Been working on my own too. Different build and missing a few foils though. Plus, with the Git Probe ban, I need to rework it, but this is more or less what I ran beforehand. Foils missing: 4x Scalding Tarn (waiting for reprints), Bloodstained Mire (was in and out of the deck, didn't want to commit), 1x Spell Snare (ran 1 for a long time, recently added second, only had 1 foil), and then some expensive sideboard cards like Blood Moon, AV, and EE. I would get foil Countersqualls, but I LOVE LOVE LOVE the Duel Deck art so much more than the original. And the DD version doesn't come in foil.
I've been off of pyro for a little bit, but that's because i'm currently running 21 lands, 2 tar pits and 3 cryptics.
Pyro is still great in the deck, as long as you're taking a more proactive approach when you consider card choices.
Also to update my cryptic testing.. went 4-0 and 3-1 in the last 2 lgs events. Deck feels much more midrangey, and hitting 3 U is easy.
Cryptic has so much versatility, I don't see myself cutting it anytime soon.
Tar pit continues to over perform for me!
I've been off of pyro for a little bit, but that's because i'm currently running 21 lands, 2 tar pits and 3 cryptics.
Pyro is still great in the deck, as long as you're taking a more proactive approach when you consider card choices.
Also to update my cryptic testing.. went 4-0 and 3-1 in the last 2 lgs events. Deck feels much more midrangey, and hitting 3 U is easy.
Cryptic has so much versatility, I don't see myself cutting it anytime soon.
Tar pit continues to over perform for me!
Will probably do a 2/2 split of terminate and push. I wanted more burn for reach, but I also wanted more cantrips. I "combined" collective brutality and remand and threw in the electrolyze. That slot is the most flexible right now though. The deck is much more grindy, which I felt was a strong point of grixis delver in the first place. Especially for being a delver deck. The play style is a lot like the control variant, but with the ability to push opponents into bolt snap bolt, swing tarpit range off a t2 flip delver. It's great so far, but i've only had so many games with this variant. TBH, tar pit and cryptic are over performing for me.
edit: After debating with myself today, I switched electrolyze for a clique.
Been working on my own too. Different build and missing a few foils though. Plus, with the Git Probe ban, I need to rework it, but this is more or less what I ran beforehand. Foils missing: 4x Scalding Tarn (waiting for reprints), Bloodstained Mire (was in and out of the deck, didn't want to commit), 1x Spell Snare (ran 1 for a long time, recently added second, only had 1 foil), and then some expensive sideboard cards like Blood Moon, AV, and EE. I would get foil Countersqualls, but I LOVE LOVE LOVE the Duel Deck art so much more than the original. And the DD version doesn't come in foil.
Yay for foil deck threads! I'm just missing 2 Brutalities myself and whatever amount of Fatal Pushes we end up running. $30 bucks a piece seems a bit ridiculous right now though, so I'll wait until those settle down a bit.
Hey all I posted above but didn't seem to get a response. What do you all think about the effectiveness of spell snare going forward? Push now deals with two drop creatures and if push becomes widely popular, snare does nothing against it. Will spell pierce become important to protect delver etc? I see people adding even more push now with the probe ban with many lists running 3. I've played delver for a couple months now and I've had it sit as a dead card in my hand many games. I'm going to start recording situations where Spell Pierce would be better. I'm also going to MB a countersquall with the open spots left from probe and YP.
I think that Snare is still alive for the most part. For me it was there for general turn 2 plays more than the 2 cmc creatures. So while now snaring an Eidolon or a Goyf isn't as relevant it's still good for Leaks, Terminates, Blazes Atarka commands, charms, skullcracks, Sylvan Scryings, half of affinity, etc.
I'm not sure you'd still want 4 of them like Owenturf does, but it still answers a lot of spells that we don't ever want to see resolved so I keep 2 on my list.
Personally I'm staying on 2 Snare on both Delver and Control as well. It's live vs. too much of the field, and hitting so many prime removal, counters, and creatures is too good to pass up.
One thing to remember with Snapcaster lists is that situational 1-ofs and 2-ofs are great (especially in conjunction with Thought Scour). It minimizes your risk of drawing too many of the wrong answer when you don't want it, while giving more options and the possibility of multiple casts via Snaps.
On that note, I've actually started upping my Deprive count in Delver from 1 to 2 in the 75. The first few times I tried it, it felt horrible since I wanted to hit something turn 2 but didn't want the tempo loss. However, with Fatal Push making immediate counterspells a little less necessary (and of course with Leak and Snare backing it up), I've found I almost never find myself thinking "I wish this were any other counter/removal right now," and I very often end up thanking my stars that it's not a Countersquall or a Mana Leak. Since we play on a lean curve, I've found I usually don't mind the land bounce too much (vs. in Control, where it makes me want to smash my face in with a brick). And since we're not an all-out aggro deck, I very often find my opponent able to pay through Remand or Mana Leak to stick a game-winning spell.
Just make sure you fetch a basic Island so you don't have to keep Shocking yourself.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
- How many threats and how often and early in the game you want to be drawing them
- If you're ok playing a passive early-game more often than not, 12-13 threats usually does the trick. So you don't have much room for threat diversification, since you're probably running 4delver, 4-5 delve fatties, 4snappies, maybe add 1 clique or something else with utility.
- If you prefer playing a Aggro-control game since the beggining, or you perceive that a pro-active role is best for your own metagame, you wanna make sure you can draw those early threats. In order to do that, you have to diversificate beucause you can only play so many delve mechanic spells. 14-15 threats seem to be the magic number for me, and it avoids having to mulligan often to find threats.
I think Pyromancer is at his best when he fills this role in our deck. You want to be turning your creatures sideways early, and you wanna make sure they can effectively take down your opponent or at least bring him to burn range. This is the main reason I consider before sleeving my young peezys.
Thank you for the response on spell snare, y'all convinced me to keep 2. I've considered deprive myself. I like the idea of having at least one hard counter in the graveyard for the late game flashback. I currently put a single countersquall in the MB with the open spots from probe/YP. I think I'll run 3 leak, 2 snare, and a squall or a spell pierce. I really want to MB a second collective brutality though.
1) With blood moon in the side, would that mana be correct?
2) Again with blood moon, are the countersqualls too greedy? Should they be negates?
3) Without probes, people are considering cutting peezer. I still like peezer as he's great against midrange decks and proves a fast clock against uninteractive decks. But I saw someone run -2 young pyromancers, +1 clique, +1 grim lavamancer, and I liked the sound of that. It keeps your threat count high but has a smooth curve. Thoughts? Grim can fight with snap and early tasigur, but he helps out for late tasigurs, and match ups with a lot of lavamancer activations are the ones you're usually winning anyway. Testable? Too cute of an idea?
1) With blood moon in the side, would that mana be correct?
2) Again with blood moon, are the countersqualls too greedy? Should they be negates?
3) Without probes, people are considering cutting peezer. I still like peezer as he's great against midrange decks and proves a fast clock against uninteractive decks. But I saw someone run -2 young pyromancers, +1 clique, +1 grim lavamancer, and I liked the sound of that. It keeps your threat count high but has a smooth curve. Thoughts? Grim can fight with snap and early tasigur, but he helps out for late tasigurs, and match ups with a lot of lavamancer activations are the ones you're usually winning anyway. Testable? Too cute of an idea?
Thanks!!
1. I would up your fetch count to 9 or 10 if you want to run blood moon.
2. Countersquall is fine!
3. Can't answer the lavamancer question through experience, but I think it might tax the GY too hard. I saw that list too. You should test it out, and report ;P Thats what i'm doing with cryptic and tarpit. (which is working out amazing)
1) With blood moon in the side, would that mana be correct?
2) Again with blood moon, are the countersqualls too greedy? Should they be negates?
3) Without probes, people are considering cutting peezer. I still like peezer as he's great against midrange decks and proves a fast clock against uninteractive decks. But I saw someone run -2 young pyromancers, +1 clique, +1 grim lavamancer, and I liked the sound of that. It keeps your threat count high but has a smooth curve. Thoughts? Grim can fight with snap and early tasigur, but he helps out for late tasigurs, and match ups with a lot of lavamancer activations are the ones you're usually winning anyway. Testable? Too cute of an idea?
Thanks!!
1. I would up your fetch count to 9 or 10 if you want to run blood moon.
2. Countersquall is fine!
3. Can't answer the lavamancer question through experience, but I think it might tax the GY too hard. I saw that list too. You should test it out, and report ;P Thats what i'm doing with cryptic and tarpit. (which is working out amazing)
Since one has to fetch Island and Swamp plus have an R source by turn-three for Blood Moon, more fetches is indicated.
One should not often have a problem with Countersquall mana in the match-ups wherein one would want Blood Moon. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.
Lavaman will compete for resources as you say but he's probably test-able. He might be a side-board card. I personally haven't used him outside of Burn but he's frequently a one-of in Jund, sometimes main-deck sometimes side-board. Lava man is definitely NOT cute; he's legitimate.
Blood Moon will not beat Tron. It may well beat some of the other bad match-ups Delver has, but it will only slow Tron down a little. I would personally rather do some damage turn-three than hope Blood Moon is going to stick. Your mileage may vary but I've used Blood Moon against Tron twice in different decks - an admittedly insignificant amount of statistical data - and it did not help. Flipping Delver turn-two and countering Pyroclasm will help. Turn-two Banana King will help. Blood Moon might give you an extra turn or two and that might be good enough to win some extra games but Delver can beat Tron without Blood Moon.
Hey everyone! In addition to my dallying in Grixis Delver, I've started up a Modern Esper Delver Primer in Deck Creation. Come by and check it out if you're interested; I'd love to hear feedback from other Delver pilots!
OK, back to your regularly schedule Grixis show.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
I used to SB a single copy of Lavamancer when my meta was mostly creature decks(Infect, Merfolk, Hatebears,CoCo Elves, Affinity) and I always liked it. I cut the Murderous Cut from the 75 and would shave a single delve creature(Gurmag) when siding him in though.
I still think blood moon is the right call, but it looks like an extra fetch is the way to go and the clique plus lavamancer plan is worth testing out. (I've always loved the lava man so this is a double plus)
1) Pyromancer: YES. It is our wincon, a nightmare for all midrange decks.
You: T2 Pyro
Them: T3 Liliana, and you wish you'd kept up Mana Leak
You: T2 Pyro
Them: Bolt, you're missing your countermagic again
You: T5 Pyro with countermagic held up
You: Huh, I wish I had something that could swing for 5 next turn and actually close out this game before they topdeck their out
I'd rather splash white for Lingering Souls than ever put Young Pyro in a Modern deck again. We already have good matchups against midrange when we hold up counterspells because without Pyros, and boarding out Delver, most of their removal is stone dead against us and they can't do anything about Mana Leak and Spell Pierce.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Looks beautiful! I absolutely love seeing this.
Been working on my own too. Different build and missing a few foils though. Plus, with the Git Probe ban, I need to rework it, but this is more or less what I ran beforehand. Foils missing: 4x Scalding Tarn (waiting for reprints), Bloodstained Mire (was in and out of the deck, didn't want to commit), 1x Spell Snare (ran 1 for a long time, recently added second, only had 1 foil), and then some expensive sideboard cards like Blood Moon, AV, and EE. I would get foil Countersqualls, but I LOVE LOVE LOVE the Duel Deck art so much more than the original. And the DD version doesn't come in foil.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Pyro is still great in the deck, as long as you're taking a more proactive approach when you consider card choices.
Also to update my cryptic testing.. went 4-0 and 3-1 in the last 2 lgs events. Deck feels much more midrangey, and hitting 3 U is easy.
Cryptic has so much versatility, I don't see myself cutting it anytime soon.
Tar pit continues to over perform for me!
Hey 9tailz , can you post your list?
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
Instants 23
3 Cryptic Command
1 Electrolyze
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Mana Leak
1 Murderous Cut
3 Spell Snare
3 Terminate
4 Thought Scour
4 Serum Visions
Lands 21
1 Blood Crypt
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Watery Grave
2 Molten Rain
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Countersquall
2 Dispel
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
2 Painful truths
Will probably do a 2/2 split of terminate and push. I wanted more burn for reach, but I also wanted more cantrips. I "combined" collective brutality and remand and threw in the electrolyze. That slot is the most flexible right now though. The deck is much more grindy, which I felt was a strong point of grixis delver in the first place. Especially for being a delver deck. The play style is a lot like the control variant, but with the ability to push opponents into bolt snap bolt, swing tarpit range off a t2 flip delver. It's great so far, but i've only had so many games with this variant. TBH, tar pit and cryptic are over performing for me.
edit: After debating with myself today, I switched electrolyze for a clique.
Yay for foil deck threads! I'm just missing 2 Brutalities myself and whatever amount of Fatal Pushes we end up running. $30 bucks a piece seems a bit ridiculous right now though, so I'll wait until those settle down a bit.
URBURB
I'm not sure you'd still want 4 of them like Owenturf does, but it still answers a lot of spells that we don't ever want to see resolved so I keep 2 on my list.
URBURB
One thing to remember with Snapcaster lists is that situational 1-ofs and 2-ofs are great (especially in conjunction with Thought Scour). It minimizes your risk of drawing too many of the wrong answer when you don't want it, while giving more options and the possibility of multiple casts via Snaps.
On that note, I've actually started upping my Deprive count in Delver from 1 to 2 in the 75. The first few times I tried it, it felt horrible since I wanted to hit something turn 2 but didn't want the tempo loss. However, with Fatal Push making immediate counterspells a little less necessary (and of course with Leak and Snare backing it up), I've found I almost never find myself thinking "I wish this were any other counter/removal right now," and I very often end up thanking my stars that it's not a Countersquall or a Mana Leak. Since we play on a lean curve, I've found I usually don't mind the land bounce too much (vs. in Control, where it makes me want to smash my face in with a brick). And since we're not an all-out aggro deck, I very often find my opponent able to pay through Remand or Mana Leak to stick a game-winning spell.
