Yea, we don't have Leyline of Sanctity available to us, but this comes pretty close. From the SB, this could come in for black based dicard, "IOK me? I IOK you!". It's a 1 card 12 point life swing if you counter a Lightning Helix aimed at our face. Kommand to retrieve your Goyf and target me for discard? I got bad news for you. Spell Mastery is easy peasy for us, which means just about any spell thrown at our face, we'll be able to counter it- and then throw it right back at them.
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Yea, we don't have Leyline of Sanctity available to us, but this comes pretty close. From the SB, this could come in for black based dicard, "IOK me? I IOK you!". It's a 1 card 12 point life swing if you counter a Lightning Helix aimed at our face. Kommand to retrieve your Goyf and target me for discard? I got bad news for you. Spell Mastery is easy peasy for us, which means just about any spell thrown at our face, we'll be able to counter it- and then throw it right back at them.
Redirect is 99% times better. You should have seen the face of Grixis Control player, when I drew 3 cards with his Ancestral Vision It's also great and unexpected SB card against Jund/Junk and Burn.
Yea, we don't have Leyline of Sanctity available to us, but this comes pretty close. From the SB, this could come in for black based dicard, "IOK me? I IOK you!". It's a 1 card 12 point life swing if you counter a Lightning Helix aimed at our face. Kommand to retrieve your Goyf and target me for discard? I got bad news for you. Spell Mastery is easy peasy for us, which means just about any spell thrown at our face, we'll be able to counter it- and then throw it right back at them.
Redirect is 99% times better. You should have seen the face of Grixis Control player, when I drew 3 cards with his Ancestral Vision It's also great and unexpected SB card against Jund/Junk and Burn.
Buying it. Why isn't it seeing modern play? It has SO many applications.
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Izzet Charm is something I'm looking at as well, however against our other 2 cmc stuff like Countersquall or Rise // Fall it seems to fall short. Its a jack of all trades.
OK, so what's our ideal curve? Turn 1 Delver, of course. Turn 2...what are we wanting to do? Our options:1)TScour into Tas if we had two fetches. 2) Hold up counterspells. 3) Cantrip/discard spell any two. 4) Kill opponents one/two drop. In my version: 5) Play Jace. 6) Rise/Fall, they killed delver get it back bounce theirs, or discard 2. Then possibly 7) Hold up Izzet Charm. Counter a 2-3 drop, or kill their creature, or if neither fix your hand eot.
If we're holding up counterspells on 2 cuz we want delver on 1, then 2 cost counters are what we're gonna be using. Countersquall is both aggressive, to close faster, or defensive, to stop a threat or kill spell or combo card. Jace is a house vs control, and great everywhere else, as a follow-up to delver. Two threats, hand fixing, CA. Demands 2 immediate removal spells. Keeps tempo in our favor. Izzet charm; what if they don't play anything we can counter??? We wasted a turn doing nothing. Izzet charm helps with this. It's instant speed, literally the 4 things we want to do most: Counter spells, kill creatures, draw cards, and fill the grave. Perfect to hold up turn 2 if we don't play a second threat.
If we're going for options on turn 2, then I think 2 cost cards are where we need to be for that turn. Threats are 1, answers are 2, turn 3 we can then begin to do both, and even turn 2 in a decent amount of cases. Everywhere on the curve we have instants and sorcery speed cards both, and the instants are very versatile. I think a few more 2 costs is fine, especially with doing everything it does for us, which is everything.
@Johnny_Tempel
That's exactly what I did, more negates/dispels, Spellskites, less Links. It failed, badly. You draw all those vs Burn's creature-based draws, you just lose horribly. That's exactly what happened to me tonight.
Invasive Surgery seems decent. What sorceries specifically do we need to extract all copies of? I can think of Scapeshift......... anything else?
Redirect seems like pretty good tech in the right meta. Bolt their own Eidolon, Terminate their own Tas, Ancestral Vision stealing, seems fun. I may give it a try in place of a couple counterspells board and see how it goes.
A thing I've learned tonight: Planeswalkers are an issue, Liliana of the Veil and Nahiri chief among them. And I got flooded even worse, 6 out of 6 games. Back to 18 land. Adding a Dreadbore in the spot. With Jace, it feels like I have 11 cantrips instead of 8, so that may be why I draw more land. Jace helped Tasigur beat a 5/6 goyf and live, aided by Grim Lavamancer to finish the goyf. Such teamwork lol.
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That's exactly what I did, more negates/dispels, Spellskites, less Links. It failed, badly. You draw all those vs Burn's creature-based draws, you just lose horribly. That's exactly what happened to me tonight.
Invasive Surgery seems decent. What sorceries specifically do we need to extract all copies of? I can think of Scapeshift......... anything else?
Yeah but i guess that's magic isn't it? Sometimes you just get unlucky and draw the wrong half of your deck. Did you bring in any kind of sweepers? What did you board out?
I was primarly thinking of scapeshift, ancient stirrings and some of the more common sweepers, but i guess it's spot is better used for dreadbore if those Nahiri decks remain a thing.
I brought in a Negate, Dispel, 2 Spellskite, a Vampiric Link, and an Anger of the Gods. I took out 2 Jace, Rise//Fall, probe, and both Thoughtseize. But yeah, Magic:the Gathering lol. Sometimes it just happens.
You know, I feel like Scapeshift is possibly our easiest matchup already. I have yet to lose to it, or even come close. RG Valakut is a different story though. I'm not worried about countering Stirrings. We need to be putting on the pressure at that stage of the game. Fighting Tron on its cantrips isn't where we want to fight them.
Considering the winning list from the Modern Open was Jeskai Nahiri Control, and 2 infect decks in the top 4, I think Dreadbore is going to be well positioned. That Nahiri deck is the real deal, I've lost to it twice already, 0-2 both times. Nahiri is so hard to deal with. Liliana of the Veil isn't very fun to sit across from either.
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Ok guys, I've got an odd list. I have enjoyed it. Got a bigger curve, not even sure if you would call it a delver deck. What I'd like to know is what is a best mana setup for it. I don't have tarns. So here is list. SB is not in stone.
I don't think spell snare is as dead as people think. Not every target looks like they're super important to counter, but in the right situations, snare can turn the game. Based off of the top lists on MtGoldfish for modern, I made a list of potential targets.
Jund:
Scooze, terminate, goyf, confidant
Infect:
Blighted agent, spellskite
Abzan company:
Voice, scooze, anafenza, melira, spellskite, wall of roots
I don't think spell snare is as dead as people think. Not every target looks like they're super important to counter, but in the right situations, snare can turn the game. Based off of the top lists on MtGoldfish for modern, I made a list of potential targets.
Jund:
Scooze, terminate, goyf, confidant
Infect:
Blighted agent, spellskite
Abzan company:
Voice, scooze, anafenza, melira, spellskite, wall of roots
RUG Scapeshift:
Snap, Sakura, anticipate, explore, far seek, user charm, peer through the depths, remand, negate
Merfolk:
Spreading seas, harbinger, mater of the pearl trident, lord of Atlantis, silverfgill adept, chalice, negate
Jeskai control:
remand, snap, helix, mana leak, negate
Death and taxes:
Arbiter, skite, Thalia, sculler
Titanshift:
Sakura, explore, khalni, omen, skite
Kiki chord:
Lone missionary, qasali pridemage, scooze, spellskite, voice, wall of omens, wall of roots
2 of delver's worst match ups spell snare is key in (jund, burn)
Tron may still be a lost cause though...
Now THIS is an incredibly useful list, many thanks for putting this together.
Of the decks listed there, I feel the only bad matchups we have are Jeskai Control, Burn, DnT, and possibly Merfolk. I don't lose to Jund much, I'm going to venture a guess it's cuz Jace helps me grind and keep gas coming when we're both topdecking, like Jund wants to be.
The rest of the list I feel we can do fine against. Tron isn't particularly bad, stick an early beater and just go as fast as you can. Sometimes they topdeck back to back Worldbreakers and you just lose though, such is MTG lol.
For those 4 matchups, though, I think you may be on to something. DnT is probably the most miserable matchup I ever play. Thalia and Arbiter in particular. Snare targets.....
Eidolon just outright kills us if it lives. A huge portion of Jeskai Control's counterspells are 2. Resolved fatty can only be dealt with with Path. Hits nearly the entire Merfolk deck period. Scooze sucks to see resolve. Bob sucks to see resolve. Goyf can sometimes be an issue, if he gets to 5/6. Burning Tree Emissary chains. All the hyper aggressive decks have 2 cost payoff spells, and those can be very hard matchups. We shine in the mid game. Too fast pressure can put us in a bad spot very quick, but going too long we get ground out. Hedging for these two matchups may be a great call. We're naturally good vs other midrange decks, so why make them better at the expense of other matchups? I can see a point here......
Some other things that just outright lose us the game if they resolve: RIP. Chalice on 1.
Then the rest of our problem cards get hit with Terminate or Countersquall....
I recently went up to 3 terminate 1 Dreadbore 1 Murderous Cut. The 3 terminate instead of 2 has been wonderful, just wonderful.
Mana leak/Remand I still have issues with, though. Deprive is great. A couple leak/remand maybe, but 4 leak I feel is far too many.
OK, maybe he has something here. I'll start testing 3 copies of Snare and see how much it really does.
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Spell Snare is a great counter but not a card that you want 4 of in any deck. I think that the only matches that i would like to have 4 spell snares would be NAYA Burn and Jeskai Nahiri but in any other deck it would be a dead card in your hand. The counter that i would like to add one to my sideboard is Invasive Surgery. Is a hard counter for killing spells like ScapeShift and many mana accelerant on the meta and if you manage to get Delirium on it can leave your opponent without a strategy.
I don't think spell snare is as dead as people think. Not every target looks like they're super important to counter, but in the right situations, snare can turn the game. Based off of the top lists on MtGoldfish for modern, I made a list of potential targets.
Jund:
Scooze, terminate, goyf, confidant
Infect:
Blighted agent, spellskite
Abzan company:
Voice, scooze, anafenza, melira, spellskite, wall of roots
RUG Scapeshift:
Snap, Sakura, anticipate, explore, far seek, user charm, peer through the depths, remand, negate
Merfolk:
Spreading seas, harbinger, mater of the pearl trident, lord of Atlantis, silverfgill adept, chalice, negate
Jeskai control:
remand, snap, helix, mana leak, negate
Death and taxes:
Arbiter, skite, Thalia, sculler
Titanshift:
Sakura, explore, khalni, omen, skite
Kiki chord:
Lone missionary, qasali pridemage, scooze, spellskite, voice, wall of omens, wall of roots
2 of delver's worst match ups spell snare is key in (jund, burn)
Tron may still be a lost cause though...
Now THIS is an incredibly useful list, many thanks for putting this together.
Of the decks listed there, I feel the only bad matchups we have are Jeskai Control, Burn, DnT, and possibly Merfolk. I don't lose to Jund much, I'm going to venture a guess it's cuz Jace helps me grind and keep gas coming when we're both topdecking, like Jund wants to be.
The rest of the list I feel we can do fine against. Tron isn't particularly bad, stick an early beater and just go as fast as you can. Sometimes they topdeck back to back Worldbreakers and you just lose though, such is MTG lol.
For those 4 matchups, though, I think you may be on to something. DnT is probably the most miserable matchup I ever play. Thalia and Arbiter in particular. Snare targets.....
Eidolon just outright kills us if it lives. A huge portion of Jeskai Control's counterspells are 2. Resolved fatty can only be dealt with with Path. Hits nearly the entire Merfolk deck period. Scooze sucks to see resolve. Bob sucks to see resolve. Goyf can sometimes be an issue, if he gets to 5/6. Burning Tree Emissary chains. All the hyper aggressive decks have 2 cost payoff spells, and those can be very hard matchups. We shine in the mid game. Too fast pressure can put us in a bad spot very quick, but going too long we get ground out. Hedging for these two matchups may be a great call. We're naturally good vs other midrange decks, so why make them better at the expense of other matchups? I can see a point here......
Some other things that just outright lose us the game if they resolve: RIP. Chalice on 1.
Then the rest of our problem cards get hit with Terminate or Countersquall....
I recently went up to 3 terminate 1 Dreadbore 1 Murderous Cut. The 3 terminate instead of 2 has been wonderful, just wonderful.
Mana leak/Remand I still have issues with, though. Deprive is great. A couple leak/remand maybe, but 4 leak I feel is far too many.
OK, maybe he has something here. I'll start testing 3 copies of Snare and see how much it really does.
Yeah he has some good points here. My favourite snare target besides Goyf will always be Voice of Resurgence. That card is just ridicolously good.
My biggest issue with snare is that it doesent answer Bolt and Path, the two most commonly played removal spells. I've said it before, snare is a very good counter but often it's to narrow to be run maindeck in higher numbers.
We are limited with our amount of counters and they should adress those problematic cards we can´t deal with otherwhise. For example, Dispel and Countersquall are great to protect our creatures from all removal spells (besides decay) we would otherwise have to use our few discard spells for. Deprive is a catch all answer and never dead. Snare is alwyays hit or miss. Sure it's better to never let that eidolon or voice resolve instead of bolting it but you can deal with those cards even without snare. Even chalice can be dealt with K-command. Did you never have that situation when your opponent path to exile, dismember, bolt your Delver with a useless Spell Snare sitting in your hand when it could have been a mana leak/remand etc. ? It's horrible, outright horrible.
I run 2 copies of snare in my U/R and Grixis sideboard and altough i´ve boarded them in in more games than any other card besides Anger of the Gods there where many games i would have lost if i would have maindecked snare over spell pierce/remand.
If your Meta is infested with Burn, Abzan Company, Merfolk and D&T i can see spell snare beeing run maindeck but otherwise i would just put 2-3 copies in your sideboard. If you run it maindeck, i would at least not cut Dispel/Countersquall for it.
Reagrding your counter/removal choices, do you run that dreadbore and murderous cut maindeck?
How good is Jace compared to Snapcaster Mage in your opinion?
Oh, I'd never cut Dispel or Countersquall for it. Countersquall and Terminate together answer most everything. But a couple may not be terrible.
Yes, I run the Dreadbore and Cut main. Probably gonna change the cut to another Dreadbore. Nahiri is just too big of a problem. And I'm thinking the Nahiri deck, and Kikki-Chord with Nahiri, will be much more popular now, and Snare is really good vs both those decks.
JVP vs Snap
OK, they're not just strictly interchangeable. They each fit a different playstyle and some card choices are better for each one. Snap is better with more counterspells, while Jace gets a bigger benefit from proactive spells that can react if necessary. Jace plays more aggressively, you want him turn 2 right after a Delver, so you don't have counterspells for that turn, so that's why I like a few extra kill spells. I like sticking it to my opponent every chance I can, keep the pressure on, keep threats coming, and force THEM to react to ME.
Jace has definitely won me games that Snap had no hope of winning. When he takes a Bolt off of your Delver, then Delver swings 2-3 times after that, you're better off than if you had a Snap. Snap will never eat a Path for Tasigur /Angler, but any savvy opponent will Path Jace instead, letting your fatty go to town on their life. Topdecking vs Control, a single Jace got me back 5 spells, which looped Delvers and that Jace for Kommand value chains. I didn't even have 5 mana to Snap a Kommand, and getting back 1 spell wouldn't have been nearly enough. Getting back more threats with Jace totally balances losing a 2/1 tiny body. Also, man, the hand fixing!!! Helps hit land drops, finds action, helps when flooding out, turns specific dead cards into real ones. It's like... When you play him, you Snapped back a cantrip, then when you flip him you have 2 Snaps again now. And his +1 isn't bad either. Locked down a Thalia (snap wouldn't have done a thing), helped me beat a Goyf in combat, and opposing a Jace it just totally locked down my Delver. Hand fixing. Pseudo-kill spell. Combat helper. Alternative win con. Grinds better. The number of games I have won because of Jace is higher than the number of games I've lost due to having to flip to get value.
The floor on Jace is higher than the floor on Snap. At minimum, Jace eats removal. That's now one less spell you have to counter or Snap-counter to save a fatty, cuz Jace saved the fatty. At minimum, Snap can't attack cuz of opposing creatures, and you have no spells to get back. Vs RIP, Snap is hilariously bad. Jace still draws me cards. I feel like the consistency Jace gives me, and the fact he's another removal target, and the fact that he can possibly get back more spells, is more mana efficient, and is far more versatile, makes him better than Snap for DELVER decks, at least the way I play delver decks.
don't change things in a list before you playtest just because you think it "might" be better.
there is a reason dreadbore is not played.
there is a reason why jacevp has been falling out of favor.
there is a reason why discard is not played maindeck.
there is a reason why spellsnare is played.
there may be wrong reasons or wrong decisions, but playtesting a list is the first step. not arbitrarily changing cards.
rant over.
EDIT: i test it right now by the way. no conclusions yet. 4-1 and (right now) 1-1 in league. what's definitely awesome is the delver/AV swap depending on the matchup and the 20 lands. really, that is right here. couldn't believe it at first.
I'll just say one thing
Don't assume people arbitrarily change things. Some do, yes, but if you read the thread, you'll see everything has been tested, all ideas are tested first.
If you watched the Open this weekend (it's up on YouTube), even Cedric and Patrick said Dreadbore MIGHT BECOME a thing. It wasn't before for a reason. It has a reason now.
If you looked at all at ANY of my other posts, you'd see I've done extensive testing and playing with JVP, for almost a year now.
Discard has won me games I'd have lost otherwise. Don't write it off so quickly.
I and another just said earlier Spell Snare has its merits.
Don't arbitrarily write off suggestions and ideas without testing them at all.
Rant over.
I was gonna try that switch post board too, it looked really good on camera.
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don't change things in a list before you playtest just because you think it "might" be better.
there is a reason dreadbore is not played.
there is a reason why jacevp has been falling out of favor.
there is a reason why discard is not played maindeck.
there is a reason why spellsnare is played.
there may be wrong reasons or wrong decisions, but playtesting a list is the first step. not arbitrarily changing cards.
rant over.
EDIT: i test it right now by the way. no conclusions yet. 4-1 and (right now) 1-1 in league. what's definitely awesome is the delver/AV swap depending on the matchup and the 20 lands. really, that is right here. couldn't believe it at first.
has anyone here given you the impression they don't playtest cards?
There are always reasons a card wasn't played, but it doesn't mean there will never be reasons to play it.
When Planeswalkers become more dangerous than Manlands, there's a reason to play Dreadbore.
When Jace VP rotates out of standard stapledom, its price will tumble.
Discard is played maindeck in many lists, including Michael Major's.
We've already pointed out tonnes of reasons to play spell snare, as well as tonnes not to.
What the heck is your rant about in the first place? Are we making you angry by talking excitedly about the cards we want to try out? We're sorry then. Cool your head.
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I can't say I admire the spirit in r/spikes, either. They're like a bunch of close-minded netdeckers at best... I would be infracted if I described worst.
I'm afraid i still dont get why you're upset. how do we express appreciation for Ryan Overturf's great work? Is he even here to receive said gratitude and adoration?
He made a list, went 56th at his invitation, went up to 11 fetches from 10 and dropped fastlands, added AV to his SB being the biggest change, and went 5th.
Does that mean his list is godly? No, it means the general direction is suited for the metagame, taking out factors like bad luck and bad pairings. I did play his list as-is, I basically rolled over and died to Emeria Control and merfolk. Snares become amazingly dead against caverns and vials. the 4 Terminates help until a master of waves arrives. Snaring seas is great game 1 but they don't keep those in.
in the end, I had to modify my list to cater for my own meta. I believe the others in here will have to do the same.
And yes, we are celebrating Ryan's achievement. But its one thing to hail a good list for the event meta and another to netdeck it and expect it to perform at the same level in another environment. I think the best thing we can do for Ryan is to take his creation to the next level, which undoubtedly he is already doing as we speak.
And to do that, it means tweaking, with cards with already use with success, or playtesting it with new tech. Don't be so upset.
I do appreciate his work, it's put Delver back on the map.
I played his list, with 4 cards changed for the meta I play in. 4 cards, that's it. I have to say, it was pretty damn good. I just won two matches with it I think I may have lost before, or at least had a harder time with.
When a list does well, we do test it. Tuned for the meta we're in, usually. The rest, is just that, ideas. Ideas to test to see if they're good or not.
I just played 3 snare, 3 terminate, 2 leak, 2 remand. Only other change was no Pillar of Flame. Bad in my meta. Honestly, it was great. I can see the reasons for all his choices. Boarding out Delvers into Ancestral Visions in grindy matchups was just genius, it just wrecked Jund. Snare was awesome, didn't always hit, but when it did (which was pretty often) it solved a gigantic issue. Vs Jund, again, it was game changing.
After TESTING all his ideas, I'm in agreement. A few (3-4) cards for meta choices is perfectly fine.
Other ideas I'm TESTING:
Dreadbore
Izzet Charm
Dreadbore has actually been very good, just 1 of. It got an otherwise unkillable Liliana of the Veil, and just another piece of removal was always nice to have.
Izzet Charm has yet to be bad for me. I'm just trying 2. It has helped kill a Goyf, countered a CoCo, killed a Bob, killed a Thalia, countered a Nahiri, and put enough in my grave to play a Tas for 1 when I needed to cuz I needed to hold open the rest of my mana. It also cycled away two lands and got me Angler which killed them and Terminate, to kill the Knight of the Reliquary I was facing down. It's floor being "loot 2" isn't bad, and another cheap aggressive creature kill spell is nice. Maybe two more Leak is still better, I'm still testing.
Overturf's list is great, Spell Snare has been great. I like what he's done, and I love his sideboard plan.
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I can't say I admire the spirit in spikes, either. They're like a bunch of close-minded netdeckers at best... I would be infracted if I described worst.
I'm afraid i still dont get why you're upset. how do we express appreciation for Ryan Overturf's great work? Is he even here to receive said gratitude and adoration?
He made a list, went 56th at his invitation, went up to 11 fetches from 10 and dropped fastlands, added AV to his SB being the biggest change, and went 5th.
Does that mean his list is godly? No, it means the general direction is suited for the metagame, taking out factors like bad luck and bad pairings. I did play his list as-is, I basically rolled over and died to Emeria Control and merfolk. Snares become amazingly dead against caverns and vials. the 4 Terminates help until a master of waves arrives. Snaring seas is great game 1 but they don't keep those in.
in the end, I had to modify my list to cater for my own meta. I believe the others in here will have to do the same.
Ryan definitely prepared for an anticipated metagame, and based on his results, found that metagame. As with most interactive decks in Modern, good lists have a lot to do with the tournament they're played in. We agree there, but I think you're selling Ryan short.
Just because you rolled over and died to UW and Merfolk does not mean Ryan would. There's the possibility that he's a much better player than you, and the possibility that he's much more experienced with his finely tuned list than you are with it (this one is hard to debate IMO). Obviously he didn't reinvent the wheel, but you hardly can when you're dealing in Delvers -- the good cards are already known, so successful innovation is about finding a mix that works. He did, and he deserves credit for that. He doesn't deserve your sarcasm and belittlement.
Also, I'm struggling to understand your bitter correlation between "spikes" and "netdeckers." Many spikes don't net deck, including me, and including Ryan, for the reason that it's just not a good way to win an event. And that's what spikes care about. The best players in the world often bring new decks and ideas to Modern because they work tirelessly to find and exploit holes in the metagame, or to improve existing archetypes with strokes of innovation. Would you not call these professional players "spikes?" To me, your comment implies that you're lumping all competitive players in with a small subset of inexperienced play-to-winners at your local.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Well, lets not assume people here haven't done any homework before they express opinions, shall we?
If in doubt as to whether the list has been tested, just ask. As it stands, any experienced player would be able to tell at a glance if a list would work in their own metas. 4 probes? Naw, my meta has 2 burn decks. Thing in the ice? Pretty bad against merfolk with their harbingers. Snares? Does piss all against Path to Exile and Oblivion Rings from Emeria control. If there are very few control decks in your meta, 4 SB slots for AV is complete insanity, an utter waste of slots.
So I wouldn't even fault a person for saying they think the list would work better if -X +Y. Because what you're actually seeing is through another lens into another plane (meta). They don't have to take Ryan's list and test it against their meta if they have the common sense and know how. Its not a matter of confirming formed opinions. Its a matter of seeing through different lenses shaped by different metas.
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I can't say I admire the spirit in spikes, either. They're like a bunch of close-minded netdeckers at best... I would be infracted if I described worst.
I'm afraid i still dont get why you're upset. how do we express appreciation for Ryan Overturf's great work? Is he even here to receive said gratitude and adoration?
He made a list, went 56th at his invitation, went up to 11 fetches from 10 and dropped fastlands, added AV to his SB being the biggest change, and went 5th.
Does that mean his list is godly? No, it means the general direction is suited for the metagame, taking out factors like bad luck and bad pairings. I did play his list as-is, I basically rolled over and died to Emeria Control and merfolk. Snares become amazingly dead against caverns and vials. the 4 Terminates help until a master of waves arrives. Snaring seas is great game 1 but they don't keep those in.
in the end, I had to modify my list to cater for my own meta. I believe the others in here will have to do the same.
Ryan definitely prepared for an anticipated metagame, and based on his results, found that metagame. As with most interactive decks in Modern, good lists have a lot to do with the tournament they're played in. We agree there, but I think you're selling Ryan short.
Just because you rolled over and died to UW and Merfolk does not mean Ryan would. There's the possibility that he's a much better player than you, and the possibility that he's much more experienced with his finely tuned list than you are with it (this one is hard to debate IMO). Obviously he didn't reinvent the wheel, but you hardly can when you're dealing in Delvers -- the good cards are already known, so successful innovation is about finding a mix that works. He did, and he deserves credit for that. He doesn't deserve your sarcasm and belittlement.
Also, I'm struggling to understand your bitter correlation between "spikes" and "netdeckers." Many spikes don't net deck, including me, and including Ryan, for the reason that it's just not a good way to win an event. And that's what spikes care about. The best players in the world often bring new decks and ideas to Modern because they work tirelessly to find and exploit holes in the metagame, or to improve existing archetypes with strokes of innovation. Would you not call these professional players "spikes?" To me, your comment implies that you're lumping all competitive players in with a small subset of inexperienced play-to-winners at your local.
perhaps I should have specified, i referred to the typical keyboard warrior (the vast majority) in r/spikes (the reddit forum). not literally the spikes in MTG aka people who play to win. (i have edited the original sentence to reflect this clearly)
I stand by what I said about the list, and I am confident in my ability to assess cards and play Magic. So your attacks there aren't going to have an effect.
I do however take GREAT offense at your statement that I dished out "sarcasm and belittlement". I dished out neither, and I challenge you to either pick out what you said I did, or apologize.
Yeah, I'm also failing to see any "sarcasm or belittlement."
If you paid attention at all to what was actually being said, you'd see we HAVE been giving him credit. I agree with everything MarcWizard said, it's all about different metas through others eyes. Magic is a community, and we all contribute ideas and experiences to broaden knowledge in general. If a card is good for one person, it may not be for another, or not the same number of copies. That doesn't make them wrong, they're in a different place. Maybe if you were there, you'd agree with them. Your aggressive attacks and assumptions are not appreciated.
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uhm, one difference here is that people like jordan (ashtonkutcher) and me are not preparing for a local metagame but for MTGO and/or pptqs, gps, scg opens and the like. so, for example, i dont give a shoot about emeria control. the three times i stumbled into it online wont change this.
which ironically proves my point.
Wherever you go, especially an SCG Open, there will be a local metagame there, and it will not be completely the same as the last one. The metagame changes wherever you go, and changes after an Open as well.
And not everyone here is you guys, not everyone is trying to go the Pro Tour or win an Open. A good number of people are playing locally. Don't expect every single magic player you encounter to be a tournament spike, and don't talk down to one's that aren't. Not everyone has to be the same.
You have a metagame that YOU'RE preparing for. Everyone else has a different metagame THEY'RE preparing for. This doesn't make them wrong, nor does it mean you're simply right. If the ideas you see don't work in YOU'RE metagame, feel free to not use them. But don't talk down to people who aren't spikes like you.
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EDH U Jace High Tide U G Yisan Elfball G UBR Marchesa UBR
Psychic Rebuttal
Yea, we don't have Leyline of Sanctity available to us, but this comes pretty close. From the SB, this could come in for black based dicard, "IOK me? I IOK you!". It's a 1 card 12 point life swing if you counter a Lightning Helix aimed at our face. Kommand to retrieve your Goyf and target me for discard? I got bad news for you. Spell Mastery is easy peasy for us, which means just about any spell thrown at our face, we'll be able to counter it- and then throw it right back at them.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Redirect is 99% times better. You should have seen the face of Grixis Control player, when I drew 3 cards with his Ancestral Vision It's also great and unexpected SB card against Jund/Junk and Burn.
Buying it. Why isn't it seeing modern play? It has SO many applications.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
OK, so what's our ideal curve? Turn 1 Delver, of course. Turn 2...what are we wanting to do? Our options:1)TScour into Tas if we had two fetches. 2) Hold up counterspells. 3) Cantrip/discard spell any two. 4) Kill opponents one/two drop. In my version: 5) Play Jace. 6) Rise/Fall, they killed delver get it back bounce theirs, or discard 2. Then possibly 7) Hold up Izzet Charm. Counter a 2-3 drop, or kill their creature, or if neither fix your hand eot.
If we're holding up counterspells on 2 cuz we want delver on 1, then 2 cost counters are what we're gonna be using. Countersquall is both aggressive, to close faster, or defensive, to stop a threat or kill spell or combo card. Jace is a house vs control, and great everywhere else, as a follow-up to delver. Two threats, hand fixing, CA. Demands 2 immediate removal spells. Keeps tempo in our favor. Izzet charm; what if they don't play anything we can counter??? We wasted a turn doing nothing. Izzet charm helps with this. It's instant speed, literally the 4 things we want to do most: Counter spells, kill creatures, draw cards, and fill the grave. Perfect to hold up turn 2 if we don't play a second threat.
If we're going for options on turn 2, then I think 2 cost cards are where we need to be for that turn. Threats are 1, answers are 2, turn 3 we can then begin to do both, and even turn 2 in a decent amount of cases. Everywhere on the curve we have instants and sorcery speed cards both, and the instants are very versatile. I think a few more 2 costs is fine, especially with doing everything it does for us, which is everything.
@Johnny_Tempel
That's exactly what I did, more negates/dispels, Spellskites, less Links. It failed, badly. You draw all those vs Burn's creature-based draws, you just lose horribly. That's exactly what happened to me tonight.
Invasive Surgery seems decent. What sorceries specifically do we need to extract all copies of? I can think of Scapeshift......... anything else?
Redirect seems like pretty good tech in the right meta. Bolt their own Eidolon, Terminate their own Tas, Ancestral Vision stealing, seems fun. I may give it a try in place of a couple counterspells board and see how it goes.
A thing I've learned tonight: Planeswalkers are an issue, Liliana of the Veil and Nahiri chief among them. And I got flooded even worse, 6 out of 6 games. Back to 18 land. Adding a Dreadbore in the spot. With Jace, it feels like I have 11 cantrips instead of 8, so that may be why I draw more land. Jace helped Tasigur beat a 5/6 goyf and live, aided by Grim Lavamancer to finish the goyf. Such teamwork lol.
UBR Grixis Delver UBR
EDH
U Jace High Tide U
G Yisan Elfball G
UBR Marchesa UBR
I brought in a Negate, Dispel, 2 Spellskite, a Vampiric Link, and an Anger of the Gods. I took out 2 Jace, Rise//Fall, probe, and both Thoughtseize. But yeah, Magic:the Gathering lol. Sometimes it just happens.
You know, I feel like Scapeshift is possibly our easiest matchup already. I have yet to lose to it, or even come close. RG Valakut is a different story though. I'm not worried about countering Stirrings. We need to be putting on the pressure at that stage of the game. Fighting Tron on its cantrips isn't where we want to fight them.
Considering the winning list from the Modern Open was Jeskai Nahiri Control, and 2 infect decks in the top 4, I think Dreadbore is going to be well positioned. That Nahiri deck is the real deal, I've lost to it twice already, 0-2 both times. Nahiri is so hard to deal with. Liliana of the Veil isn't very fun to sit across from either.
UBR Grixis Delver UBR
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U Jace High Tide U
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http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/417156#paper
Jund:
Scooze, terminate, goyf, confidant
Infect:
Blighted agent, spellskite
Abzan company:
Voice, scooze, anafenza, melira, spellskite, wall of roots
Affinity:
Arch bound ravager, steel overseer, vault skirge, cranial plating
Tron:
Spellskite, sylvan scrying
Burn:
Eidolon, Boros charm, atarkas command, searing blaze, helix, skullcrack
Junk:
Scooze, goyf, dromokas command
RUG Scapeshift:
Snap, Sakura, anticipate, explore, far seek, user charm, peer through the depths, remand, negate
Merfolk:
Spreading seas, harbinger, mater of the pearl trident, lord of Atlantis, silverfgill adept, chalice, negate
Jeskai control:
remand, snap, helix, mana leak, negate
Death and taxes:
Arbiter, skite, Thalia, sculler
Titanshift:
Sakura, explore, khalni, omen, skite
Kiki chord:
Lone missionary, qasali pridemage, scooze, spellskite, voice, wall of omens, wall of roots
2 of delver's worst match ups spell snare is key in (jund, burn)
Tron may still be a lost cause though...
Now THIS is an incredibly useful list, many thanks for putting this together.
Of the decks listed there, I feel the only bad matchups we have are Jeskai Control, Burn, DnT, and possibly Merfolk. I don't lose to Jund much, I'm going to venture a guess it's cuz Jace helps me grind and keep gas coming when we're both topdecking, like Jund wants to be.
The rest of the list I feel we can do fine against. Tron isn't particularly bad, stick an early beater and just go as fast as you can. Sometimes they topdeck back to back Worldbreakers and you just lose though, such is MTG lol.
For those 4 matchups, though, I think you may be on to something. DnT is probably the most miserable matchup I ever play. Thalia and Arbiter in particular. Snare targets.....
Eidolon just outright kills us if it lives. A huge portion of Jeskai Control's counterspells are 2. Resolved fatty can only be dealt with with Path. Hits nearly the entire Merfolk deck period. Scooze sucks to see resolve. Bob sucks to see resolve. Goyf can sometimes be an issue, if he gets to 5/6. Burning Tree Emissary chains. All the hyper aggressive decks have 2 cost payoff spells, and those can be very hard matchups. We shine in the mid game. Too fast pressure can put us in a bad spot very quick, but going too long we get ground out. Hedging for these two matchups may be a great call. We're naturally good vs other midrange decks, so why make them better at the expense of other matchups? I can see a point here......
Some other things that just outright lose us the game if they resolve: RIP. Chalice on 1.
Then the rest of our problem cards get hit with Terminate or Countersquall....
I recently went up to 3 terminate 1 Dreadbore 1 Murderous Cut. The 3 terminate instead of 2 has been wonderful, just wonderful.
Mana leak/Remand I still have issues with, though. Deprive is great. A couple leak/remand maybe, but 4 leak I feel is far too many.
OK, maybe he has something here. I'll start testing 3 copies of Snare and see how much it really does.
UBR Grixis Delver UBR
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U Jace High Tide U
G Yisan Elfball G
UBR Marchesa UBR
Oh, I'd never cut Dispel or Countersquall for it. Countersquall and Terminate together answer most everything. But a couple may not be terrible.
Yes, I run the Dreadbore and Cut main. Probably gonna change the cut to another Dreadbore. Nahiri is just too big of a problem. And I'm thinking the Nahiri deck, and Kikki-Chord with Nahiri, will be much more popular now, and Snare is really good vs both those decks.
JVP vs Snap
OK, they're not just strictly interchangeable. They each fit a different playstyle and some card choices are better for each one. Snap is better with more counterspells, while Jace gets a bigger benefit from proactive spells that can react if necessary. Jace plays more aggressively, you want him turn 2 right after a Delver, so you don't have counterspells for that turn, so that's why I like a few extra kill spells. I like sticking it to my opponent every chance I can, keep the pressure on, keep threats coming, and force THEM to react to ME.
Jace has definitely won me games that Snap had no hope of winning. When he takes a Bolt off of your Delver, then Delver swings 2-3 times after that, you're better off than if you had a Snap. Snap will never eat a Path for Tasigur /Angler, but any savvy opponent will Path Jace instead, letting your fatty go to town on their life. Topdecking vs Control, a single Jace got me back 5 spells, which looped Delvers and that Jace for Kommand value chains. I didn't even have 5 mana to Snap a Kommand, and getting back 1 spell wouldn't have been nearly enough. Getting back more threats with Jace totally balances losing a 2/1 tiny body. Also, man, the hand fixing!!! Helps hit land drops, finds action, helps when flooding out, turns specific dead cards into real ones. It's like... When you play him, you Snapped back a cantrip, then when you flip him you have 2 Snaps again now. And his +1 isn't bad either. Locked down a Thalia (snap wouldn't have done a thing), helped me beat a Goyf in combat, and opposing a Jace it just totally locked down my Delver. Hand fixing. Pseudo-kill spell. Combat helper. Alternative win con. Grinds better. The number of games I have won because of Jace is higher than the number of games I've lost due to having to flip to get value.
The floor on Jace is higher than the floor on Snap. At minimum, Jace eats removal. That's now one less spell you have to counter or Snap-counter to save a fatty, cuz Jace saved the fatty. At minimum, Snap can't attack cuz of opposing creatures, and you have no spells to get back. Vs RIP, Snap is hilariously bad. Jace still draws me cards. I feel like the consistency Jace gives me, and the fact he's another removal target, and the fact that he can possibly get back more spells, is more mana efficient, and is far more versatile, makes him better than Snap for DELVER decks, at least the way I play delver decks.
UBR Grixis Delver UBR
EDH
U Jace High Tide U
G Yisan Elfball G
UBR Marchesa UBR
I'll just say one thing
Don't assume people arbitrarily change things. Some do, yes, but if you read the thread, you'll see everything has been tested, all ideas are tested first.
If you watched the Open this weekend (it's up on YouTube), even Cedric and Patrick said Dreadbore MIGHT BECOME a thing. It wasn't before for a reason. It has a reason now.
If you looked at all at ANY of my other posts, you'd see I've done extensive testing and playing with JVP, for almost a year now.
Discard has won me games I'd have lost otherwise. Don't write it off so quickly.
I and another just said earlier Spell Snare has its merits.
Don't arbitrarily write off suggestions and ideas without testing them at all.
Rant over.
I was gonna try that switch post board too, it looked really good on camera.
UBR Grixis Delver UBR
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U Jace High Tide U
G Yisan Elfball G
UBR Marchesa UBR
has anyone here given you the impression they don't playtest cards?
There are always reasons a card wasn't played, but it doesn't mean there will never be reasons to play it.
When Planeswalkers become more dangerous than Manlands, there's a reason to play Dreadbore.
When Jace VP rotates out of standard stapledom, its price will tumble.
Discard is played maindeck in many lists, including Michael Major's.
We've already pointed out tonnes of reasons to play spell snare, as well as tonnes not to.
What the heck is your rant about in the first place? Are we making you angry by talking excitedly about the cards we want to try out? We're sorry then. Cool your head.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I'm afraid i still dont get why you're upset. how do we express appreciation for Ryan Overturf's great work? Is he even here to receive said gratitude and adoration?
He made a list, went 56th at his invitation, went up to 11 fetches from 10 and dropped fastlands, added AV to his SB being the biggest change, and went 5th.
Does that mean his list is godly? No, it means the general direction is suited for the metagame, taking out factors like bad luck and bad pairings. I did play his list as-is, I basically rolled over and died to Emeria Control and merfolk. Snares become amazingly dead against caverns and vials. the 4 Terminates help until a master of waves arrives. Snaring seas is great game 1 but they don't keep those in.
in the end, I had to modify my list to cater for my own meta. I believe the others in here will have to do the same.
And yes, we are celebrating Ryan's achievement. But its one thing to hail a good list for the event meta and another to netdeck it and expect it to perform at the same level in another environment. I think the best thing we can do for Ryan is to take his creation to the next level, which undoubtedly he is already doing as we speak.
And to do that, it means tweaking, with cards with already use with success, or playtesting it with new tech. Don't be so upset.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I played his list, with 4 cards changed for the meta I play in. 4 cards, that's it. I have to say, it was pretty damn good. I just won two matches with it I think I may have lost before, or at least had a harder time with.
When a list does well, we do test it. Tuned for the meta we're in, usually. The rest, is just that, ideas. Ideas to test to see if they're good or not.
I just played 3 snare, 3 terminate, 2 leak, 2 remand. Only other change was no Pillar of Flame. Bad in my meta. Honestly, it was great. I can see the reasons for all his choices. Boarding out Delvers into Ancestral Visions in grindy matchups was just genius, it just wrecked Jund. Snare was awesome, didn't always hit, but when it did (which was pretty often) it solved a gigantic issue. Vs Jund, again, it was game changing.
After TESTING all his ideas, I'm in agreement. A few (3-4) cards for meta choices is perfectly fine.
Other ideas I'm TESTING:
Dreadbore
Izzet Charm
Dreadbore has actually been very good, just 1 of. It got an otherwise unkillable Liliana of the Veil, and just another piece of removal was always nice to have.
Izzet Charm has yet to be bad for me. I'm just trying 2. It has helped kill a Goyf, countered a CoCo, killed a Bob, killed a Thalia, countered a Nahiri, and put enough in my grave to play a Tas for 1 when I needed to cuz I needed to hold open the rest of my mana. It also cycled away two lands and got me Angler which killed them and Terminate, to kill the Knight of the Reliquary I was facing down. It's floor being "loot 2" isn't bad, and another cheap aggressive creature kill spell is nice. Maybe two more Leak is still better, I'm still testing.
Overturf's list is great, Spell Snare has been great. I like what he's done, and I love his sideboard plan.
UBR Grixis Delver UBR
EDH
U Jace High Tide U
G Yisan Elfball G
UBR Marchesa UBR
Just because you rolled over and died to UW and Merfolk does not mean Ryan would. There's the possibility that he's a much better player than you, and the possibility that he's much more experienced with his finely tuned list than you are with it (this one is hard to debate IMO). Obviously he didn't reinvent the wheel, but you hardly can when you're dealing in Delvers -- the good cards are already known, so successful innovation is about finding a mix that works. He did, and he deserves credit for that. He doesn't deserve your sarcasm and belittlement.
Also, I'm struggling to understand your bitter correlation between "spikes" and "netdeckers." Many spikes don't net deck, including me, and including Ryan, for the reason that it's just not a good way to win an event. And that's what spikes care about. The best players in the world often bring new decks and ideas to Modern because they work tirelessly to find and exploit holes in the metagame, or to improve existing archetypes with strokes of innovation. Would you not call these professional players "spikes?" To me, your comment implies that you're lumping all competitive players in with a small subset of inexperienced play-to-winners at your local.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
If in doubt as to whether the list has been tested, just ask. As it stands, any experienced player would be able to tell at a glance if a list would work in their own metas. 4 probes? Naw, my meta has 2 burn decks. Thing in the ice? Pretty bad against merfolk with their harbingers. Snares? Does piss all against Path to Exile and Oblivion Rings from Emeria control. If there are very few control decks in your meta, 4 SB slots for AV is complete insanity, an utter waste of slots.
So I wouldn't even fault a person for saying they think the list would work better if -X +Y. Because what you're actually seeing is through another lens into another plane (meta). They don't have to take Ryan's list and test it against their meta if they have the common sense and know how. Its not a matter of confirming formed opinions. Its a matter of seeing through different lenses shaped by different metas.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
perhaps I should have specified, i referred to the typical keyboard warrior (the vast majority) in r/spikes (the reddit forum). not literally the spikes in MTG aka people who play to win. (i have edited the original sentence to reflect this clearly)
I stand by what I said about the list, and I am confident in my ability to assess cards and play Magic. So your attacks there aren't going to have an effect.
I do however take GREAT offense at your statement that I dished out "sarcasm and belittlement". I dished out neither, and I challenge you to either pick out what you said I did, or apologize.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
If you paid attention at all to what was actually being said, you'd see we HAVE been giving him credit. I agree with everything MarcWizard said, it's all about different metas through others eyes. Magic is a community, and we all contribute ideas and experiences to broaden knowledge in general. If a card is good for one person, it may not be for another, or not the same number of copies. That doesn't make them wrong, they're in a different place. Maybe if you were there, you'd agree with them. Your aggressive attacks and assumptions are not appreciated.
UBR Grixis Delver UBR
EDH
U Jace High Tide U
G Yisan Elfball G
UBR Marchesa UBR
Wherever you go, especially an SCG Open, there will be a local metagame there, and it will not be completely the same as the last one. The metagame changes wherever you go, and changes after an Open as well.
And not everyone here is you guys, not everyone is trying to go the Pro Tour or win an Open. A good number of people are playing locally. Don't expect every single magic player you encounter to be a tournament spike, and don't talk down to one's that aren't. Not everyone has to be the same.
You have a metagame that YOU'RE preparing for. Everyone else has a different metagame THEY'RE preparing for. This doesn't make them wrong, nor does it mean you're simply right. If the ideas you see don't work in YOU'RE metagame, feel free to not use them. But don't talk down to people who aren't spikes like you.
UBR Grixis Delver UBR
EDH
U Jace High Tide U
G Yisan Elfball G
UBR Marchesa UBR
NOW i'm picking up on belittlement.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR