Ok, thank you. I just never hear that card mentioned so I feared there was some downside I didn't notice. I tend to overlook things relatively often.
A couple more things before I gallop into the sunset: how does this deck perform vs Zoo and Little Kid Abzan?
Edit: Reread the matchups on page 1, found them both. classic example of me overlooking things.
Ignore me as I valiantly ride my monstrous insectile steed into the setting sun.
I can answer, and give a little more detail for Zoo (Naya), as I regularly play against one. I'd say we're about 50-50, with the greatest annoyances being Lightning Helix, Knight of the Reliquary and Loxodon Smiter. Naya Zoos may carry some or all of these. I'm not naming Goyf because he's a threat in any deck with green.
Tips:
1. Saving your counterspells for the right thing is really important. I've found that I'm more likely to win if I let a goyf resolve mid-late game, because chances are he's baiting my counterspell so he can resolve a Lightning Helix, which will put him 1 turn further from death, which between aggro and us, is a game-decider. It may mean your Delver has to swing one extra time, and he might draw a Path to Exile.
2. Speaking of Path to Exile, its not all that important to "save the queen" from this particular removal during the early game. I've found that when racing in the early stages or seeking to stabilize, it's actually alright to let the Zoo pilot turn your Delver into a basic land. I then save that counter for something important on T3, like Knight, Scooze, or Smiter. It puts you ahead where you should have been behind, and you're at Snap-Kommand mana a full turn ahead.
3. Since I brought up Kommand, try to avoid using the Discard mode against a Zoo player (or any GW) unless you're positive this guy doesn't run Smiter. Lesson learnt. Now remember it.
4. Probe early and make full use of the information. Depending on what ratio of burn/creatures he has in his hand, you'll know how to react accordingly. Without this information, you're striking a tricky balance between control and aggro. With it, you'll know its safe to tap out for Pyromancer this turn, or its better to draw-go for now so he doesn't have 3 animals resolve the next.
5. Shrinking his Goyf at instant speed then blocking to kill it, by casting Murderous Cut on another threat, is an awesome move. Its not something people think about, but you definitely should keep this interaction in mind.
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Well, quick report on deck building, Fulminator Mage is outstanding against Tron! Managed to get the 2 post board wins thanks to him destroying a land after he used Expedition Map to get his 3rd piece of tron, and nailing down the right part of the puzzle he didn't have at instant speed cleared the way for gurmag and tasigur to win. Not to mention he also got to hit twice the third game, so he just proved himself worthy of the land destruction spot in my SB. Also decided to remove Rough // tumble and go back to Izzet Staticaster due to the overwhelming amount of affinity i have been seeing. Also testing Self-Inflicted Wound as well since it is an Edict for GW that also deals damage to the player. It seems really good against Bogles and other GW decks, and banking on it being decent against Abzan as well. Need some testing against that matchup to see how it plays out.
This is the Current SB i am using:
As far as MD is concerned, not too much has changed, just removed the Rise // Fall for Electrolyze as more answers to affinity and helping against Lingering Souls, as well as just having more burn MD.
@Permanence fulminator mage, from my testing, is more aggressive than molten rain. While your opponent can play around blood moon, molten rain will be alright, but not deal damage. Fulminator mage is another creature in the list, where he can block something and sac to destroy a land since we are more of a midrange deck nowadays. I plan on bringing back the Rise // fall soon, but with affinity doing its thing, electrolyze is a must. Probably will put it back within the week though since it is such a good card, but i expect affinity for tonights modern night.
EDIT: Totally forgot, the biggest reason why i love the mage over molten rain is due to the fact that he can destroy lands at instant speed. Against decks like scapeshift or tron where they find their lands through spells/abilities, you can mage the important lands in response so they get set back even further. With molten rain only at sorcery, its easier for them to play around and grab the proper land.
Contrary to what Redvader said, I feel Rain is actually the more aggressive of the 2 cards, with Fulminator being better at the control role. The 2 damage makes that clear which card is pushing for a quicker finish, along with the fact that it flips delver, which is going to be one of my points below. I'm coming from the angle that we don't want to reach the point where the opponent is trying to get his last piece- he should be struggling at every stage while an early threat clocks him. I've found our best chance at winning is the clock, instead of trying to control the Tron player into midgame.
The rest, of course, depends on variance.
Pros of Molten Rain:
1. Flips Delver. Which is important because we're likely not sideboarding any creatures out, which means bringing Fulminator in to replace Dispel reduces your chances of flipping delver. IMO, it doesn't matter how "small" this % reduction is, its a statistical fact and no amount of debate will resolve whether its "worth" it or not; you'll have to decide on your own.
2. Repeatable with Snapcaster. Now, you can say Fulminator is repeatable with Kommand, but I'd argue that Kommand has the more important role of discard and artifact destruction to fill in this role, especially if you're playing aggressively; Even 2 to the dome may be more relevant in trying to close out the game before O-Stone starts to do its dirty work.
3. Deals 2 damage. Or 10% of the opponent's life total. When playing against Tron, going to the lategame is losing. I've seen matches lost because the Delver player tries to be Grixis Control, which may have some semblence of success until they eventually find their pieces. They have so much redundancy that while we're just slowing them down, an extra 10% push towards the finish line is what we may need to close out the game.
4. Interacts with Young P. This is pretty straightforward. I don't field more than 2 against Tron, but curving from Young P/Probe into Molten on turn 3 is a solid line of play against a Tron on the draw, and gives them a serious clock.
Cons of Molten Rain:
1. Sorcery Speed. As mentioned by Redvader, you can't use this to react to plays on the opponent's turn. This can only be mitigated by using Rain to preemptively destroy Tron lands as soon as they even have 2.
2. Double R cost. No negotiations here- you need 2 red sources, as opposed to the less picky RR/BR/BB requirement for Fulminator. Doesn't hurt that much since we're URb, but a factor nonetheless.
3. Can't become a beater. On the off-chance that the opponent is slow in assembling his combo, the Mage will give him even less time to bounce back. IMO, however, this is a win-more situation.
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As opposed to Marc, here is the case for why Fulminator Mage is the better option, in an open meta:
The card is more flexible than Molten Rain, and the ability to fulfill multiple roles is a premium, just look at the command cycle and charms. I played against Jund today, and won 2-0, game 2 thanks to fulminator mage pulling one out. Jund was doing jund's thing and had me at 4 life, with a 5/6 goyf and a Raging Ravine in play. My side was wiped clean thanks to bolts and terminates. The timely fulminator mage draw saved me because it was able to block goyf and destroy the ravine. This move drew me into serum visions which later got me to snap and command, winning the game. So the hidden ability here was the ability to "gain life" and act as a fog for turn while removing threats. As a top deck late game against the midrange decks, fulminator mage outclasses molten rain every day, unless they are low on life where you can burn them out from there, but i digress. Against tron, I personally feel that we are favored here, so the decision as to whether you want rain or mage is personal preference here: both fulfill a similar role, but mage is more flexible. Also with the current MTGO metagame, living end is EVERYWHERE alongside affinity, and mage does great work here since he can be used against our opponents and punishes the living end combo. While he does does not flip delver, the deck still runs about 26 spells post board against tron, removing 2 spells for mage has not, from my findings, affect the amount of times delver has flipped. Also, while he does not activate young pyromancer's ability to flood the board, instant speed land destruction on a body has proven to be worth more than a 1/1 or even 2 1/1s if you would snap back molten rain. Same amount of power on board, less punishment on your side for pyroclasm.
Along the Kolaghan's command side of things, destroying artifacts is indeed important, but the important artifacts to hit come out before kommand is available, or when they do come out its too late to destroy them due to their mana. I found that shocking + discard or shock + reanimate to be the best plays, since we are trying to be aggressive. Also having multiple nice targets for Kommand is better than more targets for snap. Snap already plays such a huge role in the deck, reusing old spells where if i had more than 4 snapcaster mage (ahem Jace, Vryn's Prodigy) I would play molten rain since we more often need to bolt + snap + bolt or kommand + snpacaster + kommand + another effect, but Kommand's targets are rather limited in certain matches. forcing shock plus gain another threat that could destroy another land at instant speed is too much value to ignore.
Like the primer says we are an aggressive, midrange deck that can assume the control role in many matchups. Fulminator mage fits this list better than molten rain, which is better for decks like burn, or geist based jeskai lists. Every card in the deck should be able to fit this role. Delver fits this role because it is a cheap, aggressive flyer who is tough to block, which is helpful in a grindfest deck. Young pyromancer has the ability to go wide when a board is gummed up. Tasigur/Gurmag angler are our goyfs, and one draws cards. Snapcaster mage buys back our important spells, gaining value like no other.
Alright, now that is all done with, tournament report!
Went 4-0 in a rather small tournament, but boy was my call for affinity spot on. 2 of my matches were affinity, and electrolyze was a beating, but I did miss Rise // Fall a lot in the grind matches later on, so its getting its spot back.
R1 Affinity
G1 affinity gets the nut draw, having 2 ravagers in turn 2, and I didn't have enough removal to deal with the counters moving everywhere.
G2 Hurkyl's Recall proving its worth again, wiping a rather clogged board with 2 etched champion in play and on our side a tasigur and gurmag angler. Recall destroyed the 3 gimmervoids in play, preventing etched champion from seeing the board again.
G3 Delver turn 1 with removal heavy hand + spell pierce to stop galvanic blast. Easy win
R2 Affinity
G1 removal heavy hand + thought scour into tasigur. Pretty much G3 but with a tasigur instead of delver. Win
G2 Electrolyze dealing with the signal pest and steel overseer pretty much wrecked his plan, and kommand prevented him from drawing good cards after turn 5. Snapcaster mage swings for win.
R3 Jund
G1 Managed to burn him out, he did jund's thing by removing my snapcaster t1, played goyf turn 2, and attempted to cast liliana, but fortunately, young pyro + spell pierce did work. Terminate clearing the way, tokens get the win for g1 for dealing 13 damage until getting malestrom pulsed away. Bolt for finish
G2 See above for the work Fulminator mage did.
R4 Burn
G1 bad opening hand vs burn, got wrecked. Wouldnt want to be burned again. 1/10
G2 T2 Tasigur + Vampiric link T3 gained too much life and path got dispel'ed. win here
G3 Vampiric link puts in work again on Eidolon of the great revel, and opponent decides to bolt off his eidolon late game after getting angry over all the life i was gaining from his spells after counter magic did his thing. young pyro deals the win with the tokens.
Overall the list performed well, only change is like i said, back to rise // fall over electrolyze. I missed my hymn to tourach
I'm pleased to see that Vampiric Link is pulling its weight against burn, I recently dropped 2 Dragon's Claws from my sideboard for them. Parking one on a Eidolon is such an awesome feeling.
With regards to Fulminator, that Jund move must have felt awesome and I can certainly see the case for Fulminator being a more flexible card. Of course, everything depends on what you've drawn and what's already in your graveyard; drawing a snap while a previously dropped/used rain is in the graveyard would have achieved the same outcome.
I'm curious as to why you say Fulminator punishes Living End. Yes, you get him back to destroy 1 more land or block. But if the opponent is resolving Living End, I highly doubt a 2/2 body or destroying 1 land is going to turn the game around. I would think getting a Snapcater back for Kommanding back another Snap/Pyro or simply terminating one of the bigger threats would be more impactful.
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I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I'd like to propose Dark Confidant as something to consider in Grixis Delver. I know it's a huge non-bo with Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Gurmag Angler, but I would posit that those guys are better suited to a midrange style beats gameplan than traditional tempo. With Bob, we can cut our curve down, and actually afford to use tools like Disrupting Shoal, which I feel is under-utilized in Modern. Jordan Boisvert wrote a very good article on this here, and I've basically taken the same list (with some modifications in the mana base and sideboard, as I am not a believer in Day's Undoing) out for a whirl, and it's done fantastically well. Any thoughts?
I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I'd like to propose Dark Confidant as something to consider in Grixis Delver. I know it's a huge non-bo with Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Gurmag Angler, but I would posit that those guys are better suited to a midrange style beats gameplan than traditional tempo. With Bob, we can cut our curve down, and actually afford to use tools like Disrupting Shoal, which I feel is under-utilized in Modern. Jordan Boisvert wrote a very good article on this here, and I've basically taken the same list (with some modifications in the mana base and sideboard, as I am not a believer in Day's Undoing) out for a whirl, and it's done fantastically well. Any thoughts?
It has been talked about quite a bit in the older thread. We don't really have any ways to gain life and he is susceptible to the same things our other threats are so general consensus has been that zombie fish and tasigoyf are a different, but superior plan.
I don't know if I agree with that, to be honest with you. Most sites that follow the Modern metagame have Grixis Delver on the back half of Tier 2 and slipping, and I think it's in large part because Grixis Control does the "midrange beats with Delve creatures and lots of counters/removal backing them up" thing better (thanks to having more land drops), and Delver of Secrets really wants to be in an aggressive and streamlined shell, which is something that a deck that relies on cards like Kolaghan's Command and Snapcaster Mage cannot truly be. Plus, I can't overstate how good Bob + Disrupting Shoal has been. I actually was able to take game after game from a Bogles deck (typically a nightmare matchup for Delver) just yesterday, because I was Shoaling their Bogles on T1, which bought me the time to interact with their cards coming in, as opposed to having to deal with them hitting the field (which we all know we can't do). My Burn matchup is probably awful, but this is a Delver deck - my Burn matchup will always be awful. I think it needs to be revisited.
@Rothgar13 The more tempo based grixis delver deck has been discussed here earlier a few pages back. I find the list interesting, but I disagree about it being the better deck. The tempo variant just doesn't have enough power/gameplan against GBx decks, which this variant has been doing phenomenal against. The benefits I have found tend to be similar to how abzan and jund are with each other and the more tempo based vs the more midranged based. The decks that grixis delver is good against tend to be more in favor while decks that are not in our favor are lose more. Kolaghan's command + snapcaster mage is a synergy that we just cannot ignore if we want to win against the grind decks. Also, we are currently in the offseason of modern, the "best" decks right now are the more linear based decks because people are trying to grind out free wins online. Also, the difference between Tier 1 and tier 2 is simply which is being played more. Viable archetypes are all able to do well in the proper hands. So right now, I personally don't trust the current "tier" list since there is no major events to back it up. Also, by burn matchup is not abysmal. Game 1 its tough, but game 2 and 3 I feel in control and have the ability to set the pace, especially against the nacatl version. While it can be revisited, I, alongside others, believe the grindier version is better than the more tempo version.
@MarcWizard The argument is that against living end, we aren't as punished as we would be against the actual combo by having fulminator mage. They run little removal, so being able to have the mage block and sac for a turn to prevent some damage is a legit play for certain. We have a tough time grinding through them if we cannot counter living end or surgical extraction, so anything that helps there is useful.
I don't actually have the number of matches against B/G/X with the tempo variant to determine whether the matchup is any better or worse (I only recently took the plunge), so that's definitely something to consider for me. I'll try to test it and see. However, my experience with the matchup using the more midrange-oriented list wasn't exactly positive. I felt like I was playing a more aggressive version of their gameplan, but it usually didn't quite work out, because topdecking a Tarmogoyf after both sides have ground each other into the dirt tends to be a game-winner, and by my understanding, our manabase tends to be a bit more painful than theirs (plus G has access to lifegain if they truly want it).
I think that making Disrupting Shoal work in any version of the deck should be considered somewhat important, though. Sure, it's card disadvantage when cast in the "free" way, but trading cards for tempo is at the core of what this deck wants to accomplish, is it not? Any thoughts on why we don't see more of this?
After following this thread over the past week or so it seems there is indeed a schism. There is a Grixis Delver build with Dark Confidant and then there is Grixis Delver build with Tasigur / Gurmag Angler. These builds are mutually exclusive. I personally believe that both can (and should) be developed, but the question is whether they should both go in the same thread!
Another observation: we appear to be reaching a point with this deck where trying to describe it with the traditional deck archetypes becomes increasingly futile. While useful for conversation and shorthand, it limits thinking. When I think about my build of the deck, I think of it as 'Fair, Interactive, Non-linear, Proactive'. To me it is just a darn fun deck to pilot.
I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I'd like to propose Dark Confidant as something to consider in Grixis Delver. I know it's a huge non-bo with Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Gurmag Angler, but I would posit that those guys are better suited to a midrange style beats gameplan than traditional tempo. With Bob, we can cut our curve down, and actually afford to use tools like Disrupting Shoal, which I feel is under-utilized in Modern. Jordan Boisvert wrote a very good article on this here, and I've basically taken the same list (with some modifications in the mana base and sideboard, as I am not a believer in Day's Undoing) out for a whirl, and it's done fantastically well. Any thoughts?
Well, if you'd checked out the previous 2 pages on this very thread, you'll know it HAS been discussed, and at great length, and by the very same writer whose name you just mentioned.
You will see arguments for and against, but if you're looking for tournament results, you won't find any. Because anyone who's tried the deck at anything more competitive than a kitchen table will have realized it rolls over and dies to burn and most aggro decks, such as zoo. Some new tech is going to be required before Suicide Grixis Tempo is able to make a splash in the current meta.
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Yep, probably should have skimmed through the pages before I posted my first comment. My bad.
Regarding the rolling over and dying to aggro... It depends. From what I've seen, it matches up well against aggro decks that focus on riding one or two major threats to the promised land (such as Bogles and Infect), and less so against swarms that they can't 1-for-1 into submission (like Affinity, Burn, Elves, Merfolk, and Zoo). I'm open to suggestions on how I can handle these guys without putting my own creatures at risk. My initial thoughts were to pack in the likes of Electrickery and Engineered Explosives, but if anyone else has any ideas, I'll listen.
A couple more things before I gallop into the sunset: how does this deck perform vs Zoo and Little Kid Abzan?
Edit: Reread the matchups on page 1, found them both. classic example of me overlooking things.
Ignore me as I valiantly ride my monstrous insectile steed into the setting sun.
On my tombstone, please write "Now his body fuels the Treasure Cruise"
Or you could Kommand him back...
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Modern:
BURGrixis DelverRUB
URUR DelverRU
URBlue MoonRU
RIPURUR TwinRURIP
Legacy:
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RUBGrixis PyromancerRUB
Commander:
URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
URBJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeRUB
I can answer, and give a little more detail for Zoo (Naya), as I regularly play against one. I'd say we're about 50-50, with the greatest annoyances being Lightning Helix, Knight of the Reliquary and Loxodon Smiter. Naya Zoos may carry some or all of these. I'm not naming Goyf because he's a threat in any deck with green.
Tips:
1. Saving your counterspells for the right thing is really important. I've found that I'm more likely to win if I let a goyf resolve mid-late game, because chances are he's baiting my counterspell so he can resolve a Lightning Helix, which will put him 1 turn further from death, which between aggro and us, is a game-decider. It may mean your Delver has to swing one extra time, and he might draw a Path to Exile.
2. Speaking of Path to Exile, its not all that important to "save the queen" from this particular removal during the early game. I've found that when racing in the early stages or seeking to stabilize, it's actually alright to let the Zoo pilot turn your Delver into a basic land. I then save that counter for something important on T3, like Knight, Scooze, or Smiter. It puts you ahead where you should have been behind, and you're at Snap-Kommand mana a full turn ahead.
3. Since I brought up Kommand, try to avoid using the Discard mode against a Zoo player (or any GW) unless you're positive this guy doesn't run Smiter. Lesson learnt. Now remember it.
4. Probe early and make full use of the information. Depending on what ratio of burn/creatures he has in his hand, you'll know how to react accordingly. Without this information, you're striking a tricky balance between control and aggro. With it, you'll know its safe to tap out for Pyromancer this turn, or its better to draw-go for now so he doesn't have 3 animals resolve the next.
5. Shrinking his Goyf at instant speed then blocking to kill it, by casting Murderous Cut on another threat, is an awesome move. Its not something people think about, but you definitely should keep this interaction in mind.
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This is the Current SB i am using:
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Spellskite
2 Vampiric Link
1 Dismember
2 Dispel
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Self-Inflicted Wound
2 Thoughtseize
As far as MD is concerned, not too much has changed, just removed the Rise // Fall for Electrolyze as more answers to affinity and helping against Lingering Souls, as well as just having more burn MD.
On my tombstone, please write "Now his body fuels the Treasure Cruise"
Or you could Kommand him back...
Check out my Youtube Page for online Magic Content!
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Modern:
BURGrixis DelverRUB
URUR DelverRU
URBlue MoonRU
RIPURUR TwinRURIP
Legacy:
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RUBGrixis PyromancerRUB
Commander:
URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
URBJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeRUB
EDIT: Totally forgot, the biggest reason why i love the mage over molten rain is due to the fact that he can destroy lands at instant speed. Against decks like scapeshift or tron where they find their lands through spells/abilities, you can mage the important lands in response so they get set back even further. With molten rain only at sorcery, its easier for them to play around and grab the proper land.
On my tombstone, please write "Now his body fuels the Treasure Cruise"
Or you could Kommand him back...
Check out my Youtube Page for online Magic Content!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcq-a5rTSNclFCS2o4_lVFw
Modern:
BURGrixis DelverRUB
URUR DelverRU
URBlue MoonRU
RIPURUR TwinRURIP
Legacy:
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RUBGrixis PyromancerRUB
Commander:
URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
URBJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeRUB
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Contrary to what Redvader said, I feel Rain is actually the more aggressive of the 2 cards, with Fulminator being better at the control role. The 2 damage makes that clear which card is pushing for a quicker finish, along with the fact that it flips delver, which is going to be one of my points below. I'm coming from the angle that we don't want to reach the point where the opponent is trying to get his last piece- he should be struggling at every stage while an early threat clocks him. I've found our best chance at winning is the clock, instead of trying to control the Tron player into midgame.
The rest, of course, depends on variance.
Pros of Molten Rain:
1. Flips Delver. Which is important because we're likely not sideboarding any creatures out, which means bringing Fulminator in to replace Dispel reduces your chances of flipping delver. IMO, it doesn't matter how "small" this % reduction is, its a statistical fact and no amount of debate will resolve whether its "worth" it or not; you'll have to decide on your own.
2. Repeatable with Snapcaster. Now, you can say Fulminator is repeatable with Kommand, but I'd argue that Kommand has the more important role of discard and artifact destruction to fill in this role, especially if you're playing aggressively; Even 2 to the dome may be more relevant in trying to close out the game before O-Stone starts to do its dirty work.
3. Deals 2 damage. Or 10% of the opponent's life total. When playing against Tron, going to the lategame is losing. I've seen matches lost because the Delver player tries to be Grixis Control, which may have some semblence of success until they eventually find their pieces. They have so much redundancy that while we're just slowing them down, an extra 10% push towards the finish line is what we may need to close out the game.
4. Interacts with Young P. This is pretty straightforward. I don't field more than 2 against Tron, but curving from Young P/Probe into Molten on turn 3 is a solid line of play against a Tron on the draw, and gives them a serious clock.
Cons of Molten Rain:
1. Sorcery Speed. As mentioned by Redvader, you can't use this to react to plays on the opponent's turn. This can only be mitigated by using Rain to preemptively destroy Tron lands as soon as they even have 2.
2. Double R cost. No negotiations here- you need 2 red sources, as opposed to the less picky RR/BR/BB requirement for Fulminator. Doesn't hurt that much since we're URb, but a factor nonetheless.
3. Can't become a beater. On the off-chance that the opponent is slow in assembling his combo, the Mage will give him even less time to bounce back. IMO, however, this is a win-more situation.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
The card is more flexible than Molten Rain, and the ability to fulfill multiple roles is a premium, just look at the command cycle and charms. I played against Jund today, and won 2-0, game 2 thanks to fulminator mage pulling one out. Jund was doing jund's thing and had me at 4 life, with a 5/6 goyf and a Raging Ravine in play. My side was wiped clean thanks to bolts and terminates. The timely fulminator mage draw saved me because it was able to block goyf and destroy the ravine. This move drew me into serum visions which later got me to snap and command, winning the game. So the hidden ability here was the ability to "gain life" and act as a fog for turn while removing threats. As a top deck late game against the midrange decks, fulminator mage outclasses molten rain every day, unless they are low on life where you can burn them out from there, but i digress. Against tron, I personally feel that we are favored here, so the decision as to whether you want rain or mage is personal preference here: both fulfill a similar role, but mage is more flexible. Also with the current MTGO metagame, living end is EVERYWHERE alongside affinity, and mage does great work here since he can be used against our opponents and punishes the living end combo. While he does does not flip delver, the deck still runs about 26 spells post board against tron, removing 2 spells for mage has not, from my findings, affect the amount of times delver has flipped. Also, while he does not activate young pyromancer's ability to flood the board, instant speed land destruction on a body has proven to be worth more than a 1/1 or even 2 1/1s if you would snap back molten rain. Same amount of power on board, less punishment on your side for pyroclasm.
Along the Kolaghan's command side of things, destroying artifacts is indeed important, but the important artifacts to hit come out before kommand is available, or when they do come out its too late to destroy them due to their mana. I found that shocking + discard or shock + reanimate to be the best plays, since we are trying to be aggressive. Also having multiple nice targets for Kommand is better than more targets for snap. Snap already plays such a huge role in the deck, reusing old spells where if i had more than 4 snapcaster mage (ahem Jace, Vryn's Prodigy) I would play molten rain since we more often need to bolt + snap + bolt or kommand + snpacaster + kommand + another effect, but Kommand's targets are rather limited in certain matches. forcing shock plus gain another threat that could destroy another land at instant speed is too much value to ignore.
Like the primer says we are an aggressive, midrange deck that can assume the control role in many matchups. Fulminator mage fits this list better than molten rain, which is better for decks like burn, or geist based jeskai lists. Every card in the deck should be able to fit this role. Delver fits this role because it is a cheap, aggressive flyer who is tough to block, which is helpful in a grindfest deck. Young pyromancer has the ability to go wide when a board is gummed up. Tasigur/Gurmag angler are our goyfs, and one draws cards. Snapcaster mage buys back our important spells, gaining value like no other.
Alright, now that is all done with, tournament report!
Went 4-0 in a rather small tournament, but boy was my call for affinity spot on. 2 of my matches were affinity, and electrolyze was a beating, but I did miss Rise // Fall a lot in the grind matches later on, so its getting its spot back.
R1 Affinity
G1 affinity gets the nut draw, having 2 ravagers in turn 2, and I didn't have enough removal to deal with the counters moving everywhere.
G2 Hurkyl's Recall proving its worth again, wiping a rather clogged board with 2 etched champion in play and on our side a tasigur and gurmag angler. Recall destroyed the 3 gimmervoids in play, preventing etched champion from seeing the board again.
G3 Delver turn 1 with removal heavy hand + spell pierce to stop galvanic blast. Easy win
R2 Affinity
G1 removal heavy hand + thought scour into tasigur. Pretty much G3 but with a tasigur instead of delver. Win
G2 Electrolyze dealing with the signal pest and steel overseer pretty much wrecked his plan, and kommand prevented him from drawing good cards after turn 5. Snapcaster mage swings for win.
R3 Jund
G1 Managed to burn him out, he did jund's thing by removing my snapcaster t1, played goyf turn 2, and attempted to cast liliana, but fortunately, young pyro + spell pierce did work. Terminate clearing the way, tokens get the win for g1 for dealing 13 damage until getting malestrom pulsed away. Bolt for finish
G2 See above for the work Fulminator mage did.
R4 Burn
G1 bad opening hand vs burn, got wrecked. Wouldnt want to be burned again. 1/10
G2 T2 Tasigur + Vampiric link T3 gained too much life and path got dispel'ed. win here
G3 Vampiric link puts in work again on Eidolon of the great revel, and opponent decides to bolt off his eidolon late game after getting angry over all the life i was gaining from his spells after counter magic did his thing. young pyro deals the win with the tokens.
Overall the list performed well, only change is like i said, back to rise // fall over electrolyze. I missed my hymn to tourach
On my tombstone, please write "Now his body fuels the Treasure Cruise"
Or you could Kommand him back...
Check out my Youtube Page for online Magic Content!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcq-a5rTSNclFCS2o4_lVFw
Modern:
BURGrixis DelverRUB
URUR DelverRU
URBlue MoonRU
RIPURUR TwinRURIP
Legacy:
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RUBGrixis PyromancerRUB
Commander:
URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
URBJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeRUB
I'm pleased to see that Vampiric Link is pulling its weight against burn, I recently dropped 2 Dragon's Claws from my sideboard for them. Parking one on a Eidolon is such an awesome feeling.
With regards to Fulminator, that Jund move must have felt awesome and I can certainly see the case for Fulminator being a more flexible card. Of course, everything depends on what you've drawn and what's already in your graveyard; drawing a snap while a previously dropped/used rain is in the graveyard would have achieved the same outcome.
I'm curious as to why you say Fulminator punishes Living End. Yes, you get him back to destroy 1 more land or block. But if the opponent is resolving Living End, I highly doubt a 2/2 body or destroying 1 land is going to turn the game around. I would think getting a Snapcater back for Kommanding back another Snap/Pyro or simply terminating one of the bigger threats would be more impactful.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
RBGW Suicide Zoo
Legacy
RUG Canadian Threshold
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
It has been talked about quite a bit in the older thread. We don't really have any ways to gain life and he is susceptible to the same things our other threats are so general consensus has been that zombie fish and tasigoyf are a different, but superior plan.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
@MarcWizard The argument is that against living end, we aren't as punished as we would be against the actual combo by having fulminator mage. They run little removal, so being able to have the mage block and sac for a turn to prevent some damage is a legit play for certain. We have a tough time grinding through them if we cannot counter living end or surgical extraction, so anything that helps there is useful.
On my tombstone, please write "Now his body fuels the Treasure Cruise"
Or you could Kommand him back...
Check out my Youtube Page for online Magic Content!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcq-a5rTSNclFCS2o4_lVFw
Modern:
BURGrixis DelverRUB
URUR DelverRU
URBlue MoonRU
RIPURUR TwinRURIP
Legacy:
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RUBGrixis PyromancerRUB
Commander:
URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
URBJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeRUB
I think that making Disrupting Shoal work in any version of the deck should be considered somewhat important, though. Sure, it's card disadvantage when cast in the "free" way, but trading cards for tempo is at the core of what this deck wants to accomplish, is it not? Any thoughts on why we don't see more of this?
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Another observation: we appear to be reaching a point with this deck where trying to describe it with the traditional deck archetypes becomes increasingly futile. While useful for conversation and shorthand, it limits thinking. When I think about my build of the deck, I think of it as 'Fair, Interactive, Non-linear, Proactive'. To me it is just a darn fun deck to pilot.
Well, if you'd checked out the previous 2 pages on this very thread, you'll know it HAS been discussed, and at great length, and by the very same writer whose name you just mentioned.
You will see arguments for and against, but if you're looking for tournament results, you won't find any. Because anyone who's tried the deck at anything more competitive than a kitchen table will have realized it rolls over and dies to burn and most aggro decks, such as zoo. Some new tech is going to be required before Suicide Grixis Tempo is able to make a splash in the current meta.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Regarding the rolling over and dying to aggro... It depends. From what I've seen, it matches up well against aggro decks that focus on riding one or two major threats to the promised land (such as Bogles and Infect), and less so against swarms that they can't 1-for-1 into submission (like Affinity, Burn, Elves, Merfolk, and Zoo). I'm open to suggestions on how I can handle these guys without putting my own creatures at risk. My initial thoughts were to pack in the likes of Electrickery and Engineered Explosives, but if anyone else has any ideas, I'll listen.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers: