I want to add a Keranos, God of Storms but don't know what to cut. My guess would be Spellskite, but there's a lot of Bogles, infect, and burn in my meta.
I want to add a Keranos, God of Storms but don't know what to cut. My guess would be Spellskite, but there's a lot of Bogles, infect, and burn in my meta.
Bogles, infect and burn are terribly fast decks that you need to stabilize against, and you want to add a 5 cmc long game spell in a deck with 19 lands?
And the card you want to cut basically hoses infect, bogles and burn. Its the last thing you should cut. I would cut counterflux first, but then again, why would you even want Keranos? Against the 3 decks you've mentioned, you'll hardly ever get to 5 mana.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I want to add a Keranos, God of Storms but don't know what to cut. My guess would be Spellskite, but there's a lot of Bogles, infect, and burn in my meta.
Bogles, infect and burn are terribly fast decks that you need to stabilize against, and you want to add a 5 cmc long game spell in a deck with 19 lands?
And the card you want to cut basically hoses infect, bogles and burn. Its the last thing you should cut. I would cut counterflux first, but then again, why would you even want Keranos? Against the 3 decks you've mentioned, you'll hardly ever get to 5 mana.
Last time we had 2 Bogles, 3 Burn and 3 infect. However, we had every other Tier 1 and 2 deck. My store has a huge meta. It's the largest in the state and we usually have 30+ people. I was thinking about Keranos for the grinder match ups.
Thats what you have Tasigur for. Tasigur is the card that brought Delver back in Grixis colors post-cruise, precisely because he could be cast at a low cost thanks to the abundance of cantrips in the Delver deck. So he brings you cards during the late game, and he isn't dead before turn 5, in fact he can hit the board turn 2. Expecting a longer game? Pack extra Tasigurs, or maybe an Angler so you can have 2 fatties on the board at the same time.
This flexibility is greatly needed in Modern where things could go long but are mostly ending short. Keranos will very often be a dead card in your hand. A starting hand with Keranos in it, is going to be horrible.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
So I went and played at weekly Modern tourney tonight. This is how the matches went.
Match 1 : Blue Moon : 2-1
Game 1: This game was fairly grindy. I ended up just valuing him out after getting a few threats to stick and finished him off with a snapcaster and lightning bolt.
Game 2: I got stuck on two shock lands and he landed a turn 3 blood moon. With only blue cards in hands, I stood little chance.
Game 3: I fetched out mostly basics and the game went very much like game 1.
Match 2 : URW Twin : 2-0
Game 1: I stuck a turn 2 Tasigur and was able to protect it for a few turns to get enough damage in and finished off my opponent with burn.
Game 2: This game went longer and was mostly filled with a bunch of value plays. The allstar of this match was Ashiok allowing me late game to exile his snapcasters and play them myself for tons of value.
Match 3 : Boggles : 1-2
Game 1: Didn't have many good maindeck answers to his hexproof creatures and lost to a very well sequenced group of enchantments.
Game 2: Was able to land an Engineered Explosives and kill off his entire board. He was not able to recover from that point and I finished him off with two Delvers.
Game 3: I didn't draw any of my sideboard cards and got punished for it. Game 3 went much like game 1.
Match 4: Storm : 2-1
Game 1: I kept a slower hand and was punished when my opponent stormed out early in the game.
Game 2: I brought in Dispels and and ended up winning of a Rakdos Charm exiling his graveyard.
Game 3: I was able to disrupt his combo with Snapcasters and Spell Snares. Ended up winning with a Young Pyromancer pumping out tons of tokens.
Match 5: Zoo? : 2-1
Game 1: My opponent was running a strange zoo/burn hybrid that was able to belch out tons of creatures with COCO but also had burn answers for my threats. I lost hard game 1 to two Goyfs, Voice of Resurgence, and a few other creatures hitting early.
Game 2: After sideboard I was more effectively able to tempo out his plays and won with an Angler and Tasigur late in the game.
Game 3: Much like game two except I won by keeping a couple early delvers alive.
Ended up splitting with top 8 at the end of the night.
End thoughts:
I liked how the deck played tonight however there are some changes I want to try out. I had some weird draws and didn't have many chances to pull off some of the cooler shenanigans this deck is capable of. I'd like some opinions of the deck list and any potential changes you think I should make. I'm fairly happy with what I have at the moment. I wish I could afford Scalding Tarns at the moment but that's an upgrade that will have to hold out on for a while. I plan on adding in a Spellskite and 2 Thoughtseizes to the sideboard at some point as well.
I have a very similar list with spell pierce and another terminate instead of remand. Thoughtseize/IoK are great against Tron and Storm. I like a couple of Spellskites in my SB against Bogles and Burn which are some of our tougher matchups. I feel that aggro decks with tons of removal are the worst match ups. It is hard to tempo them out even with an early flipped delver. Young Pyromancer shines against creature-based srategies as his tokens are able to stall the board long enough for Tasigur or Gurmag to take over. I am thinking of increasing the number of countermagics to protect our creatures as i tend to lose more when trading one for one.
Against most decks i feel that the best approach is to play aggressively. Cast bolts to to the face behind a flipped delver and recur with snaps. Most matchups i lost was when i tried to be the control, holding on to bolts as removals. Although the deck can play grindy behind KCommands and snaps, getting them within burn's reach forces them to play defensively and allow us to play more threats to go for the kill as we don't have a lot of huge answers late game like cryptic command.
Yeah, tried to hyperlink it, but none of the buttons on this site work on my phone, whether in mobile view or desktop view. It's the same reason I sometimes don't use deck/card tags--can't do it if I post with my phone.
The move wasn't too hasty. If you look at the way tiers are determined, it's not simply by having an arbitrary amount of top8 finishes in some tournaments. Rather it's to have an above average presence(but lower than 2 standard deviations higher than the average) in the metagame at large. And if you look at that data, gathered over on www.modennexus.com/topdecks, you can see that delver doesn't have that presense.
This. The forum moves are based on data, and that data is readily available on Modern Nexus and on the forum itself.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Other than counters, what are the best ways to deal with Rest in Peace for Delver? Heavy Jeskai Control meta at my LGS and it's a frequent sideboard card.
Other than counters, what are the best ways to deal with Rest in Peace for Delver? Heavy Jeskai Control meta at my LGS and it's a frequent sideboard card.
No answer. Rely less heavily on the GY, by using other threats/grinders like PKN, Ashiok, Jace AOT, Chandra Pyromaster, Keranos if you run 19 lands, and side out most of your delve spells, maybe leaving 1 or 2 tasigurs.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Other than counters, what are the best ways to deal with Rest in Peace for Delver? Heavy Jeskai Control meta at my LGS and it's a frequent sideboard card.
Both Thoughtseize and Engineered Explosives are sort of sideboard staples and should both do the trick. Otherwise as you say our counter suite is excellent for that card as all of Spell pierce, Spell snare and Mana leak will hit it.
I won a match with the black leyline on oppening hand by thought scour my opponent (Grixis Control). It was a fun win I even hard casted Gurmag Angler FTW. Also spell snare on hand against deck with the card can help to do something about it.
has anyone tested Painful Truths? I've been testing it in my Grixis midrange and its been great of if you don't draw into three lands the CA is normally back breaking. B/G/X decks really can't deal with that type of card advantage; 1 card often invalidates most of their first 3 turns.
Moving this thread from tier 2 was premature. These are just SCG events, but the deck has 4 top 8s at modern IQs in the last 6 weeks.
So my list is the one that took first place a few weeks ago in Fayetteville. I ended up splitting with GR tron (only person I lost to in the swiss) in the finals and taking the qualification since my qualification was about to run out. The next weekend I went to a 1k super where I missed Top 8 on breakers and this past weekend I walked away with first place at another IQ. Here is my current 75.
One of the the bigger changes I've made to the main board is cutting an Electrolyze for an Izzet Charm. A little bit of reasoning behind this is that there are already two "split effects" in the main in the form of forked bolts (which have been amazing) and a 3 effect, especially at 3 mana, is a bit much. Also, in the short time I've run Izzet Charm I have used a different relevant mode on it every time. It hits creatures, draws cards and fuels delve, but most importantly it can also act as a spell pierce which has been very important to help shore match ups that we are weak in. It has nabbed everything from karns to boros charms game 1 and changed the tides games all by itself.
Speaking of tron, the meta around me is kind of full of it and my sideboard now has 2 GQ for them. I flirted with the idea of running blood moon or fulminator mage, both I'm still considering but the biggest issue I have with them is that we are a 18-19 land deck that runs a very greedy mana base, hitting 3 mana on turn three can't always be counted on and in the match ups where we need blood moon/fulm. mage the most (tron and bloom) if we stumble on our land drops we're dead. Anyway, that's my reasoning for GQ right now. I also have been bringing in surgical extraction and actively thought scouring my opponents and extraction the first titan/tron piece that I see. Surgical extraction does say "nonbasic land" which is a little bit of text I did not realize until recently.
Burn still sucks, I haven't liked vampiric link or dragon's claw but I dislike dragon's claw less. Spellsnare, negate, and dispel do more for us in those match ups anyway.
has anyone tested Painful Truths? I've been testing it in my Grixis midrange and its been great of if you don't draw into three lands the CA is normally back breaking. B/G/X decks really can't deal with that type of card advantage; 1 card often invalidates most of their first 3 turns.
Basically? Its too painful. We take alot from lands already, and adding another 3 damage to the mix will usually result in a L for us as we cant even guarantee that we can do anything with those cards for another turn. You could try it in the SB as a 1-of, but no more than that is really feasible
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." --Jaya Ballard
To learn more about the December metagame update, reflecting data collected throughout November, check out the following post below:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/566735-modern-metagame-breakdown-and-discussion-updated?comment=906
2 Spellskite
2 Vampiric Link
1 Dragon's Claw
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Counterflux
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Flashfreeze
I want to add a Keranos, God of Storms but don't know what to cut. My guess would be Spellskite, but there's a lot of Bogles, infect, and burn in my meta.
Bogles, infect and burn are terribly fast decks that you need to stabilize against, and you want to add a 5 cmc long game spell in a deck with 19 lands?
And the card you want to cut basically hoses infect, bogles and burn. Its the last thing you should cut. I would cut counterflux first, but then again, why would you even want Keranos? Against the 3 decks you've mentioned, you'll hardly ever get to 5 mana.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Last time we had 2 Bogles, 3 Burn and 3 infect. However, we had every other Tier 1 and 2 deck. My store has a huge meta. It's the largest in the state and we usually have 30+ people. I was thinking about Keranos for the grinder match ups.
This flexibility is greatly needed in Modern where things could go long but are mostly ending short. Keranos will very often be a dead card in your hand. A starting hand with Keranos in it, is going to be horrible.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Darkslick Shores
2x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
2x Steam Vents
1x Sulfur Falls
1x Swamp
1x Watery Grave
Sorcery (9)
2x Forked Bolt
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Serum Visions
2x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Mana Leak
1x Murderous Cut
2x Remand
2x Spell Snare
2x Terminate
4x Thought Scour
Creature (14)
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Gurmag Angler
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Young Pyromancer
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Blood Moon
2x Dispel
1x Dragon's Claw
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Flashfreeze
1x Go for the Throat
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Negate
1x Rakdos Charm
1x Rise/Fall
1x Vampiric Link
So I went and played at weekly Modern tourney tonight. This is how the matches went.
Match 1 : Blue Moon : 2-1
Game 1: This game was fairly grindy. I ended up just valuing him out after getting a few threats to stick and finished him off with a snapcaster and lightning bolt.
Game 2: I got stuck on two shock lands and he landed a turn 3 blood moon. With only blue cards in hands, I stood little chance.
Game 3: I fetched out mostly basics and the game went very much like game 1.
Match 2 : URW Twin : 2-0
Game 1: I stuck a turn 2 Tasigur and was able to protect it for a few turns to get enough damage in and finished off my opponent with burn.
Game 2: This game went longer and was mostly filled with a bunch of value plays. The allstar of this match was Ashiok allowing me late game to exile his snapcasters and play them myself for tons of value.
Match 3 : Boggles : 1-2
Game 1: Didn't have many good maindeck answers to his hexproof creatures and lost to a very well sequenced group of enchantments.
Game 2: Was able to land an Engineered Explosives and kill off his entire board. He was not able to recover from that point and I finished him off with two Delvers.
Game 3: I didn't draw any of my sideboard cards and got punished for it. Game 3 went much like game 1.
Match 4: Storm : 2-1
Game 1: I kept a slower hand and was punished when my opponent stormed out early in the game.
Game 2: I brought in Dispels and and ended up winning of a Rakdos Charm exiling his graveyard.
Game 3: I was able to disrupt his combo with Snapcasters and Spell Snares. Ended up winning with a Young Pyromancer pumping out tons of tokens.
Match 5: Zoo? : 2-1
Game 1: My opponent was running a strange zoo/burn hybrid that was able to belch out tons of creatures with COCO but also had burn answers for my threats. I lost hard game 1 to two Goyfs, Voice of Resurgence, and a few other creatures hitting early.
Game 2: After sideboard I was more effectively able to tempo out his plays and won with an Angler and Tasigur late in the game.
Game 3: Much like game two except I won by keeping a couple early delvers alive.
Ended up splitting with top 8 at the end of the night.
End thoughts:
I liked how the deck played tonight however there are some changes I want to try out. I had some weird draws and didn't have many chances to pull off some of the cooler shenanigans this deck is capable of. I'd like some opinions of the deck list and any potential changes you think I should make. I'm fairly happy with what I have at the moment. I wish I could afford Scalding Tarns at the moment but that's an upgrade that will have to hold out on for a while. I plan on adding in a Spellskite and 2 Thoughtseizes to the sideboard at some point as well.
Against most decks i feel that the best approach is to play aggressively. Cast bolts to to the face behind a flipped delver and recur with snaps. Most matchups i lost was when i tried to be the control, holding on to bolts as removals. Although the deck can play grindy behind KCommands and snaps, getting them within burn's reach forces them to play defensively and allow us to play more threats to go for the kill as we don't have a lot of huge answers late game like cryptic command.
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t[T2]=28&event_ID=&feedin=&start_date=10/31/2015&end_date=12/13/2015&city=&state=&country=&start=&finish=&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name[1]=Delver of Secrets&simple_card_name[2]=Snapcaster Mage&simple_card_name[3]=Young Pyromancer&simple_card_name[4]=Thought Scour&simple_card_name[5]=Gurmag Angler&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison[1]=>=&card_qty[1]=1&card_name[1]=&comparison[2]=>=&card_qty[2]=1&card_name[2]=&comparison[3]=>=&card_qty[3]=1&card_name[3]=&comparison[4]=>=&card_qty[4]=1&card_name[4]=&comparison[5]=>=&card_qty[5]=1&card_name[5]=&sb_comparison[1]=>=&sb_card_qty[1]=1&sb_card_name[1]=&sb_comparison[2]=>=&sb_card_qty[2]=1&sb_card_name[2]=&card_not[1]=&card_not[2]=&card_not[3]=&card_not[4]=&card_not[5]=&order_1=finish&order_2=&limit=25&action=Show Decks&p=1
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
No answer. Rely less heavily on the GY, by using other threats/grinders like PKN, Ashiok, Jace AOT, Chandra Pyromaster, Keranos if you run 19 lands, and side out most of your delve spells, maybe leaving 1 or 2 tasigurs.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I won a match with the black leyline on oppening hand by thought scour my opponent (Grixis Control). It was a fun win I even hard casted Gurmag Angler FTW. Also spell snare on hand against deck with the card can help to do something about it.
So my list is the one that took first place a few weeks ago in Fayetteville. I ended up splitting with GR tron (only person I lost to in the swiss) in the finals and taking the qualification since my qualification was about to run out. The next weekend I went to a 1k super where I missed Top 8 on breakers and this past weekend I walked away with first place at another IQ. Here is my current 75.
1x Blood Crypt
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Darkslick Shores
2x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
1x Swamp
1x Watery Grave
Creature (14)
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Gurmag Angler
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Young Pyromancer
1x Dispel
1x Izzet Charm
2x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Mana Leak
1x Murderous Cut
3x Terminate
4x Thought Scour
Sorcery (9)
2x Forked Bolt
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Serum Visions
1x Dismember
1x Dispel
2x Dragon's Claw
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Negate
1x Rough/Tumble
1x Spell Snare
1x Spellskite
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
One of the the bigger changes I've made to the main board is cutting an Electrolyze for an Izzet Charm. A little bit of reasoning behind this is that there are already two "split effects" in the main in the form of forked bolts (which have been amazing) and a 3 effect, especially at 3 mana, is a bit much. Also, in the short time I've run Izzet Charm I have used a different relevant mode on it every time. It hits creatures, draws cards and fuels delve, but most importantly it can also act as a spell pierce which has been very important to help shore match ups that we are weak in. It has nabbed everything from karns to boros charms game 1 and changed the tides games all by itself.
Speaking of tron, the meta around me is kind of full of it and my sideboard now has 2 GQ for them. I flirted with the idea of running blood moon or fulminator mage, both I'm still considering but the biggest issue I have with them is that we are a 18-19 land deck that runs a very greedy mana base, hitting 3 mana on turn three can't always be counted on and in the match ups where we need blood moon/fulm. mage the most (tron and bloom) if we stumble on our land drops we're dead. Anyway, that's my reasoning for GQ right now. I also have been bringing in surgical extraction and actively thought scouring my opponents and extraction the first titan/tron piece that I see. Surgical extraction does say "nonbasic land" which is a little bit of text I did not realize until recently.
Burn still sucks, I haven't liked vampiric link or dragon's claw but I dislike dragon's claw less. Spellsnare, negate, and dispel do more for us in those match ups anyway.
Basically? Its too painful. We take alot from lands already, and adding another 3 damage to the mix will usually result in a L for us as we cant even guarantee that we can do anything with those cards for another turn. You could try it in the SB as a 1-of, but no more than that is really feasible
Primers
4C Walkers