Another cool synergy with Baral is with Kira. When she counters stuff you get a loot trigger.
Another upside to baral is the loot ability in general. It means you can ditch other copies of him, or more irrelevant cards, making sure you can keep looting. He fills your graveyard for moorland haunt
Modern: G Stompy G UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR UWB Spirits UWB UWB Brain Control UWB WUB Esper Reveillark WUB EDH: WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
How many counters do you run for Baral's Ability to be relevant ?
Getting a slight discount on a handful of spells doesn't seem to be worth a card imho.
As a non-spirit I don't think that he is better than Thalia in the deck.
Hi Guys - are all of you on Esper? Does anyone play only UW, or Bant with Collected Company?
This thread started out with UW builds and as we grew comfortable with the common interactions people started experimenting with various third colours. Bant Spirits has seen some success (including a major win) and has its own thread.
Lingering Souls is a very very strong card in our spirits builds, but it hasn't been enough on its own to justify stretching our mana base. With the addition of Fatal Push, Esper is looking pretty enticing.
That said, I think most people in this thread are still solidly UW.
Quote from "gabriel_404 »
Second question: Is three always the right number of Geists?
For the most common UW Spirits builds, I think most of us agree the correct number of GOST is zero.
I actually don't find Geist of Saint Traft disappointing in UW at all. It wins me a significant number of games. Has someone explained why they think it is worse than in Bant (I think CoCo makes Steel of the Godhead worse.)
How many counters do you run for Baral's Ability to be relevant ?
Getting a slight discount on a handful of spells doesn't seem to be worth a card imho.
As a non-spirit I don't think that he is better than Thalia in the deck.
Thalia is better by far in a Vial list. In my list, Thalia would be extremely detrimental.
My current list (not posted) for reference has:
4 Remand
2 Mana Leak
2 Kira Great Glass Spinner
1 Spell Pierce
4 Lingering Souls
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
All of which synergize with Baral.
And I'm thinking of taking out worship for Ojutai's Command for more counters, draws, and a way to get Baral back.
It seems to me like enough to merit an inclusion.
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Modern: G Stompy G UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR UWB Spirits UWB UWB Brain Control UWB WUB Esper Reveillark WUB EDH: WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
How does metalic mimmic fit into rhe deck, could it work? I have not tryed anafensa, and you people say she is bad.
The mimic though works with tokens, does that make it better?
Or would both of them be good?
Mimic doesn't receive benefits from Rattlechains, and isn't a 2/2.
Aside from that, it's much easier to cast, it affects tokens, it gets buffs from your other creatures, and it isn't legendary so it can stack.
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Modern: G Stompy G UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR UWB Spirits UWB UWB Brain Control UWB WUB Esper Reveillark WUB EDH: WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
I actually don't find Geist of Saint Traft disappointing in UW at all. It wins me a significant number of games. Has someone explained why they think it is worse than in Bant (I think CoCo makes Steel of the Godhead worse.)
I can't speak for others, but i did try out a geist build a while ago. For me he just isn't needed. We don't need a 100% attacker. I find that every creature in the deck are win conditions. We attack with a horde of flyers most decks can't block. Not having flyig hurts a lot. In bant decks they can play geist turn 2, which makes him significantly better (but even then i don't like it). We have ways to protect our stuff too, the hexproof is sometimes redundant. Of course if you play geist it will win you games, but games that you would have lost otherwise?
So in short, we don't need more win conditions, we don't need a hexproof threat, we need more tempo and nebelgast herald excels at that.
How does metalic mimmic fit into rhe deck, could it work? I have not tryed anafensa, and you people say she is bad.
The mimic though works with tokens, does that make it better?
Or would both of them be good?
Metallic Mimic seems to be a good 2-drop for the deck at this time but I think we are looking for something else (hopefully we get it in Amonkhet). As Ace1 already stated, we don't need to focus on building up large attackers, we need flying creatures that provide us with an additional benefit such as hexproof (Rattlechains) or indestructible (Selfless Spirit) while also able to chip in for some damage. I can only think of Faeries, Infect (Inkmoth Nexus) and Affinity (Ornithopter, Signal Pest) that always have fliers so most of the time our creatures are unblockable anyways. With Spell Queller and Nebelgast Herald we slow them down while attacking with our unblockable creatures.
Testing will give us the final answer but I can see two options. An UW version like most of play now with Aether Vial and a focus on playing in the opponent's turn or a more BW Tokens like approach with Metallic Mimic, Lingering Souls and Inquisition of Kozilek
I played a version using tallow wisp. It was a bit slow, but some of the enchantments where good.
Could it be possible to play with 4 Zur the Enchanter or is that to cute?
It's a really cool card but attacking on turn 5 to find an Aura might be a bit on the slow side.. Also, it's not a spirit.. And it's legendary as well, so 4 might be too much as they will clog up your hand in multiples.
Speaking of enchantments - has anyone revisited Promise of Bunrei in their lists? 4 spirits for 3 mana seems decent, though lack of flying diminishes the value a bit but they're colourless so they can block etched champion and friends. Still, it makes for nice wrath insurance and can be triggered by sac'ing a Selfless Spirit or Mausoleum Wanderer.
Modern: G Stompy G UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR UWB Spirits UWB UWB Brain Control UWB WUB Esper Reveillark WUB EDH: WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
@TheCelticWombat: Not sure this is a spirit deck anymore, why not just play esper midrange or sky aggro? You barely have any spirit synergy left...
Today went 2-0-1
win 2-1 vs merfolk, g1 i got master of waves'd to death, g2-3 i got the right mix of tempo with nebelgast and paths.
win 2-0 vs mono-blue tron, the matchup seemed pretty good, all their counters are medium vs us when we have vial and cavern. G2 nebelgast + image locked his sundering titan out of attacking, the game was close!
draw 1-1-1 vs budget b/w tokens, this matchup is always hard because of their flyers. G1 zealous persecution wiped my board and gave my opponent the win. G2 multiple lords and nebelgast got there. G3 we'll never know!
@TheCelticWombat: Not sure this is a spirit deck anymore, why not just play esper midrange or sky aggro? You barely have any spirit synergy left...
Today went 2-0-1
win 2-1 vs merfolk, g1 i got master of waves'd to death, g2-3 i got the right mix of tempo with nebelgast and paths.
win 2-0 vs mono-blue tron, the matchup seemed pretty good, all their counters are medium vs us when we have vial and cavern. G2 nebelgast + image locked his sundering titan out of attacking, the game was close!
draw 1-1-1 vs budget b/w tokens, this matchup is always hard because of their flyers. G1 zealous persecution wiped my board and gave my opponent the win. G2 multiple lords and nebelgast got there. G3 we'll never know!
Good to see these lists keep putting up good results, I was wondering what the reasoning is behind both Tectonic Edge and Ghost Quarter. I play 2 Ghost Quarter main since they can answer what needs to be gone in the early turns (Nexus, Tron lands), Tectonic Edge always seems too slow for me.. Getting 2 slots in the SB could be Lingering Souls, always an easy switch for some Nebelgast Herald when they don't matter that much.
The reasoning behind this setup is that tectonic edge is better with thalia, guardian of thraben and path to exile. It can help keep the opponent's mana under pressure with thalia, and you can path to give them their 4th land and tec edge after, undoing your path's drawback. Under a thalia, your opponent is incentivised to play their 4th land anyways. I believe this advantage is better than GQ in most matchups (but i could be wrong).
In the matchups you described, i do like to have extra land destruction so i bring ghost quarters in. I also like having access to extra lands from the board for when i side out aether vials (vs jund or when i bring in stony silence). When we are vialess, hitting our land drops is more important.
I'm also considering swapping spellskites for blessed alliance in the sideboard. Seems like vs infect, bogles, etc, killing stuff might be better than holding them off of pumps. I do like skite as a blocker vs burn but killing a creature does the same thing as blocking one, except when they kill skite their creature can now attack. I also don't like to have artifacts G2-3 because they might bring hate for vials. Alliance being an instant plays well with our flash gameplan. And i'd rather topdeck alliance on a scary board.
Just doing a little gauntlet testing, I've found the list to be a lot of fun and very promising, but somewhat top-heavy since there are lots of primo 3-drops - Lingering Souls, Drogskol Captain, Nebelgast Herald and Spell Queller. Running some disruption can help that - counters/spot removal/discard in whatever configuration suites you - but it also makes me think that Serum Visions could help smooth out your openings quite a bit. Especially given the lower number of good turn-1 plays the deck has, and how easy and powerful it is to cast Visions later and still hold up mana for disruption.
Of course Aether Vial changes the math quite a bit, as do the Mana Dorks in the Bant version. But I'd like to hear people's thoughts on one-drops/Visions plan, and/or on Vial in general in this list.
I also did a little experimentation with Mana Tithe, which is a hilarious card but we probably don't field enough pressure to make it work.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
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Edit:
Another cool synergy with Baral is with Kira. When she counters stuff you get a loot trigger.
Another upside to baral is the loot ability in general. It means you can ditch other copies of him, or more irrelevant cards, making sure you can keep looting. He fills your graveyard for moorland haunt
G Stompy G
UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR
UWB Spirits UWB
UWB Brain Control UWBWUB Esper Reveillark WUB
EDH:
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW
WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
Getting a slight discount on a handful of spells doesn't seem to be worth a card imho.
As a non-spirit I don't think that he is better than Thalia in the deck.
For looting another option can be Smuggler's Copter which is very good with Lingering Souls.
Second question: Is three always the right number of Geists?
This thread started out with UW builds and as we grew comfortable with the common interactions people started experimenting with various third colours. Bant Spirits has seen some success (including a major win) and has its own thread.
Lingering Souls is a very very strong card in our spirits builds, but it hasn't been enough on its own to justify stretching our mana base. With the addition of Fatal Push, Esper is looking pretty enticing.
That said, I think most people in this thread are still solidly UW.
For the most common UW Spirits builds, I think most of us agree the correct number of GOST is zero.
Nebelgast Herald does not excite me as an alternative. Maybe that changes with Metallic Mimic?
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Thalia is better by far in a Vial list. In my list, Thalia would be extremely detrimental.
My current list (not posted) for reference has:
4 Remand
2 Mana Leak
2 Kira Great Glass Spinner
1 Spell Pierce
4 Lingering Souls
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
All of which synergize with Baral.
And I'm thinking of taking out worship for Ojutai's Command for more counters, draws, and a way to get Baral back.
It seems to me like enough to merit an inclusion.
G Stompy G
UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR
UWB Spirits UWB
UWB Brain Control UWBWUB Esper Reveillark WUB
EDH:
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW
WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
The mimic though works with tokens, does that make it better?
Or would both of them be good?
Mimic doesn't receive benefits from Rattlechains, and isn't a 2/2.
Aside from that, it's much easier to cast, it affects tokens, it gets buffs from your other creatures, and it isn't legendary so it can stack.
G Stompy G
UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR
UWB Spirits UWB
UWB Brain Control UWBWUB Esper Reveillark WUB
EDH:
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW
WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
I can't speak for others, but i did try out a geist build a while ago. For me he just isn't needed. We don't need a 100% attacker. I find that every creature in the deck are win conditions. We attack with a horde of flyers most decks can't block. Not having flyig hurts a lot. In bant decks they can play geist turn 2, which makes him significantly better (but even then i don't like it). We have ways to protect our stuff too, the hexproof is sometimes redundant. Of course if you play geist it will win you games, but games that you would have lost otherwise?
So in short, we don't need more win conditions, we don't need a hexproof threat, we need more tempo and nebelgast herald excels at that.
Metallic Mimic seems to be a good 2-drop for the deck at this time but I think we are looking for something else (hopefully we get it in Amonkhet). As Ace1 already stated, we don't need to focus on building up large attackers, we need flying creatures that provide us with an additional benefit such as hexproof (Rattlechains) or indestructible (Selfless Spirit) while also able to chip in for some damage. I can only think of Faeries, Infect (Inkmoth Nexus) and Affinity (Ornithopter, Signal Pest) that always have fliers so most of the time our creatures are unblockable anyways. With Spell Queller and Nebelgast Herald we slow them down while attacking with our unblockable creatures.
The big boon of Metallic Mimic is the fact that it puts Spell Queller out of bolt range and makes Lingering Souls even better. The downside is that it is no spirit so it has no flash. Therefore, with Metallic Mimic we are more likely to tap out and become more of a beatdown tempo deck. This means cards like Remand and Mana Leak lose value and Aether Vial becomes worse as well, you want to play 4 Lingering Souls with the Metallic Mimic.
Testing will give us the final answer but I can see two options. An UW version like most of play now with Aether Vial and a focus on playing in the opponent's turn or a more BW Tokens like approach with Metallic Mimic, Lingering Souls and Inquisition of Kozilek
Could it be possible to play with 4 Zur the Enchanter or is that to cute?
It's a really cool card but attacking on turn 5 to find an Aura might be a bit on the slow side.. Also, it's not a spirit.. And it's legendary as well, so 4 might be too much as they will clog up your hand in multiples.
You can, but it would be a very different midrange type of deck.
Something like this:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/511929-esper-zur?page=17
3 Steel of the Godhead
3 Detention Sphere
I am not sure if the Favorable Wind would make it worth it but the Steel of the Godhead seems good.
Creatures:
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Rattlechains
3 Baral, Cheif of Compliance
4 Spell Queller
2 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
Instants:
4 Remand
3 Fatal Push
2 Path to Exile
2 Mana Leak
1 Spell Pierce
1 Ojutai's Command
Sorceries:
4 Lingering Souls
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Seachrome Coast
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Moorland Haunt
Very expiremental, but I have high hopes.
G Stompy G
UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR
UWB Spirits UWB
UWB Brain Control UWBWUB Esper Reveillark WUB
EDH:
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW
WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
Today went 2-0-1
win 2-1 vs merfolk, g1 i got master of waves'd to death, g2-3 i got the right mix of tempo with nebelgast and paths.
win 2-0 vs mono-blue tron, the matchup seemed pretty good, all their counters are medium vs us when we have vial and cavern. G2 nebelgast + image locked his sundering titan out of attacking, the game was close!
draw 1-1-1 vs budget b/w tokens, this matchup is always hard because of their flyers. G1 zealous persecution wiped my board and gave my opponent the win. G2 multiple lords and nebelgast got there. G3 we'll never know!
Still the same list, for reference:
4 path to exile
2 spell pierce
artifacts: 4
4 aether vial
creatures: 28
4 mausoleum wanderer
4 selfless spirit
4 rattlechains
2 thalia, guardian of thraben
2 phantasmal image
4 spell queller
4 drogskol captain
4 nebelgast herald
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
2 windswept heath
2 hallowed fountain
2 plains
2 island
2 seachrome coast
2 cavern of souls
2 moorland haunt
2 tectonic edge
2 ghost quarter
2 detention sphere
2 rest in peace
2 stony silence
2 eidolon of rhetoric
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 spellskite
1 kira, great glass spinner
Good to see these lists keep putting up good results, I was wondering what the reasoning is behind both Tectonic Edge and Ghost Quarter. I play 2 Ghost Quarter main since they can answer what needs to be gone in the early turns (Nexus, Tron lands), Tectonic Edge always seems too slow for me.. Getting 2 slots in the SB could be Lingering Souls, always an easy switch for some Nebelgast Herald when they don't matter that much.
In the matchups you described, i do like to have extra land destruction so i bring ghost quarters in. I also like having access to extra lands from the board for when i side out aether vials (vs jund or when i bring in stony silence). When we are vialess, hitting our land drops is more important.
I'm also considering swapping spellskites for blessed alliance in the sideboard. Seems like vs infect, bogles, etc, killing stuff might be better than holding them off of pumps. I do like skite as a blocker vs burn but killing a creature does the same thing as blocking one, except when they kill skite their creature can now attack. I also don't like to have artifacts G2-3 because they might bring hate for vials. Alliance being an instant plays well with our flash gameplan. And i'd rather topdeck alliance on a scary board.
Of course Aether Vial changes the math quite a bit, as do the Mana Dorks in the Bant version. But I'd like to hear people's thoughts on one-drops/Visions plan, and/or on Vial in general in this list.
I also did a little experimentation with Mana Tithe, which is a hilarious card but we probably don't field enough pressure to make it work.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon