I had rakdos charm, but as I only boarded it in against a few MUs and those were either rare (lantern, merfolk, dredge, living end) or not particularly important in the board (company) it has since been dropped for a sudden shock. Speaking of, can anyone recommend another way to help against infect? Currently I'm bringing in stratocaster, site, moon, and shock.
Probably we got our MB card, terminate backed with some counter spell against their infect+Vine. Just beware some spellskite. Best sb would be engineered explosive i would say.
Really? I've brought it in before and it spectacularly underwhelmed. They won't play into an on-board trick, plus it doesn't touch inkmoth.
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." --Jaya Ballard
@Johnny_Tempel
I'll give it a whirl. Also, do truths reeeaaallly work out okay? We take alot of damage already and adding a few more+tapping out for a turn doesn't seem like a good idea. I do recommend visions though, but not the whole 4 AV in, 4 Delver out bs some people have been floating. I only run 2 in the board and those are usually for probes, peezy, or removal depending on MU. Cutting delvers is just a bad idea, as we can't out-control those decks (and as a random tangent, AV can actually be good against lantern, it lets you pump their hand size for bridge on your turn. Same for wheel in some of the breach/vengeance lists)
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." --Jaya Ballard
@Johnny_Tempel
I'll give it a whirl. Also, do truths reeeaaallly work out okay? We take alot of damage already and adding a few more+tapping out for a turn doesn't seem like a good idea. I do recommend visions though, but not the whole 4 AV in, 4 Delver out bs some people have been floating. I only run 2 in the board and those are usually for probes, peezy, or removal depending on MU. Cutting delvers is just a bad idea, as we can't out-control those decks (and as a random tangent, AV can actually be good against lantern, it lets you pump their hand size for bridge on your turn. Same for wheel in some of the breach/vengeance lists)
You could afford to use less harsh words than "bs", I'm sure.
After all, this strategy enabled Xavier Lau to take WMCQ Singapore, and Ryan Overturf's now famous win. Siding out 4 delvers is exactly what you want to do against lightning bolt and abrupt decay decks, because your card quality is lower than their and your need answers that can deal with theirs while landing threats that at least demand a path or terminate, so the answers that can hit your threats get reduced to 4/60 rather than 8/60 to 10/60. I still remove all delvers and board in AVs against such decks, and it still works. If your meta doesn't have many jund or nahiri decks, you can afford to keep them in.
Painful Truths is a painful alternative, but necessary for any deck wanting to draw 3 in this meta. The only thing more painful than bolting yourself is drawing an AV when struggling to win a topdeck war.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I had rakdos charm, but as I only boarded it in against a few MUs and those were either rare (lantern, merfolk, dredge, living end) or not particularly important in the board (company) it has since been dropped for a sudden shock. Speaking of, can anyone recommend another way to help against infect? Currently I'm bringing in stratocaster, site, moon, and shock.
Probably we got our MB card, terminate backed with some counter spell against their infect+Vine. Just beware some spellskite. Best sb would be engineered explosive i would say.
Really? I've brought it in before and it spectacularly underwhelmed. They won't play into an on-board trick, plus it doesn't touch inkmoth.
It like playing mind game with infect player. I have done by casting EE for 0 mana awaiting his inkmoth to be creaturelize. It great too putting x=1 to burst hierarch and elf
I had rakdos charm, but as I only boarded it in against a few MUs and those were either rare (lantern, merfolk, dredge, living end) or not particularly important in the board (company) it has since been dropped for a sudden shock. Speaking of, can anyone recommend another way to help against infect? Currently I'm bringing in stratocaster, site, moon, and shock.
Probably we got our MB card, terminate backed with some counter spell against their infect+Vine. Just beware some spellskite. Best sb would be engineered explosive i would say.
Really? I've brought it in before and it spectacularly underwhelmed. They won't play into an on-board trick, plus it doesn't touch inkmoth.
It like playing mind game with infect player. I have done by casting EE for 0 mana awaiting his inkmoth to be creaturelize. It great too putting x=1 to burst hierarch and elf
I agree EE is a good tech and it buys us time since the Infect player will try to not go all-in opening themselves up to a blowout, but setting it to 0 just shows at least one of the two players is a bad player. It can't destroy Inkmoth, and so either the infect player doesn't know that and play around a do-nothing card, or the Delver player just made a huge mistake (or maybe tried to outsmart the other player and failed).
Went 3-1 at my LGS last night. Still fairly new to playing the deck after playing Jund and Infect for years so enjoying tweaking things.
The MD I'm between the one Young Pyromancer and a third Gurmag Angler, the fish has been consistently great. A Forked Bolt is going to be switched with a Collective Brutality when I get one. The Dispel might become a third Spell Snare.
2-0 vs Lantern with Thopter Sword combo. Not much to say, super fast clock game one then AV, K Commands and Snapcasters did work game two.
2-1 vs Esper control. Game one he stumbled a turn on his fourth land drop so couldn't cast verdict which let me get a large swing in and bolt him out. Game two I got Collonaded, foolishly took out all Terminates and didn't draw any Molten Rains. Game three AV let me extend fairly easily onto the board and he ran out of removal.
2-0 vs RG Ponza w/Madcap Experiment. Game one I bolted the bird and he didn't do much. Game two I had turn one Delver, he stone rained, I followed up with Scour into Tasigur followed by two Anglers the following turns. Finks, Baloth and Thragtusk weren't close to enough.
0-2 vs Boggles. Fack this deck, that is all. I only have one EE at the moment, ideally I'd play two or three which could help. Are there any good SB cards available to us that aren't super narrow (Hibernation falls under that)? Tribue to Hunger or Devour Flesh, maybe? But still a bit too narrow for my liking. Languish is another thought.
This is what I was running. The G Cage obviously shouldn't be there, but I was short on GY hate and the shop didn't have Crypt Incursions. It should be noted that the SB is far from ideal, but I'm going through a list of things and trying them out to see how they feel in the deck.
it feels like you're in between the Overturf build and the more recent Pyro+probe build. I don't thin 1 pyro 2 probe is a good compromise. Either go all-in on pyro (which I would recommand in a faster meta like MTGO) or Overturf if you prefer a more controlling deck. I don't like dispel main. It is not very flexible, a 3rd spell snare is way better. Spell pierce if you really like to counter removal. Dreadbore should be a terminate or murderous cut, unless you face lots of Nahiri in your meta. It's good against Jund (doesn't kill ravine though) and you lose a lot of % points against Infect or in general creature decks by chosing sorcery speed.
About boggles you should most likely ignore the MU unless a regular at your lgs plays it. It's fairly narrow. 2 EE is a must I'd say (great against boggles, but a lot of decks to), more flexible than wraths or edicts. You don't really want languish in a delver+YP deck...and even if you go the overturf plan of grixis control post side, I think Anger of the gods is a better choice.Lost legacy is 3 mana sorcery and really narrow (you don't need that to beat Ad nauseam or Grishoalbrand. If you're siding it in against other decks, you're most likely doing it wrong and oversiding). Also don't run BB cards if you have blood moon in the side
Grixis delver is a very flexible deck and list you play and your SB should really depend on what you expect (but don't stay in between builds). I would cut at least a flooded strand or for an additional spirebluff canal, especially as you don't run tarns. Strand is not amazing in the deck and doesn't get blood crypt (fetching basic island is awkward with lots of RB cards). Don't really like blood moons+molten rain, that's a lot of non basic hate. I would also add a vandalblast, especially as you don't have a 2nd EE. Never underestimate affinity, even if you run K-command
it feels like you're in between the Overturf build and the more recent Pyro+probe build. I don't thin 1 pyro 2 probe is a good compromise. Either go all-in on pyro (which I would recommand in a faster meta like MTGO) or Overturf if you prefer a more controlling deck. I don't like dispel main. It is not very flexible, a 3rd spell snare is way better. Spell pierce if you really like to counter removal. Dreadbore should be a terminate or murderous cut, unless you face lots of Nahiri in your meta. It's good against Jund (doesn't kill ravine though) and you lose a lot of % points against Infect or in general creature decks by chosing sorcery speed.
About boggles you should most likely ignore the MU unless a regular at your lgs plays it. It's fairly narrow. 2 EE is a must I'd say (great against boggles, but a lot of decks to), more flexible than wraths or edicts. You don't really want languish in a delver+YP deck...and even if you go the overturf plan of grixis control post side, I think Anger of the gods is a better choice.Lost legacy is 3 mana sorcery and really narrow (you don't need that to beat Ad nauseam or Grishoalbrand. If you're siding it in against other decks, you're most likely doing it wrong and oversiding). Also don't run BB cards if you have blood moon in the side
Grixis delver is a very flexible deck and list you play and your SB should really depend on what you expect (but don't stay in between builds). I would cut at least a flooded strand or for an additional spirebluff canal, especially as you don't run tarns. Strand is not amazing in the deck and doesn't get blood crypt (fetching basic island is awkward with lots of RB cards). Don't really like blood moons+molten rain, that's a lot of non basic hate. I would also add a vandalblast, especially as you don't have a 2nd EE. Never underestimate affinity, even if you run K-command
Thanks for the reply.
The maindeck is based on and still almost identical to Caleb Durwards with just a few changes, one being a Dreadbore because of the printing of Nahiri. The sorcery speed isn't ideal, but the pros have outweighed the cons so far. Usually it just shoots down a Goyf or something, but I've killed plenty of Nahiri, Liliana, Gideon and Elspeth, Suns Champion so far too. It is worse against Infect for sure, but I feel like that matchup is in our favour enough to do this switch as PWers can be problematic. I think it's warranted with three Terminates in the deck already.
That's fair on the Young Pyromancer, I cut it originally for a third Angler but tried it out again last night. I think I'll go back to another fish, but I like the probes to power out the five delve threats on time.
Agree on the Dispel becoming a Spell Snare, I'll make that swap. I'm not too big on Spell Pierce in this build as it's more controlling than a tempo build with Young Pyromancer.
Yeah, I'll get at least one more EE and just ignore boggles. Agree on Lost Legacy too, does seem pretty bad as the matchups we want it for are fine already (I'd never side extraction effects vs fair decks).
The Blood Moons and Molten Rains don't always come as a set. Moon is mostly for Tron and Eldrazi, but Molten Rain comes in vs control and other midrange decks too. The Molten Rains have really overperformed for me and I was running three before I added Moons to the SB. If either goes it's the Moons I think.
Fair point on Strand, I just don't have Tarns, it's not ideal I know. I'll add another Canal like you suggest until I get them.
Onto another point, what are peoples plans for Dredge? This matchup feels terrible.
it feels like you're in between the Overturf build and the more recent Pyro+probe build. I don't thin 1 pyro 2 probe is a good compromise. Either go all-in on pyro (which I would recommand in a faster meta like MTGO) or Overturf if you prefer a more controlling deck. I don't like dispel main. It is not very flexible, a 3rd spell snare is way better. Spell pierce if you really like to counter removal. Dreadbore should be a terminate or murderous cut, unless you face lots of Nahiri in your meta. It's good against Jund (doesn't kill ravine though) and you lose a lot of % points against Infect or in general creature decks by chosing sorcery speed.
About boggles you should most likely ignore the MU unless a regular at your lgs plays it. It's fairly narrow. 2 EE is a must I'd say (great against boggles, but a lot of decks to), more flexible than wraths or edicts. You don't really want languish in a delver+YP deck...and even if you go the overturf plan of grixis control post side, I think Anger of the gods is a better choice.Lost legacy is 3 mana sorcery and really narrow (you don't need that to beat Ad nauseam or Grishoalbrand. If you're siding it in against other decks, you're most likely doing it wrong and oversiding). Also don't run BB cards if you have blood moon in the side
Grixis delver is a very flexible deck and list you play and your SB should really depend on what you expect (but don't stay in between builds). I would cut at least a flooded strand or for an additional spirebluff canal, especially as you don't run tarns. Strand is not amazing in the deck and doesn't get blood crypt (fetching basic island is awkward with lots of RB cards). Don't really like blood moons+molten rain, that's a lot of non basic hate. I would also add a vandalblast, especially as you don't have a 2nd EE. Never underestimate affinity, even if you run K-command
Thanks for the reply.
The maindeck is based on and still almost identical to Caleb Durwards with just a few changes, one being a Dreadbore because of the printing of Nahiri. The sorcery speed isn't ideal, but the pros have outweighed the cons so far. Usually it just shoots down a Goyf or something, but I've killed plenty of Nahiri, Liliana, Gideon and Elspeth, Suns Champion so far too. It is worse against Infect for sure, but I feel like that matchup is in our favour enough to do this switch as PWers can be problematic. I think it's warranted with three Terminates in the deck already.
That's fair on the Young Pyromancer, I cut it originally for a third Angler but tried it out again last night. I think I'll go back to another fish, but I like the probes to power out the five delve threats on time.
Agree on the Dispel becoming a Spell Snare, I'll make that swap. I'm not too big on Spell Pierce in this build as it's more controlling than a tempo build with Young Pyromancer.
Yeah, I'll get at least one more EE and just ignore boggles. Agree on Lost Legacy too, does seem pretty bad as the matchups we want it for are fine already (I'd never side extraction effects vs fair decks).
The Blood Moons and Molten Rains don't always come as a set. Moon is mostly for Tron and Eldrazi, but Molten Rain comes in vs control and other midrange decks too. The Molten Rains have really overperformed for me and I was running three before I added Moons to the SB. If either goes it's the Moons I think.
Fair point on Strand, I just don't have Tarns, it's not ideal I know. I'll add another Canal like you suggest until I get them.
Onto another point, what are peoples plans for Dredge? This matchup feels terrible.
For I experience matching with Boggle, against that deck really need a good hand to start, u must start with Turn 1 delver (even better if 2 delver in play), keep a spellsnare or mana leak for just for Daybreak Coronet and ignore any other enchantment. Snap bolt snap for the win.
For dredge is another bad match up, siding magma spray or anger to make thing easier, but must beware of suspended Gargadon!
I'm interested on hearing people's lines for some solitare games I was doing earlier against Jund.
Here's my list if anybody cares (not looking for list feedback atm, it's a bit loose because I want to see how certain cards play rather than a streamlined list I'm going to take to a tournament:
I don't have any experience piloting Jund so the way I was playing it may not be ideal, but I assumed if I could avoid going to 6 life (aka bolt-snap-bolt range) off of my lands that was worth doing. With that assumption in mind as the delver player, do you bolt Lili here to get it off the board, or bide your time and hope to chain together lethal burn with your snapcaster? With all the hand disruption Jund uses I didn't think I was likely to keep both cards in hand for long anyway so clearing Lili seemed the best play.
Scenario 2:
Following up Scenatio 1, I've bolted Lili and 2 turns later I get Inquisitioned. I cast Snapcaster since it's my only card in hand, but now do I flashback Bolt for a 2 turn clock or flashback Electrolyze for a 3 turn clock with +1 card? Given how easily Snappies die in this matchup, I didn't think it was a reliable clock even for 1 more Jund draw-step (and I only knew 1 of the 3 cards in the Jund players hand - Swamp). I opted for the Electrolyze hoping it'd get me closer to a more durable wincon like a Delve threat or some burn to go with my snapcaster.
I'm confident in my play for Scenario 1 but less so on Scenario 2 so I'd like to hear how others would play it.
Card need blue source: 24/60
Card need red source: 12/60
Card need black source: 10/60
Land that give blue source: 17/60
Land that give red source: 13/60
Land that give black source: 13/60
Similar to mine except i have 2 vents 1 grave. Black always feels unimportant in my matches, while UR is crucial, and there aren't many games i dont end up with both vents on the field. Have you felt that at all?
Card need blue source: 24/60
Card need red source: 12/60
Card need black source: 10/60
Land that give blue source: 17/60
Land that give red source: 13/60
Land that give black source: 13/60
Similar to mine except i have 2 vents 1 grave. Black always feels unimportant in my matches, while UR is crucial, and there aren't many games i dont end up with both vents on the field. Have you felt that at all?
Yep, the very first dual land I going play definitely would be UR, follow by a B or UB on following turn. However, thanks to canal, the deck having 4 UR and I feel that 2nd vent might not necessary in my deck. For grave I needed 2 due to satisfying fetches. (8 fetches for 7 fetchable lands-3 basics, 4 shock lands)
In game, most game I end up probably 1 vent and 1 canal in play
Hi all, new to Grixis Delver (in Modern, at least!). Local store stopped running its legacy nights, so I'm looking at the decks I'd want to play in Modern. This deck looks pretty sweet, so I thought I'd try to test it out. Here's my list, which seems to be very similar to a lot of lists here.
From what I know of my local meta, there's a decent amount of affinity so I have 2 maindeck Kolaghan's Command rather than just the 1. Quick question: Obviously, in Modern, there's no Cabal Therapy which makes Young Pyromancer a bit worse; however has this deck ever run anything like Inquisition of Kozilek? I've been reading all about how counters are bad in Modern, so this might be a way to mitigate that. However, I think the deck is very well positioned.
Also, what about Disrupting Shoal? I was thinking of replacing the Spell Snare with it. Seems like free counters, even if they're not the best, would be super good against a lot of decks. Would definitely need to make the deck more "blue" to compensate, of course.
Also, Dredge should be a good, if not 50/50 matchup for us. If you run 2 Surgical Extraction in your sideboard, target their Prized Amalgam where possible. We have Snapcaster Mage for additional recursion. Modern Dredge doesn't have as much recursion and doesn't run Bridge from Below. The Amalgam is the muscle from all of the videos I've seen. Take those out and you're fine. That being said, Living End doesn't seem to be very good for us. This is definitely where Discard to hit their cascade stuff could come in handy.
Anyway, here's my deck. Sideboard is still a bit in flux but I followed what seems to be the more popular configurations. Decks I know of in my meta are Jund, Abzan, and Affinity. I understand that Abzan is not a good matchup for us so I definitely have several ways to combat them in there.
Targeted discard isn't amazing for tempo decks because you are spending mana at sorcery speed to trade 1 for 1 for a card that hasn't had any resources put into it yet; meaning targeted discard will always be a tempo negative play. Now if you can take the only card that will win your opponent the game then sure, the tempo doesn't matter, but most decks in modern are resilient enough to win through discard. If you want to play discard in Grixis I would look into the "blue Jund" deck that plays more at sorcery speed and is closer to midrange than tempo.
Disrupting shoal isn't amazing here but for different reasons. We would need a slightly heavier blue list with a few 3 CMC blue cards such as electrolyze to fill out our counter potential. Even if you construct your deck so that it works, it still is card disadvantage. Now being card disadvantage doesn't make it a non tempo play (in fact most tempo plays are generally considered card disadvantage) but there are a few things making it not quite the force of will of modern:
1) Our delver deck is a lot slower than legacy delver. Legacy delver lists are generally very aggressive and burn heavy playing price of progress and chain lightning in addition to bolt. Protecting a threat for one turn is much more likely to end the game in legacy than in modern. Add to that the fact there is more removal and modern and it makes it even worse.
2) The lack of explosive combo decks makes it less important. Trading 2-1 by countering a goyf on the draw is ok but in general there really isn't anything that NEEDS to be countered T0 or T1 in modern. Barring some god hand or simian spirit guide shenanigans you will nearly always still feel in the game by T2.
3) Our weird curve makes it a lot less useful. In your list shoal can only "free" counter 1 and 2 drops. You currently only have 6 two mana blue spells in the deck and I assume leak would be cut for the shoal. That means shoal is basically only going to be a free counter for 1CMC spells when we really need it to hit 2 as well.
4) We don't usually hit enough lands to make use of the casting potential of shoal.
I have been playing around with shoal in a UW spirits deck and it is pretty good in there with tallowisp making for some interesting interactions.
Thanks for your response. Like I said, I'm new to Modern so I'm not hugely up-to-date on all the interactions. Your points make a lot of sense, especially as I noted that Disrupting Shoal -could- be good but would warrant a redo of a lot of the deck. I've played a lot of Grixis Delver in Legacy so am familiar with how the deck runs.
Anyhow, much appreciated with the response. I'll stick with a stock list for a while and see how it runs, and then will tune it a bit more as I get used to the different intricacies. : )
Card need blue source: 24/60
Card need red source: 12/60
Card need black source: 10/60
Land that give blue source: 17/60
Land that give red source: 13/60
Land that give black source: 13/60
Similar to mine except i have 2 vents 1 grave. Black always feels unimportant in my matches, while UR is crucial, and there aren't many games i dont end up with both vents on the field. Have you felt that at all?
Yep, the very first dual land I going play definitely would be UR, follow by a B or UB on following turn. However, thanks to canal, the deck having 4 UR and I feel that 2nd vent might not necessary in my deck. For grave I needed 2 due to satisfying fetches. (8 fetches for 7 fetchable lands-3 basics, 4 shock lands)
In game, most game I end up probably 1 vent and 1 canal in play
Only having two fetchable red sources is scary to me, but if its working for you thats great!
I don't have a ton of competitive experience in legacy but I tried to compare my points to the legacy version as much as I could to give you a frame of reference.
I think the idea to try the "stock" list is a good idea so you can start to get a feel for why certain things are the way they are and then you can always adjust from there. I have been all over the place with my list but am closish to stock.
You'll notice that the deck is really good at switching gears. Depending on the match up you could be the aggressive player or the control player and you can play midrangy grind fests as well as anyone. Once you realize the decks strength is in it's versatility you will understand some of the choices.
Shoal is an awesome card and definitely can work with delver but it would need to be a much different looking list as you said. Similarly, I don't like remand in our deck. I like it in combo decks like twin or in an aggressive tempo list like UR delver where buying you that one turn can easily close out a game. Our deck will occasionally play that roll but I value versatility and when we are in our control/grind mode remand is probably the worst card in the deck. spell snare has been absolutely golden for me. 2 CMC is just so important in modern.
Yeah, remand is getting increasingly rare in delver because the best MU for it (Tron) has dropped off a bit. I've found dredge to generally be a bad MU unless we load up on GY hate (not common) or have a double-delver hand. Living end on the other hand is pretty solid (so is restore balance should that come up for anyone) as scout can mill creatures for us and we only need 1-2 counters with our clock. And yes, boggles should really just be ignored in the SB unless you know you'll see it. Those are both MUs that are quite bad without extensive having, and they are rare enough that we have better things to worry about. However, should living end really concern anyone add invasive surgery to the board, we about always have delirium and no end means many, many turns added to their clock.
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." --Jaya Ballard
@the_blue_mage hey i followed your lead with the land changes in the jones deck. i played a ceremonious rejection in the sb. great against affinity. went 3-1 tonight 2-0 burn 2-1 affinity (only lost cause i didnt see my 3rd land for my EE to get his etched champs) 2-0 belcher (i know i know...some guys are just taking the deck for a sTroll in our meta and the rejection got his belcher off the top twice) and then 2-0 naya evo/chord kiki/resto.dec
overall the deck felt strong. i blind-flipped my delvers 9/10 times so that got a grunt from my opponents lol. collective brutality was damn good when i saw it. i did the full escalation vs naya killing his bird two life swap and stripping a chord from his hand that i knew about from a probe. that game ended not long after via tasigur eating what i escalated to the brutality.
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Really? I've brought it in before and it spectacularly underwhelmed. They won't play into an on-board trick, plus it doesn't touch inkmoth.
Primers
4C Walkers
I'll give it a whirl. Also, do truths reeeaaallly work out okay? We take alot of damage already and adding a few more+tapping out for a turn doesn't seem like a good idea. I do recommend visions though, but not the whole 4 AV in, 4 Delver out bs some people have been floating. I only run 2 in the board and those are usually for probes, peezy, or removal depending on MU. Cutting delvers is just a bad idea, as we can't out-control those decks (and as a random tangent, AV can actually be good against lantern, it lets you pump their hand size for bridge on your turn. Same for wheel in some of the breach/vengeance lists)
Primers
4C Walkers
You could afford to use less harsh words than "bs", I'm sure.
After all, this strategy enabled Xavier Lau to take WMCQ Singapore, and Ryan Overturf's now famous win. Siding out 4 delvers is exactly what you want to do against lightning bolt and abrupt decay decks, because your card quality is lower than their and your need answers that can deal with theirs while landing threats that at least demand a path or terminate, so the answers that can hit your threats get reduced to 4/60 rather than 8/60 to 10/60. I still remove all delvers and board in AVs against such decks, and it still works. If your meta doesn't have many jund or nahiri decks, you can afford to keep them in.
Painful Truths is a painful alternative, but necessary for any deck wanting to draw 3 in this meta. The only thing more painful than bolting yourself is drawing an AV when struggling to win a topdeck war.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
It like playing mind game with infect player. I have done by casting EE for 0 mana awaiting his inkmoth to be creaturelize. It great too putting x=1 to burst hierarch and elf
I agree EE is a good tech and it buys us time since the Infect player will try to not go all-in opening themselves up to a blowout, but setting it to 0 just shows at least one of the two players is a bad player. It can't destroy Inkmoth, and so either the infect player doesn't know that and play around a do-nothing card, or the Delver player just made a huge mistake (or maybe tried to outsmart the other player and failed).
The MD I'm between the one Young Pyromancer and a third Gurmag Angler, the fish has been consistently great. A Forked Bolt is going to be switched with a Collective Brutality when I get one. The Dispel might become a third Spell Snare.
2-0 vs Lantern with Thopter Sword combo. Not much to say, super fast clock game one then AV, K Commands and Snapcasters did work game two.
2-1 vs Esper control. Game one he stumbled a turn on his fourth land drop so couldn't cast verdict which let me get a large swing in and bolt him out. Game two I got Collonaded, foolishly took out all Terminates and didn't draw any Molten Rains. Game three AV let me extend fairly easily onto the board and he ran out of removal.
2-0 vs RG Ponza w/Madcap Experiment. Game one I bolted the bird and he didn't do much. Game two I had turn one Delver, he stone rained, I followed up with Scour into Tasigur followed by two Anglers the following turns. Finks, Baloth and Thragtusk weren't close to enough.
0-2 vs Boggles. Fack this deck, that is all. I only have one EE at the moment, ideally I'd play two or three which could help. Are there any good SB cards available to us that aren't super narrow (Hibernation falls under that)? Tribue to Hunger or Devour Flesh, maybe? But still a bit too narrow for my liking. Languish is another thought.
This is what I was running. The G Cage obviously shouldn't be there, but I was short on GY hate and the shop didn't have Crypt Incursions. It should be noted that the SB is far from ideal, but I'm going through a list of things and trying them out to see how they feel in the deck.
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Young Pyromancer
4 Serum Visions
1 Dreadbore
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thought Scour
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Dispel
1 Electrolyze
3 Terminate
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Spirebluff Canal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Blood Moon
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Lost Legacy
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Countersquall
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Molten Rain
About boggles you should most likely ignore the MU unless a regular at your lgs plays it. It's fairly narrow. 2 EE is a must I'd say (great against boggles, but a lot of decks to), more flexible than wraths or edicts. You don't really want languish in a delver+YP deck...and even if you go the overturf plan of grixis control post side, I think Anger of the gods is a better choice.Lost legacy is 3 mana sorcery and really narrow (you don't need that to beat Ad nauseam or Grishoalbrand. If you're siding it in against other decks, you're most likely doing it wrong and oversiding). Also don't run BB cards if you have blood moon in the side
Grixis delver is a very flexible deck and list you play and your SB should really depend on what you expect (but don't stay in between builds). I would cut at least a flooded strand or for an additional spirebluff canal, especially as you don't run tarns. Strand is not amazing in the deck and doesn't get blood crypt (fetching basic island is awkward with lots of RB cards). Don't really like blood moons+molten rain, that's a lot of non basic hate. I would also add a vandalblast, especially as you don't have a 2nd EE. Never underestimate affinity, even if you run K-command
Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm
Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show
Duel Commander: Kess High Tide
Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
Thanks for the reply.
The maindeck is based on and still almost identical to Caleb Durwards with just a few changes, one being a Dreadbore because of the printing of Nahiri. The sorcery speed isn't ideal, but the pros have outweighed the cons so far. Usually it just shoots down a Goyf or something, but I've killed plenty of Nahiri, Liliana, Gideon and Elspeth, Suns Champion so far too. It is worse against Infect for sure, but I feel like that matchup is in our favour enough to do this switch as PWers can be problematic. I think it's warranted with three Terminates in the deck already.
That's fair on the Young Pyromancer, I cut it originally for a third Angler but tried it out again last night. I think I'll go back to another fish, but I like the probes to power out the five delve threats on time.
Agree on the Dispel becoming a Spell Snare, I'll make that swap. I'm not too big on Spell Pierce in this build as it's more controlling than a tempo build with Young Pyromancer.
Yeah, I'll get at least one more EE and just ignore boggles. Agree on Lost Legacy too, does seem pretty bad as the matchups we want it for are fine already (I'd never side extraction effects vs fair decks).
The Blood Moons and Molten Rains don't always come as a set. Moon is mostly for Tron and Eldrazi, but Molten Rain comes in vs control and other midrange decks too. The Molten Rains have really overperformed for me and I was running three before I added Moons to the SB. If either goes it's the Moons I think.
Fair point on Strand, I just don't have Tarns, it's not ideal I know. I'll add another Canal like you suggest until I get them.
Onto another point, what are peoples plans for Dredge? This matchup feels terrible.
For I experience matching with Boggle, against that deck really need a good hand to start, u must start with Turn 1 delver (even better if 2 delver in play), keep a spellsnare or mana leak for just for Daybreak Coronet and ignore any other enchantment. Snap bolt snap for the win.
For dredge is another bad match up, siding magma spray or anger to make thing easier, but must beware of suspended Gargadon!
Here's my list if anybody cares (not looking for list feedback atm, it's a bit loose because I want to see how certain cards play rather than a streamlined list I'm going to take to a tournament:
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Young Pyromancer
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
2 Terminate
2 Spell Snare
2 Remand
1 Mana Leak
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Electrolyze
1 Murderous Cut
1 Dismember
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
2 Spirebluff Canal
Scenario 1:
I don't have any experience piloting Jund so the way I was playing it may not be ideal, but I assumed if I could avoid going to 6 life (aka bolt-snap-bolt range) off of my lands that was worth doing. With that assumption in mind as the delver player, do you bolt Lili here to get it off the board, or bide your time and hope to chain together lethal burn with your snapcaster? With all the hand disruption Jund uses I didn't think I was likely to keep both cards in hand for long anyway so clearing Lili seemed the best play.
Scenario 2:
Following up Scenatio 1, I've bolted Lili and 2 turns later I get Inquisitioned. I cast Snapcaster since it's my only card in hand, but now do I flashback Bolt for a 2 turn clock or flashback Electrolyze for a 3 turn clock with +1 card? Given how easily Snappies die in this matchup, I didn't think it was a reliable clock even for 1 more Jund draw-step (and I only knew 1 of the 3 cards in the Jund players hand - Swamp). I opted for the Electrolyze hoping it'd get me closer to a more durable wincon like a Delve threat or some burn to go with my snapcaster.
I'm confident in my play for Scenario 1 but less so on Scenario 2 so I'd like to hear how others would play it.
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Gurmag Angler
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Serum Visions
1 Murderous Cut
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thought Scour
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Electrolyze
3 Terminate
1 Collective Brutality
1 Blood Crypt
2 Watery Grave
3 Spirebluff Canal
1 Darkslick Shores
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Dispel
2 Countersquall
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Crumble To Dust
2 Anger of the God
Card need blue source: 24/60
Card need red source: 12/60
Card need black source: 10/60
Land that give blue source: 17/60
Land that give red source: 13/60
Land that give black source: 13/60
Similar to mine except i have 2 vents 1 grave. Black always feels unimportant in my matches, while UR is crucial, and there aren't many games i dont end up with both vents on the field. Have you felt that at all?
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Yep, the very first dual land I going play definitely would be UR, follow by a B or UB on following turn. However, thanks to canal, the deck having 4 UR and I feel that 2nd vent might not necessary in my deck. For grave I needed 2 due to satisfying fetches. (8 fetches for 7 fetchable lands-3 basics, 4 shock lands)
In game, most game I end up probably 1 vent and 1 canal in play
From what I know of my local meta, there's a decent amount of affinity so I have 2 maindeck Kolaghan's Command rather than just the 1. Quick question: Obviously, in Modern, there's no Cabal Therapy which makes Young Pyromancer a bit worse; however has this deck ever run anything like Inquisition of Kozilek? I've been reading all about how counters are bad in Modern, so this might be a way to mitigate that. However, I think the deck is very well positioned.
Also, what about Disrupting Shoal? I was thinking of replacing the Spell Snare with it. Seems like free counters, even if they're not the best, would be super good against a lot of decks. Would definitely need to make the deck more "blue" to compensate, of course.
Also, Dredge should be a good, if not 50/50 matchup for us. If you run 2 Surgical Extraction in your sideboard, target their Prized Amalgam where possible. We have Snapcaster Mage for additional recursion. Modern Dredge doesn't have as much recursion and doesn't run Bridge from Below. The Amalgam is the muscle from all of the videos I've seen. Take those out and you're fine. That being said, Living End doesn't seem to be very good for us. This is definitely where Discard to hit their cascade stuff could come in handy.
Anyway, here's my deck. Sideboard is still a bit in flux but I followed what seems to be the more popular configurations. Decks I know of in my meta are Jund, Abzan, and Affinity. I understand that Abzan is not a good matchup for us so I definitely have several ways to combat them in there.
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Gurmag Angler
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Serum Visions
1 Murderous Cut
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thought Scour
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Terminate
1 Collective Brutality
1 Blood Crypt
2 Watery Grave
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Darkslick Shores
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Pierce
2 Painful Truths
2 Magma Spray
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Countersquall
1 Vandalblast
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Dispel
1 Electrolyze
Disrupting shoal isn't amazing here but for different reasons. We would need a slightly heavier blue list with a few 3 CMC blue cards such as electrolyze to fill out our counter potential. Even if you construct your deck so that it works, it still is card disadvantage. Now being card disadvantage doesn't make it a non tempo play (in fact most tempo plays are generally considered card disadvantage) but there are a few things making it not quite the force of will of modern:
1) Our delver deck is a lot slower than legacy delver. Legacy delver lists are generally very aggressive and burn heavy playing price of progress and chain lightning in addition to bolt. Protecting a threat for one turn is much more likely to end the game in legacy than in modern. Add to that the fact there is more removal and modern and it makes it even worse.
2) The lack of explosive combo decks makes it less important. Trading 2-1 by countering a goyf on the draw is ok but in general there really isn't anything that NEEDS to be countered T0 or T1 in modern. Barring some god hand or simian spirit guide shenanigans you will nearly always still feel in the game by T2.
3) Our weird curve makes it a lot less useful. In your list shoal can only "free" counter 1 and 2 drops. You currently only have 6 two mana blue spells in the deck and I assume leak would be cut for the shoal. That means shoal is basically only going to be a free counter for 1CMC spells when we really need it to hit 2 as well.
4) We don't usually hit enough lands to make use of the casting potential of shoal.
I have been playing around with shoal in a UW spirits deck and it is pretty good in there with tallowisp making for some interesting interactions.
Thanks for your response. Like I said, I'm new to Modern so I'm not hugely up-to-date on all the interactions. Your points make a lot of sense, especially as I noted that Disrupting Shoal -could- be good but would warrant a redo of a lot of the deck. I've played a lot of Grixis Delver in Legacy so am familiar with how the deck runs.
Anyhow, much appreciated with the response. I'll stick with a stock list for a while and see how it runs, and then will tune it a bit more as I get used to the different intricacies. : )
Only having two fetchable red sources is scary to me, but if its working for you thats great!
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I don't have a ton of competitive experience in legacy but I tried to compare my points to the legacy version as much as I could to give you a frame of reference.
I think the idea to try the "stock" list is a good idea so you can start to get a feel for why certain things are the way they are and then you can always adjust from there. I have been all over the place with my list but am closish to stock.
You'll notice that the deck is really good at switching gears. Depending on the match up you could be the aggressive player or the control player and you can play midrangy grind fests as well as anyone. Once you realize the decks strength is in it's versatility you will understand some of the choices.
Shoal is an awesome card and definitely can work with delver but it would need to be a much different looking list as you said. Similarly, I don't like remand in our deck. I like it in combo decks like twin or in an aggressive tempo list like UR delver where buying you that one turn can easily close out a game. Our deck will occasionally play that roll but I value versatility and when we are in our control/grind mode remand is probably the worst card in the deck. spell snare has been absolutely golden for me. 2 CMC is just so important in modern.
Primers
4C Walkers
overall the deck felt strong. i blind-flipped my delvers 9/10 times so that got a grunt from my opponents lol. collective brutality was damn good when i saw it. i did the full escalation vs naya killing his bird two life swap and stripping a chord from his hand that i knew about from a probe. that game ended not long after via tasigur eating what i escalated to the brutality.