I was thinking the exact same thing about a Lilly shell, and possibly include some Bloodghasts since they fit the strategy. Running Bloodghasts means we can turn him on via Scour engine so that he may go over grindy deck threats like Tas and Goyf. It's weak to graveyard hate but could be strong in our engine. Against aggro just use them for their value, against slower decks we have a late tame threat that can get out if hand. I can see 3/3/3 Jace/Snap/Bloodghast (or 3/4/2), 2x Tas, 2x Kal. The rest of the deck would be business as usual.
Bloodghast alongside Kal seems very important especially in aggressive strategies where getting him to 5 power lifelinking as fast as possible is very important to our chances of victory. The potential for that deck is very high at the very least the strategy seems very fun to play. I'm looking at a 4/3/3 split on Jace, snap, and ghast. I think the rest would be less business as usual with 2-3 copies of Liliana and probably up to 6 IOK-Thoughtseize since Liliana and counters are so awkward probably just having 2 leak mainboard plus some dispel in board. The extra disruption is why Jace should probably remain at 4 IMO. I wish he had flying as the evasion would be good against bigger creatures and against soul decks.
As for the 1 painful truths I love it and scour is less important than our other cantrips
I'm really liking the idea of bloodghast + kal for max value. I'm gonna have to try this out when I get around to testing Kalitas this weekend.
Look at the card. Now back to Jace. Now back to that card, now back to Jace! Sadly, it isn't Jace, but if it stopped being a junk rare and became relevant, it could act like it's Jace. Crack some Worldwake. What do you have? You have a Jace, the card you wish this card could be like. Look again. THE CARD IS NOW A $75 BILL. Anything possible when you play Magic with Jace and not junk rares. This is probably spam.
This is little different than other people are doing, but it has enough fetches to get a couple basics early. If you're against burn or Aggro match ups the sunken hollow and smoldering marsh do wonders (surprised I'm not seeing these in more lists). If you go against choke, you at least have 4 blue sources that skirt it. It's possible you want a second island in the deck so you can snapcaster blue spells with blood moon in play but I haven't been prioritizing that.
I'm planning on taking this deck to the upcoming GP, and therefore am looking to prepare as much as possible. What matchups would you say I should be sure to get reps in with? I currently have GR Tron, Affinity, Jund, Amulet Bloom, Merfolk, Storm, Ad Naueseum, and Dredgevine proxied up, anything really important I am missing here? Could probably add another 2-3 decks into the gauntlet before the GP.
Thanks in advance!
Edit: may as well post my list here just to be thorough, and in case there are any suggestions on better mb/sb cards. Of course, the lack of Tarns is a budget thing, but I'll be borrowing some for the GP. Most of the list is stock, not sure on 22 or 23 lands, the Izzet Charm, the Electrolyze, and running both GffT and Cut (May just want one, might want one to be Dismember, might want the Tribute mb instead of side, just not sure on these yet). Also will probably move to a 3/1 split on IoK/TS
You would probably be better off with go for the throat or dismember over murderous cut. You're using the graveyard a lot, so it can conflict (although it's usually not that big of a deal), and a remanded murderous cut makes you feel like shxt lol. This deck has trouble closing out, so I would really add an extra copy of PKN and Snap. You need to be able to exert as much pressure as possible when the opportunity presents itself, and start holding back your hand a bit once you've assumed control. I think you can make space with izzet charm and either a black removal or the electrolyze.
I'd also get some matches in against Zoo and Abzan if you're new-ish to the deck. The aggro/burn strategy can be a bxtch to handle, especially if they turn into a burn Deck game 2 to dead some of our removal; lingering souls is a pain too, but PKN shuts that down.
I'd also stick to 23 lands if you're running Lilly.
You might want EE over a Pyro or Anger because it handles cards we have trouble with. Also, I'd try to really fit that 4th piece of land hate in somewhere (Tron/Scapeshift/Amulet are not matches you want to give away right now).
I'm trying to decide between a grixis twin list with a more stable manabase or blue June for a medium sized event tomorrow. I'm leaning toward the proactive blue jund deck since it's better positioned against all the twin, land-combo, and bgx (and those decks are prepping against twin); so I think preparing a deck that is favorable against the grindy ones, and tuning it against aggro and land-combo might be what I want to do. (I'll probably change my mind last min tho lol).
I've definitely noticed my lack of being able to close up a game, so the 2nd PNK will go straight in. Not sure if I can source a Snap before the tourney, so if not maybe I'll try an Angler or Lavaman.
Also good call on the LD. I think 4 Molten Rain is probably too much, so Fulminator seems like the best call. Kinda scared to try to run Blood Moon, but I haven't tried it yet, maybe its worth the slot?
Yeah, removing thought scour is a huge mistake, but better to learn from mistakes firsthand. There will undoubtedly be someone willing to explain the many reasons for their necessity if it is still unclear to you after trying leaks in their place.
Can I get away with 3 Scours or is it really preferable to have 4?
I have been running 3 thought scours since early november and have not been disappointed.
just picked up the cards for this deck, and i gotta say i LOVE this version of grixis compared to chapin's list with cryptic. just had a few questions. first of all, i see people cutting a fourth snapcaster to make room for 2 PKN. i have a hard time wrapping my head around this and it feels really incorrect to me. is playing the full four just bad? also, i see people are adding mana leak to the main. is there any reason why? the deck seems to run really well without them. (i'm playing burkhart's list from philly)
just picked up the cards for this deck, and i gotta say i LOVE this version of grixis compared to chapin's list with cryptic. just had a few questions. first of all, i see people cutting a fourth snapcaster to make room for 2 PKN. i have a hard time wrapping my head around this and it feels really incorrect to me. is playing the full four just bad? also, i see people are adding mana leak to the main. is there any reason why? the deck seems to run really well without them. (i'm playing burkhart's list from philly)
PKN has become something of a Lingering Souls for red, especially when the same copy is cast multiple times. Since you're running the Abbot list, it's not advisable to run it just because of its mana cost. You'd more likely get away with 2 Young Pyromancer if you felt the need to add a token aspect to the build. But I cut Abbot a while ago and replaced the 3 with 2 PNK and 1 Gurmag Angler. Cutting a Snapcaster for a more aggressive and versatile board-controller just seems to even the deck out a bit more, especially when you already run 4 Jaces.
actually i'm on burkhart's list from gp pittsburgh, and i was curious as to why more recent lists shaved a snapcaster and added some mana leaks to the main as the deck ran fine without the counters in the main
Jace is your turn 2 play, and snap is the turn 3+ play. The 4th Snap has felt clunky to people because they draw it too early, but you run 4 anyway bc the effect is too strong. Many people feel the first Jace is arguably better than the 4th Snap because you can play it turn 2 and get your snap effects. I stayed on a 4 snaps/3 Jace split though because I like having the extra beats more than the extra filtering and t2 play.
People run leaks as a game 1 catch all against cards we can't handle efficiently. Abbot and Lilly lists moved people off of leaks and towards tseize and echoing truth out the side, but it wasn't much of an improvement. Abbot and Lilly were dropped but people stayed on discard and eventually moved back to using leak bc they felt some counter magic was necessary. It can be bad late game but Jace can filter it away, so it's cool.
That's the gist of it, to save you from reading hundreds of pages on both threads lol.
I really want to play Bitterblossomin this deck. Any ideas how to incorporate it into the deck with out changing the gameplan to much?
Bitterblossom is a fine sideboard card for all the grindy matches. I don't think it has a place in the mainboard though.
I refuse to accept that. Especially from a guy with BB as there profile pic hahaha XD. We should at least consider trying, the amount of value in that card is amazing.
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I really want to play Bitterblossomin this deck. Any ideas how to incorporate it into the deck with out changing the gameplan to much?
Bitterblossom is a fine sideboard card for all the grindy matches. I don't think it has a place in the mainboard though.
I refuse to accept that. Especially from a guy with BB as there profile pic hahaha XD. We should at least consider trying, the amount of value in that card is amazing.
Sure it has a lot of value, however the life loss from it can be too much late game and there are a couple of matches where you just don't want to see it (linear/combo decks). Don't forget that we already hurt ourselves plenty w/ our mana base.
Look at the card. Now back to Jace. Now back to that card, now back to Jace! Sadly, it isn't Jace, but if it stopped being a junk rare and became relevant, it could act like it's Jace. Crack some Worldwake. What do you have? You have a Jace, the card you wish this card could be like. Look again. THE CARD IS NOW A $75 BILL. Anything possible when you play Magic with Jace and not junk rares. This is probably spam.
Yea I figured as much with the whole life lose. But what if we added Suffer the Past or some other type of value life gain. Idk just ideas, I really like BB and besides Tokens/Faires which inst fun to play IMHO I think Blue Jund is a prefect shell for it.
I really want to play Bitterblossomin this deck. Any ideas how to incorporate it into the deck with out changing the gameplan to much?
Bitterblossom is a fine sideboard card for all the grindy matches. I don't think it has a place in the mainboard though.
I refuse to accept that. Especially from a guy with BB as there profile pic hahaha XD. We should at least consider trying, the amount of value in that card is amazing.
'Hahahaha, well, yeah in my experience, life loss is just too much for us to handle. Hell, BB is painful even in faeries some times. Imagine in a deck with 9 fetchlands, 4 shocks and no profitable way to get life back.
