I watched the vlog after the games with him. A couple of mistakes from my side, but the matchup is so good I wasn't punished luckily. I did feel a bit sorry for him, this deck is so brutal against Affinity!
rothgar13, I'll try a split of Rakdos Charm and Surgical soon and report back how they are. I did put two charms along with three Surgicals in my SB a few weeks ago for my LGS, but nobody plays dredge there so I couldn't tell if they were good or not.
My reasoning for Cage over Surgical/Charm at the moment is you need a SB card in your opening hand anyway to beat them, or at least that's from my games so far. Surgical is only good enough if you have it on time to snipe some Amalgams, Ghasts or Narcos and in that case Cage is just a better card as it stops all of the threats from coming out of the yard. I'm going to be proxying up dredge to play vs some friends this weekend, hopefully we can come up with a good plan. I realise that Cage stops Surgical/Snap, but I side out the playset of Snapcasters when bringing in the cages.
Another option is Leylines. I'm just put off by the need to mull to them as playing it T4 is obviously much too slow.
I do like the idea of Rakdos Charm to their dome though, it's not an approach I'd considered. Go full on burn and try to race them with it as a 'finisher'. I'll try this too
Played a few more leagues yesterday, 4-1, 4-1 and a 3-2. But I was a bit tired a played poorly in some matches.
I feel like this deck is in a great position if the dredge matchup can be worked out. Cages are extreme, but the matchup is that bad we need a real haymaker.
It's a tier-2 deck unless being piloted by a very skilled pilot with a tonne of practice, then it's about tier 1.5. Hell of a lot of fun to play though. My 2 cents at least.
I like your card choices and the rationale behind them, but I would have liked to hear your thoughts on some of the more challenging matchups for Delver. Dredge and Bant Eldrazi are the most notable omissions, but Death & Taxes, Merfolk, and Titanshift should also be discussed.
Interesting list man, it looks like you are powering out some delve creatures and just hoping a delver flips naturally. I've had many cases where a serum visions doesn't help but it is our best card to help it. Glad to see you beat some of the tougher matchups. Could you possibly remember how you sideboarded for each?
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Interesting list man, it looks like you are powering out some delve creatures and just hoping a delver flips naturally. I've had many cases where a serum visions doesn't help but it is our best card to help it. Glad to see you beat some of the tougher matchups. Could you possibly remember how you sideboarded for each?
Yep, thats exactly what its about.
The first one I dont know anymore, but I dont think its important for anyone.
Tron was both times -3 Snare -2 Terminate, +2 Blood Moon +3 Countersquall (Saw just in G2 that he is on Eldrazi Tron and not usual Tron)
Jund was -4 Delver -1 Faithless Looting, +3 Countersquall +2 Bedlam Reveler
If anyone wanna try this list, usually I never play more than 4 lands and keep the other ones in my hand if I draw some Looting, sometimes I even loot away my 3rd and 4th land if I have to pressure.
I tried FL before, its a lot of fun but can sometimes short against other midrange decks because of the card disadvantage, with Jund being especially tricky since they have so much removal and value.
One card that may have escaped your attention and works with this gameplan is Darkblast. It hits a lot of turn 1 and even 2 plays like BOP, Hierarch, Confidant, Lavamancer, Steel Overseer, most elves, cursecatchers, silvergills and so on. And then on turn 2 you dredge 3 and voila, still good for your turn 2 fatty while having interacted! Especially brutal against elves, affinity, and merfolk.
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Manabase question! Is there any consensus regarding the distribution of red and black sources in our deck? In my tarnless 19 lander list I'm running the following:
In my opinion, the question comes down to which lands are best openers (Blood Crypt is often unkeepable if it is the single land in our hand, but then again fixes our colors when needed) and how to operate our manabase when we don't see our fastlands (hence my hesitation in cutting the 2nd Steam Vents). I'll probably try the 2 Canals + 1 Shores split, even though I can hardly complain of the 3 UR fastlands as my fetchlands are quite black-centric.
Any thoughts?
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Modern: BUR Grixis Death's Shadow/Control BUR & WBC Eldrazi & Taxes WBC
EDH: UG Edric, Spymaster of Goodstuff UG
I run 2 Blood Moon in the sideboard, and drawing a basic Mountain is awful. I refer to The Fake Slim Shady's excellent post here. I've pretty much copied his decklist since it was the most streamlined, and mine is personal preference vs his, especially since a lot of the sideboard cards are heavy on the black costs.
Only real change you'll notice is I switched out a Bluff for a Darkslick shores, as I think that 3 "Volcanic Island" and 1 "Underground Sea" is really great for our deck. We're so land light anyway that these lands almost always come into play untapped and I'm elated to have multiples in my opening hands.
Thanks for the comments, guys! So I guess it's worth taking notes on your metagame to decide if it is safe to cut the mountain for an additional fastland, right? Red flags would be only ghost quarters or should I also be afraid of Fulminator Mages hiding in Jund's sideboard? Regardless of this option, do you guys recommend the 2nd Grave over the additional Vents? Is one Vents and one Crypt enough fetchable red sources?
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Modern: BUR Grixis Death's Shadow/Control BUR & WBC Eldrazi & Taxes WBC
EDH: UG Edric, Spymaster of Goodstuff UG
4. Dredge is as bad as it gets, and definitely our worst matchup. I don't like having any dedicated hate cards for them, since they are usually kinda narrow (I see myself playing anything between 0 and 3 copies of surgicals in board, if Dredge is a real factor in your metagame, but it's hardly present here and my sb is stacked right now) - just flip your delvers ASAP and hope for the best.
If you start to see more Dredge in your area or decide to go to a bigger event, try to fit a pair of Surgicals into the side. Gutting them of Amalgams makes winning much easier. The other hate cards available are too narrow and ineffective IMO.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Hey Sonnenrad, thanks for mentioning me and for your kind words! I can definitely appreciate your change, I just feel like anything less than 14 red sources doesn't bode well for our t1 bolts and bolt-snap-bolts later in game. Plus, you aren't running mountain, so going shores -> mountain isn't possible, while canal -> swamp is a perfect opening, especially against aggressive strategies. If your list incorporates discard or any other black t1 plays, then I can totally get behind your change. Otherwise, I'd suggest switching 2nd Watery Grave for another Steam Vents.
Cheers,
TFSS
You're welcome - it's the least I can do considering I've had the most success with your particular list over all the others. I've been doing some testing with more black in the build (discard, even Liliana, the Last Hope mainboarded) just to get some different ideas going. I do have a slight feeling that I'm going to end up moving back more to your original build in any case, haha
So I will slowly start building this deck, but I can't afford the Scalding Tarns. So I was wondering if anyone can help me with the manabase? Or is it just bad/terrible/impossible playing a Tarn-less Delver deck?
Tested the manabase in a couple of games. The manabase honestly didn't look so bad, but I would like some feedback before buying into this deck! Any criticism would be appreciated.
My mana is similar but I'm not a fan of 4 bloodstained mires just because blue is more essential. I decided to gamble with a couple of sulfur falls. But I play a lot of burn so most options that avoid the extra self hurt help.
I honestly wouldn't use Leylines over Surgical Extraction, and wouldn't bring them in for the mirror. I also run Overturf's list, and I think we're advantaged in the mirror by the nature of being a more controlling build. We have more counter magic and can leverage Snapcaster to greater advantage. Just cut Delvers post-board in favor of more counters and assume the control role.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with so much artifact hate, especially since Affinity is already a decent matchup. I think that against dredge and other GY decks in general, 2 Surgical Extraction is fine and then Crypt Incursion just might be a good option in general.
On the other hand, the Grixis Control list was an Overturf style list, except he eschews delvers for mainboard Ancestral Vision. Ironically, I almost wonder if he'd been better served by having 4x Delver of Secrets in the sideboard since in the finals he just got run over, whereas if some of those Visions had been Delvers he could have hit for a lot of damage.
young pyro comes out against so many decks that you'll feel dumb for adding it mainboard in the first place. out against every fast deck. not good against bolt decks.
why do pple play it ? no one knows
I think the same, but sometimes it wins the match alone if there are no answer to him in few turns. Before stop playing the pyro version I used to play just two of them cause 3 are maybe too much!
Young pyro feels a lot like our version of pack rat. Sometimes its absolutely horrible and feels like a weak link; some days it'll just be your MVP and win games by itself.
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I watched the vlog after the games with him. A couple of mistakes from my side, but the matchup is so good I wasn't punished luckily. I did feel a bit sorry for him, this deck is so brutal against Affinity!
rothgar13, I'll try a split of Rakdos Charm and Surgical soon and report back how they are. I did put two charms along with three Surgicals in my SB a few weeks ago for my LGS, but nobody plays dredge there so I couldn't tell if they were good or not.
My reasoning for Cage over Surgical/Charm at the moment is you need a SB card in your opening hand anyway to beat them, or at least that's from my games so far. Surgical is only good enough if you have it on time to snipe some Amalgams, Ghasts or Narcos and in that case Cage is just a better card as it stops all of the threats from coming out of the yard. I'm going to be proxying up dredge to play vs some friends this weekend, hopefully we can come up with a good plan. I realise that Cage stops Surgical/Snap, but I side out the playset of Snapcasters when bringing in the cages.
Another option is Leylines. I'm just put off by the need to mull to them as playing it T4 is obviously much too slow.
I do like the idea of Rakdos Charm to their dome though, it's not an approach I'd considered. Go full on burn and try to race them with it as a 'finisher'. I'll try this too
Played a few more leagues yesterday, 4-1, 4-1 and a 3-2. But I was a bit tired a played poorly in some matches.
I feel like this deck is in a great position if the dredge matchup can be worked out. Cages are extreme, but the matchup is that bad we need a real haymaker.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/5atppc/grixis_delver_primer/
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
I tried FL before, its a lot of fun but can sometimes short against other midrange decks because of the card disadvantage, with Jund being especially tricky since they have so much removal and value.
One card that may have escaped your attention and works with this gameplan is Darkblast. It hits a lot of turn 1 and even 2 plays like BOP, Hierarch, Confidant, Lavamancer, Steel Overseer, most elves, cursecatchers, silvergills and so on. And then on turn 2 you dredge 3 and voila, still good for your turn 2 fatty while having interacted! Especially brutal against elves, affinity, and merfolk.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Manabase question! Is there any consensus regarding the distribution of red and black sources in our deck? In my tarnless 19 lander list I'm running the following:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Spirebluff Canal
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
There are many interesting options for subtle change, among them: -1 Blood Crypt for the 2nd Watery Grave, -1 Steam Vents for the 2nd Watery Grave, -1 Spirebluff Canal for a singleton Darkslick Shores.
In my opinion, the question comes down to which lands are best openers (Blood Crypt is often unkeepable if it is the single land in our hand, but then again fixes our colors when needed) and how to operate our manabase when we don't see our fastlands (hence my hesitation in cutting the 2nd Steam Vents). I'll probably try the 2 Canals + 1 Shores split, even though I can hardly complain of the 3 UR fastlands as my fetchlands are quite black-centric.
Any thoughts?
BUR Grixis Death's Shadow/Control BUR & WBC Eldrazi & Taxes WBC
EDH:
UG Edric, Spymaster of Goodstuff UG
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Spirebluff Canal
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
2 Island
1 Swamp
I run 2 Blood Moon in the sideboard, and drawing a basic Mountain is awful. I refer to The Fake Slim Shady's excellent post here. I've pretty much copied his decklist since it was the most streamlined, and mine is personal preference vs his, especially since a lot of the sideboard cards are heavy on the black costs.
His manabase was as follows:
4 Spirebluff Canal
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Watery Grave
1 Swamp
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Steam Vents
Only real change you'll notice is I switched out a Bluff for a Darkslick shores, as I think that 3 "Volcanic Island" and 1 "Underground Sea" is really great for our deck. We're so land light anyway that these lands almost always come into play untapped and I'm elated to have multiples in my opening hands.
Thanks for the comments, guys! So I guess it's worth taking notes on your metagame to decide if it is safe to cut the mountain for an additional fastland, right? Red flags would be only ghost quarters or should I also be afraid of Fulminator Mages hiding in Jund's sideboard? Regardless of this option, do you guys recommend the 2nd Grave over the additional Vents? Is one Vents and one Crypt enough fetchable red sources?
BUR Grixis Death's Shadow/Control BUR & WBC Eldrazi & Taxes WBC
EDH:
UG Edric, Spymaster of Goodstuff UG
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
You're welcome - it's the least I can do considering I've had the most success with your particular list over all the others. I've been doing some testing with more black in the build (discard, even Liliana, the Last Hope mainboarded) just to get some different ideas going. I do have a slight feeling that I'm going to end up moving back more to your original build in any case, haha
Here is the list I'm currently trying:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
Instants (24)
1 Dismember
1 Kolaghan’s Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
1 Collective Brutality
4 Spell Snare
4 Terminate
4 Thought Scour
1 Remand
4 Serum Visions
Lands (20)
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Spirebluff Canal
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
Tested the manabase in a couple of games. The manabase honestly didn't look so bad, but I would like some feedback before buying into this deck! Any criticism would be appreciated.
Some notable inclusions
Mainboarded:
1 Forked Bolt
Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction (scared of dredge, no doubt)
1 Go For the Throat
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Kolaghan's Command
I'm not sure I entirely agree with so much artifact hate, especially since Affinity is already a decent matchup. I think that against dredge and other GY decks in general, 2 Surgical Extraction is fine and then Crypt Incursion just might be a good option in general.
On the other hand, the Grixis Control list was an Overturf style list, except he eschews delvers for mainboard Ancestral Vision. Ironically, I almost wonder if he'd been better served by having 4x Delver of Secrets in the sideboard since in the finals he just got run over, whereas if some of those Visions had been Delvers he could have hit for a lot of damage.
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Serum Visions
2 Countersquall
4 Cryptic Command
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
3 Terminate
4 Thought Scour
1 Blood Crypt
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Spirebluff Canal
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Damnation
2 Dispel
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Sun Droplet
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
3 Mana Leak
3 Terminate
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Spell Snare
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Electrolyze
1 Collective Brutality
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
4 Polluted Delta
1 Darkslick Shores
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Dispel
3 Countersquall
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Izzet Staticaster
Suggestions are welcome , especially in sideboard
Young pyro feels a lot like our version of pack rat. Sometimes its absolutely horrible and feels like a weak link; some days it'll just be your MVP and win games by itself.
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