Finally, this is a winnable matchup, but remember to increase your luck stat next time you level up. Otherwise your delvers will never flip, your cliques will always give them more karns, and they'll always have natural turn 3 tron. Work hard and give them a fight every time, but just accept that sometimes you'll roll low in your luck roll and there's nothing else to do.
Isn't this the truth. Had a Tron player last week who mulled to four, got turn three Tron, then after I esper charmed the last two card in his hand which were both karn, immediately topdecked a third karn to win the game anyways.
Regarding Tron, turn-two YP sounds like a good idea game-one but not necessarily post-board; one should be able to counter Pyroclasm before playing YP, or at least it seems that way to me. Maybe one has to risk it, dunno. I don't play YP anyway so I'm not going to over-think it.
Ceremonious Rejection might be worth a side-board slot for FNM if there are regular Tron players. Bounce spells would work too and I find one handy for other reasons; I run one Echoing Truth main-deck.
[quote from="pzbw7z »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/tier-2-modern/631246-grixis-delver?comment=3040"]Regarding Tron, turn-two YP sounds like a good idea game-one but not necessarily post-board; one should be able to counter Pyroclasm before playing YP, or at least it seems that way to me. Maybe one has to risk it, dunno. I don't play YP anyway so I'm not going to over-think it.
It's one of those things that depends on your draw. Do you have a delver out already, are they on the gr version, are they close to Tron, can you tasigur instead? I think err towards slamming it, to make them have an answer in hand, but it all depends on the game (as does everything with grixis delver)
4 Fatal Push and 2 MD counters - Mana Leak is a pretty aggressive suite in favor of removal. No Countersquall is interesting too, maybe black is taxed too much.
It hits all their rocks too. My issue with Ceremonious Rejection is that it buys you time but doesn't solve the problem, so if your opponent has already assembled Tron it's slightly better than Countersquall or Mana Leak. You get that one turn and then your opponent untaps and casts another threat you can't deal with. I want to try it on my SB because it's good hate vs Affinity and Eldrazi too, but I want to have it as an addition to other Tron hate as I don't think Rejection itself is enough to win that match.
Regarding the banning of probe, what do you think about replacing it with some number of faithless looting? Granted, faithless looting is card disadvantage (even if you count the potential flashback utility), but so is, for example, black lotus. Faithless looting effectively functions as a lotus (given that we want to play a delve creature) and it furthermore helps in finding this delve creature (and if we draw to many of the latter we can simply loot them away).
The card disadvantage argument is surely strong, but a turn 2 tasigur backed up by spell snare held up is sometimes close to GG. In match ups where the -1 card lotus effect is bad we can simply board them out for ancestral visions or what have you. It is possible that sleight of hand is a better replacement for probe, but I think it is worthwhile to at least test faithless looting (say 1 or 2) alongside a higher number of delve creatures (say 3 tasigurs, 2-3 anglers). Any thoughts?
I tried it. Flashy turn 2 Tasigur, but not consistent. So I ditched it.
Personally I'd rather have Izzet Charm as a loot effect. I guess the extra speed could be relevant, but Charm feels more consistent if you're not trying to rush a turn 2 tas. The Sorcery speed is a bit of a downside too, and the other 2 effects on charm are fairly relevant against the entire field.
The Columbus list has some pretty severe problems with it. Four push is fun, but you concede game 1 to Eldrazi when you don't have to. 2 is probably correct, 3 if you're in an especially aggressive, low cmc local meta, but not putting at least 2 Terminate in the main board is incorrect. I'd also be very uncomfortable not playing a real selection of countermagic. I've been running 3 Snare, 2 Leak, 1 Deprive (to test out as an additional Push enabler) and it's been pretty good. I've also been thinking of a 1 of Ceremonious Rejection, but I think I'd rather have artifact hate. With a Moon based SB plan, cards like Shattering Spree become better against Tron, and you can Molten Rain rather than Stone Rain. I'm still building a SB for SCG Regionals in Baltimore, but here's the base list:
2-1 Ramp Scapeshift - A Titan/Scapeshift deck designed to go off as early as turn 3, different from traditional builds of either Scapeshift or RG Titan. Game 1, lost to resolved Scapeshift. Game 2 Blood Moon is a card. Game 3 fast clock and timely Countersquall got there.
0-2 Ad Nauseam - Game 1 I lose with my opponent at 0 life with 11 power on the board and an Unlife in play. He scrys something to the top, I attempt to Thought Scour him and in response I get combod. Game 2 I lost after a turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity and Night of Souls' Betrayal. Even after resolving a Tasigur and Angler, I die to combo with Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Snare, Collective Brutality in hand.
2-0 U/B Tezz Thopter - Game 1 won by good early pressure and timely K Command. Game 2 won by good early pressure and Surgical Extraction. Remand was great against a Dismember on Tasigur. He had to take 2 to cast it first time, then to advance his board, he only left 1 mana up and paid 4 life the second time.
2-0 GW Tron - I had no business winning this match, but I'll take it. Game 1 he mulls down to 5 and is stuck on Ghost Quarter and a resolved Map for 4 or 5 turns before scooping. Delver and YP providing pressure. Game 2 turn 2, I play a Young Pyromancer and then Surgical Extraction his Ancient Stirrings for a token (I do not run LD in this build and using Surgical purely for value). He had nothing in hand and no way to dig. He eventually sphered and starred to Tron, but I had been chipping away the whole time, and had a timely Countersquall + Snap/Surgical for Karn. Eventually drew and played Blood Moon. Was able to eventually attack and bolt-snap-bolt for win.
Initially, I was kind of sad that I only had 2 Fatal Push's (others in the mail), but I actually took them out literally every game tonight... May actually change my use of the card going forward. As others have concluded, 4 Push may not be all that great. 2 in the main feels good, and if needed, we could bring another 2 from the board. But all in all, Push was basically dead all night last night.
I'm still experimenting with my list and not sure what I want to do with it going forward. Remand was awful in countering Scaprshift and Night of Soul's Betreyal, but amazing at digging me towards Blood Moon and Bolt/Snap in Tron and was good at buying time in Tezz. I like drawing a card and hate how Mana Leak becomes completely dead as the game goes on. I think YP is still amazing and wouldn't cut it for anything. I'm iffy on Spell Snare.. it's great when its live and unbelievably bad when it's not. Tried Brutality again... still not overwhelmed with this card. It feels more like a placeholder than something I'm always excited to draw. Don't know how I feel about Tar Pit either. It attacked once and never hindered me by coming in tapped. Not sure what I want to do for 20th land... this or Desolate Lighthouse. I like Loothouse for late game, but it also doesn't cast any of my cards. I swapped out a Canal for a Darkslick Shores and like that so far. Feel like I'm rambling by this point. Still not thrilled with the deck and still feel like it favors luck and draws way too much in many matchups, but at least being on the good side of luck feels nice.
Nice results. I'm starting to like Remand in this deck. I've played a few games this past week where it was badass, especially with Remand - Snap Remand.
Vs Tron I think it's all about trying to delay or hinder them so, Ceremonious Rejection, Blood Moon and Remand are where it's at (as long as it's not Ulamog you're remanding!). Vs Tron you are actually playing a tempo game where you try to offset them as much as possible.
Also, I've been trying out Caleb Durward's list and I think he has a good idea of what's happening. Only 19 lands, but he also plays Remands and 2 Sleight of Hand.
so against tron ive heard that young pyromancer is the way to go. I really like having 14 mb creatures, with 4 delver, 4 snap, 4 delve guys and a 1/1 split on peezy and clique. In game 2, what are the odds of tron bringing in relic of progenitus to hate on snap and delve? if this is the case, could we play another pyro in the sideboard and swap gurmag angler out for it to rely less on the graveyard and have a faster clock simulatneously? i realize they are also bringing in pyroclasm if they see the young pyro in game 1, but i think maybe its still worth it. thoughts?
Nice results. I'm starting to like Remand in this deck. I've played a few games this past week where it was badass, especially with Remand - Snap Remand.
Since my background is in Twin, Remand has been my best friend for a long time. I love the card, I love the tempo advantage, and I have a really hard time giving it up, especially with all the weaknesses that Leak has in the late game. Plus, having foil original Ravnica copies doesn't help me wanting to cut it either.
Vs Tron I think it's all about trying to delay or hinder them so, Ceremonious Rejection, Blood Moon and Remand are where it's at (as long as it's not Ulamog you're remanding!). Vs Tron you are actually playing a tempo game where you try to offset them as much as possible.
In game 2, what are the odds of tron bringing in relic of progenitus to hate on snap and delve? if this is the case, could we play another pyro in the sideboard and swap gurmag angler out for it to rely less on the graveyard and have a faster clock simulatneously? i realize they are also bringing in pyroclasm if they see the young pyro in game 1, but i think maybe its still worth it. thoughts?
Tron is bad for us. Really, really bad. Without an early Blood Moon backed by a quick clock, we're just delaying an inevitable loss. GW Tron has Path and Rest in Peace. GR Tron has Pyroclasm. Both have big fatties that wreck us and are difficult to deal with. We need to kill them as quickly as possible while trying to not die to their big fatties. We need to be the aggro role as much as possible because eventually we just lose if we don't bring their life down (they play no fetches and don't really deal any damage to themselves). If they still have life, they can O stone, Ulamog, Ugin, whatever. I was lucky I killed my Tron opponent when I did because Ugin was on top of his library as his next draw with enough lands to hard cast through a Blood Moon. I'm sure specifics will vary from deck to deck depending on main/side boards, but the #1 goal against Tron would be kill them as fast as possible and have disruption secondary. We're not a control deck and we will not win a long game against Tron.
Young pyromancer is our worst creature against tron. You really can't beat tron without turn 1 delver/ turn 2 delve fattie or having very good luck. I still don't understand that some people like blood moon in our deck. The manabase is just not built to support it. Molten rain/Fulminator mage also doesn't seem a good solution and I'm right now I'm playing crumble in the sideboard(not enough results yet), but it seems very slow on the draw. I just think we have no reliable way to beat tron, even post-board. I think we just have to play the tempo game, hoping to draw a lot of leaks / countersqualls and finish them fast.
What about the Ghost Quarter / Surgical Extraction plan to slow Tron down? I know you need to devote multiple sideboard spots to accommodate it but it's the fastest way to get them off of Tron. Also, I am just a huge fan of Surgical Extraction in general for combo and control disruption.
4 Molten Rain + 2-3 Surgical is very strong vs Tron.`The extra damage is relevant from Molten Rain, it flips your delvers in the matchup, and you can snapcast them back to keep them off of hardcasting their wurmcoils and karns. It's been a pretty easy matchup for me since I started running 4 Molten Rains in the SB. Blood Moon is probably better vs the field though.
Molten Rain + Surgical Extraction is a lot of sideboard slots, but Extraction is great vs. combo and graveyard decks, and even Molten is useful vs other decks like Scapeshift and sometimes Eldrazi (hitting Temple or keeping them off of Cavern so your counters stay live).
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Young pyromancer is our worst creature against tron. You really can't beat tron without turn 1 delver/ turn 2 delve fattie or having very good luck. I still don't understand that some people like blood moon in our deck. The manabase is just not built to support it. Molten rain/Fulminator mage also doesn't seem a good solution and I'm right now I'm playing crumble in the sideboard(not enough results yet), but it seems very slow on the draw. I just think we have no reliable way to beat tron, even post-board. I think we just have to play the tempo game, hoping to draw a lot of leaks / countersqualls and finish them fast.
Hello, here's my reasoning for things.
Peezy is the worst of our anti tron creatures, true, but I still think it's right to include him. We only have 8 delver + delve guys and while we do need to mulligan to threats, we can't afford too many potential mulligans just to dig for a delver, so I like having a few extra threats around as extra pressure (and itsee better than snapcaster as an early threat lol). An extra gurmaug is possible, but he's already risky in this matchup as they run relics, and too many v cliques can be also be a problem. (For reference, my current creature count is 4 delvers, 4 snapcasters, 3 tasigur, 1 gurmaug, and 1 clique.)
I like blood moon because it works best with that tempo plan youve described, and that tempo plan is how to win. We can't really hate out tron without committing a huge amount of the sideboard, but BM gives us a 2-of slot that works with the plan of threats and hold up counterspells (and is also good against bant eldrazi and annoying for scapeshift). We're not a deck really built for BM, true, but we have a lot of fetches, and we usually only need two islands and 1 swamp under a BM to operate a near full capacity. It's just more awkward for them than it is for us.
Ive been using counterbore lately and am very pleased, as for tron,spreading seas is my card of choice recently,I MB two since I am commandless and have two sb.
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Isn't this the truth. Had a Tron player last week who mulled to four, got turn three Tron, then after I esper charmed the last two card in his hand which were both karn, immediately topdecked a third karn to win the game anyways.
******* tilted.
Ceremonious Rejection might be worth a side-board slot for FNM if there are regular Tron players. Bounce spells would work too and I find one handy for other reasons; I run one Echoing Truth main-deck.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
It's one of those things that depends on your draw. Do you have a delver out already, are they on the gr version, are they close to Tron, can you tasigur instead? I think err towards slamming it, to make them have an answer in hand, but it all depends on the game (as does everything with grixis delver)
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=111054
Looking at this list, this is how I'd personally update my own version:
4 Delver of secrets
4 snapcaster mage
3 Tasigur, the golden fang
1 Gurmag Angler
2 Young Pyromancer
Lands (19)
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Blood Crypt
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Spirebluff Canal
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Electrolyze
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fatal Push
3 Mana Leak
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
2 Dreadbore
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Countersquall
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Dispel
1 Spell Pierce
2 Terminate
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Molten Rain
2 Thoughtseize
1 Painful Truths
I'm doing my best to gain percentages on the Tron matchup while keeping our infect, affinity and jund matchups slightly favorable or better.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
It hits all their rocks too. My issue with Ceremonious Rejection is that it buys you time but doesn't solve the problem, so if your opponent has already assembled Tron it's slightly better than Countersquall or Mana Leak. You get that one turn and then your opponent untaps and casts another threat you can't deal with. I want to try it on my SB because it's good hate vs Affinity and Eldrazi too, but I want to have it as an addition to other Tron hate as I don't think Rejection itself is enough to win that match.
URBURB
I tried it. Flashy turn 2 Tasigur, but not consistent. So I ditched it.
URBURB
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
Instants: 21
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thought Scour
3 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
1 Deprive
4 Serum Visions
2 Forked Bolt
1 Dreadbore
1 Collective Brutality
Lands: 18
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
2 Island
2 Swamp
2-1 Ramp Scapeshift - A Titan/Scapeshift deck designed to go off as early as turn 3, different from traditional builds of either Scapeshift or RG Titan. Game 1, lost to resolved Scapeshift. Game 2 Blood Moon is a card. Game 3 fast clock and timely Countersquall got there.
0-2 Ad Nauseam - Game 1 I lose with my opponent at 0 life with 11 power on the board and an Unlife in play. He scrys something to the top, I attempt to Thought Scour him and in response I get combod. Game 2 I lost after a turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity and Night of Souls' Betrayal. Even after resolving a Tasigur and Angler, I die to combo with Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Snare, Collective Brutality in hand.
2-0 U/B Tezz Thopter - Game 1 won by good early pressure and timely K Command. Game 2 won by good early pressure and Surgical Extraction. Remand was great against a Dismember on Tasigur. He had to take 2 to cast it first time, then to advance his board, he only left 1 mana up and paid 4 life the second time.
2-0 GW Tron - I had no business winning this match, but I'll take it. Game 1 he mulls down to 5 and is stuck on Ghost Quarter and a resolved Map for 4 or 5 turns before scooping. Delver and YP providing pressure. Game 2 turn 2, I play a Young Pyromancer and then Surgical Extraction his Ancient Stirrings for a token (I do not run LD in this build and using Surgical purely for value). He had nothing in hand and no way to dig. He eventually sphered and starred to Tron, but I had been chipping away the whole time, and had a timely Countersquall + Snap/Surgical for Karn. Eventually drew and played Blood Moon. Was able to eventually attack and bolt-snap-bolt for win.
Initially, I was kind of sad that I only had 2 Fatal Push's (others in the mail), but I actually took them out literally every game tonight... May actually change my use of the card going forward. As others have concluded, 4 Push may not be all that great. 2 in the main feels good, and if needed, we could bring another 2 from the board. But all in all, Push was basically dead all night last night.
I'm still experimenting with my list and not sure what I want to do with it going forward. Remand was awful in countering Scaprshift and Night of Soul's Betreyal, but amazing at digging me towards Blood Moon and Bolt/Snap in Tron and was good at buying time in Tezz. I like drawing a card and hate how Mana Leak becomes completely dead as the game goes on. I think YP is still amazing and wouldn't cut it for anything. I'm iffy on Spell Snare.. it's great when its live and unbelievably bad when it's not. Tried Brutality again... still not overwhelmed with this card. It feels more like a placeholder than something I'm always excited to draw. Don't know how I feel about Tar Pit either. It attacked once and never hindered me by coming in tapped. Not sure what I want to do for 20th land... this or Desolate Lighthouse. I like Loothouse for late game, but it also doesn't cast any of my cards. I swapped out a Canal for a Darkslick Shores and like that so far. Feel like I'm rambling by this point. Still not thrilled with the deck and still feel like it favors luck and draws way too much in many matchups, but at least being on the good side of luck feels nice.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Gurmag Angler
Sorcery
4 Serum Visions
1 Collective Brutality
Instant
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thought Scour
3 Remand
2 Spell Snare
2 Fatal Push
3 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Spirebluff Canal
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Countersquall
2 Dispel
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Vs Tron I think it's all about trying to delay or hinder them so, Ceremonious Rejection, Blood Moon and Remand are where it's at (as long as it's not Ulamog you're remanding!). Vs Tron you are actually playing a tempo game where you try to offset them as much as possible.
Also, I've been trying out Caleb Durward's list and I think he has a good idea of what's happening. Only 19 lands, but he also plays Remands and 2 Sleight of Hand.
Tron is bad for us. Really, really bad. Without an early Blood Moon backed by a quick clock, we're just delaying an inevitable loss. GW Tron has Path and Rest in Peace. GR Tron has Pyroclasm. Both have big fatties that wreck us and are difficult to deal with. We need to kill them as quickly as possible while trying to not die to their big fatties. We need to be the aggro role as much as possible because eventually we just lose if we don't bring their life down (they play no fetches and don't really deal any damage to themselves). If they still have life, they can O stone, Ulamog, Ugin, whatever. I was lucky I killed my Tron opponent when I did because Ugin was on top of his library as his next draw with enough lands to hard cast through a Blood Moon. I'm sure specifics will vary from deck to deck depending on main/side boards, but the #1 goal against Tron would be kill them as fast as possible and have disruption secondary. We're not a control deck and we will not win a long game against Tron.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
RBGW Suicide Zoo
Legacy
RUG Canadian Threshold
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Hello, here's my reasoning for things.
Peezy is the worst of our anti tron creatures, true, but I still think it's right to include him. We only have 8 delver + delve guys and while we do need to mulligan to threats, we can't afford too many potential mulligans just to dig for a delver, so I like having a few extra threats around as extra pressure (and itsee better than snapcaster as an early threat lol). An extra gurmaug is possible, but he's already risky in this matchup as they run relics, and too many v cliques can be also be a problem. (For reference, my current creature count is 4 delvers, 4 snapcasters, 3 tasigur, 1 gurmaug, and 1 clique.)
I like blood moon because it works best with that tempo plan youve described, and that tempo plan is how to win. We can't really hate out tron without committing a huge amount of the sideboard, but BM gives us a 2-of slot that works with the plan of threats and hold up counterspells (and is also good against bant eldrazi and annoying for scapeshift). We're not a deck really built for BM, true, but we have a lot of fetches, and we usually only need two islands and 1 swamp under a BM to operate a near full capacity. It's just more awkward for them than it is for us.