what is the best way to beat boggles and should it be a good matchup for us?
in my experience is a bad matchup. The best way to beat them is to block ASAP with delver (flipped, yes I know it's hard) and other creatures you control. Also, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare Mana Leak are your best friends here since you can get rid of most of the enchantments and creatures this way. After that, pyromancer // Tasigur // Angler will take care of everything.
If you have counters in hand, do not use serum visions until you have 3 lands since you will need to respond every turn with counters.
Also opponent target spells are not good post sideboard.
You have to watch for Dryad Arbor; Bogles often runs this just on account of edict effects. There are, of course, cheaper edicts; Self-Inflicted Wound is narrower but better against Boggles
It's just playing a more proactive gameplan - stormchaser mage and jori en with clout on them are basically unkillable against the majority of the field, and in addition to just crapping all over affinity, stormchaser mage is nearly unboltable, and naturally does a lot of work with bolts and the like. Inquisition is there to clear the way for clout, trigger prowess, and draw cards.
I play terminate and vapor snag at the moment because the top decks are affinity, abzan company, and eldrazi. Especially in my local meta, but also at a tournament level, and packing the extra creature hate is just big. With the majority of the clock being in the air, vapor snag is a lot like remand a lot of the time.
Clout is also not "only good in very few cases". It makes stormchaser a 3/5 naturally, shrouds all of the fliers, and makes a jori en a 4/5, which in addition to just being very large, keeps it around to draw more gas. Delver being a 4/3 shroud is also a lot more relevant than you seem to be considering.
I will freely admit that there certainly are matchups where i board out jori en/clout, but they are less frequent than the ones where those cards truly shine.
The main reason I'm at Grixis and not straight u/r is the lack of removal without a third color. Im addition, the inquisition / thoughtseize are great at protecting the guys to clout up.
I'm not saying this is perfect by any means, and perhaps vapor snag is a bit off here, but i won't exactly know quite yet.
I do disagree on clout needing stormchaser or jori en for clout to be strong. Putting it on delver and vclique is, again, much better than you seem to think.
The improved matchups are any that go eveb remotely long. Jori En trigger just 1-2 times can easily be enough by itself. It's a must answer or lose card for most decks simply due to being able to out-gas everything else.
I don't see why you're so opposed to putting clout on Delver. A 4/3 shroud flying on turn 2-3 is much better than a 3/2 flying on turn 2-3.
I can get behind not playing snag and opting for pierce/snare or something along those lines, but i think you're being hasty and narrow-minded in saying clout can only go on stormchaser or jori en to be strong
I honestly don't see how cutting black completely for inferior removal & playing more prowess creatures with more countermagic could possibly be better. All for blood moon in the board? I don't find that to make much sense.
I tried a list very similar to this when stormchaser came out, but after some testing I felt it was just trying to do to much and it turned into the prowess deck. If you are having success with it that's awesome and keep it up, we need more delver in this format.
I guess i just don't see how more counters with more prowess creatures makes for more synergy. I don't really like how your idea to improve my build is to play a completely different deck.
I've been testing this deck a TON for GP LA, and honestly, I've found Young Pyromancer to be wildly disappointing. It either eats a killspell and does nothing, or chumpsalot and then you die anyway when you run out of ways to make tokens.
Anyone else have any thoughts?
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I guess i just don't see how more counters with more prowess creatures makes for more synergy. I don't really like how your idea to improve my build is to play a completely different deck.
I was considering trying something similar, a burn/delver hybrid, but I am not sold on your list. Like someone mentioned, the vapor snag AND terminate thing seems unnecessary, and I don't like the lack of swiftspear. Also not sold on clout, it only is super useful on a few creatures and it does not trigger delver or work with snap, I believe additional counters is just better.
I think for that kind of list, either green (for atarka's command, simic charm, and goyf, maybe one hootie) or white (lightning helix, boros charm) are better splashes than black.
Most Grixis Delver pilots don't run hand disruption MB because it is not part of the game plan. The need for hand disruption is situational-which is why most run some number of Thoughtseize in the SB. Hand disruption only becomes relevant for Delver in combo match ups (Ad Nauseam, Goryo's Vengeance, etc.) and some control match ups (like Tron).
I took this list -1 vapor snag +1 dispel to a local win a goyf event and did indeed win the goyf. I played against two u/w eldrazi, abzan company, goblins, merfolk, and a budget mono green stompy deck. I lost one round vs. Eldrazi and won the rest.
Best card all day was Clout. Not even close. It was just gas every time I drew it. In the finals I put it on a Delver two games and just smashed face behind a hand of removal while he was sitting on bolts that couldn't kill it. Against merfolk it made a stormchaser mage take over the match, and against eldrazi it let me block everything he could put down.
Jori En also took over two seperate games, providing tons of gas & ground blocking.
I did end up boarding out stormchaser + clout against a couple decks for pyromancers + snags, but all in all it performed extremely well, with a ton of play in every scenario. Super pleased with the performance + smooth play.
I did find kolaghans command to be a little lackluster compared to electrolyze, and do wish i had a second Tasigur, though. I also wonder if thoughtseize would be better than the remands, but it's too small of a sample size to tell.
I forgot to post this a while ago but I beat my buddy 2-1 playing his UR Eldrazi deck. I found that the games I won he couldn't deal with pyromancer. should we have a good Eldrazi matchup at all?
what are some good SB cards for GBx decks? (I know they're not a huge problem at all but thought I'd ask)
Here is my list I have been running lately. It's been over performing in my local meta which is full of jund, affinity, infect, and fish. The only matchup I've been having problems with is big zoo which is randomly popular locally. Anyone have any advice on beating that deck?
I forgot to post this a while ago but I beat my buddy 2-1 playing his UR Eldrazi deck. I found that the games I won he couldn't deal with pyromancer. should we have a good Eldrazi matchup at all?
what are some good SB cards for GBx decks? (I know they're not a huge problem at all but thought I'd ask)
Here is my list I have been running lately. It's been over performing in my local meta which is full of jund, affinity, infect, and fish. The only matchup I've been having problems with is big zoo which is randomly popular locally. Anyone have any advice on beating that deck?
Maybe it's time to drop the Gitaxian Probe? For a more midrange plan, like more removal? How are performing this decision for you? My meta it's pretty similar, with the adition of Burn and Tron.
I have not missed Gitaxian Probe at all. There's no burn or tron floating around my meta, which is great for me since I feel like they are probably my 2 worst matchups
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You have to watch for Dryad Arbor; Bogles often runs this just on account of edict effects. There are, of course, cheaper edicts; Self-Inflicted Wound is narrower but better against Boggles
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Jori En, Ruin Diver
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Mana Leak
3 Remand
4 Serum Visions
3 Terminate
2 Clout of the Dominus
2 Vapor Snag
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Murderous Cut
2 Dispel
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Terminate
3 Thoughtseize
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
2 Forked Bolt
Engineered Explosives is very good against Bogles.
I play terminate and vapor snag at the moment because the top decks are affinity, abzan company, and eldrazi. Especially in my local meta, but also at a tournament level, and packing the extra creature hate is just big. With the majority of the clock being in the air, vapor snag is a lot like remand a lot of the time.
Clout is also not "only good in very few cases". It makes stormchaser a 3/5 naturally, shrouds all of the fliers, and makes a jori en a 4/5, which in addition to just being very large, keeps it around to draw more gas. Delver being a 4/3 shroud is also a lot more relevant than you seem to be considering.
I will freely admit that there certainly are matchups where i board out jori en/clout, but they are less frequent than the ones where those cards truly shine.
I'm not saying this is perfect by any means, and perhaps vapor snag is a bit off here, but i won't exactly know quite yet.
I do disagree on clout needing stormchaser or jori en for clout to be strong. Putting it on delver and vclique is, again, much better than you seem to think.
The improved matchups are any that go eveb remotely long. Jori En trigger just 1-2 times can easily be enough by itself. It's a must answer or lose card for most decks simply due to being able to out-gas everything else.
I don't see why you're so opposed to putting clout on Delver. A 4/3 shroud flying on turn 2-3 is much better than a 3/2 flying on turn 2-3.
I can get behind not playing snag and opting for pierce/snare or something along those lines, but i think you're being hasty and narrow-minded in saying clout can only go on stormchaser or jori en to be strong
I tried a list very similar to this when stormchaser came out, but after some testing I felt it was just trying to do to much and it turned into the prowess deck. If you are having success with it that's awesome and keep it up, we need more delver in this format.
Anyone else have any thoughts?
I was considering trying something similar, a burn/delver hybrid, but I am not sold on your list. Like someone mentioned, the vapor snag AND terminate thing seems unnecessary, and I don't like the lack of swiftspear. Also not sold on clout, it only is super useful on a few creatures and it does not trigger delver or work with snap, I believe additional counters is just better.
I think for that kind of list, either green (for atarka's command, simic charm, and goyf, maybe one hootie) or white (lightning helix, boros charm) are better splashes than black.
But why is inquisition not played by most? Good MB card. I know we want to play a blue spell turn one but it's still good at many points in the game.
Best card all day was Clout. Not even close. It was just gas every time I drew it. In the finals I put it on a Delver two games and just smashed face behind a hand of removal while he was sitting on bolts that couldn't kill it. Against merfolk it made a stormchaser mage take over the match, and against eldrazi it let me block everything he could put down.
Jori En also took over two seperate games, providing tons of gas & ground blocking.
I did end up boarding out stormchaser + clout against a couple decks for pyromancers + snags, but all in all it performed extremely well, with a ton of play in every scenario. Super pleased with the performance + smooth play.
I did find kolaghans command to be a little lackluster compared to electrolyze, and do wish i had a second Tasigur, though. I also wonder if thoughtseize would be better than the remands, but it's too small of a sample size to tell.
what are some good SB cards for GBx decks? (I know they're not a huge problem at all but thought I'd ask)
1x Dispel
1x Doom Blade
1x Electrolyze
1x Izzet Charm
2x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Mana Leak
1x Murderous Cut
1x Spell Snare
3x Terminate
4x Thought Scour
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Darkslick Shores
1x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
2x Steam Vents
1x Sulfur Falls
1x Swamp
1x Watery Grave
4x Serum Visions
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Gurmag Angler
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Young Pyromancer
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Counterflux
1x Countersquall
2x Death's Shadow
2x Izzet Staticaster
1x Keranos, God of Storms
3x Molten Rain
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1x Rough/Tumble
1x Smash to Smithereens
that's a really good list, thanks. I already run blood moons but the rest are great too
Maybe it's time to drop the Gitaxian Probe? For a more midrange plan, like more removal? How are performing this decision for you? My meta it's pretty similar, with the adition of Burn and Tron.
Primers
4C Walkers