Just make sure you fetch a basic Island so you don't have to keep Shocking yourself.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
I think it really comes down to this:
- How many threats and how often and early in the game you want to be drawing them
- If you're ok playing a passive early-game more often than not, 12-13 threats usually does the trick. So you don't have much room for threat diversification, since you're probably running 4delver, 4-5 delve fatties, 4snappies, maybe add 1 clique or something else with utility.
- If you prefer playing a Aggro-control game since the beggining, or you perceive that a pro-active role is best for your own metagame, you wanna make sure you can draw those early threats. In order to do that, you have to diversificate beucause you can only play so many delve mechanic spells. 14-15 threats seem to be the magic number for me, and it avoids having to mulligan often to find threats.
I think Pyromancer is at his best when he fills this role in our deck. You want to be turning your creatures sideways early, and you wanna make sure they can effectively take down your opponent or at least bring him to burn range. This is the main reason I consider before sleeving my young peezys.
It's on precisely the same boat as Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. Except less good in Standard. Can be good, but largely eh.
20 lands
4 delta
2 mire
2 tarn
2 vents
1 grave
1 crypt
1 swamp
1 mountain
3 islands
2 spirebuff canal
1 darkslick shore
26 spells
4 serum visions
4 thoughtscours
4 bolt
2 fatal push
2 terminate
4 mana leak
2 spell snare
1 collective brutality
1 k command
2 electrolyze
14 creatures
4 delver
4 snapcasters
2 young pyromancers
3 tasigur
1 gurmaug angler
Sideboard
2 dispel
2 countersquall
1 vendillion clique
1 k command
1 desolate lighthouse
1 Pia and Kiran
1 painful truths
2 rakdos charn
1 izzet staticcaster
2 blood moon
1 collective brutality
I have three questions about it though.
1) With blood moon in the side, would that mana be correct?
2) Again with blood moon, are the countersqualls too greedy? Should they be negates?
3) Without probes, people are considering cutting peezer. I still like peezer as he's great against midrange decks and proves a fast clock against uninteractive decks. But I saw someone run -2 young pyromancers, +1 clique, +1 grim lavamancer, and I liked the sound of that. It keeps your threat count high but has a smooth curve. Thoughts? Grim can fight with snap and early tasigur, but he helps out for late tasigurs, and match ups with a lot of lavamancer activations are the ones you're usually winning anyway. Testable? Too cute of an idea?
Thanks!!
1. I would up your fetch count to 9 or 10 if you want to run blood moon.
2. Countersquall is fine!
3. Can't answer the lavamancer question through experience, but I think it might tax the GY too hard. I saw that list too. You should test it out, and report ;P Thats what i'm doing with cryptic and tarpit. (which is working out amazing)
Since one has to fetch Island and Swamp plus have an R source by turn-three for Blood Moon, more fetches is indicated.
One should not often have a problem with Countersquall mana in the match-ups wherein one would want Blood Moon. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.
Lavaman will compete for resources as you say but he's probably test-able. He might be a side-board card. I personally haven't used him outside of Burn but he's frequently a one-of in Jund, sometimes main-deck sometimes side-board. Lava man is definitely NOT cute; he's legitimate.
Blood Moon will not beat Tron. It may well beat some of the other bad match-ups Delver has, but it will only slow Tron down a little. I would personally rather do some damage turn-three than hope Blood Moon is going to stick. Your mileage may vary but I've used Blood Moon against Tron twice in different decks - an admittedly insignificant amount of statistical data - and it did not help. Flipping Delver turn-two and countering Pyroclasm will help. Turn-two Banana King will help. Blood Moon might give you an extra turn or two and that might be good enough to win some extra games but Delver can beat Tron without Blood Moon.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
OK, back to your regularly schedule Grixis show.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
URBURB
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
That's very true. I hadn't thought about that.
I still think blood moon is the right call, but it looks like an extra fetch is the way to go and the clique plus lavamancer plan is worth testing out. (I've always loved the lava man so this is a double plus)
Thanks!
You: T2 Pyro
Them: T3 Liliana, and you wish you'd kept up Mana Leak
You: T2 Pyro
Them: Bolt, you're missing your countermagic again
You: T5 Pyro with countermagic held up
You: Huh, I wish I had something that could swing for 5 next turn and actually close out this game before they topdeck their out
I'd rather splash white for Lingering Souls than ever put Young Pyro in a Modern deck again. We already have good matchups against midrange when we hold up counterspells because without Pyros, and boarding out Delver, most of their removal is stone dead against us and they can't do anything about Mana Leak and Spell Pierce.