MTG Salvation

Quote from Moutz »

pillar is ok as it is slightly worse than bolt in the average game and great against company. if you expect lots of company, id be happy to play 1 or 2 in the 75.
on the other hand, hexmage is so much worse than any other creature in the deck when it is bad that it is not worth playing. when it is good, as you wrote, it can "hold off" finks (what's the point of playing it if it can't even 1 for 1 with no downside ?), kill a planeswalker (since when do we have trouble dealing with them ? we're full of creatures, burn spells, and counters. just play more dreadbores if you're that obsessed with them). im not even talking about scooze because I hope you've got my point already.

go play more games with nahiri, and at least gain the knowledge on that subject matter before you lecture me on it.

Quote from Moutz »

yea when you're short on arguments I guess all you can do is ask for ***** size heh
does it matter how many games I played against this deck when your whole point can be dismembered in 3 lines ? just play more dreadbore's if you cant manage nahiri

dismembered? you havent played the card, period. Your "giant head" full of theories is all you have.

Is the card any good? All you have is what you "think". You dont speak from experience, and that's why I don't buy your critique, NOT because of your "debating skills".

Something something ***** size something something if you cant manage nahiri play dreadbore. Guess what, Hexmage does the exact same thing as dreadbore as far as planeswalkers are concerned. She's a fulminator mage for planeswalkers.

Test the card, then come back and tell me how it does against the field. I have had a much better time with it than a dedicated sorcery speed removal.

I have to say that Vampire Hexmage looks interesting. Having a body that can beat a surprising amount of creatures in combat (as Thalia, Guardian of Thraben does for the Death & Taxes players) is pretty relevant, and its effect is really good against planeswalkers. That said, the BB cost is scary to me, given that this deck is pushed so hard in the direction of U.

Pithing Needle is definitely a good card overall (it's served me very well in aggressive decks that need catch-all answers, such as Gruul Zoo and Merfolk), but I'm skeptical of its fit here. It's an artifact as opposed to an instant/sorcery (strike one), the deck has plenty of access to spells that counter or kill troublesome permanents (strike two), and its effect is rescinded if it's removed (strike three). I will need to hear some compelling arguments to consider it a good fit in Delver.

I don't really understand how Vampire Hexmage is better than Dreadbore. Molten Rain is a defensible alternative to Fulminator, but Fulminator is a 2/2. That extra 1 toughness does matter with a number of -1/-1 effects in Modern. Is Hexmage then an equivalent alternative to Dreadbore? Dreadbore also grabs a creature as not every modern deck plays walkers. Once Jeskai hate ramps up I don't think Nahiri is going to be quite as worrisome as she seems these past GPs. How is casting a creature, then sacing it better than sorcery that you can Snap back? I only play one Rise/Fall sideboard and 2 K-Command main so bringing back Hexmage or Fulminator is not as reliable as using Snappy, then using K-Command to bring back Snappy.

These are fair counterpoints, honestly. The ability to Snap things back and Dreadbore's superior target versatility probably trumps Vampire Hexmage's body and ability to be pulled back up with Kolaghan's Command. The question is... how do you get the Dreadbores in there, assuming you consider it necessary. Trim Terminates?

Grafdigger's Cage. Shutters Nahiri ult, Snaps (ours too, but that's SB card anyway); Collected Company, Chord, Finks/Redcap recursion; Goryo's Vengeance - and all for 1 mana. Also useful against random graveyard decks.

And what about Venser - just play Cryptic if you want this type of slot. It's more flexible and synergistic with our creatures. I started playing singleton and never looked back.

Quote from Moutz »

does this deck want a 2/1 first striker for 2 mana ? I mean these are fine stats for a common in limited, but almost every one drop creature beat it in modern; you might find some more expensive creatures that it beats but how can you make that a rule ?
@marcwizard we've already had this conversation last time I came to the thread. all your posts lead to the same conclusion : you're a casual magic player who actually wants to teach spikes stuff. it always ends up the same : arguments about who knows best, and you always seem to be content with your wrong conclusions. I read some more of the thread while I was bored at work, and I think, on your own, you made basically every good player stay away from this thread lol. I'll be staying away from this thing again aswell, best of luck everyone else !

Good riddance, because your posts lead to the same conclusion- you're a high-horsed spike-wannabe that sits behind a keyboard and shoots down everything with theories and not open to testing. guess what, nobody here is selling a card to be the next thing you should bring to the next GP. I didn't even come here and said i think XX should be good. I tested the card, *then* came here and talked about it and what it does.

Your method is to basically use hyperbole (10 good ways to deal with one card?) to justify your snipes. So, what are you interested in doing here, then? Talk about netdecks all day?

LOL @ how i made spikes stay away from this thread singlehandedly. Your hyperbole is at least as amusing as it is airheaded.

Quote from falchion72 »

I don't really understand how Vampire Hexmage is better than Dreadbore. Molten Rain is a defensible alternative to Fulminator, but Fulminator is a 2/2. That extra 1 toughness does matter with a number of -1/-1 effects in Modern. Is Hexmage then an equivalent alternative to Dreadbore? Dreadbore also grabs a creature as not every modern deck plays walkers. Once Jeskai hate ramps up I don't think Nahiri is going to be quite as worrisome as she seems these past GPs. How is casting a creature, then sacing it better than sorcery that you can Snap back? I only play one Rise/Fall sideboard and 2 K-Command main so bringing back Hexmage or Fulminator is not as reliable as using Snappy, then using K-Command to bring back Snappy.

Fulminator is a 2/2 but it doesn't have first strike. Consider the interactions between Fulminator and the creatures we generally hate: Voice, Finks, Scooze. Everything else we can terminate cleanly.

The one toughness comes up very seldom, simply because the opponents are not going to bring in -1/-1 effects against us, unless they want to try catching unflipped Delvers.

I'm meeting plenty of Nahiri and am quite sure I will fight her at least twice during the WMCQ in mid-July. I'm not going to cut a Terminate for Dreadbore, so i would much rather have another angle to hit PW with, while having it be able to deal with other threats.

Well speaking of trying new cards, it was either here or the Control thread but someone suggested using Grotesque Mutation as pseudo/bad lightning helix for Grixis. It was mostly ignored, but, I have 2 flex spots in my deck and decided to test it out, and it's been pretty useful for saving Delvers or making an early Angler devastating. Can also slap one on a Titi to kill a goblin guide and gain some life when they want to be cute and try to kill it by swinging and then bolting it after you block. Only obvious problem is that it requires a creature obviously and Vampiric Link exists.

posting in any of the other deck threads is hard;y as daunting as it is here. In the elves thread, players bounce ideas, test, come back, recommend better things, test *that*, come back... its an ever constant improvement cycle. Take a look inside, honestly, and see how the conversation there goes. I'm active there as well, and I feel like a whole other person there. There is no defensiveness, because nobody gets aggressive in the first place.

People there don't get sarcastic, "are we going to play a 2/1 now" remarks, throw what they must think are heart-gouging insults like "casual". Such words don't even come to mind. People don't even think of it.

For whatever MouT is worth, his condescending attitude is definitely not worth the value he brings to this forum.

Quote from Moutz »

Quote from MarcWizard »

imo a thread like this should be about sharing knowledge/true facts
problem is "some" people seem to have diverse opinions on card choices, which makes actual knowledge/truth tangible
when the actual truth starts becoming different for each people, then there is no more truth and this thread/deck can never become better
thats why you need a condescending moron with actual good results to tell you to stop trying *****ty things when they're bad. every time you try a bad card and do everything to convince yourself that it is good, you're being detrimental to the rest of the group

alright at least ive managed to describe my point with nicer words.

And the problem here is you can try and see the results instead of just being condescending with no results.

I run overturf's list and am experimenting with his flex slot. The one slot that can be tuned. You come in here, shoot everything in the air down and then turn your sights on me.

I can take debate, but not when I've actually gone and tested the card, and you come in with what you "think". If all i had was theory, we could go at it. But no, I've tested, and you haven't, plain and simple.

you want to be more productive? make this place "spikier" in your own image? Great. Post your list, tell us why its good, better, best. Want to critique a card, tell us why your alternative is better. Dreadbore (as you can imagine is the better known card and more oft selected) as a comparison was decent, though not the way u decided to put it across. Of *course* I've tried that first. Replacing a terminate with it, putting it in the 5th slot as a 5th removal.

The reasoning behind the 2/1 first strike with "sacrifice this: screw over any PW, arcbound shenanigan, beat a scooze" is twofold: experimentation and trying "dreadbore" from a more interesting angle than we already have now.

Quote from MarcWizard »

Quote from Moutz »

w t f he still thinks he's right
why the hell did I even try

Still hasn't tried the card.

Is still a loud mouthed spike wannabe with nothing to actually contribute except sarcastic and passive aggressive insults.

I'll continue discussion with anyone interested in tweaking the deck.

Blocked.

Ok heres my question,
How does the card do vs our bad matchups? You said youve killed a few walkers with it, but has it actually felt like it improves the matchup more than say, dreadbore? How bad does the card feel when its a dead card? Specifically, just how bad does it feel to draw against burn, one of our bad matchups?

Man... Vampire Hexmage is BAD. It's sad to see the topic going into this discussion. The last page is people trying to convince one guy that this didn't work. The card and the discussion does nothing to improve the deck. C'mon guys...

Quote from bfrie »

Quote from MarcWizard »

Quote from Moutz »

w t f he still thinks he's right
why the hell did I even try

Still hasn't tried the card.

Is still a loud mouthed spike wannabe with nothing to actually contribute except sarcastic and passive aggressive insults.

I'll continue discussion with anyone interested in tweaking the deck.

Blocked.

Ok heres my question,
How does the card do vs our bad matchups? You said youve killed a few walkers with it, but has it actually felt like it improves the matchup more than say, dreadbore? How bad does the card feel when its a dead card? Specifically, just how bad does it feel to draw against burn, one of our bad matchups?

Its strictly better than dreadbore if you're dealing with planeswalkers, because u have the body to swing with. Its strictly worse if you're dealing with larger creatures. For a "5th" terminate, Dreadbore would be a better option. I however wanted a card that gave me a different angle.

Hexmage gives me game against Scooze, finks, voice, and swings happily past most things that would trade, because opponents typically prefer to take 2 damage rather than let their bob or finks die unprofitably. It sucks to draw her if your problem is a goyf, UNLESS you also have a bolt (finishing a gofy after 2 FS damage is pretty swell). Its OK to draw her on an empty board. Topdecking her means u start swinging again with a 2/1, not amazing but better than dreadbore in that circumstance. I still run 3 terminates and 1 murderous cut (u never know when pro:red appears).

Again, she's not something to scream about, but as anti PW tech I've found she gives us more angles than Dreadbore. its really why i decided to give her a go in the first place.

Quote from fcpadua »

Man... Vampire Hexmage is BAD. It's sad to see the topic going into this discussion. The last page is people trying to convince one guy that this didn't work. The card and the discussion does nothing to improve the deck. C'mon guys...

Have you tried playing the card? Or just giving what you feel from reading the textbox? Genuinely curious.


BTW, "people" only refers to one sarcastic individual. There was one *person* trying to shoot it down, others as far as I can see were at worst skeptical and at best interested. Since the mod has already stepped in, I won't entertain any further baseless attacks on the tech, so if you come back with "IT SUCKS" again I'll probably just block you. Hopefully you have better information than that to share.

Quote from OneShotGame »

thing is: this is not about a single post that can be reported. it's about attitude.

some players here want to improve the deck and play it competitively, others here want to change it profoundly for their local casual meta. both is fine, as long as the more casual minded do not start to forcefeed their idea to everyone despite obvious flaws.

That's great to hear, because as far as i (and I'm sure u too) can see, nobody is trying to force feed anyone anything. Although there are some who seem to tend to disagree in very caustic fashion.

Quote from Jonny_Tempel »

So what is your general opinion about Remand guys? Is it worth running in the current meta?

I would also like to know how many delve fatties everyone is running. Have you been sticking to Ryan's 3/1 Tasi/Angler split? I find myself sometimes running out of threads (especially without Delver), so i'm currently on a 3/2 split alongside the usual Delver and SCM package.


@SageOfTheSixPaths:
Do you still run your single Izzet Charm? I'm heavily considering one copy as utility card. It can be used to loot away lands drawn with AV or even lategame drawn AV's. Having 3 modes available in one card for SCM seems nice too.

I have the one Izzet Charm as a permanent slot now. It never disappoints. The versatility is awesome. Kill, counter, draw, all 3 modes are the main things our deck does.

I've felt the same about running out of threats. I'm at a 3/2 Tas/Fish split, and also trying out a single YP again, cuz my meta is rather fast.

"I tested this card, these were my results with it."

"I disagree with that card for a, b, c, reasons, and have instead tested a different card with these results."

That's the general format of a healthy discussion. And then it stops there. Both have said their point, now the information on those cards is out there, and everyone can now make their own choice regarding the cards. If you disagree, say it once and move on. If someone disagrees with you, so be it, maybe they'll miss out on the next great tech who knows. But really, everyone, say your point, then let's all just move on to the next great bit of information.