By the average time you can actually cast Crumble, it's way past being relevant. Being a sorcery speed 4 drop in a deck that MIGHT hit 4 lands by turn 5 or 6 sounds awful.
Edit: after watching, I like many of the other changes he has made, especially P&K in the board. I still greatly disagree with Crumble, but maybe I'll try it out again...
Try it! Maybe it's because I'm running 21 lands.. I have a Tron infested meta, so I've definitely tried molten rain, f mage, shadow of doubt and ceremonious rejection. I currently run 2 crumble and 2 Fulminator, because Kolaghan's, return f mage, snap kolaghan, return fmage is still like T_T for them lol.
So my local meta is filled with variations of jeskai control decks and I've found the match up to be about 50/50 but I was wondering on some of your opinions on possible sideboard cards I could be running to help the matchup?
Hahaha Kevin Jones's match up was heartbreaking!! Great though.
I also like his list a lot, my only major disagreement is that I think dismember is just not good. It should either be a push or a terminate, and I think push is the better option.
What do you guys think about him going back down to 19 lands? I do agree that sometimes I get flooded a lot.
I tried to tackle it by making my 20th land be Creeping Tar Pit. Then if I flood, I can at least crash in for 3 unblockable. I'm not committed to it, but it has been OK so far.
I like the crumble idea. Most of the Tron that I've seen online has been Eldrazi tron which is a bit slower than traditional Gx Tron, so Crumble seems like it would often be fine against it. Granted, I haven't tested it much and I've been eschewing it based on what is "accepted practice" rather than what I think. Edit: I've had the hardest time against Valakut decks. In these ones Crumble seems much better.
As far as Kevin Jones' match against Grixis Control, I usually keep my delvers in against them and try not to win the control battle since they can out card advantage me with Ancestral Visions and usually draw into more counters. Is this completely wrong? Do most people side out delver?
I think it really depends on your 75. You can try to keep low, but your delvers might just eat a bolt. You can also remove delvers and try to blank their pushes and bolts for g2.
As far as Kevin Jones' match against Grixis Control, I usually keep my delvers in against them and try not to win the control battle since they can out card advantage me with Ancestral Visions and usually draw into more counters. Is this completely wrong? Do most people side out delver?
Depends on your sideboard really. I take Delvers out against grindy decks like Jund/Jeskai/Grixis Control.
Against Grixis Control, I'm currently trying:
-4 Delver of Secret
-2 Fatal Push
-1 Thought Scour
+3 Countersquall/Negate
+1 Desolate Lighthouse
+1 Painful Truth
+2 Dispel
Regarding F.Mage vs Crumble debate, I've found that mage is better for me. Against decks like Tron we want to present our threat T1/T2 and than tempoing our opponent. Imo Mage coming down a turn earlier and obvious synergy with K Command is more optimal, especially as a lot of Tron variants sometimes bring in Warping Wall.
Don't you want Molten Rain over Fulminator then since you'rejust firing them off as soon as you play them?
Went 3-0-1 today. Split 1st with my cryptic delver list.
Round 1 vs Goryo 2-1
He let a delver stick.
Round 2 vs sultai control 2-0
Ancestral out of the board grinds through 3 Liliana.
Round 3 vs infect 2-0
RIP probe.
Round 4 vs mono w hate bears/taxes. ID
Thank God we drew koz he had a lot of blade splicers and restos >.<
Solid day overall. Went back to 3 Cryptic.
I went 3-1 last Thursday at my weekly modern with a list very similar to yours with the tar pits and 3 cryptics. It might have just been the night, but the deck ran almost flawlessly.
Round 1, affinity. 0-2.
Etched champion is a difficult card to deal with when you don't own any EE.
Round 2, Sun & Moon. 2-1
Played the slow, control game. Countering the untimely blood moons and kommanding his chalices.
Round 3, Jund. 2-0
Sided out delvers and went for the control late game. Crashing in with tar pits won me both games.
Round 4, B/W eldrazi & taxes. 2-0
Again, delvers came out and I went for the control build. Won game one on the backs of turn 2 and turn 3 flipped delvers. They won me the game in game 1, but I figured if I lost game 2, I could side them back in. Game 2 was won with a turn 2 Tasigur he couldn't path through my counters.
Overall I loved how the deck felt. Cryptic was an all star as well as the two countersqualls. The 2 damage from them is relevant.
Thanks again 9tailz for the help.
Regarding F.Mage vs Crumble debate, I've found that mage is better for me. Against decks like Tron we want to present our threat T1/T2 and than tempoing our opponent. Imo Mage coming down a turn earlier and obvious synergy with K Command is more optimal, especially as a lot of Tron variants sometimes bring in Warping Wall.
Don't you want Molten Rain over Fulminator then since you'rejust firing them off as soon as you play them?
F. Mage has more application because it's better against P.Time/Shift decks and 2/2 body can be relevant sometime.
imo you want stone rain style card in delver and FMage in the straight control, both kind of suck against Titainshift and that is the match up you want to BM as its just not very good against tron.
5 rounds tournament at my LGS yesterday. Went 2-2-1 losing against Tron and against a 4 colors homebrew deck playing random cards + removal + gifts ungiven(I was feeling really ashamed for loosing against it but I went mana flood G1 and mana screw G2),
Four-color Gifts is an archetype of long-standing.
5 rounds tournament at my LGS yesterday. Went 2-2-1 losing against Tron and against a 4 colors homebrew deck playing random cards + removal + gifts ungiven(I was feeling really ashamed for loosing against it but I went mana flood G1 and mana screw G2),
Four-color Gifts is an archetype of long-standing.
it was not THAT 4 color gifts, it was a 4 colors decks with Gifts and a lot of random card, the guy confirmed me it was its own brew. I have to admit I have never seen in modern some of that cards
As someone replied to me in the 4C Gifts forum;
"@pzbw7z, Gifts is pretty much 4 Gifts Ungiven and 71 flex slots, so if it is something you want to run (especially at FNM for fun) then I say go for it."
There's next to no standardization as there are no pro decks for groupies to mimic. Some kind of reanimator package is almost universal, but beyond that, it's pretty much anything goes.
Not that any of that really matters, but Gifts Ungiven is a awesome card - a card doesn't get banned from Commander for nothing - and it can just beat you if you durndle.
Went 3-0-1 today. Split 1st with my cryptic delver list.
Round 1 vs Goryo 2-1
He let a delver stick.
Round 2 vs sultai control 2-0
Ancestral out of the board grinds through 3 Liliana.
Round 3 vs infect 2-0
RIP probe.
Round 4 vs mono w hate bears/taxes. ID
Thank God we drew koz he had a lot of blade splicers and restos >.<
Solid day overall. Went back to 3 Cryptic.
I went 3-1 last Thursday at my weekly modern with a list very similar to yours with the tar pits and 3 cryptics. It might have just been the night, but the deck ran almost flawlessly.
Round 1, affinity. 0-2.
Etched champion is a difficult card to deal with when you don't own any EE.
Round 2, Sun & Moon. 2-1
Played the slow, control game. Countering the untimely blood moons and kommanding his chalices.
Round 3, Jund. 2-0
Sided out delvers and went for the control late game. Crashing in with tar pits won me both games.
Round 4, B/W eldrazi & taxes. 2-0
Again, delvers came out and I went for the control build. Won game one on the backs of turn 2 and turn 3 flipped delvers. They won me the game in game 1, but I figured if I lost game 2, I could side them back in. Game 2 was won with a turn 2 Tasigur he couldn't path through my counters.
Overall I loved how the deck felt. Cryptic was an all star as well as the two countersqualls. The 2 damage from them is relevant.
Thanks again 9tailz for the help.
I'm glad the deck is working for you! How many lands, creatures and spells are you running? From my previous post, I think I said I was running 21 lands.. I bumped it up to 22, and dropped a tasigur. I'm at 22 lands, 12 creatures and 26 ways to still flip delver. My mb counterspell package is now 3 cryptic, 2 leak, 1 squall and 2 snare. That's about it for changes from my side. I'm also tempted to bump up to 3 kommand...
Regarding F.Mage/Surgical vs Crumble vs Molten Rain/Surgical, I had the chance to play Crumble to Dust against Scapeshift yesterday, won me game 2. The card's ability is great for sure, but it was extremely slow. I mulled to 5 on the draw with kept a 3 lander with Crumble and another card that I forgot. It was on turn 6 that I was able to cast it, I was very lucky.
If it was against Tron, I probably would've lost the game. I still don't which card to play. The thing I don't like with F.Mage/Rain + Surgical is that I need two cards to "kill" them, while Crumble is one expensive card that "kills" immediately.
I don't think we are ever going to have a perfect answer to Tron. I'm on fulminator mage just because it can get in for damage fore a few turns and it will delay them a bit. We aren't winning games against Tron where we dont have a turn one or two threat anyways so when we do have that the turn or two fulminator delays them is pretty relevant.
Went 3-0-1 today. Split 1st with my cryptic delver list.
Round 1 vs Goryo 2-1
He let a delver stick.
Round 2 vs sultai control 2-0
Ancestral out of the board grinds through 3 Liliana.
Round 3 vs infect 2-0
RIP probe.
Round 4 vs mono w hate bears/taxes. ID
Thank God we drew koz he had a lot of blade splicers and restos >.<
Solid day overall. Went back to 3 Cryptic.
I went 3-1 last Thursday at my weekly modern with a list very similar to yours with the tar pits and 3 cryptics. It might have just been the night, but the deck ran almost flawlessly.
Round 1, affinity. 0-2.
Etched champion is a difficult card to deal with when you don't own any EE.
Round 2, Sun & Moon. 2-1
Played the slow, control game. Countering the untimely blood moons and kommanding his chalices.
Round 3, Jund. 2-0
Sided out delvers and went for the control late game. Crashing in with tar pits won me both games.
Round 4, B/W eldrazi & taxes. 2-0
Again, delvers came out and I went for the control build. Won game one on the backs of turn 2 and turn 3 flipped delvers. They won me the game in game 1, but I figured if I lost game 2, I could side them back in. Game 2 was won with a turn 2 Tasigur he couldn't path through my counters.
Overall I loved how the deck felt. Cryptic was an all star as well as the two countersqualls. The 2 damage from them is relevant.
Thanks again 9tailz for the help.
I'm glad the deck is working for you! How many lands, creatures and spells are you running? From my previous post, I think I said I was running 21 lands.. I bumped it up to 22, and dropped a tasigur. I'm at 22 lands, 12 creatures and 26 ways to still flip delver. My mb counterspell package is now 3 cryptic, 2 leak, 1 squall and 2 snare. That's about it for changes from my side. I'm also tempted to bump up to 3 kommand...
I'm at 21 lands, 2 of which are Creeping Tar Pit.
13 creatures, 3 Tas, 1 angler and 1 v clique.
26 instants and sorceries. 3 cryptics, 2 kommand, 2 fatal push and 2 terminate. I do not like murderous cut in this deck. I feel it taxes the delve and graveyard too much.
1 countersquall, 2 snare, 1 remand and 1 leak.
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Blue mage through and through... i know, i know, I'm hated.
I began recording another Modern Competitive League with Grixis Delver. I got through 2 games with commentary, but finished the league without recording the rest due to having some computer issues. Will get them fixed soon so that I can create more content for you guys. Ended up going 4-1 with the list below:
2-1 Grishoalbrand
I stole a pretty close Game 1 off the back of 2 Delvers and a bunch of Bolts on T4. Collective Brutality was very clutch in G1. Game 2 I was able to draw 2 Surgical Extraction but they went off using Through the Breach. Game 3 was close as well, but I was very well insulated with T1 Delver into Dispel and Surgical Extraction backup.
2-1 Naya Bushwacker
Game 1 was close, but Spell Snare was pretty key here. Game 2 went down to the grind and I flooded into a loss. Game 3 the opponent was on 2 lands the whole game and I was able to take advantage with an early Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Mana Leak.
1-2 Bant Eldrazi
G1 I drew the wrong half of the deck and punted a Spell Snare into a Cavern of Souls naming Horror for Spellskite. Got Reality Smasher'd shortly after. Game 2 I was able to remove their Noble Hierarch, follow up with a T2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang and T3 Fulminator Mage and that was back-breaking enough for the opponent. Game 3 was grindy, but I did not draw the right half of the deck. Fatal Push felt pretty bad against Thought-Knot Seer without any fetches. Mana Leak felt pretty bad against Cavern of Souls. Overall Grixis PyroDelver has the tools to beat Bant Eldrazi, but its pretty draw dependent.
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Check out some Magic Gameplay and Commentary videos here, including Modern Grixis, Jeskai, and Esper videos as well as some Standard and Drafts too: My YouTube Channel!
Damnation is tough with jusr twenty lands; Junk or Junk run twenty-four usually. Three-mana solutions might be better, especially if you envision them working under Blood Moon. Anger of the Gods is good enough for most go-wide strategies and better than Damnation in may cases due to the exile effect.
Try it! Maybe it's because I'm running 21 lands.. I have a Tron infested meta, so I've definitely tried molten rain, f mage, shadow of doubt and ceremonious rejection. I currently run 2 crumble and 2 Fulminator, because Kolaghan's, return f mage, snap kolaghan, return fmage is still like T_T for them lol.
I also like his list a lot, my only major disagreement is that I think dismember is just not good. It should either be a push or a terminate, and I think push is the better option.
I tried to tackle it by making my 20th land be Creeping Tar Pit. Then if I flood, I can at least crash in for 3 unblockable. I'm not committed to it, but it has been OK so far.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
As far as Kevin Jones' match against Grixis Control, I usually keep my delvers in against them and try not to win the control battle since they can out card advantage me with Ancestral Visions and usually draw into more counters. Is this completely wrong? Do most people side out delver?
Modern: Bogles // 8-Whack/Goblins // UW Titan // Hollow One // Affinity // Dredge
EDH: Nissa, Vastwood Seer // Atraxa, Praetor's Voice // Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Depends on your sideboard really. I take Delvers out against grindy decks like Jund/Jeskai/Grixis Control.
Against Grixis Control, I'm currently trying:
-4 Delver of Secret
-2 Fatal Push
-1 Thought Scour
+3 Countersquall/Negate
+1 Desolate Lighthouse
+1 Painful Truth
+2 Dispel
Don't you want Molten Rain over Fulminator then since you'rejust firing them off as soon as you play them?
URBURB
Round 1 vs Goryo 2-1
He let a delver stick.
Round 2 vs sultai control 2-0
Ancestral out of the board grinds through 3 Liliana.
Round 3 vs infect 2-0
RIP probe.
Round 4 vs mono w hate bears/taxes. ID
Thank God we drew koz he had a lot of blade splicers and restos >.<
Solid day overall. Went back to 3 Cryptic.
I went 3-1 last Thursday at my weekly modern with a list very similar to yours with the tar pits and 3 cryptics. It might have just been the night, but the deck ran almost flawlessly.
Round 1, affinity. 0-2.
Etched champion is a difficult card to deal with when you don't own any EE.
Round 2, Sun & Moon. 2-1
Played the slow, control game. Countering the untimely blood moons and kommanding his chalices.
Round 3, Jund. 2-0
Sided out delvers and went for the control late game. Crashing in with tar pits won me both games.
Round 4, B/W eldrazi & taxes. 2-0
Again, delvers came out and I went for the control build. Won game one on the backs of turn 2 and turn 3 flipped delvers. They won me the game in game 1, but I figured if I lost game 2, I could side them back in. Game 2 was won with a turn 2 Tasigur he couldn't path through my counters.
Overall I loved how the deck felt. Cryptic was an all star as well as the two countersqualls. The 2 damage from them is relevant.
Thanks again 9tailz for the help.
imo you want stone rain style card in delver and FMage in the straight control, both kind of suck against Titainshift and that is the match up you want to BM as its just not very good against tron.
Four-color Gifts is an archetype of long-standing.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
As someone replied to me in the 4C Gifts forum;
"@pzbw7z, Gifts is pretty much 4 Gifts Ungiven and 71 flex slots, so if it is something you want to run (especially at FNM for fun) then I say go for it."
There's next to no standardization as there are no pro decks for groupies to mimic. Some kind of reanimator package is almost universal, but beyond that, it's pretty much anything goes.
Not that any of that really matters, but Gifts Ungiven is a awesome card - a card doesn't get banned from Commander for nothing - and it can just beat you if you durndle.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I'm glad the deck is working for you! How many lands, creatures and spells are you running? From my previous post, I think I said I was running 21 lands.. I bumped it up to 22, and dropped a tasigur. I'm at 22 lands, 12 creatures and 26 ways to still flip delver. My mb counterspell package is now 3 cryptic, 2 leak, 1 squall and 2 snare. That's about it for changes from my side. I'm also tempted to bump up to 3 kommand...
If it was against Tron, I probably would've lost the game. I still don't which card to play. The thing I don't like with F.Mage/Rain + Surgical is that I need two cards to "kill" them, while Crumble is one expensive card that "kills" immediately.
I'm at 21 lands, 2 of which are Creeping Tar Pit.
13 creatures, 3 Tas, 1 angler and 1 v clique.
26 instants and sorceries. 3 cryptics, 2 kommand, 2 fatal push and 2 terminate. I do not like murderous cut in this deck. I feel it taxes the delve and graveyard too much.
1 countersquall, 2 snare, 1 remand and 1 leak.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
2 Young Pyromancer
Instants/Sorceries (27):
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
2 Mana Leak
1 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Electrolyze
1 Collective Brutality
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Darkslick Shores
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Dispel
1 Countersquall
1 Collective Brutality
1 Engineered Explosives
2-0 Naya Zoo
Beat Naya (Little) Zoo, pretty easy matchup. I imagine the matchup would be more difficult if they played more x/4's like Loxodon Smiter, Knight of the Reliquary, or even Scavenging Ooze but the combination of Fatal Push and Lightning Bolt shut down their entire offense.
2-1 Grishoalbrand
I stole a pretty close Game 1 off the back of 2 Delvers and a bunch of Bolts on T4. Collective Brutality was very clutch in G1. Game 2 I was able to draw 2 Surgical Extraction but they went off using Through the Breach. Game 3 was close as well, but I was very well insulated with T1 Delver into Dispel and Surgical Extraction backup.
2-1 Naya Bushwacker
Game 1 was close, but Spell Snare was pretty key here. Game 2 went down to the grind and I flooded into a loss. Game 3 the opponent was on 2 lands the whole game and I was able to take advantage with an early Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Mana Leak.
2-0 GB Elves
Games were not even close. G1 Collective Brutality took out their Elvish Archdruid and sniped a Collected Company from their hand. Young Pyromancer closed the game out shortly after. G2 followed similarly, with lots of removal, Collective Brutality, and a Gurmag Angler to pressure the opponent until we drew Izzet Staticaster which was basically lights out.
1-2 Bant Eldrazi
G1 I drew the wrong half of the deck and punted a Spell Snare into a Cavern of Souls naming Horror for Spellskite. Got Reality Smasher'd shortly after. Game 2 I was able to remove their Noble Hierarch, follow up with a T2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang and T3 Fulminator Mage and that was back-breaking enough for the opponent. Game 3 was grindy, but I did not draw the right half of the deck. Fatal Push felt pretty bad against Thought-Knot Seer without any fetches. Mana Leak felt pretty bad against Cavern of Souls. Overall Grixis PyroDelver has the tools to beat Bant Eldrazi, but its pretty draw dependent.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn