I recently just picked up this deck But I got destroyed by eldrazi and Tron (20-30 games) felt like a pretty hard MU or im playing it wrong. im playing a list from SCG
Would love to get some advice and SB for these 2 MU Thanks!
Creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Vendilion Clique
Just to back it up, tron and eldrazi are hard. (Try winning against eldrazi tron -_-)
Mana denial can go a long way. t2 tas is great here, but watch out for dismember. I run 3 molten rain in SB, because I face a good amount of big mana decks. If you feel like it, scouring a tron land or stone raining one and surgical-ing it puts you in a pretty good spot. These 2 truly are tough match ups. They go big and don't stop with high quality threats.
Just to back it up, tron and eldrazi are hard. (Try winning against eldrazi tron -_-)
Mana denial can go a long way. t2 tas is great here, but watch out for dismember. I run 3 molten rain in SB, because I face a good amount of big mana decks. If you feel like it, scouring a tron land or stone raining one and surgical-ing it puts you in a pretty good spot. These 2 truly are tough match ups. They go big and don't stop with high quality threats.
I'm going to reiterate this because people need to understand how Eldrazi works.
When you destroy an Eldrazi Temple, you effectively kill 2 lands. If you Blood Moon in, you also effectively kill 2 lands. I still think that Blood Moon is a better sideboard card overall for Grixis (in the YP version), but Molten Rain is sweet with the damage.
I actually think that the Young Pyromancer version is decently well positioned vs Bant Eldrazi. They don't have a lot of removal, and most of our removal lines up well. You also get tons of tokens because they lack removal for every single threat.
Creature Wise: Eldrazi Displacer is the must kill threat for the deck. He can loop Seers, and get more Eldrazi Scions from various creatures, and also "reset" our Delvers. Thought-knot Seer is a card that ideally you will counter. However, Terminate and a Revolt Fatal Push will take care of it. Reality Smasher gets wrecked by Gurmag Angler, and also by Terminate. Eldrazi Skyspawner is really good against us, but G1 Electrolyze is strong.
Always bolt the Hierarchs
Chalice of the Void is brutal but at least we have Kolaghan's Command to deal with it quite easily, and EE out of the board.
Just my thoughts. Have played against them a decent amount. I think it's pretty 50/50.
I think that he's on board with the whole "it's only good for matchups that are already good and doesn't improve your bad matchups"
I'm mostly on the side of the first comment. I'd rather play 2-3 copies in the 75 and make my good matchups 60-40s and open up space on my SB for the bad matchups. To me it's weird that he has 2 Magma Spray and a Go for the Throat on the board instead of ticking up his Fatal Push count on the MB and then filling those spots with dedicated hate instead of mediocre catch all cards IE Surgical Extractions/Ravenous Trap and Molten Rains/Crumble to Dusts. That way you are always a 60-40 against your good matchups and then bring 5+ Hate cards against the bad ones that you're already losing game 1 anyways.
It's not like not having Fatal Pushes in your MB is gonna do anything against turn 3 Karn or turn 1 Faithless Looting. Might as well make the deck always beat it's good matchups with the mainboard and then side into many powerful hate cards with your SB.
Magma spray is a unique card that does not overlap with Push much at all. It exiles finks/voice and similar creatures that are likely to get recurred. The exile clause is very important.
I think that he's on board with the whole "it's only good for matchups that are already good and doesn't improve your bad matchups"
I'm mostly on the side of the first comment. I'd rather play 2-3 copies in the 75 and make my good matchups 60-40s and open up space on my SB for the bad matchups. To me it's weird that he has 2 Magma Spray and a Go for the Throat on the board instead of ticking up his Fatal Push count on the MB and then filling those spots with dedicated hate instead of mediocre catch all cards IE Surgical Extractions/Ravenous Trap and Molten Rains/Crumble to Dusts. That way you are always a 60-40 against your good matchups and then bring 5+ Hate cards against the bad ones that you're already losing game 1 anyways.
It's not like not having Fatal Pushes in your MB is gonna do anything against turn 3 Karn or turn 1 Faithless Looting. Might as well make the deck always beat it's good matchups with the mainboard and then side into many powerful hate cards with your SB.
Magma spray is a unique card that does not overlap with Push much at all. It exiles finks/voice and similar creatures that are likely to get recurred. The exile clause is very important.
What I'm saying is that he plays Magma Spray over cards like Nihil Spellbomb, Rakdos Charm, and Ravenous Trap. He does this not because Magma Spray is better than those at dealing with GY based strategies, but because they double down as extra removal for Infect, Affinity, Burn, Merfolk and Zoo variants.
So it seems counterintuitive to say "Well Fatal Push isn't that good to us because we're already winning those matches" and then to dilute your SB Graveyard hate to play a card that tries to do both things because you want to side it in for those matchups you're supposedly already winning(Somehow not winning enough that you need the Sprays, but winning them enough that you DON'T need push).
It makes no sense to me that he doesn't up his Push count, and then cuts on potential GY hate just so he can play a card that isn't as good as either dedicated hate or Fatal Push. Specially because last week he was talking about how not even 4 copies of Surgical make the dredge matchup good because Jones got stomped by Dredge with 4 on his board. So why cut them down and dilute your SB hate to play cards that are strictly worse and only help you with the matches that are supposed to be good already?
Check out some Magic Gameplay and Commentary videos here, including Modern Grixis, Jeskai, and Esper videos as well as some Standard and Drafts too: My YouTube Channel!
Probably cut down on the Fulminators and the K-Commands. That strategy is better for the Control versions of the deck. I prefer the Molten rain-snap-molten rain plan over Fulminator-command-fulminator as it's more aggressive since you'll rarely have any time to swing with the fulminators for the 2 DMG. I'd take out either a Terminate or the Murderous Cut since you already have 3 fatal push + 2 other cards for whatever they can't hit. Probably get rid of Remand too for now. It's just poorly positioned in the meta atm.
First off understand this is a pyro heavy forum, so there's that lol. Next, why are you running murderous cut? Fatal is our 1 Mana kill with out delving. I like 20 lands also, if you're not running probes. Especially since you're running 4 3 mana spells mb.
Ryan Overturf's updated Delver list with Fatal Push:
Losing Pyromancer entirely seems really, really bad. Then again, I have disagreed with his lists for a long time.
The more I play his "style" of Delver, the less I like it. I used to jam 20 land lists a lot, and after awhile I realized that a lot of the time I was doing a kinda bad Grixis Control impression. Pyromancer just makes everything more efficient and is a giant pain in the ass for a lot of decks to deal with.
With FP now in existence, I can't imagine that the 20 land control route is the way to go when its possible to make the deck so efficient.
I am referring to the 20 land, no Pyromancer, no Probe lists. A lot of the time they play out like Grixis Control with a Delver as an extra win condition, but lacking the cards like Ancestral Vision that make Grixis Control good in the first place. The strength of Grixis Delver is its efficiency, but by durdling around with a full playset of nonsense like Mana Leak and Vendilion Clique, you open yourself up to being run out by other grindy decks and stomped by decks trying to go over the top.
Young Pyromancer does everything we want and, imo, should not be left home without. It's one of the few cards that lets you outgrind Abzan and put pressure on Tron.
Edit: also, unless your meta is almost entirely Burn, I don't think it's correct to not play Gitaxian Probe either. The card is too efficient and has a very relevant effect on the game.
Well, it depends on the type of aggro. Burn feels bad but sometimes its necessary against Affinity to provide blockers with Young Pyromancer. Death's Shadow is gonna do damage in huge chunks so you don't really have to worry about chip shots (and we have a pretty good matchup against them either way and it's likely to get better with Fatal Push), and it doesn't matter against infect at all.
Personally I think Probe is just way too good to avoid. There's only a couple decks that truly punish Probe while it's a huge boon against any other deck. The info is great, free Delve fodder is great and having things to flashback with Snap on 2 against certain decks (like Tron or Valakut) is also pretty sweet.
A copy or two of Fatal Push in the 75 seems like a good idea. Three in the main seems to be a bad idea. It will sometimes be dead when other removal will not. It will feel very bad playing Tron or Titan-shift or possibly even Eldrazi. It doesn't help much with any bad match-up that I can think of. It's Snapcaster Mage-friendly, so I want one somewhere, but I'm not cutting any copies of Terminate for it.
Rex was excited about Fatal Push for a while, but it would require a big shift in the mana-base to roll with it in the Rock, so even there, two copies will probably be it.
how so cause tron and R/G plays pyro and anger MB wont having pyro still be the same? im still now seeing how this deck can beat valakut and tron
Mana denial can go a long way. t2 tas is great here, but watch out for dismember. I run 3 molten rain in SB, because I face a good amount of big mana decks. If you feel like it, scouring a tron land or stone raining one and surgical-ing it puts you in a pretty good spot. These 2 truly are tough match ups. They go big and don't stop with high quality threats.
I'm going to reiterate this because people need to understand how Eldrazi works.
When you destroy an Eldrazi Temple, you effectively kill 2 lands. If you Blood Moon in, you also effectively kill 2 lands. I still think that Blood Moon is a better sideboard card overall for Grixis (in the YP version), but Molten Rain is sweet with the damage.
I actually think that the Young Pyromancer version is decently well positioned vs Bant Eldrazi. They don't have a lot of removal, and most of our removal lines up well. You also get tons of tokens because they lack removal for every single threat.
Creature Wise:
Eldrazi Displacer is the must kill threat for the deck. He can loop Seers, and get more Eldrazi Scions from various creatures, and also "reset" our Delvers.
Thought-knot Seer is a card that ideally you will counter. However, Terminate and a Revolt Fatal Push will take care of it.
Reality Smasher gets wrecked by Gurmag Angler, and also by Terminate.
Eldrazi Skyspawner is really good against us, but G1 Electrolyze is strong.
Always bolt the Hierarchs
Chalice of the Void is brutal but at least we have Kolaghan's Command to deal with it quite easily, and EE out of the board.
Just my thoughts. Have played against them a decent amount. I think it's pretty 50/50.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
Instants (23)
1 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan’s Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
4 Spell Snare
4 Terminate
4 Thought Scour
4 Serum Visions
1 Collective Brutality
Lands (20)
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Spirebluff Canal
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
3 Countersquall
1 Dispel
2 Magma Spray
2 Spell Pierce
1 Go for the Throat
4 Surgical Extraction
On his Modern Nexus article.
I'm mostly on the side of the first comment. I'd rather play 2-3 copies in the 75 and make my good matchups 60-40s and open up space on my SB for the bad matchups. To me it's weird that he has 2 Magma Spray and a Go for the Throat on the board instead of ticking up his Fatal Push count on the MB and then filling those spots with dedicated hate instead of mediocre catch all cards IE Surgical Extractions/Ravenous Trap and Molten Rains/Crumble to Dusts. That way you are always a 60-40 against your good matchups and then bring 5+ Hate cards against the bad ones that you're already losing game 1 anyways.
It's not like not having Fatal Pushes in your MB is gonna do anything against turn 3 Karn or turn 1 Faithless Looting. Might as well make the deck always beat it's good matchups with the mainboard and then side into many powerful hate cards with your SB.
URBURB
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
This is my rationale as well.
Losing Pyromancer entirely seems really, really bad. Then again, I have disagreed with his lists for a long time.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
With more spot removal, I like having a threat that leaves value behind even if removed
Between abzan and the Rock, I think at least one of GB decks will make a pretty big showing, so I want yp around to fight Lili
3 mana to put two creatures on the board and kill your creature sounds excellent.
What I'm saying is that he plays Magma Spray over cards like Nihil Spellbomb, Rakdos Charm, and Ravenous Trap. He does this not because Magma Spray is better than those at dealing with GY based strategies, but because they double down as extra removal for Infect, Affinity, Burn, Merfolk and Zoo variants.
So it seems counterintuitive to say "Well Fatal Push isn't that good to us because we're already winning those matches" and then to dilute your SB Graveyard hate to play a card that tries to do both things because you want to side it in for those matchups you're supposedly already winning(Somehow not winning enough that you need the Sprays, but winning them enough that you DON'T need push).
It makes no sense to me that he doesn't up his Push count, and then cuts on potential GY hate just so he can play a card that isn't as good as either dedicated hate or Fatal Push. Specially because last week he was talking about how not even 4 copies of Surgical make the dredge matchup good because Jones got stomped by Dredge with 4 on his board. So why cut them down and dilute your SB hate to play cards that are strictly worse and only help you with the matches that are supposed to be good already?
URBURB
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
Instants/Sorceries (28):
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
1 Murderous Cut
3 Kolaghan's Command
1 Collective Brutality
4 Thought Scour
4 Serum Visions
2 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare
1 Remand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Countersquall
2 Dispel
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Collective Brutality
1 Painful Truths
Probably cut down on the Fulminators and the K-Commands. That strategy is better for the Control versions of the deck. I prefer the Molten rain-snap-molten rain plan over Fulminator-command-fulminator as it's more aggressive since you'll rarely have any time to swing with the fulminators for the 2 DMG. I'd take out either a Terminate or the Murderous Cut since you already have 3 fatal push + 2 other cards for whatever they can't hit. Probably get rid of Remand too for now. It's just poorly positioned in the meta atm.
URBURB
First off understand this is a pyro heavy forum, so there's that lol. Next, why are you running murderous cut? Fatal is our 1 Mana kill with out delving. I like 20 lands also, if you're not running probes. Especially since you're running 4 3 mana spells mb.
The more I play his "style" of Delver, the less I like it. I used to jam 20 land lists a lot, and after awhile I realized that a lot of the time I was doing a kinda bad Grixis Control impression. Pyromancer just makes everything more efficient and is a giant pain in the ass for a lot of decks to deal with.
With FP now in existence, I can't imagine that the 20 land control route is the way to go when its possible to make the deck so efficient.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
To clear up confusion for newer delver players, I believe you're referring to the counterspells heavy version with no Pyromancers.
Young Pyromancer does everything we want and, imo, should not be left home without. It's one of the few cards that lets you outgrind Abzan and put pressure on Tron.
Edit: also, unless your meta is almost entirely Burn, I don't think it's correct to not play Gitaxian Probe either. The card is too efficient and has a very relevant effect on the game.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Personally I think Probe is just way too good to avoid. There's only a couple decks that truly punish Probe while it's a huge boon against any other deck. The info is great, free Delve fodder is great and having things to flashback with Snap on 2 against certain decks (like Tron or Valakut) is also pretty sweet.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Rex was excited about Fatal Push for a while, but it would require a big shift in the mana-base to roll with it in the Rock, so even there, two copies will probably be it.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn