine against Infect and probably against ramp decks as well if Abzan CoCo and mana_dork.dec are returning. Also fine against Affinity.
I'm hoping to play a deck where the only time you tap out is on your opponent's end step. So, I guess esper is probably no good, I'll try our nebelghast because of the flash and midnight haunting and ojutai's command, I guess for now there is no reason to go into esper.
Well, I suspect that Esper Charm, Zealous Persecution and Fatal Push could combine to make a somewhat compelling case for Esper, but yeah, I want to achieve the same ends.
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Standard
Tempo Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
The one drop spot will never be cast on our opponent's end step if we're doing well.
Thing is, Zealous Persecution is really only good if you run lingering souls. I can see it in a meta full of x/1s but aside from that we should probably steer clear. I'd rather run some instant speed counterspells.
Modern: G Stompy G UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR UWB Spirits UWB UWB Brain Control UWB WUB Esper Reveillark WUB EDH: WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
I meant to add Essence Flux to my jank card ideas.
If you go in with Lingering Souls, I agree that Zealous Persecution is more valuable, but it still isn't bad in the creature-heavy build (I run 28-30 creatures.)
@ketoglutarate
I agree GoST is the best spirit in a vacuum, but I think you really hit the nail on the head:
"Sometimes you have to give up the best pieces in order to make the sum of your pieces as high as possible"
Jadine Klomparens made a similar point in her recent SCG article:
"Think back to when you started to understand what was important in the game of Magic. At some point, you were likely introduced to the idea of the mana curve. Try to recall how mind-blowing that idea was the first time you fully understood the fact that using as much of your mana as possible every turn was more important than playing objectively better cards. The first time I cut a three-drop I thought was fantastic for a two-drop I didn't like at all, I felt like a genius. Mana is the soul of Magic."
This is exactly how I feel about Phantasmal Image and Metallic Mimic. They aren't the best cards, but they are two drops in a deck that needs enough 2 drops to offset the heft of our 3 drops.
I would love the have this:
CMC 1: 12+
CMC 2: 12+
CMC 3: 8
Lands 21-2
But that isn't possible yet.
CMC 1 is 11-14 spells (there isn't much else worth discussing at this cost, very little flex and many decks will drop up to 3 of these)
4 Mausoleum
4 Aether Vial (or Noble Hierarch)
3-4 Removal (Path or Push)
2 Spell Pierce
CMC 2 is 11-17 (How high are we willing to go on Image and Mimic and are there any other 2-drop spirits worth playing in Modern? Spirit of the Labyrinth is barely playable as a 1-of in Legacy and it is much worse here. Do you skip Tribal and try to go UW DnT for Spell Queller since Mausoleum Wanderer is amazing in tribal and basically Judge's Familiar in any deck with less than 20 Spirits.)
3 Thalia
4 Rattlechains
3-4 Selfless Spirit
1-2 Phantasmal Image
2-3 Metallic Mimic (maybe)
CMC 3 is full of objectively good (good in a vacuum) cards and 1 situational card and 1 mediocre card, but that is still up to 25 3 drops you could run! And we have to choose. Only 2 of them are no-brainers and everything else, IMO, is questionable in the main (Kira is probably always at least a 1-of in the side.) I don't think I ever want to go above 12 in this slot.
4 Spell Queller
4 Drogskol
3-4 Lingering Souls
3 GoST
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2-4 Nebelgast Herald
1-2 Kira
1-2 Steel of the Godhead
That is high creature density at 29, with a little removal and counter magic to push through. CMC1=14, CMC2=16, CMC3=9. This is actually a really good curve, but you are definitely going for some so-so cards to get
Esper Pure Spirits with Lingering Souls dispensing with Thalia (I don't think you want Thalia + Lingering Souls, that pushes the mana too hard). CMC1=14, CMC2=13, CMC3=12, so now the curve is falling off a bit, though you will get to cast Souls for 2 at some point. It is also debatable if you want Spell Pierce at this point or something like Zealous Persecution, since you will be tapping out more often with no open mana, but that drives your curve up a little too (CMC1=12, CMC2=15, CMC3=12)
39 spells
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Aether Vial
4 Push
2 Spell Pierce
4 Rattlechains
4 Selfless Spirit
2 Phantasmal Image
3 Metallic Mimic
4 Spell Queller
4 Drogskol
3 Lingering Souls
IMO, every change from these stock lists involves tweaking to make room, and most of the time it is tweaking that ups our curve and strains our mana.
For example, to get 3 GoST and 1 Steel, I started with the stock UW list above and took out 1 removal spell (+2 cmc), 1 Selfless Spirit (+1 CMC), and I had no Mimics (I alternated between 2 Eidolon or 2 Aven Mindcensor already), which made my original curve (+3 CMC), for a deck with this curve: CMC 1=13, CMC2=12, CMC3=16. I took out the Eidolons and added 2 Mimics, which balanced it out a little, bu really it is still heavy.
But it is no different if you want to run 3-4 Nebelgast Herald or Lingering Souls.
Compare this to Merfolk, a very good tempo deck. They have 11-17 CMC1, 20-22 CMC2, 3 CMC3 and 4 CMC4 cards. That is only 7 cards above CMC2. I think the optimal deck for us tries to stay as close to 8 cards above CMC2 as possible.
I am going to try tuning the deck along mana curve and not objective card quality. We shall see how it goes.
Redtwister how does that deck perform? My own experience with spirits is that theyir 2 drop creatures does not threat the oponent enough. Your list has 4 mimic, 4 drogskoll and 2 pahntasmal image. Tharlia probably also helps.
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I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
Redtwister how does that deck perform? My own experience with spirits is that theyir 2 drop creatures does not threat the oponent enough. Your list has 4 mimic, 4 drogskoll and 2 pahntasmal image. Tharlia probably also helps.
I agree with you on that point. I'm really hoping for a flash 2 Mana spirit that's good on its own with an Aggressive p/t from Amonkhet. Any card like that would help spirits immensely. Another good flash three drop might be good as well. If we get those two cards, not only could vial spirits be powerful, but Non-Vial spirits would be more justified. You are wouldn't have to rely on Vial as much as we do currently.
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Modern: G Stompy G UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR UWB Spirits UWB UWB Brain Control UWB WUB Esper Reveillark WUB EDH: WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
Anyone that plays GoST really should look into the Tallowisp version of the deck. Being able to fetch out SotGH and swinging for 8 unblockable is just game breaking. Vial versions really don't need that package and it's better for for going wide.
I played a 4 round event with about 24 people tonight.
It went as follows:
Round 1 vs. Cheerios 2-0
Their deck can be a problem, but my mana curve was very good and Metallic Mimic allowed my flyers to become significantly better. It did exactly what I hoped for, though it is no Lord.
Round 2 vs. Goryo's Vengeance 2-0
Played carefully, and with my sideboard, this was pretty easy. I lost to it last week in part on being unable to extend my board. Spell Queller with Mimic out was fantastic. I survived my board being wiped 2x.
Round 3 vs. Pseudo-Amulet Bloom 0-2
Despite the terrible result, both games were close, especially the second one. I didn't find Aven Mindcensor or Blessed Alliance game 2, and that is essentially why I lost. This is a match where you need to be very disruptive and aggressive.
Round 4 vs. WB Eldrazi and Taxes 0-2
Absolutely the worst match of the night. Their deck is removal that turns into pressure. Kind of like playing against Jund. They play Ghostly Prison and the mana-hate package, and that is super effective. I was forced to use a 2/1 attacker leaving up 3 mana to try and Queller Prison, and as soon as I tapped out, it was over. I need to think about how to approach this.
Declaration in Stone was okay, but Blessed Alliance is just generally better. Happy to put those main and then do something else in the side (not Dec in Stone!) Maybe 1-of Nikko-Onna. Kami of False Hope would have been great against Titan, and is also value against Infect.
Spell Pierce was underwhelming, even against the combo decks. Aside from countering Planeswalkers against Jund, I don't know how good it is. We already have high-value counter-magic baked in. Thoughts?
Interesting discussion about the curve. For me 12x 1cc, 12x 2cc, 12x 3cc, plus 2x flex slots and 22 lands has worked out. With this curve we can use our mana effectively when we hit our 3rd land, which is why i like 22 lands.
Keep in mind the aether vial factor (or noble hierarch factor for bant). We want to tick it up to 3 and having only 8-9x 3 drops makes vial sub-optimal mid-late game as we topdeck more 2 drops. Merfolk has tons of quality 2 drops, our best stuff is at 3 mana, i think we have to accept that. The thing about playing worse cards to improve the curve doesn't apply entirely here, because we are a tribal deck and we don't get to jam just whatever cards we want that are good, we need lots of spirits, and the best ones cost 3.
@Ace1
I don't think Tribal changes the question of curve. It just means we can't build a tribal deck that is going to be as consistent and efficient if we can't curve out, even with Vial and mana dorks.
Maybe Spirits can't be good enough to be competitive without going in on mana dorks. Even mana dorks do not change the importance of mana and curve. The deck still obeys curving out. Bant has to run 22 lands and 16 CMC1 cards to make 10 CMC2, 12 CMC3, and 4 CMC4 work.
As for good 3-drops for Spirits after Queller and Captain, aside from Geist of Saint Traft, I'm not seeing anything that isn't very situational.
Sure, I might have won out last against Pseudo-Amulet Bloom Titan if I had Nebelgast Herald to tap it before it attacked, but then again I had Aven Mindcensor and Blessed Alliance and Path to Exile, I just didn't have them when I needed them. On the other hand, had I not had Metallic Mimic, which can't be flashed in but is certainly a spirit when in play and triggers Mausoleum Wanderer, I would have lost two games because of the acceleration it gave me. It certainly wasn't GoST with an equipped Steel of the Godhead, but it was darn good. And I didn't worry as much about land drops. Or Vial even. I am a Legacy DnT player, but I have played vial decks as long as I have played Eternal formats, I am able to be patient with ticking up Vial, especially with a deck with flash creatures. I just don't think holding on two for a little longer is a bad thing.
I think the interaction between Spell Queller and Wasteland Strangler is probably the best thing we have going for us. AEther Vial makes it even better. I've been working on a list
I'm having a tough time making the mana base work. Which I guess is to be expected with a 3-color deck with no Fetch lands. I've been going back and forth between this list and a more midrange approach with less creatures. Is Bant the better color scheme? I'm thinking a creature package like:
I think the interaction between Spell Queller and Wasteland Strangler is probably the best thing we have going for us. AEther Vial makes it even better. I've been working on a list
If you're going to play Death and taxes, you need about 24 lands. And take out mana leak for Restoration Angel.
I think this is where we're confused on the deck. We dont' know if we're aggro, control, aggro control etc. It's starting to be a pile of cards and hope it works.
Agreed, PtyLtd, nebelgast herald is great when behind. It has saved me so many times and won me games i would have lost otherwise.
Another aspect of the card that is overlooked is it just being a flash dude. You can often hold up spell queller (or countermagic or removal) and if you don't want to use any of those just flash nebelgast end step and start applying some pressure. This is very relevant when you don't draw rattlechains.
I havent posted for a while. But for those of you championing Metallic Mimic, would you play Favourable Winds, it's essentially the same card, just easier to remove.
Metallic Mimic can be vialed in (which is incredible if you can also flash in a Spell Queller), under some circumstances it can attack, it can block to save damage, and it fuels Moorland Haunt if it dies.
If your opponent spends removal on Mimic, it's one less piece of removal they will have for Spell Queller or Drogskoll Captain. I think it's close, but I'd rather play Mimic, personally.
Has anyone tried 1 or 2 Smuggler's Copter in the 2 drop slot? Seems trivially easy to crew, especially with Lingering Souls or Moorland Haunt if you run into sweepers. You can also flash in creatures to surprise crew the copter and block. The looting seems very good in the deck, as one the ways this deck loses is drawing lands, and you can even discard creatures to feed Moorland Haunt, or simply discard Lingering Souls to setup it's flashback cost.
If the Richmond Modern Classic is any indication, UWR Control, Goryo, and various CoCo decks have made a comeback (making me put 2 Hallowed Moonlight back in the sideboard and 1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner main.)
I lost to Goryo last week, but it required him to have literally Emrakul, 2x Simian Spirit Guide, Through the Breach or die.
In the meantime, gonna follow some suggestions here because, well, you are all so insistent on it in UW or in my case, UWb:
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Rattlechains
4 Drogskol Captain
4 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Nebelgast Herald
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Metallic Mimic
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
Instants 5
3 Fatal Push
2 Spell Pierce
4 Aether Vial
Lands 21
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
2 Seachrome Coast
2 Plains
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Stony Silence
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Blessed Alliance
2 rest in Peace
2 Flashfreeze
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Hallowed Moonlight
1 Negate
I have a dedicated Lantern player and a dedicated Robots player, hence the overload on Kataki, which would be something else at a larger event.
Also, am I not correct in thinking that Nebelgast Herald will interact with Emrakul as Flickerwisp and Banisher Priest do, and not count as spells, and thus we could flash it in and tap Emrakul before the attack?
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Nice post, well said.
I spent some time with Esper Lingering Spirits and the problem I had was that using this deck as a tap-out deck isn't very good. I pretty much always wanted to hold up my creatures for flashing them in, being reactive, and tapping out on 3 with no Vial always felt pretty bad because while Souls are great to tap out, the rest of our creatures are much less good if we are tapping out. I only sort of like it versus Jund, where Souls really shines unless they have a resolved Scavenging Ooze.
Top 6 3-drops? (1 and 2 are no-brainers, but 3-6 feels pretty up for grabs.)
1. Spell Queller
2. Drogskol Captain
3. Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
4. Eidolon of Rhetoric I took these out because not too many decks are casting more than one spell a turn right now after Turn 3 (though if UWR Control is back, maybe...?) His best effect otherwise is to make killing queller cause the spells you quelled to remain in exile permanently. If Burn returns with a vengeance, then I would put 2 back in immediately somewhere.
5. Geist of Saint Traft
6. Nebelgast Herald
I really like 2 Aven mindcensor main and fear I will miss them, but Mimic is in that spot for now.
@everyone
I am still trying to decide if Fatal Push is worth it. Has anyone else been using it? I have found it frequently excellent, but it hurts against big decks, like Tron, TitanShift, Goryo's Vengeance, and Bant Eldrazi (really only because of Reality Smasher), but it has been excellent against Jund and the aggro decks that want to go hunt up some mana.
Anyone else testing Metallic Mimic? While no Lord, it is valuable if it stays alive long enough for us to get 2+ creatures into play, since it definitely increases our aggression, puts Queller out of Bolt range (there is no trigger, the spirit enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it) and makes Mausoleum Wanderer much better after Turn 2. On the other hand, it rarely gets to attack unless the board is empty. I can't see it above 2 copies, but it has two additional advantages if I am taking out GoST, 1) it is another 2-drop, which we need, and 2) it supplements the loss aggression from dropping GoST.
FYI - against UWR Control, Hallowed Moonlight short-circuits the Nahiri ultimate.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
One, I completely agree with everyone on saying playing cards sorcery speed feels bad. It does, especially when you want to hold up counter magic. You could take out souls from the main and replace them with Esper Charms for card draw. That will make the deck much less tap-out.
Smuggler's Copter seems very promising, I like everything it does, and it seems criminally easy to crew. In a tap out shell with souls is where it seems like it would shine.
Another card to consider is Stitcher's Graft. It was brought up a while ago. It buffs up any creature considerably and provides a lot more pressure. You'll most likely be equipping it to souls tokens, so sacrifice them isn't a big deal.
G Stompy G
UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR
UWB Spirits UWB
UWB Brain Control UWBWUB Esper Reveillark WUB
EDH:
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW
WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
I like it as a way to deal with decks like Jund where they often win the 1-for-1 battle, especially if they land a Liliana (either one, really), whereas either drawing two or making them discard what they have left can get us back into a game. I could definitely see it as a 2-of.
This, of course, assumes going Esper.
If you go Esper, is Dimir Cutpurse any good? I guess not, but I wish it had flying.
Other janky ideas:
Zealous Persecution in the Esper build instead of counter-magic or Esper Charm. Fine against Infect and probably against ramp decks as well if Abzan CoCo and mana_dork.dec are returning. Also fine against Affinity.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Thing is, Zealous Persecution is really only good if you run lingering souls. I can see it in a meta full of x/1s but aside from that we should probably steer clear. I'd rather run some instant speed counterspells.
And hey, Alley evasion seems pretty cool, maybe worth trying out.
G Stompy G
UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR
UWB Spirits UWB
UWB Brain Control UWBWUB Esper Reveillark WUB
EDH:
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW
WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
If you go in with Lingering Souls, I agree that Zealous Persecution is more valuable, but it still isn't bad in the creature-heavy build (I run 28-30 creatures.)
@ketoglutarate
I agree GoST is the best spirit in a vacuum, but I think you really hit the nail on the head:
"Sometimes you have to give up the best pieces in order to make the sum of your pieces as high as possible"
Jadine Klomparens made a similar point in her recent SCG article:
"Think back to when you started to understand what was important in the game of Magic. At some point, you were likely introduced to the idea of the mana curve. Try to recall how mind-blowing that idea was the first time you fully understood the fact that using as much of your mana as possible every turn was more important than playing objectively better cards. The first time I cut a three-drop I thought was fantastic for a two-drop I didn't like at all, I felt like a genius. Mana is the soul of Magic."
This is exactly how I feel about Phantasmal Image and Metallic Mimic. They aren't the best cards, but they are two drops in a deck that needs enough 2 drops to offset the heft of our 3 drops.
I would love the have this:
CMC 1: 12+
CMC 2: 12+
CMC 3: 8
Lands 21-2
But that isn't possible yet.
CMC 1 is 11-14 spells (there isn't much else worth discussing at this cost, very little flex and many decks will drop up to 3 of these)
4 Mausoleum
4 Aether Vial (or Noble Hierarch)
3-4 Removal (Path or Push)
2 Spell Pierce
CMC 2 is 11-17 (How high are we willing to go on Image and Mimic and are there any other 2-drop spirits worth playing in Modern? Spirit of the Labyrinth is barely playable as a 1-of in Legacy and it is much worse here. Do you skip Tribal and try to go UW DnT for Spell Queller since Mausoleum Wanderer is amazing in tribal and basically Judge's Familiar in any deck with less than 20 Spirits.)
3 Thalia
4 Rattlechains
3-4 Selfless Spirit
1-2 Phantasmal Image
2-3 Metallic Mimic (maybe)
CMC 3 is full of objectively good (good in a vacuum) cards and 1 situational card and 1 mediocre card, but that is still up to 25 3 drops you could run! And we have to choose. Only 2 of them are no-brainers and everything else, IMO, is questionable in the main (Kira is probably always at least a 1-of in the side.) I don't think I ever want to go above 12 in this slot.
4 Spell Queller
4 Drogskol
3-4 Lingering Souls
3 GoST
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2-4 Nebelgast Herald
1-2 Kira
1-2 Steel of the Godhead
CMC 4 (Bant only)
4 CoCo
Note, I did not include certain cards: Judge's Familiar, Kami of False Hope (sideboard playable, for sure) or Mana Leak, Remand, Zealous Persecution or Kataki, War's Wage (again, sideboard but never main) or Esper Charm.
So let's see deck ideas if we put curve over "card quality in a vacuum" in UW or Esper (and not Bant.)
UW Spirits very basic list (21 lands, but you could go 22 and drop a creature; 4 removal spells, 4 vial, 4 of each essential tribal creature)
39 spells
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Aether Vial
4 Path
2 Spell Pierce
3 Thalia
4 Rattlechains
4 Selfless Spirit
2 Phantasmal Image
3 Metallic Mimic
4 Spell Queller
4 Drogskol
1 Kira
That is high creature density at 29, with a little removal and counter magic to push through. CMC1=14, CMC2=16, CMC3=9. This is actually a really good curve, but you are definitely going for some so-so cards to get
Esper Pure Spirits with Lingering Souls dispensing with Thalia (I don't think you want Thalia + Lingering Souls, that pushes the mana too hard). CMC1=14, CMC2=13, CMC3=12, so now the curve is falling off a bit, though you will get to cast Souls for 2 at some point. It is also debatable if you want Spell Pierce at this point or something like Zealous Persecution, since you will be tapping out more often with no open mana, but that drives your curve up a little too (CMC1=12, CMC2=15, CMC3=12)
39 spells
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Aether Vial
4 Push
2 Spell Pierce
4 Rattlechains
4 Selfless Spirit
2 Phantasmal Image
3 Metallic Mimic
4 Spell Queller
4 Drogskol
3 Lingering Souls
IMO, every change from these stock lists involves tweaking to make room, and most of the time it is tweaking that ups our curve and strains our mana.
For example, to get 3 GoST and 1 Steel, I started with the stock UW list above and took out 1 removal spell (+2 cmc), 1 Selfless Spirit (+1 CMC), and I had no Mimics (I alternated between 2 Eidolon or 2 Aven Mindcensor already), which made my original curve (+3 CMC), for a deck with this curve: CMC 1=13, CMC2=12, CMC3=16. I took out the Eidolons and added 2 Mimics, which balanced it out a little, bu really it is still heavy.
But it is no different if you want to run 3-4 Nebelgast Herald or Lingering Souls.
Compare this to Merfolk, a very good tempo deck. They have 11-17 CMC1, 20-22 CMC2, 3 CMC3 and 4 CMC4 cards. That is only 7 cards above CMC2. I think the optimal deck for us tries to stay as close to 8 cards above CMC2 as possible.
I am going to try tuning the deck along mana curve and not objective card quality. We shall see how it goes.
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Rattlechains
4 Drogskol Captain
4 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Phantasmal Image
4 Metallic Mimic
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
Instants 6
2 Path to Exile
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Spell Pierce
4 Aether Vial
Lands 21
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Glacial Fortress
3 Plains
3 Island
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Stony Silence
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Blessed Alliance
2 rest in Peace
2 Flashfreeze
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Hallowed Moonlight
I have 13 sideboard cards, I am torn between Eidolon of Rhetoric and Aven Mindcensor (Burn and Control vs. Scapeshift and Tron.)
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I agree with you on that point. I'm really hoping for a flash 2 Mana spirit that's good on its own with an Aggressive p/t from Amonkhet. Any card like that would help spirits immensely. Another good flash three drop might be good as well. If we get those two cards, not only could vial spirits be powerful, but Non-Vial spirits would be more justified. You are wouldn't have to rely on Vial as much as we do currently.
G Stompy G
UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR
UWB Spirits UWB
UWB Brain Control UWBWUB Esper Reveillark WUB
EDH:
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW
WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
It went as follows:
Round 1 vs. Cheerios 2-0
Their deck can be a problem, but my mana curve was very good and Metallic Mimic allowed my flyers to become significantly better. It did exactly what I hoped for, though it is no Lord.
Round 2 vs. Goryo's Vengeance 2-0
Played carefully, and with my sideboard, this was pretty easy. I lost to it last week in part on being unable to extend my board. Spell Queller with Mimic out was fantastic. I survived my board being wiped 2x.
Round 3 vs. Pseudo-Amulet Bloom 0-2
Despite the terrible result, both games were close, especially the second one. I didn't find Aven Mindcensor or Blessed Alliance game 2, and that is essentially why I lost. This is a match where you need to be very disruptive and aggressive.
Round 4 vs. WB Eldrazi and Taxes 0-2
Absolutely the worst match of the night. Their deck is removal that turns into pressure. Kind of like playing against Jund. They play Ghostly Prison and the mana-hate package, and that is super effective. I was forced to use a 2/1 attacker leaving up 3 mana to try and Queller Prison, and as soon as I tapped out, it was over. I need to think about how to approach this.
Declaration in Stone was okay, but Blessed Alliance is just generally better. Happy to put those main and then do something else in the side (not Dec in Stone!) Maybe 1-of Nikko-Onna. Kami of False Hope would have been great against Titan, and is also value against Infect.
Spell Pierce was underwhelming, even against the combo decks. Aside from countering Planeswalkers against Jund, I don't know how good it is. We already have high-value counter-magic baked in. Thoughts?
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Keep in mind the aether vial factor (or noble hierarch factor for bant). We want to tick it up to 3 and having only 8-9x 3 drops makes vial sub-optimal mid-late game as we topdeck more 2 drops. Merfolk has tons of quality 2 drops, our best stuff is at 3 mana, i think we have to accept that. The thing about playing worse cards to improve the curve doesn't apply entirely here, because we are a tribal deck and we don't get to jam just whatever cards we want that are good, we need lots of spirits, and the best ones cost 3.
I don't think Tribal changes the question of curve. It just means we can't build a tribal deck that is going to be as consistent and efficient if we can't curve out, even with Vial and mana dorks.
Maybe Spirits can't be good enough to be competitive without going in on mana dorks. Even mana dorks do not change the importance of mana and curve. The deck still obeys curving out. Bant has to run 22 lands and 16 CMC1 cards to make 10 CMC2, 12 CMC3, and 4 CMC4 work.
As for good 3-drops for Spirits after Queller and Captain, aside from Geist of Saint Traft, I'm not seeing anything that isn't very situational.
Sure, I might have won out last against Pseudo-Amulet Bloom Titan if I had Nebelgast Herald to tap it before it attacked, but then again I had Aven Mindcensor and Blessed Alliance and Path to Exile, I just didn't have them when I needed them. On the other hand, had I not had Metallic Mimic, which can't be flashed in but is certainly a spirit when in play and triggers Mausoleum Wanderer, I would have lost two games because of the acceleration it gave me. It certainly wasn't GoST with an equipped Steel of the Godhead, but it was darn good. And I didn't worry as much about land drops. Or Vial even. I am a Legacy DnT player, but I have played vial decks as long as I have played Eternal formats, I am able to be patient with ticking up Vial, especially with a deck with flash creatures. I just don't think holding on two for a little longer is a bad thing.
EDIT:
I am going to "blow out" my curve a little and replace 2 Spell Pierce with 2 Nebelgast Herald.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Selfless Spirit
4 Spell Queller
4 Wasteland strangler
4 Flickerwisp
4 AEther Vial
4 Path to Exile
3 Mana Leak
Lands (22)
4 Seachrome coast
3 Concealed Courtyard
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Mystic gate
1 Fetid heath
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Plains
1 Island
I'm having a tough time making the mana base work. Which I guess is to be expected with a 3-color deck with no Fetch lands. I've been going back and forth between this list and a more midrange approach with less creatures. Is Bant the better color scheme? I'm thinking a creature package like:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Spell Queller
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Serum Visions
4 Path to Exile
4 Spell Pierce
3 Ojutai's Command
2 Negate
23 Lands
Draft My Cube!
If you're going to play Death and taxes, you need about 24 lands. And take out mana leak for Restoration Angel.
I think this is where we're confused on the deck. We dont' know if we're aggro, control, aggro control etc. It's starting to be a pile of cards and hope it works.
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
Another aspect of the card that is overlooked is it just being a flash dude. You can often hold up spell queller (or countermagic or removal) and if you don't want to use any of those just flash nebelgast end step and start applying some pressure. This is very relevant when you don't draw rattlechains.
Metallic Mimic can be vialed in (which is incredible if you can also flash in a Spell Queller), under some circumstances it can attack, it can block to save damage, and it fuels Moorland Haunt if it dies.
If your opponent spends removal on Mimic, it's one less piece of removal they will have for Spell Queller or Drogskoll Captain. I think it's close, but I'd rather play Mimic, personally.
Has anyone tried 1 or 2 Smuggler's Copter in the 2 drop slot? Seems trivially easy to crew, especially with Lingering Souls or Moorland Haunt if you run into sweepers. You can also flash in creatures to surprise crew the copter and block. The looting seems very good in the deck, as one the ways this deck loses is drawing lands, and you can even discard creatures to feed Moorland Haunt, or simply discard Lingering Souls to setup it's flashback cost.
WUBRGCoco/Vial Slivers
WUBRGSlivers of the Void
Pioneer
WUBRGCoco Slivers
Legacy
WUBRGAll in Slivers