The problem is that BB generates a ton of value against midrange/control decks where it has the time to generate some value. Current metagem doesn't support that style of play.
Also keep in mind that our 2 drop slot is already pretty clogged and we, almost always, want to have a T2 jace on the battlefield. BB competes too much with that.
The biggest criticism I hear from Grixis Mid is that it can get ran over from especially aggressive starts and that it lacks the pressure to close out the game quickly against combo decks or ramp. By shifting your deck towards a Delver approach, you have trouble against aggro and you find yourself asking 'why am I playing a clock that gets one-for-one'd by Bolt in my value deck'? Shaun McClaren's UR Pyromancer list from World's deck took full advantage of a hole in Modern, it was a low land count aggro control deck that could go underneath slower decks in the format while still packing plenty of disruption and removal to handle aggressive strategies.
This why I feel a halfway approach between Delver and the en vogue Gerry T Grixis is the best way to presently play this shell. Building my RUG Twin list like this left me feeling like I never was losing to any one strategy, and transitioning from aggro to control depending on the matchup was natural given that's what the deck is built to do.
Young Pyromancer is the perfect threat for this style of strategy. Against combo, it's a win condition that you play early and quickly win by speeding up your clock every time you interact. Against aggro, it's comparable to Bitterblossom in that it that pumps out chump blockers to keep your life total high, and once you've turned the corner you have a hoard of tokens to end the game quickly before you can get burned out. And then against anything fair, Young Pyromancer is a great threat to play in the midgame when you've adequately disrupted the opponent and have the countermagic to protect it, or just a couple spells to ensure card advantage.
The big decision I see is Bob or Tasigur? Bob is not at all common in Grixis, but with K Command topping the curve and an average CMC of 1.05, I've preferred how Bob always comes down on turn 2, I don't have to play Thought Scour, and I'm drawing cards starting on turn 3 and without pumping mana into it.
Below is the list I'm currently comfortable with. If you're bored with your current iteration or need an excuse to buy Bobs, I suggest you try it out.
If you search BB on the other grix control thread you can read on all the past testing (though in a slightly diff context), but PKN replaced it as an option is pretty much what happened.
Well, given that my Grixis Twin deck just got banned and I've been looking to get into this deck for a while, now seems like as good a time as any to start! My main consideration right now is the new jace. Is he really the bread and butter of this deck or is there a different way to focus this deck so that he isn't as necessary? Either way I'll be testing some proxies out.
I'm predicting a massive upswing in both tron and hyperlinear decks, which may leave this deck in a precarious position if it doesn't tune well towards super aggressive decks or tron.
Good luck with the deck, gentlemen. It looks like a lot of fun!
Whelp I'm back after what ended up being a short trip to the grixis twin world. Looking at the way lists are going to be moving and where the meta is shifting I'm not sure the current iteration of this deck is going to really work. I like the idea of somewhere in the middle of this and grixis delver leaning heavily on pyromancers for both early aggro and early defense depending on what you are up against. I'm going to go back to the drawing board and see what I can make.
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I'm really liking the idea of bloodghast + kal for max value. I'm gonna have to try this out when I get around to testing Kalitas this weekend.
URURxUR
UWUWxUW
This is little different than other people are doing, but it has enough fetches to get a couple basics early. If you're against burn or Aggro match ups the sunken hollow and smoldering marsh do wonders (surprised I'm not seeing these in more lists). If you go against choke, you at least have 4 blue sources that skirt it. It's possible you want a second island in the deck so you can snapcaster blue spells with blood moon in play but I haven't been prioritizing that.
4 polluted delta
4 scalding tarn
4 bloodstained mire
1 swamp
1 mountain
1 island
1 steam vents
1 watery grave
1 sunken hollow
1 smoldering marsh
2 sulfur falls
2 creeping tar pit
Thanks in advance!
Edit: may as well post my list here just to be thorough, and in case there are any suggestions on better mb/sb cards. Of course, the lack of Tarns is a budget thing, but I'll be borrowing some for the GP. Most of the list is stock, not sure on 22 or 23 lands, the Izzet Charm, the Electrolyze, and running both GffT and Cut (May just want one, might want one to be Dismember, might want the Tribute mb instead of side, just not sure on these yet). Also will probably move to a 3/1 split on IoK/TS
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Spells (28)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Terminate
1 Go for the Throat
1 Murderous Cut
1 Izzet Charm
3 Kolaghan's Command
1 Electrolyze
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Rise//Fall
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Drowned Catacomb
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Dispel
1 Pyroclasm
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Mulldrifter
1 Keranos, God of Storms
3 Molten Rain
1 Tribute to Hunger
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Vandalblast
I'd also get some matches in against Zoo and Abzan if you're new-ish to the deck. The aggro/burn strategy can be a bxtch to handle, especially if they turn into a burn Deck game 2 to dead some of our removal; lingering souls is a pain too, but PKN shuts that down.
I'd also stick to 23 lands if you're running Lilly.
You might want EE over a Pyro or Anger because it handles cards we have trouble with. Also, I'd try to really fit that 4th piece of land hate in somewhere (Tron/Scapeshift/Amulet are not matches you want to give away right now).
I'm trying to decide between a grixis twin list with a more stable manabase or blue June for a medium sized event tomorrow. I'm leaning toward the proactive blue jund deck since it's better positioned against all the twin, land-combo, and bgx (and those decks are prepping against twin); so I think preparing a deck that is favorable against the grindy ones, and tuning it against aggro and land-combo might be what I want to do. (I'll probably change my mind last min tho lol).
Good luck! Let us know how it goes.
I've definitely noticed my lack of being able to close up a game, so the 2nd PNK will go straight in. Not sure if I can source a Snap before the tourney, so if not maybe I'll try an Angler or Lavaman.
Also good call on the LD. I think 4 Molten Rain is probably too much, so Fulminator seems like the best call. Kinda scared to try to run Blood Moon, but I haven't tried it yet, maybe its worth the slot?
Thanks, really appreciate the help.
I have been running 3 thought scours since early november and have not been disappointed.
PKN has become something of a Lingering Souls for red, especially when the same copy is cast multiple times. Since you're running the Abbot list, it's not advisable to run it just because of its mana cost. You'd more likely get away with 2 Young Pyromancer if you felt the need to add a token aspect to the build. But I cut Abbot a while ago and replaced the 3 with 2 PNK and 1 Gurmag Angler. Cutting a Snapcaster for a more aggressive and versatile board-controller just seems to even the deck out a bit more, especially when you already run 4 Jaces.
People run leaks as a game 1 catch all against cards we can't handle efficiently. Abbot and Lilly lists moved people off of leaks and towards tseize and echoing truth out the side, but it wasn't much of an improvement. Abbot and Lilly were dropped but people stayed on discard and eventually moved back to using leak bc they felt some counter magic was necessary. It can be bad late game but Jace can filter it away, so it's cool.
That's the gist of it, to save you from reading hundreds of pages on both threads lol.
Modern Only
Currently Running:
BG Midrange
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I refuse to accept that. Especially from a guy with BB as there profile pic hahaha XD. We should at least consider trying, the amount of value in that card is amazing.
Modern Only
Currently Running:
BG Midrange
Sure it has a lot of value, however the life loss from it can be too much late game and there are a couple of matches where you just don't want to see it (linear/combo decks). Don't forget that we already hurt ourselves plenty w/ our mana base.
URURxUR
UWUWxUW
Modern Only
Currently Running:
BG Midrange
The problem is that BB generates a ton of value against midrange/control decks where it has the time to generate some value. Current metagem doesn't support that style of play.
Also keep in mind that our 2 drop slot is already pretty clogged and we, almost always, want to have a T2 jace on the battlefield. BB competes too much with that.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
This why I feel a halfway approach between Delver and the en vogue Gerry T Grixis is the best way to presently play this shell. Building my RUG Twin list like this left me feeling like I never was losing to any one strategy, and transitioning from aggro to control depending on the matchup was natural given that's what the deck is built to do.
Young Pyromancer is the perfect threat for this style of strategy. Against combo, it's a win condition that you play early and quickly win by speeding up your clock every time you interact. Against aggro, it's comparable to Bitterblossom in that it that pumps out chump blockers to keep your life total high, and once you've turned the corner you have a hoard of tokens to end the game quickly before you can get burned out. And then against anything fair, Young Pyromancer is a great threat to play in the midgame when you've adequately disrupted the opponent and have the countermagic to protect it, or just a couple spells to ensure card advantage.
The big decision I see is Bob or Tasigur? Bob is not at all common in Grixis, but with K Command topping the curve and an average CMC of 1.05, I've preferred how Bob always comes down on turn 2, I don't have to play Thought Scour, and I'm drawing cards starting on turn 3 and without pumping mana into it.
Below is the list I'm currently comfortable with. If you're bored with your current iteration or need an excuse to buy Bobs, I suggest you try it out.
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Dark Confidant
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Snapcaster Mage
Sorceries (10)
1 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
Instants (17)
1 Dispel
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
2 Remand
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
3 Kolaghan's Command
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Vandalblast
1 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
1 Negate
1 Tribute to Hunger
3 Molten Rain
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Ghost Quarter
I'm predicting a massive upswing in both tron and hyperlinear decks, which may leave this deck in a precarious position if it doesn't tune well towards super aggressive decks or tron.
Good luck with the deck, gentlemen. It looks like a lot of fun!