Okay, don't pull up arguments out of context then. It isn't only about Snap->Probe, it's about synergy with almost every card in the deck, bringing information and digging deeper along the way. Of course it defined how the deck was played. Calling it hyperbolic sounds like you either didn't play the card at all, or just doesn't see the difference between turn 2 and turn 3 in this fast format.
For me real cornercase scenario regarding Probe is, I don't know, drawing scried topdeck after mulligan on the play with no other lands in hand except fetches. But it wasn't even mentioned in the list above. Those interactions were natural by themselves and gave pressure and knowledge in every matchup, outside of aggro. And even there you could just cycle the card for mana. That's why it was awesome.
What situations has Young Pyro ever helped anybody in? I never need his chump blockers, and they're rarely useful on offense unless the board's clear, in which case I'm already heavily favored to win. Yeah, it's cool when you 'storm off' and make a ton of tokens, but I feel like most players are biased in favor of the few times he does something rather than the huge majority of the time when he doesn't. Playing him on Turn 2 is always a mistake because he has no ETB trigger and can't block- when your opponent spends T2 on Blighted Agent, or Goyf, or Arcbound Ravager, or Finks, or Scrying for a Tron land, or Thought-Knot, and you drop a land and play the twink, your opponent is breathing a sigh of relief, because the earliest you're swinging with those tokens is T4.
Pyromancer has been great in my particular meta. Lots of uninteractive decks with no way or very few ways to take care of him. And he's never been a win more for me - you might be focusing on all the times where he's done nothing. And ironically, he's great in the Bant Eldrazi matchup because of all of the chump blockers he can produce. He was great against Midrange and Jund.
Losing Gitaxian Probe is definitely a big deal if you played Pyromancer.
The only matchups I don't feel good about are Bant Eldrazi and Tron, because Bant's creatures don't line up well with your countermagic on the best of days, and they have Cavern. Tron is self-evident, playing them is miserable now that they've started using World Breaker and Ulamog- now they have Collective Brutality too, which is exactly what your Delver doesn't want to see. (You have to leave them in in this matchup because you need the pressure). I think trying to fix Tron with sideboard slots might be counterproductive, and like Jund, we might just have to throw the matchup and pray to the linear aggro gods to hate them out of the format.
Both of these matchups are more than manageable with Blood Moon in the sideboard. Yes, G1 with suck, but G2-3 will be so much better. 2 Blood Moon or 2 Molten Rain, idgaf, are cards that we'll need to include from now on and should have probably been in there anyway.
As an aside, I've done some testing and come to the conclusion that ultimately a Ryan Overturf style deck is now going to be the preferred way moving forward. I still think that his deck is better than going Grixis Control (i.e. 4 Delver instead of 4 Ancestral Vision), but it's an awkward moment.
Can you give us a breakdown of your testing and why you feel that way? I've also been thinking that it's time to move on to that build (even if I don't like it as much), but I'd like some methodology to back it up.
Edit: Oh, awhile back I mentioned that I had been playing Cryptics in my side for grindier matchups and that I'd report back with how I did. After a few weeks I've decided that they're not great. UUU can be hard sometimes (even in grindy matchups) and they just didn't do enough to justify their spot.
Okay, don't pull up arguments out of context then. It isn't only about Snap->Probe, it's about synergy with almost every card in the deck, bringing information and digging deeper along the way. Of course it defined how the deck was played. Calling it hyperbolic sounds like you either didn't play the card at all, or just doesn't see the difference between turn 2 and turn 3 in this fast format.
For me real cornercase scenario regarding Probe is, I don't know, drawing scried topdeck after mulligan with no other lands in hand except fetches. But it wasn't even mentioned in the list above. Those interactions were natural by themselves and gave pressure and knowledge in every matchup, outside of aggro. And even there you could just cycle the card for mana. That's why it was awesome.
Then you should talk about those and not bring up things that come up every once in a while against specific decks. I'm not arguing that everything you are saying is a cornercase scenario, just that you don't use those in addition to what the card was used for most of the time to add weight to the loss of the card simply because I don't think that stuff like seeing your opponent's hand when you cast Kolaghan's command with a discard mode have enough weight to be arguments for how good the card was. Things like casting probe after a YP and improving delver flips are valid concerns because they were done against different archetypes regardless of what they were and because they affected your general gameplan and your opening hands, things like casting our 1of of Gurmag on turn 2 because of probe are not because those situations happen in a case by case basis and don't happen often enough to make a case for the card.
I don't think we can afford to lose the clock from Delver. I've played both decks for a while now and Grixis control sometimes just ends up losing because it can't close the game fast enough.
I've also been thinking that it's time to move on to that build (even if I don't like it as much), but I'd like some methodology to back it up.
Every time I'm considering playing Overturf's build, I always end up asking myself if it's better to just go full Grixis Control.
I've played both and find Delver to be stronger right now. Ancestral Vision is nice, but Delver provides a fast clock in matchups where we need it. It also has a higher spell density, which means that we have a higher chance to draw gas than other decks.
I've also been thinking that it's time to move on to that build (even if I don't like it as much), but I'd like some methodology to back it up.
Every time I'm considering playing Overturf's build, I always end up asking myself if it's better to just go full Grixis Control.
I've played both and find Delver to be stronger right now. Ancestral Vision is nice, but Delver provides a fast clock in matchups where we need it. It also has a higher spell density, which means that we have a higher chance to draw gas than other decks.
I think so. The decks that play Fatal Push aren't decks that we want Delver against anyways and they'll be boarded out. We can also slide into the control role against those decks game 1.
Whereas against Tron/Valakut and decks like that I'd rather have Delvers in my deck.
Some people aren't "hybrid" people, and that's perfectly OK. Certain mages are just wired to go "all-in". If I'm playing control, I am. If I'm going aggro, I am. Delver AND 20 lands with countermagic? Halfway feels awkward.
Myself, I like hybrids. I like being able to adjust on the fly. I acknowledge and accept that I won't be as consistent as a specialist, but I like the fact I can handle more situations, albeit not as well. I liked Overturf's list but I didn't play 20 lands maindeck: the 20th land (lighthouse) sat in my sideboard, and came in with AV for attrition games. This applies to even when I play elves - I like both GB Shaman and GW Toolbox, so I play Abzan elves with fetches and mix 3 shamans with skite and rec sage.
I played grixis control following the ban of twin (i was on grixis twin) and I can vouch for the fact that grixis control has issues with closing games, especially if you didn't draw a manland. AV maybe helps now in drawing threats or answers for leftover opponent's threats, but the general "can't close this" feel is there. Having a 3/2 flier you can plunk down for a 1 mana investment just feels right.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
There's a big meta component to it as well. My local meta has shown to be mostly midrange and combo decks, which I feel like Delver isn't fast enough to race and not disruptive enough to keep from going off. Going all-in aggressive or more methodically picking their plans apart seems to be the better call for me.
In an open meta, I'd probably rather sleeve Delver. Having that early clock not only means that your opponent has a smaller window to do their thing, but also that your answers don't need to be as specific, which is a big deal.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
My Delver list has been switching between permission (Pierce, Leak, Remand). It's my Control list that's been on discard. Nice memory, though!
Maybe it's just been luck of the draw, but I've found that even with Delver and Bolt-Snap-Bolt, closing out the game in time is difficult with the limited permission I can smush into Delver. From my last few visits, I've seen two Mono-U Tron, one Gx Tron, a Kiki-Chord, an Abzan Company, and an Ad Nauseam. And maybe another one or two that I'm forgetting. That's what put me on the Control + Discard path, although presently I'm waffling on discard vs. permission.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Can you give us a breakdown of your testing and why you feel that way? I've also been thinking that it's time to move on to that build (even if I don't like it as much), but I'd like some methodology to back it up.
Edit: Oh, awhile back I mentioned that I had been playing Cryptics in my side for grindier matchups and that I'd report back with how I did. After a few weeks I've decided that they're not great. UUU can be hard sometimes (even in grindy matchups) and they just didn't do enough to justify their spot.
I'm actually testing 3 cryptics main.
Good so far.
I'm on 21 lands, and 12 creatures which leaves 27 ways to flip delver still.
Can you give us a breakdown of your testing and why you feel that way? I've also been thinking that it's time to move on to that build (even if I don't like it as much), but I'd like some methodology to back it up.
Edit: Oh, awhile back I mentioned that I had been playing Cryptics in my side for grindier matchups and that I'd report back with how I did. After a few weeks I've decided that they're not great. UUU can be hard sometimes (even in grindy matchups) and they just didn't do enough to justify their spot.
I'm actually testing 3 cryptics main.
Good so far.
I'm on 21 lands, and 12 creatures which leaves 27 ways to flip delver still.
To be honest, at this point I would just switch over to Grixis Control. With your setup Ancestral Vision sounds way better than Delver.
Looks good! But with your list I'd probably consider shaving 1-2 pushes, as six creature kill only spells sounds a little high in a format where decks like tron exist. Speaking of tron, Id also cut at least 2 of those surgicals for some land hate. If you want some amount of gy hate that's still fine, but you probably don't need the full 4 anymore, and the big anti-interactive decks in the meta will most likely be tron, bant eldrazi, and valakut. Personally I think blood moon is the best land hate we have, but there's a debate raging on about what's the right land hate right now, and we probably won't see concensus til games start being played in earnest
Can you give us a breakdown of your testing and why you feel that way? I've also been thinking that it's time to move on to that build (even if I don't like it as much), but I'd like some methodology to back it up.
Edit: Oh, awhile back I mentioned that I had been playing Cryptics in my side for grindier matchups and that I'd report back with how I did. After a few weeks I've decided that they're not great. UUU can be hard sometimes (even in grindy matchups) and they just didn't do enough to justify their spot.
I'm actually testing 3 cryptics main.
Good so far.
I'm on 21 lands, and 12 creatures which leaves 27 ways to flip delver still.
To be honest, at this point I would just switch over to Grixis Control. With your setup Ancestral Vision sounds way better than Delver.
I was on corey control (slight changes) for a couple weeks, just testing differences between delver and control. The idea stemmed from wanting to go back to delver, but respecting the raw power of cryptic. Had to drop pyro, which I was slightly hesitant about, but it's good so far. Ancestral is a pretty horrid top deck in most matches, while delver at least remains a (possible) 3/2 flyer for 1 mana. Also, i've been playing delver since innistrad (with breaks) so while playing control, I frequently found myself missing my free tempo wins on a t2 flip... haha. Ah I also forgot to mention I didn't change the land base that much, so 2 creepings stuck in. I know, I know tapped land but tbh, creeping has swung for the win multiple times. Still, more testing to be done of course.
Makes sense. I appreciate that you're pushing the boundaries to see how far they can go. I will say that I don't think that Delver is much better of a top deck than Ancestral late game if you've successfully stabilized as Grixis Control.
I played a one of Creeping Tar Pit, and I agree that it was great on a stalled board FTW. I can't say if it was better or worse than a Desolate Lighthouse or even a Ghost Quarter/Tectonic Edge.
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For me real cornercase scenario regarding Probe is, I don't know, drawing scried topdeck after mulligan on the play with no other lands in hand except fetches. But it wasn't even mentioned in the list above. Those interactions were natural by themselves and gave pressure and knowledge in every matchup, outside of aggro. And even there you could just cycle the card for mana. That's why it was awesome.
Pyromancer has been great in my particular meta. Lots of uninteractive decks with no way or very few ways to take care of him. And he's never been a win more for me - you might be focusing on all the times where he's done nothing. And ironically, he's great in the Bant Eldrazi matchup because of all of the chump blockers he can produce. He was great against Midrange and Jund.
Losing Gitaxian Probe is definitely a big deal if you played Pyromancer.
Both of these matchups are more than manageable with Blood Moon in the sideboard. Yes, G1 with suck, but G2-3 will be so much better. 2 Blood Moon or 2 Molten Rain, idgaf, are cards that we'll need to include from now on and should have probably been in there anyway.
As an aside, I've done some testing and come to the conclusion that ultimately a Ryan Overturf style deck is now going to be the preferred way moving forward. I still think that his deck is better than going Grixis Control (i.e. 4 Delver instead of 4 Ancestral Vision), but it's an awkward moment.
Edit: Oh, awhile back I mentioned that I had been playing Cryptics in my side for grindier matchups and that I'd report back with how I did. After a few weeks I've decided that they're not great. UUU can be hard sometimes (even in grindy matchups) and they just didn't do enough to justify their spot.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Then you should talk about those and not bring up things that come up every once in a while against specific decks. I'm not arguing that everything you are saying is a cornercase scenario, just that you don't use those in addition to what the card was used for most of the time to add weight to the loss of the card simply because I don't think that stuff like seeing your opponent's hand when you cast Kolaghan's command with a discard mode have enough weight to be arguments for how good the card was. Things like casting probe after a YP and improving delver flips are valid concerns because they were done against different archetypes regardless of what they were and because they affected your general gameplan and your opening hands, things like casting our 1of of Gurmag on turn 2 because of probe are not because those situations happen in a case by case basis and don't happen often enough to make a case for the card.
URBURB
URBURB
I've played both and find Delver to be stronger right now. Ancestral Vision is nice, but Delver provides a fast clock in matchups where we need it. It also has a higher spell density, which means that we have a higher chance to draw gas than other decks.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
I think so. The decks that play Fatal Push aren't decks that we want Delver against anyways and they'll be boarded out. We can also slide into the control role against those decks game 1.
Whereas against Tron/Valakut and decks like that I'd rather have Delvers in my deck.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Myself, I like hybrids. I like being able to adjust on the fly. I acknowledge and accept that I won't be as consistent as a specialist, but I like the fact I can handle more situations, albeit not as well. I liked Overturf's list but I didn't play 20 lands maindeck: the 20th land (lighthouse) sat in my sideboard, and came in with AV for attrition games. This applies to even when I play elves - I like both GB Shaman and GW Toolbox, so I play Abzan elves with fetches and mix 3 shamans with skite and rec sage.
I played grixis control following the ban of twin (i was on grixis twin) and I can vouch for the fact that grixis control has issues with closing games, especially if you didn't draw a manland. AV maybe helps now in drawing threats or answers for leftover opponent's threats, but the general "can't close this" feel is there. Having a 3/2 flier you can plunk down for a 1 mana investment just feels right.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
In an open meta, I'd probably rather sleeve Delver. Having that early clock not only means that your opponent has a smaller window to do their thing, but also that your answers don't need to be as specific, which is a big deal.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Interesting. I've found Delver to be better against combo decks. Are there some in particular that you think are better for Control?
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Maybe it's just been luck of the draw, but I've found that even with Delver and Bolt-Snap-Bolt, closing out the game in time is difficult with the limited permission I can smush into Delver. From my last few visits, I've seen two Mono-U Tron, one Gx Tron, a Kiki-Chord, an Abzan Company, and an Ad Nauseam. And maybe another one or two that I'm forgetting. That's what put me on the Control + Discard path, although presently I'm waffling on discard vs. permission.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
I'm actually testing 3 cryptics main.
Good so far.
I'm on 21 lands, and 12 creatures which leaves 27 ways to flip delver still.
Grixis Delver
- 14 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Young Pyromancer
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
- 26 Spells
4 Fatal Push
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
2 Spell Snare
4 Thought Scour
4 Mana Leak
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
- 20 Lands
1 Blood Crypt
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Spirebluff Canal
2 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
- 15 Sideboard
2 Countersquall
2 Dispel
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Magma Spray
2 Painful Truths
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Vandalblast
To be honest, at this point I would just switch over to Grixis Control. With your setup Ancestral Vision sounds way better than Delver.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Looks good! But with your list I'd probably consider shaving 1-2 pushes, as six creature kill only spells sounds a little high in a format where decks like tron exist. Speaking of tron, Id also cut at least 2 of those surgicals for some land hate. If you want some amount of gy hate that's still fine, but you probably don't need the full 4 anymore, and the big anti-interactive decks in the meta will most likely be tron, bant eldrazi, and valakut. Personally I think blood moon is the best land hate we have, but there's a debate raging on about what's the right land hate right now, and we probably won't see concensus til games start being played in earnest
I was on corey control (slight changes) for a couple weeks, just testing differences between delver and control. The idea stemmed from wanting to go back to delver, but respecting the raw power of cryptic. Had to drop pyro, which I was slightly hesitant about, but it's good so far. Ancestral is a pretty horrid top deck in most matches, while delver at least remains a (possible) 3/2 flyer for 1 mana. Also, i've been playing delver since innistrad (with breaks) so while playing control, I frequently found myself missing my free tempo wins on a t2 flip... haha. Ah I also forgot to mention I didn't change the land base that much, so 2 creepings stuck in. I know, I know tapped land but tbh, creeping has swung for the win multiple times. Still, more testing to be done of course.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer