How yeah i had the MW-queller trick figured out for quite some time, it is indeed a valuable trick to do.
What really makes tezz and vizier decks a pain is whir/chord can never be quelled. Very annoying. Grafdigger's cage is important here but it does nothing vs whir unfortunately.
How often do you actually get to abuse Vial? Part of me still doesn’t think Vial is necessary. Your creatures either have flash or get flash through Rattlechains. So are you playing Vial to cheat the creatures in or for the flash ability?
You are running an aggro deck, and some of your creatures gives protection to all of them or just the targeted one. If you get tapped to cast one spirit, and you need to protect it because the next turn you can protect the rest of the creatures (like for example, you cast a Drogskol, but you are tapped, but you have a Vial with 2 counters and have a Rattlechains in hand and another Drogksol). With just that your opponents are going to have a nightmare later on to get rid of all your flying creatures that will gain +2/+2 and Hexproof.
Also, depending on the way your are going to play. Me for example, when I run UW spirits without green or black, I love to play them with Eidolon of Rhetoric on mainboard, so I can play remands, cryptics... counters, and then still able to play with Vials the rest of my spirits while they can do nothing on that turn.
Just wanted to give a heads up for transparency. The mod team is looking to eventually merge this thread and the Bant Spirits thread into once "Modern Spirits" thread once a primer is made for it. It is in an attempt to consolidate discussions and clean up the forums a bit. If anyone has large problems with this eventual merge please message the mod team.
Do we have any late game tricks? I feel like this deck is great early but can super fall apart late. Like we need some sort of finisher. Geist is great, but that’s not what we need.
Do we have any late game tricks? I feel like this deck is great early but can super fall apart late. Like we need some sort of finisher. Geist is great, but that’s not what we need.
There's some options at four mana that could be worth trying out:
Cryptic Command can either close out a game you're winning or help you claw back if you're losing. Great card all around, but if you're building three colors the mana cost is kind of painful. Great in straight U/W builds, though.
Ojutai's Command is also interesting, but in my opinion it's just not strong enough for Modern. If the reanimation effect could get back Spell Queller I'd be trying it out, but it's been a bit disappointing every time I drew it.
Collected Company is a card people have already been talking about. It's a great way to punch your opponent in the face with value, but requires you to run green and means you can't run a lot of noncreature spells.
The argument with jace is that it's a 4cmc card (implying it's a dead card till turn 4/5) and leads you down the control route. I'm pretty sure our deck operates well as a tempo deck, plus it has to be built around sinergies.
Yesterday i have got to the top 2 of another 27 people tourney, and once again the key is the ability to analyze your opening 7 cards, and spend them to get the most value. this is why the deck is so flexible but also tends to evaporate so easily...
I encourage testing but after a year of playing it myself i get more and more convinced that big spells are not what the UW version is supposed to run or to draw.
Do you have a list we can see?
I love my spirit deck, however, I still feel as if it’s missing something. I refused to splash green for CoCo. UW Spirits has to work. Just need to figure it out. I was considering testing Reflector Mage as another tempo card, but not a spirit so it loses synergy. What are some other great tempo cards? Would Venser Shaper Savant work in this deck or too much mana here? Cryptic seems good but might be unneccessary. Ojutai’s command always seems dead for me. Jace is a billion dollars right now so I won’t be testing that anytime soon lol. I considered Lingering Souls, but it never felt right. Dusk//Dawn seems good. Idk, there’s gotta be something to complete this deck.
I’ve been mulling over the decision to go Bant and run CoCo. But the majority of me wants to resist and stick to UW and make it work. I’ve just been struggling to close out games. I tried Geist and he just feels clunky. I feel like the deck either needs a 2 mana lord, or a bouncing spirit like Reflector Mage but a 2 mana flier instead.
UW works, it just works differently. If one is trying to aggro with UW the way he was used to with bant, he will soon regret the lost of green, for example.
It's all in Wizards hands, depending on what playable spirit will come out next, we'll be able to say which between UW or Bant will perform the most. If a new lord get printed bant will take the most benefit. If a 2CMC unsubstantiate-like spirit will come out, UW will finally become a tier deck.
That’s a very good point. I was debating picking up some Snapcasters for the deck but ultimately decided they weren’t going to be worth it with our lower non creature spell count. I also run the all fliers version so he would be a little out of place. Is Ojutai’s Command any good in here with the higher creature count? Getting back a Rattlechains or selfless spirit seems solid.
I did like Oj. Command but as we previously discussed in this thread, 4CMC cards are dead cards till turn 4 or 5. You pick it in the opening 7 and you have a funcional mulligan. I ve been trying to sneak one of these very good top deck cards in my list for 10 months, then i finally came to the conclusion that, as Ace wrote, the best 4CMC card is collected, evry other 4CMC card is a worse version of the CoCo built.
I accepted this fact and some good results began to come.
as for snapcaster, i'll spoil here what i have prepared for "Alternative card selection" in the UW section of the primer for the new Modern Spirit thread:
Snapcaster Mage RATE 1/5 : You might be tempted to save a spot for Snapcaster Mage as we all know how good it is at generating advantage. The thing is, Snapcaster Mage requires a minimum density of istants or sorceries, and this will force you to dilute the number of creatures, and the number of synergies consequently. Did I mention it has no evading nor it's synergic?
I strongly suggest not to run either Snapcaster or Cryptic Command , stay light on land count and refrain from directing this tribe down the road modern Faeries have been forced to. They do not have this quantity of synergies, we do.
Thank you for the detailed analysis. That makes sense about Ojutai’s Command. I refuse to go Bant. How about Esper for Lingering Souls, Countersquall, Thoughtseize and/or Fatal Push?
It's been a while since I posted. I'm still on UW Spirits, and still tooling around with a Vial-less build using counter spells that tries to play as much of its game on the opponent's turn as possible.
Even though I love the card, I finally gave up on Shadow of Doubt. It could blow out games and was a lot of fun to play, but I took them out for 3x Chart a Course and have not looked back. The card is gas, and is an amazing T4 play with Mana Leak held up for the opponent's turn.
After adding the CaC I also decided to fit in 2 Snapcaster Mages. They fit with my flash game plan, and can often flash back a clutch Mana Tithe. It's not a spirit, but it deserves a spot in the deck.
With 4 Opt, 3 CaC, and a curve that tops at 3, I could see going to 20 lands and fitting in another Mana Leak, maybe. Haven't tried it yet.
I've also considered trying out some amount of Vapor Snags in the place of Paths since pathing things when I'm trying to cast Mana Tithes and Mana Leaks seems counter-intuitive, but we all know how essential Path can be in many matchups.
It's been a while since I posted. I'm still on UW Spirits, and still tooling around with a Vial-less build using counter spells that tries to play as much of its game on the opponent's turn as possible.
Even though I love the card, I finally gave up on Shadow of Doubt. It could blow out games and was a lot of fun to play, but I took them out for 3x Chart a Course and have not looked back. The card is gas, and is an amazing T4 play with Mana Leak held up for the opponent's turn.
After adding the CaC I also decided to fit in 2 Snapcaster Mages. They fit with my flash game plan, and can often flash back a clutch Mana Tithe. It's not a spirit, but it deserves a spot in the deck.
With 4 Opt, 3 CaC, and a curve that tops at 3, I could see going to 20 lands and fitting in another Mana Leak, maybe. Haven't tried it yet.
I've also considered trying out some amount of Vapor Snags in the place of Paths since pathing things when I'm trying to cast Mana Tithes and Mana Leaks seems counter-intuitive, but we all know how essential Path can be in many matchups.
Sorcery Speed on CaC has been fine since we have lots of evasive creatures and are attacking often. Rule of thumb with it is that you aren't in a rush to fire it off earlier than t4 (unless you have nothing else going on) since you almost always want to hold up some combination of Leak/Tithe/Queller/Rattlechains. When we play everything else on the opponent's turn, we can afford 1U to draw two cards on ours. It's also a card I love to see when I'm topdecking.
If we had a 2 cmc spirit that drew a card I would play that instead. Since we don't have one, CaC is our Silvergill Adept.
We've got 17 targets for Snapcaster, I'd say that's plenty for 2 Snaps.
Sorcery Speed on CaC has been fine since we have lots of evasive creatures and are attacking often. Rule of thumb with it is that you aren't in a rush to fire it off earlier than t4 (unless you have nothing else going on) since you almost always want to hold up some combination of Leak/Tithe/Queller/Rattlechains. When we play everything else on the opponent's turn, we can afford 1U to draw two cards on ours. It's also a card I love to see when I'm topdecking.
If we had a 2 cmc spirit that drew a card I would play that instead. Since we don't have one, CaC is our Silvergill Adept.
We've got 17 targets for Snapcaster, I'd say that's plenty for 2 Snaps.
I might have to test Chart a Course. Our lists are very similar. Idk about you, but I have trouble closing out games. I’ve been searching for some type of finisher or win condition. Geist doesn’t do it for me. I tried Cryptic and it seemed underwhelming for me also, I think that card belongs in a more control based deck. I was looking into testing Ephara God of the Polis. Ephara gets us a big late game body and constant fuel each turn. Maybe as a 2 of? Have you tried this card at all?
Let me point out " having a finisher" is something a control deck would want. Letting the game go longer hoping to peel off the top powerful cards is also a Midrange approach, which is not what Wizards had in their mind for us when they released Shadow over Innistrad and Eldritch Moon. UW spirits is not much about controlling and trading, it's rather a Tempo built.
You 'll read it in the primer about UW spirits in a couple of weeks at most i hope, but for now, let me say the reason you fail to close games is primarily owed to the blue-white Midrange interpretation you have of your deck.
So how do I fix that? Is it pilot error? I’ve been an elf player since day 1, so I may not be the best pilot for spirits. But I absolutely love the deck and would love to get better.
@Kizzel - The reason I found that I wasn't able to close out games was running out of gas. I've solved that problem with the Chart a Course and the Snapcasters. For a while I played around with an Archangel Avacyn or Teferi in the deck, but cards like that are no longer something I want. 5 mana is way too much. I'm just trying to get ahead with Leak/Tithe and stay ahead with Queller/Flash tricks, then refill with Chart a Course.
@StreexGeist I haven't seen Kizzel's list, but I would not call what I'm doing Midrange, I would say I'm tempo, as you describe. My only "4-drop" is Chart a Course.
More on not playing Vial since that's the number one comment I hear from people:
#1 - We're a worse tribe than Merfolk, and now Humans, 2 decks that can showcase Vial at its best. Vial is inherently strong which is why it's so often played... it does powerful things, but I just don't think we're the right tribe for the card with the tools that we have available. We already have cheap threats with flash, and our Spirits have no cantrips built in to refill our hand when we use vial to get ahead. I'd rather leave the mana up to flash in a Rattlechains and have another card in hand rather than a Vial on board.
#2 - There are so many Abrades, K Commands, Stony Silence, and Ancient Grudge in the format right now to combat Lantern and Hollow One that Vial is too easily killed. I guess you could hope that you get Vial up to 3 before they draw their hate so you can flash in a Queller to save it, but that doesn't seem great.
#3 - Vial is one of the worst draws in the format after the first few turns of the game. If there was a useful way to cycle it things would be different, but there's not.
Ultimately I am playing vial-less because this kind of build is more in line with the type of magic that I want to play, but I also think the deck has legit advantages for the reasons stated. I think the best possible spirits build is probably the Bant version Caleb Durward plays that uses Noble Heirarch to power out turn 2 Geist of Saint Traft and then floods the board with CoCo... still no Vial there.
I'm really hoping that Dominaria and Core Set 2019 give us another 2 CMC spirit with some kind of cantrip on it, as that's what I think we're really missing. Until then, I'm playing Chart a Course and Mana Leak.
Tring to win by keeping in check your opponent and then peel off a big threat is a possibility, but that is not anywhere synergyc, nor on curve, and will cause you to increase the number of lands, reduce the number of spirits and abuse of our sinergies leff requently. Oh and you'll have a number of functional mulligans because of the big spells. That's my issue with non-tempo approaches.
I think we agree on the approach. I consider what I'm doing tempo as well, just without the Vials. I'm ok trading a Mana Leak or Mana Tithe 1-for-1 when my next play is a Spell Queller or flashed-in Rattle Chains that 2-for1's them. I'm not trying to rip a big threat, but to get ahead of the opponent and stay ahead with card advantage. I still think that's synergistic with the game plan of playing all my spells on the opponent's turn and getting them with my tricks.
My last thoughts on Vial: it's a great card and I have played with it a lot for years (even in this deck!). But my personal experience with UW spirits is that the deck plays more the way that I want it to with spells in those slots, and I have had greater success against a wider field with this version of the deck. That could come down mostly to my own strengths as a player more than the cards, I don't know. I love the trickiness that spirits bring to the table and I find that's amplified by including a few choice instants and a couple Snapcasters.
My preference for a build with no vial isn't meant as an attack on your build, but just bringing to the table an alternate build that my experience with the tribe has shown to be successful for me.
... I still think we need a cantrip spirit to really break through.
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What really makes tezz and vizier decks a pain is whir/chord can never be quelled. Very annoying. Grafdigger's cage is important here but it does nothing vs whir unfortunately.
Also, depending on the way your are going to play. Me for example, when I run UW spirits without green or black, I love to play them with Eidolon of Rhetoric on mainboard, so I can play remands, cryptics... counters, and then still able to play with Vials the rest of my spirits while they can do nothing on that turn.
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Staff- Torpf
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
There's some options at four mana that could be worth trying out:
Cryptic Command can either close out a game you're winning or help you claw back if you're losing. Great card all around, but if you're building three colors the mana cost is kind of painful. Great in straight U/W builds, though.
Ojutai's Command is also interesting, but in my opinion it's just not strong enough for Modern. If the reanimation effect could get back Spell Queller I'd be trying it out, but it's been a bit disappointing every time I drew it.
Collected Company is a card people have already been talking about. It's a great way to punch your opponent in the face with value, but requires you to run green and means you can't run a lot of noncreature spells.
Do you have a list we can see?
I love my spirit deck, however, I still feel as if it’s missing something. I refused to splash green for CoCo. UW Spirits has to work. Just need to figure it out. I was considering testing Reflector Mage as another tempo card, but not a spirit so it loses synergy. What are some other great tempo cards? Would Venser Shaper Savant work in this deck or too much mana here? Cryptic seems good but might be unneccessary. Ojutai’s command always seems dead for me. Jace is a billion dollars right now so I won’t be testing that anytime soon lol. I considered Lingering Souls, but it never felt right. Dusk//Dawn seems good. Idk, there’s gotta be something to complete this deck.
That’s a very good point. I was debating picking up some Snapcasters for the deck but ultimately decided they weren’t going to be worth it with our lower non creature spell count. I also run the all fliers version so he would be a little out of place. Is Ojutai’s Command any good in here with the higher creature count? Getting back a Rattlechains or selfless spirit seems solid.
Thank you for the detailed analysis. That makes sense about Ojutai’s Command. I refuse to go Bant. How about Esper for Lingering Souls, Countersquall, Thoughtseize and/or Fatal Push?
Even though I love the card, I finally gave up on Shadow of Doubt. It could blow out games and was a lot of fun to play, but I took them out for 3x Chart a Course and have not looked back. The card is gas, and is an amazing T4 play with Mana Leak held up for the opponent's turn.
After adding the CaC I also decided to fit in 2 Snapcaster Mages. They fit with my flash game plan, and can often flash back a clutch Mana Tithe. It's not a spirit, but it deserves a spot in the deck.
With 4 Opt, 3 CaC, and a curve that tops at 3, I could see going to 20 lands and fitting in another Mana Leak, maybe. Haven't tried it yet.
I've also considered trying out some amount of Vapor Snags in the place of Paths since pathing things when I'm trying to cast Mana Tithes and Mana Leaks seems counter-intuitive, but we all know how essential Path can be in many matchups.
4x Mausoleum Wanderer
4x Rattlechains
4x Selfless Spirit
4x Spell Queller
3x Drogskol Captain
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Geist of Saint Traft
Instants (14)
4x Opt
4x Path to Exile
3x Mana Leak
3x Mana Tithe
3x Chart a Course
Land (21)
4x Flooded Strand
4x Seachrome Coast
4x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Plains
2x Cavern of Souls
2x Condemn
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Dispel
2x Stony Silence
2x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Worship
How has the sorcery speed of Chart a Course been working out for you? Also, do you usually find you have enough targets for Snapcasters?
If we had a 2 cmc spirit that drew a card I would play that instead. Since we don't have one, CaC is our Silvergill Adept.
We've got 17 targets for Snapcaster, I'd say that's plenty for 2 Snaps.
I might have to test Chart a Course. Our lists are very similar. Idk about you, but I have trouble closing out games. I’ve been searching for some type of finisher or win condition. Geist doesn’t do it for me. I tried Cryptic and it seemed underwhelming for me also, I think that card belongs in a more control based deck. I was looking into testing Ephara God of the Polis. Ephara gets us a big late game body and constant fuel each turn. Maybe as a 2 of? Have you tried this card at all?
So how do I fix that? Is it pilot error? I’ve been an elf player since day 1, so I may not be the best pilot for spirits. But I absolutely love the deck and would love to get better.
@StreexGeist I haven't seen Kizzel's list, but I would not call what I'm doing Midrange, I would say I'm tempo, as you describe. My only "4-drop" is Chart a Course.
More on not playing Vial since that's the number one comment I hear from people:
#1 - We're a worse tribe than Merfolk, and now Humans, 2 decks that can showcase Vial at its best. Vial is inherently strong which is why it's so often played... it does powerful things, but I just don't think we're the right tribe for the card with the tools that we have available. We already have cheap threats with flash, and our Spirits have no cantrips built in to refill our hand when we use vial to get ahead. I'd rather leave the mana up to flash in a Rattlechains and have another card in hand rather than a Vial on board.
#2 - There are so many Abrades, K Commands, Stony Silence, and Ancient Grudge in the format right now to combat Lantern and Hollow One that Vial is too easily killed. I guess you could hope that you get Vial up to 3 before they draw their hate so you can flash in a Queller to save it, but that doesn't seem great.
#3 - Vial is one of the worst draws in the format after the first few turns of the game. If there was a useful way to cycle it things would be different, but there's not.
Ultimately I am playing vial-less because this kind of build is more in line with the type of magic that I want to play, but I also think the deck has legit advantages for the reasons stated. I think the best possible spirits build is probably the Bant version Caleb Durward plays that uses Noble Heirarch to power out turn 2 Geist of Saint Traft and then floods the board with CoCo... still no Vial there.
I'm really hoping that Dominaria and Core Set 2019 give us another 2 CMC spirit with some kind of cantrip on it, as that's what I think we're really missing. Until then, I'm playing Chart a Course and Mana Leak.
I think we agree on the approach. I consider what I'm doing tempo as well, just without the Vials. I'm ok trading a Mana Leak or Mana Tithe 1-for-1 when my next play is a Spell Queller or flashed-in Rattle Chains that 2-for1's them. I'm not trying to rip a big threat, but to get ahead of the opponent and stay ahead with card advantage. I still think that's synergistic with the game plan of playing all my spells on the opponent's turn and getting them with my tricks.
My last thoughts on Vial: it's a great card and I have played with it a lot for years (even in this deck!). But my personal experience with UW spirits is that the deck plays more the way that I want it to with spells in those slots, and I have had greater success against a wider field with this version of the deck. That could come down mostly to my own strengths as a player more than the cards, I don't know. I love the trickiness that spirits bring to the table and I find that's amplified by including a few choice instants and a couple Snapcasters.
My preference for a build with no vial isn't meant as an attack on your build, but just bringing to the table an alternate build that my experience with the tribe has shown to be successful for me.
... I still think we need a cantrip spirit to really break through.