Curious about the general consensus on Jones vs. Overturf builds post-ban and AER? Expanding a little further, these builds vs. straight Control? I figure people have gotten some time to test and I'm wondering what the move going forward looks like.
Also, what's a typical ratio of counters / removal / cantrips, etc. in this deck? Need to find room for Push and possibly Remand in my list and don't wanna screw anything up.
GB Tron (2-0), Jeskai Control (2-0), Grixis Delver (2-1), EldraziTron(2-0), Amulet Titan (2-0). Deck was running hot yesterday, just finished a league with 2-3 :/
What am i doing wrong i keep losing to any kind of tron/eldrazi
Those are really bad matchups that require either several dedicated sideboard slots or lots of variance luck to reliably win. There's not a whole lot Delver can do against these decks other than cross your fingers and hope for the best.
round 1 vs u/w control win
round 2 vs burn win
round 3 vs u/w control loss elspeth both games
round 4 vs affinity loss resolved etched champ
round 5 vs burn win
I played with a streamlined 19 land pyro build for more comparison.
Every game I played, I would've rather have been on my cryptic delver build.
After playing grixis control for a short while, and then going back to 19 land pyro,
I realize that my cryptic delver build is really really strong. Creeping tar pit is so good at pushing those last points.
What am i doing wrong i keep losing to any kind of tron/eldrazi
Also yeah, with my 21 land build I run 2 crumble and 2 fulminator, because my meta is infested with big mana decks. Clock them with a snap bolt if you have to. It gets better post sb. Luckily there is a ponza player among us
Also blood moon is a thing if you wanna go that way. It keeps tron from ramp, and it makes eldrazi hard to cast if they never see a wastes.
9tailz, have you got the deck list for your cryptic delver build? I'm interested in a build like that. I currently run an Overturf style, but would like to lean closer to a classic control build... Even though Overturf's is more controlling.
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Blue mage through and through... i know, i know, I'm hated.
What am i doing wrong i keep losing to any kind of tron/eldrazi
I almost never beat GB Tron, as I said deck was running hot. Eldrazi tho, seems a very easy matchup, they do nothing early game so we have time to develop our board and sculpt our hand, and when they start to do things we almost always can answer them. They have inevibitability but the game usually never lasts that long. Also dismember sucks against our burn plan.
Those are really bad matchups that require either several dedicated sideboard slots or lots of variance luck to reliably win. There's not a whole lot Delver can do against these decks other than cross your fingers and hope for the best.
I don't know about Bant Eldrazi since it's non-existant online, but EldraziTron is a very easy matchup as I said.
Bant Eldrazi is bad because just about everything they play par for par is better and more powerful than what we are doing, many of our kill spells do not effectively deal with their threats; all of which 2-for-1 us, and they run Cavern of Souls. They are favored in the long game and have ridiculous tools to dig for answers/threats/lands/etc. Tron Tron (GR/GW/GB) is really bad because many of their threats are incredibly difficult to deal with or fight through. We think that Karn, Ugin, and Ulamog are the problem, but it's even difficult to win through even a simple Wurmcoil Engine. Eldrazi Tron isn't as much of a problem because it feels less explosive than Bant Eldrazi and has a less threatening top-end compared to regular Tron. It's like the worst aspects of each deck smashed together.
yes, alskar, that was pretty insightful. thanks for sharing! i played grixis delver in the side events of gp prague and my finishes were net positive but mediocre. but i wasnt playing modern for like 4 months. anyway, i found that terminate is still superior to fatal push (killing primeval titan before combat, hence evading two more triggers is very helpful, killing tasigur in the grixis and esper control matchups etc.). i played push in the board and brought it in to lower my curve in fast creature matchups.
i play something even closer to the overturf list with 4 differences main - 1 ofs of:
clique main, which i loved, same as you
1/1 split between electrolyze and kommand, which was helpful againt eldrazi and junk, same as you
1 spell pierce which was EXTREMELY helpful as no opponent saw that coming.
so i play the full set of snares and leaks over your 2 pushes main, a watery grave over a darkslcik shores, the full set of terminates over your pyromancer and the pierce over the second kommand.
my board is a bit different though:
- no land hate, which i didnt need all 17 matches over the weekend, but why do you play molten rain over fulminator? everybody keeps telling me the mage is superior, i have no opinion yet.
- second Kommand instead of your vandalblast (minor difference)
- fatal push instead of your anger of the gods
- engineered explosives (many good applications for that one)
all in all, we are on quite the same list. deck feels good, but hard to pilot. i strongly advise to try out spell pierce main instead of the second kommand and the second watery grave over darkslick shores, to avoid your only UB shock being thought scoured away!
About the terminate/fatal push. I think terminate is a bit better for our deck, but not by much. Since we have bolts, we have the 1 CMC removal comered. But there's a lot of matchups where having 2 more 1 CMC removals is very good. I was playing 4 mana leaks since 2 days ago, swapped one for another removal since it seems better on the meta i'm seeing online.
About the molten rain/fulminator, don't take my word too serious since I haven't played with fulminator mage in this deck. But I think Molten Rain is a better fit for our deck, reasons being those:
1. We need a critical mass of instant/sorceries for the delver flips. When you want land destruction, often you want also to be fast (against tron or eldrazi), so it's really important that our Delvers can flip consistently.
2. Molten Rain does 2 damage the turn you play it, while fulminator has to attack. Against Tron, you are likely to blow the fulminator the turn you play it, so you are losing 2 damage that can really determine the win.
3. I did snapcaster-molten rain some times those days and their opponent will hardly recover from that. You can rebuy Fulminator with Kholaghans but is more rare(since you have less kholagans)
Fulminator is better against decks like affinity or URx to blow manlands, since you can have it on board until you want to blow the land. However, even if I had fulminators on my board I won't board them in against those decks since we have better cards against them.
About the pierce, I will try it. I played it in this deck on paper when I first started playing it like 2 years ago. It could be good. I don't think I need a second watery grave tho, I'm very pleased when I draw darkslick shores / spirebluff canal since our manabase is painful. The situation you mentioned is not very common in my experience(yeah, it happens and it sucks, but I think the manabase is fine).
Terminate seems better than Fatal Push over all but Snapcaster Mage seems to demand access to Push. It's just that Push seems so bad in the side-board. For Infect or Affinity I'd rather bring in Darkblast. What else is so fast I'd want to bring in Push out of the 'board and what is so bad in my 'board that I'd want to replace it with a very much non-silver bullet?
That question is rhetorical; my side-board is probably a mess anyway.
Is anybody else tired of them linking full-art cards? I can never remember the sets and it's just a pain to have to specify them anyway. Linking full-art cards is just so incredibly dumb.
9tailz, have you got the deck list for your cryptic delver build? I'm interested in a build like that. I currently run an Overturf style, but would like to lean closer to a classic control build... Even though Overturf's is more controlling.
SB is tuned for my lgs. Biggest differences are 3 ancestral for grinds and crumble + fulminator for big mana hate. Also no surgicals. I'm unsure about hard removal package. I was running 2/2 terminate push, but there are plenty of spots where 1 mana hard removal is clutch. Taxes GY a bit more though.
*note Delver still has 26 ways to flip.
When do you guys bring in Surgical Extraction ? Do you guys bring them in against Grixis Control or the mirror? I know some folks at my LGS likes to bring them in. I personally think that it's just a win-more card in the mirror, I might be wrong.
Thanks for the reply, Tailz.
I like the look of that list. I might have to give it a shot. I have yet to try any cryptics MB yet and haven't found a way to work AV into the SB.
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Blue mage through and through... i know, i know, I'm hated.
When do you guys bring in Surgical Extraction ? Do you guys bring them in against Grixis Control or the mirror? I know some folks at my LGS likes to bring them in. I personally think that it's just a win-more card in the mirror, I might be wrong.
I don't like Extraction just to shut off Snapcaster and slightly weaken Delve creatures. I love it vs. fragile combo decks (although they often have ways of turning off you counterspells and discard, so be careful with this) and things like Tron where they only run a couple of win conditions. And of course vs. Tron you can extract a Tron land once you blow them up.
Obviously it comes in vs. Dredge (usually hitting Prized Amalgam first, then Bloodghast) and anything else that relies heavily on its graveyard. But just turning off incidental value IMO isn't worth cutting other cards for unless you have extra slots once you've boarded out.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
I think that if you're reaching for high-cost spells like Cryptic Command, you might as well be running Grixis Control. Cryptic is a great spell, but a 20-land manabase isn't well-suited to slamming it down on curve, cantrips or not.
The thing is, AV and delver are great in their own respective match ups. Do I want AV vs tron? Maybe, but i'd rather t1 delver. Do I want delver vs jund? meh, i'd rather t1 AV. 21 lands is just fine. I have no consistency issues getting 3U or casting it. My mana base is closer to Corey's mana base. My build plays on the strengths of being mid range, with more oomph in the later stages. No dead mana leaks, delver flips just as consistent with a KJ build, creeping tar pit is an absolute star at pushing those last points. Cryptic is a swiss army knife, allowing me to race in a lot of situations, and bounce troublesome permanents if need be. I'm no pro, but I do play a lot of grixis and this is the result I came up with between playing corey control, and KJ/overturf delver that works for me. Delver becomes a supplement to the game plan, allowing some "free" wins gained just by playing a t1 delver.
I recently played a game vs another Grixis Delver list that was essentially Corey Burkhart's control list except it had -4 Ancestral Visions and +4 Delver. I managed to win but it was really cool to play against and it felt very powerful. Only reason I won was because of some opponent's misplays.
I have to say, I really liked the Creeping Tar Pit. One of the things that's great about Grixis Delver is each threat you play is a must-answer card. If I do add back in a 20th land, that will definitely be it.
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Also, what's a typical ratio of counters / removal / cantrips, etc. in this deck? Need to find room for Push and possibly Remand in my list and don't wanna screw anything up.
GB Tron (2-0), Jeskai Control (2-0), Grixis Delver (2-1), EldraziTron(2-0), Amulet Titan (2-0). Deck was running hot yesterday, just finished a league with 2-3 :/
RBGW Suicide Zoo
Legacy
RUG Canadian Threshold
Those are really bad matchups that require either several dedicated sideboard slots or lots of variance luck to reliably win. There's not a whole lot Delver can do against these decks other than cross your fingers and hope for the best.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
round 1 vs u/w control win
round 2 vs burn win
round 3 vs u/w control loss elspeth both games
round 4 vs affinity loss resolved etched champ
round 5 vs burn win
I played with a streamlined 19 land pyro build for more comparison.
Every game I played, I would've rather have been on my cryptic delver build.
After playing grixis control for a short while, and then going back to 19 land pyro,
I realize that my cryptic delver build is really really strong. Creeping tar pit is so good at pushing those last points.
Also yeah, with my 21 land build I run 2 crumble and 2 fulminator, because my meta is infested with big mana decks. Clock them with a snap bolt if you have to. It gets better post sb. Luckily there is a ponza player among us
Also blood moon is a thing if you wanna go that way. It keeps tron from ramp, and it makes eldrazi hard to cast if they never see a wastes.
I almost never beat GB Tron, as I said deck was running hot. Eldrazi tho, seems a very easy matchup, they do nothing early game so we have time to develop our board and sculpt our hand, and when they start to do things we almost always can answer them. They have inevibitability but the game usually never lasts that long. Also dismember sucks against our burn plan.
I don't know about Bant Eldrazi since it's non-existant online, but EldraziTron is a very easy matchup as I said.
RBGW Suicide Zoo
Legacy
RUG Canadian Threshold
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
About the terminate/fatal push. I think terminate is a bit better for our deck, but not by much. Since we have bolts, we have the 1 CMC removal comered. But there's a lot of matchups where having 2 more 1 CMC removals is very good. I was playing 4 mana leaks since 2 days ago, swapped one for another removal since it seems better on the meta i'm seeing online.
About the molten rain/fulminator, don't take my word too serious since I haven't played with fulminator mage in this deck. But I think Molten Rain is a better fit for our deck, reasons being those:
1. We need a critical mass of instant/sorceries for the delver flips. When you want land destruction, often you want also to be fast (against tron or eldrazi), so it's really important that our Delvers can flip consistently.
2. Molten Rain does 2 damage the turn you play it, while fulminator has to attack. Against Tron, you are likely to blow the fulminator the turn you play it, so you are losing 2 damage that can really determine the win.
3. I did snapcaster-molten rain some times those days and their opponent will hardly recover from that. You can rebuy Fulminator with Kholaghans but is more rare(since you have less kholagans)
Fulminator is better against decks like affinity or URx to blow manlands, since you can have it on board until you want to blow the land. However, even if I had fulminators on my board I won't board them in against those decks since we have better cards against them.
About the pierce, I will try it. I played it in this deck on paper when I first started playing it like 2 years ago. It could be good. I don't think I need a second watery grave tho, I'm very pleased when I draw darkslick shores / spirebluff canal since our manabase is painful. The situation you mentioned is not very common in my experience(yeah, it happens and it sucks, but I think the manabase is fine).
RBGW Suicide Zoo
Legacy
RUG Canadian Threshold
That question is rhetorical; my side-board is probably a mess anyway.
Is anybody else tired of them linking full-art cards? I can never remember the sets and it's just a pain to have to specify them anyway. Linking full-art cards is just so incredibly dumb.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Vendilion Clique
Instants 22
3 Cryptic Command
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Countersquall
1 Remand
2 Fatal Push
1 Terminate
1 Murderous Cut
2 Spell Snare
4 Thought Scour
4 Serum Visions
Lands 21
1 Blood Crypt
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Watery Grave
SB is tuned for my lgs. Biggest differences are 3 ancestral for grinds and crumble + fulminator for big mana hate. Also no surgicals. I'm unsure about hard removal package. I was running 2/2 terminate push, but there are plenty of spots where 1 mana hard removal is clutch. Taxes GY a bit more though.
*note Delver still has 26 ways to flip.
Counters and try to surgical them out
I like the look of that list. I might have to give it a shot. I have yet to try any cryptics MB yet and haven't found a way to work AV into the SB.
I don't like Extraction just to shut off Snapcaster and slightly weaken Delve creatures. I love it vs. fragile combo decks (although they often have ways of turning off you counterspells and discard, so be careful with this) and things like Tron where they only run a couple of win conditions. And of course vs. Tron you can extract a Tron land once you blow them up.
Obviously it comes in vs. Dredge (usually hitting Prized Amalgam first, then Bloodghast) and anything else that relies heavily on its graveyard. But just turning off incidental value IMO isn't worth cutting other cards for unless you have extra slots once you've boarded out.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I have to say, I really liked the Creeping Tar Pit. One of the things that's great about Grixis Delver is each threat you play is a must-answer card. If I do add back in a 20th land, that will definitely be it.