I think running two copies of Watery Grave (and Steam Vents) is largely a concession to Thought Scour. Milling yourself out of setting up your manabase can absolutely cripple your ability to play spells when you need them.
I'd say this is definitely the main reason. A secondary reason comes down to the type of sideboard you're running - in my traditional Grixis Delver list I had both Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and Liliana, the Last Hope in the sideboard and they're very black mana heavy.
Double-B casting costs - even in the side-board - definitely indicate additional, fetch-able B-sources. With such costs, it's desirable to have a second Swamp to fetch but I don't think one can afford that in Grixis Delver.
Double-B casting costs - even in the side-board - definitely indicate additional, fetch-able B-sources. With such costs, it's desirable to have a second Swamp to fetch but I don't think one can afford that in Grixis Delver.
Grixis Delver can most definitely afford additional fetchable swamps especially if you are running more Fatal Push and/or if it is a meta call, as was the case with my sideboard.
I've been playing a couple of variants of Grixis Shadow and I seem to have better success with the list that uses Delver of Secrets instead of Street Wraiths. Ya I lose some consistency with the deck but I feel like I lack the extra threat Delver serves. Hand hate is really good in the current meta so I'm running the following list with good success:
First of, nice article!
I've been wondering why you left out spirits as they are a really good and fun to play tempo deck in my opinion.
On your Grixis Delver list, do you think that 2 copies of Ceremonious Rejection are really worth it? I would rather play one additional Thoughtseize/Countersquall to fight Tron as there's always that one game against Eldrazi where an opposing Cavern makes all of our counters obsolet so i try to board them out completely. However, i can see it beeing good against Eldrazi Tron and of course straight Tron too.
The second card i don't really like is Electrolyze. I mean it always comes down to your local meta but it just feels soooo slow against most of the field. Would rather run some additional Pushes/Terminates.
Looking forward reading more of your articles though!
Ceremonious Rejection is also good against Lantern Control, Affinity, and Eldrazi. Yes Cavern sucks when they get it but CR is too good against the Eldrazi deck if they don't draw into it.
Thanks for the kind words! I'm glad you like the article.
I left Spirits out because I had already discussed them in another article. Didn't want to double-dip. I also think its meta share is still a bit on the low side at the moment, though for the life of me I can't figure out why. It seems like it's in the same power level ballpark as the D&T/Grixis Delver/Merfolk trio.
I'm unsure of whether 2 copies of Rejection will be enough to patch the Eldrazi/Tron matchups, but I didn't want to be totally cold to those decks, and it's an answer that fits elegantly in a sideboard and has the potential to address them nicely. The thing that drew me to them over the likes of the 3rd Countersquall or Thoughtseize was the great synergy with Snapcaster Mage. I freely admit that they may not end up being as good as I think they can be, though.
As for Electrolyze... I'm mostly trying to address Lingering Souls and Affinity. As I mentioned in the article, one of the major draws to Delver is how comprehensively it crushes Affinity, and I intended to reinforce that as much as possible. I also want as much face burn as I can pack in the maindeck to have reach against Death's Shadow. It's been pretty good to me in testing.
As for Electrolyze... I'm mostly trying to address Lingering Souls and Affinity. As I mentioned in the article, one of the major draws to Delver is how comprehensively it crushes Affinity, and I intended to reinforce that as much as possible. I also want as much face burn as I can pack in the maindeck to have reach against Death's Shadow. It's been pretty good to me in testing.
I play two Electrolyze too. It does seem slow in a couple of matchups, but overall, the card is great against midrange/control, which I see a ton lately on Cockatrice, especially Abzan.
I've been playing a couple of variants of Grixis Shadow and I seem to have better success with the list that uses Delver of Secrets instead of Street Wraiths. Ya I lose some consistency with the deck but I feel like I lack the extra threat Delver serves. Hand hate is really good in the current meta so I'm running the following list with good success:
I guess we'll keep talking about it here until someone wants to make a primer.
I like it, I tried Rise//Fall but I decided to go for the forth bolt. Most lists are running 2-3 bolts because Push is that good, but Snap Bolt Snap is still viable, and it makes starting hands with multiple snapcasters as your only threat not feel as bad. I wish I had some room for an extra terminate in the main but I don't think I could go with only one K Command. How is it working for you?
I'm still tempted to do something awful and have Street Wraiths in the side to swap out with Delvers. I'm pretty sure it's an awful idea but Wraith just makes your shadows that much better when you're playing against a deck that doesn't do fast amounts of damage to you.
Liliana has recently been a powerful sideboard option, but I think moving her to the main is the way to go. I've replaced Young Pyromancer with her and her abilities are all incredibly useful for us. Her plus takes care of public enemy number one for Grixis (Lingering Souls) and deals with smaller creatures, so we can save our removal for more important threats. Her minus helps us grind out other midrangey decks and stock up the graveyard for snapcaster and our delve threats. If we can protect the queen long enough, her ultimate is an auto win against a lot of decks. I would love to hear your thoughts on my list and Lily in the main.
According to this Grixis Shadow as a seperate entity is tier 2. I think this furthers the argument that it warrants its own thread.
In addition Grixis Delver is climbing as a tier 2 deck. It's a great time to be a Grixis player.
I guess we'll keep talking about it here until someone wants to make a primer.
I like it, I tried Rise//Fall but I decided to go for the forth bolt. Most lists are running 2-3 bolts because Push is that good, but Snap Bolt Snap is still viable, and it makes starting hands with multiple snapcasters as your only threat not feel as bad. I wish I had some room for an extra terminate in the main but I don't think I could go with only one K Command. How is it working for you?
I'm still tempted to do something awful and have Street Wraiths in the side to swap out with Delvers. I'm pretty sure it's an awful idea but Wraith just makes your shadows that much better when you're playing against a deck that doesn't do fast amounts of damage to you.
Street Wraith feels bad in Grixis Shadow. Played 3-4 competitions with it and didn't have as much success as I am having with the Delver of Secrets. I really like the additional threat in Delver of Secrets as well as trying to bait out removal early game to protect my Shadows in the mid to later game. As for mainboard, I moved one Lightning Bolt to the sideboard and mainboarded the additional Kolaghan's Command. Seems like the appropriate call for my local meta. Went 3-1 last night as was close to going 4-0. Hand hate plus Death's Shadow feels better than Young Pyromancer plus counter magic.
I was wondering how do you feel about the Grixis Delver with Death's Shadow with discard vs Young Pyromancer with Counterspells? What are the pros and cons of one and the other? Would one play each version differently?
The purpose of Death's Shadow, in general, is to give midrange decks some help with against their weaker matchups, big mana decks (Tron, Valakut, etc.). That is why people are maining Street Wraith so that they can get a Shadow down by turn 2 and start putting a clock on their opponent. Street Wraiths work well against most decks expect the ones that are trying to burn you out. I personally don't see Tron at my local meta so I don't need to try and threaten them with a turn 2 Death's Shadow. I also felt between the fetches and the Thoughtseizes that it wasn't hard to get my life low anyways so the Street Wraiths are a bit redundant since Grixis has access to Serum Visions, Thought Scour, and Kolaghan's Command to help dig/recur some of the answers you need.
For me personally and at my local meta, having the extra threats in Delver of Secrets is better for my deck than losing life, cycling at instant speed, and the little bit of consistency you get with card replacement in Street Wraith. Street Wraith would probably be the better option if you are going to a big event without knowing what you opponent is playing. For my meta that sees little to no Tron decks, Delver of Secrets is the way to go. On top of that, I have yet to lose against RG Scapeshift with Delver in the main so I'll continue on with what I am doing.
Liliana has recently been a powerful sideboard option, but I think moving her to the main is the way to go. I've replaced Young Pyromancer with her and her abilities are all incredibly useful for us. Her plus takes care of public enemy number one for Grixis (Lingering Souls) and deals with smaller creatures, so we can save our removal for more important threats. Her minus helps us grind out other midrangey decks and stock up the graveyard for snapcaster and our delve threats. If we can protect the queen long enough, her ultimate is an auto win against a lot of decks. I would love to hear your thoughts on my list and Lily in the main.
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
👏👏👏👏👏
Great deck, and let me just say that I'm super happy to see that more people are realizing how badass Liliana, the Last Hope is in a Grixis Delver shell. My one small critique is I'm really not a fan of the basic mountain in Delver lists - I'd instead try a second Darkslick Shores. Other than that, very cool list. Let us know how it does!
Thank you for your feedback. I wasn't really asking about Street Wraith. I meant going with Death's Shadow (without Street Wraith which I don't find necessary in a Delver list) versus the more typical route of Young Pyromancer.
The way I see the Delver with DS lists is a Delver deck that plays a Death's Shadow as another resilient finisher with a real clock.
I think if you put DS in a Delver list it would be better to bring a suite of hand hate cards as opposed to a counter spell suite. DS rewards you for life loss which is why Thoughtseize is so strong in the DS shells.
As long as we're talking about Death's Shadow and Delver of Secrets playing together, I'll bring up another variation. I tried Grixis Shadow with and without Delver and just couldn't get it to click. But last week I started testing out an Esper list with Delver and Shadow, which has felt a lot better to me. As for how this pertains to Grixis, here are some observations.
The version that feels smoothest has been one with 4 Street Wraith and a full 4/4 discard suite, plus a little permission (around 2-4 counters total with a few more SB, in some configuration of Coutnersquall and Stubborn Denial). Despite running 3-4 Delve creatures and 3 Snapcasters, I've scrapped Thought Scour altogether for a number of reasons. It's a tempo-negative play in a deck that has a lot going on in the 1-drop slot already (26 CMC-1 cards, or 22 not counting Shadow itself); Street Wraith and discard and 12 fetches fill your graveyard plenty fast even without Bauble; with tons of discard and less permission, committing a turn-2 Delve creature is less important (you're not strictly on the commit-then-disrupt plan since you can frontload the disruption); with Delver and Shadow in the 1-drop slot, you can usually apply pressure even without a super-early Delve creature; finally (and very importantly) the optimal manabase for Shadow is ~6 mana-producing lands and no more than one of any, which means milling one off of Scour can cripple your manabase.
Again, this is a different deck, but I think the shells have enough similarities that it's worth bringing up for consideration and discussion at least.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Liliana has recently been a powerful sideboard option, but I think moving her to the main is the way to go. I've replaced Young Pyromancer with her and her abilities are all incredibly useful for us. Her plus takes care of public enemy number one for Grixis (Lingering Souls) and deals with smaller creatures, so we can save our removal for more important threats. Her minus helps us grind out other midrangey decks and stock up the graveyard for snapcaster and our delve threats. If we can protect the queen long enough, her ultimate is an auto win against a lot of decks. I would love to hear your thoughts on my list and Lily in the main.
I've been considering adding Liliana, the Last Hope to my deck, either as a sideboard option or a potential mainboard threat. Has using Liliana been good in the deck? I've been itching to play Grixis Delver lately after playing Dredge lately and the idea of using Liliana, the Last Hope is very tempting.
I haven't really tested other than on Xmage, but I think the Delvers are the way to go. Street Wraiths enabling us to pump the DS and cycle through our deck is nice, but I often felt fairly threat-light in the "traditional" Grixis Delver list. I don't always find it that easy to delve for Tasigur or Angler if my hand doesn't line up correctly and getting it removed right away feels like such a tempo loss. I'll be testing out the DS + Delver version with some Liliana's mained when they get in. I think the +1 is helpful for casting our big threats and the -2 for recurring our DS or Delvers seems great in testing.
I've been considering adding Liliana, the Last Hope to my deck, either as a sideboard option or a potential mainboard threat. Has using Liliana been good in the deck? I've been itching to play Grixis Delver lately after playing Dredge lately and the idea of using Liliana, the Last Hope is very tempting.
Liliana is very good in this deck. I said this earlier in the thread:
[Liliana grants all the following:]removal vs tokens and Lingering Souls with her +1 (Thought-knot Seer in particular becomes a 2/3 and thus killable by a Lightning Bolt), recurring threats and enhancing delve with her -2, and let's not forget that Gurmag Angler is a Zombie for her -7.
In short, she strengthens all avenues of the Delver game plan and helps break midrange matches by providing serious value.
Hm... I hadn't considered that. Might need to make some room for her in my list. BB is more achievable than ever in my current manabase, so it might be worth a try.
Hm... I hadn't considered that. Might need to make some room for her in my list. BB is more achievable than ever in my current manabase, so it might be worth a try.
Word, she essentially takes the place of the Electrolyze in the list you posted last page. 😋 I think you'll like her!
She definitely sideboards in cleanly for Lyze in matchups where I don't want the latter, that's for sure. If Ceremonious Rejection doesn't pan out or ends up not being needed, I have a replacement at the ready. I may also try to make room for her in some other ways as well.
Double-B casting costs - even in the side-board - definitely indicate additional, fetch-able B-sources. With such costs, it's desirable to have a second Swamp to fetch but I don't think one can afford that in Grixis Delver.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Grixis Delver can most definitely afford additional fetchable swamps especially if you are running more Fatal Push and/or if it is a meta call, as was the case with my sideboard.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death's Shadow
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
Instants (15)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thought Scour
2 Stubborn Denial
3 Fatal Push
1 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Serum Visions
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Land (19)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Fatal Push
1 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Collective Brutality
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Crumble to Dust
This deck has run very well for me.
Ceremonious Rejection is also good against Lantern Control, Affinity, and Eldrazi. Yes Cavern sucks when they get it but CR is too good against the Eldrazi deck if they don't draw into it.
I left Spirits out because I had already discussed them in another article. Didn't want to double-dip. I also think its meta share is still a bit on the low side at the moment, though for the life of me I can't figure out why. It seems like it's in the same power level ballpark as the D&T/Grixis Delver/Merfolk trio.
I'm unsure of whether 2 copies of Rejection will be enough to patch the Eldrazi/Tron matchups, but I didn't want to be totally cold to those decks, and it's an answer that fits elegantly in a sideboard and has the potential to address them nicely. The thing that drew me to them over the likes of the 3rd Countersquall or Thoughtseize was the great synergy with Snapcaster Mage. I freely admit that they may not end up being as good as I think they can be, though.
As for Electrolyze... I'm mostly trying to address Lingering Souls and Affinity. As I mentioned in the article, one of the major draws to Delver is how comprehensively it crushes Affinity, and I intended to reinforce that as much as possible. I also want as much face burn as I can pack in the maindeck to have reach against Death's Shadow. It's been pretty good to me in testing.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I play two Electrolyze too. It does seem slow in a couple of matchups, but overall, the card is great against midrange/control, which I see a ton lately on Cockatrice, especially Abzan.
I guess we'll keep talking about it here until someone wants to make a primer.
I like it, I tried Rise//Fall but I decided to go for the forth bolt. Most lists are running 2-3 bolts because Push is that good, but Snap Bolt Snap is still viable, and it makes starting hands with multiple snapcasters as your only threat not feel as bad. I wish I had some room for an extra terminate in the main but I don't think I could go with only one K Command. How is it working for you?
I'm still tempted to do something awful and have Street Wraiths in the side to swap out with Delvers. I'm pretty sure it's an awful idea but Wraith just makes your shadows that much better when you're playing against a deck that doesn't do fast amounts of damage to you.
1x Blood Crypt
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Darkslick Shores
2x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Spirebluff Canal
2x Steam Vents
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Creatures(12)
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Gurmag Angler
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
Spells(26)
4x Fatal Push
2x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Mana Leak
3x Spell Snare
2x Terminate
4x Thought Scour
4x Serum Visions
2x Collective Brutality
2x Countersquall
2x Dispel
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Izzet Staticaster
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
Liliana has recently been a powerful sideboard option, but I think moving her to the main is the way to go. I've replaced Young Pyromancer with her and her abilities are all incredibly useful for us. Her plus takes care of public enemy number one for Grixis (Lingering Souls) and deals with smaller creatures, so we can save our removal for more important threats. Her minus helps us grind out other midrangey decks and stock up the graveyard for snapcaster and our delve threats. If we can protect the queen long enough, her ultimate is an auto win against a lot of decks. I would love to hear your thoughts on my list and Lily in the main.
According to this Grixis Shadow as a seperate entity is tier 2. I think this furthers the argument that it warrants its own thread.
In addition Grixis Delver is climbing as a tier 2 deck. It's a great time to be a Grixis player.
Street Wraith feels bad in Grixis Shadow. Played 3-4 competitions with it and didn't have as much success as I am having with the Delver of Secrets. I really like the additional threat in Delver of Secrets as well as trying to bait out removal early game to protect my Shadows in the mid to later game. As for mainboard, I moved one Lightning Bolt to the sideboard and mainboarded the additional Kolaghan's Command. Seems like the appropriate call for my local meta. Went 3-1 last night as was close to going 4-0. Hand hate plus Death's Shadow feels better than Young Pyromancer plus counter magic.
The purpose of Death's Shadow, in general, is to give midrange decks some help with against their weaker matchups, big mana decks (Tron, Valakut, etc.). That is why people are maining Street Wraith so that they can get a Shadow down by turn 2 and start putting a clock on their opponent. Street Wraiths work well against most decks expect the ones that are trying to burn you out. I personally don't see Tron at my local meta so I don't need to try and threaten them with a turn 2 Death's Shadow. I also felt between the fetches and the Thoughtseizes that it wasn't hard to get my life low anyways so the Street Wraiths are a bit redundant since Grixis has access to Serum Visions, Thought Scour, and Kolaghan's Command to help dig/recur some of the answers you need.
For me personally and at my local meta, having the extra threats in Delver of Secrets is better for my deck than losing life, cycling at instant speed, and the little bit of consistency you get with card replacement in Street Wraith. Street Wraith would probably be the better option if you are going to a big event without knowing what you opponent is playing. For my meta that sees little to no Tron decks, Delver of Secrets is the way to go. On top of that, I have yet to lose against RG Scapeshift with Delver in the main so I'll continue on with what I am doing.
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
👏👏👏👏👏
Great deck, and let me just say that I'm super happy to see that more people are realizing how badass Liliana, the Last Hope is in a Grixis Delver shell. My one small critique is I'm really not a fan of the basic mountain in Delver lists - I'd instead try a second Darkslick Shores. Other than that, very cool list. Let us know how it does!
I think if you put DS in a Delver list it would be better to bring a suite of hand hate cards as opposed to a counter spell suite. DS rewards you for life loss which is why Thoughtseize is so strong in the DS shells.
The version that feels smoothest has been one with 4 Street Wraith and a full 4/4 discard suite, plus a little permission (around 2-4 counters total with a few more SB, in some configuration of Coutnersquall and Stubborn Denial). Despite running 3-4 Delve creatures and 3 Snapcasters, I've scrapped Thought Scour altogether for a number of reasons. It's a tempo-negative play in a deck that has a lot going on in the 1-drop slot already (26 CMC-1 cards, or 22 not counting Shadow itself); Street Wraith and discard and 12 fetches fill your graveyard plenty fast even without Bauble; with tons of discard and less permission, committing a turn-2 Delve creature is less important (you're not strictly on the commit-then-disrupt plan since you can frontload the disruption); with Delver and Shadow in the 1-drop slot, you can usually apply pressure even without a super-early Delve creature; finally (and very importantly) the optimal manabase for Shadow is ~6 mana-producing lands and no more than one of any, which means milling one off of Scour can cripple your manabase.
Again, this is a different deck, but I think the shells have enough similarities that it's worth bringing up for consideration and discussion at least.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
I've been considering adding Liliana, the Last Hope to my deck, either as a sideboard option or a potential mainboard threat. Has using Liliana been good in the deck? I've been itching to play Grixis Delver lately after playing Dredge lately and the idea of using Liliana, the Last Hope is very tempting.
UBR Grixis Shadow
URG Amulet Titan
Liliana is very good in this deck. I said this earlier in the thread:
In short, she strengthens all avenues of the Delver game plan and helps break midrange matches by providing serious value.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Word, she essentially takes the place of the Electrolyze in the list you posted last page. 😋 I think you'll like her!
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers: